Was anyone else disappointed with the debate tonight?

[ResistTheCoup]

No, I don't mean Sharpton, he was as right on as ever. And Kucinich was impressive, as usual. I only caught the last 45 minutes or so - so maybe I missed something fantastic but somehow I doubt it.

As you can tell by my avatar I was/am an avid Clark supporter. With Clark I was so happy to have a candidate that I was excited about voting for. That I was proud of. Now that the General has dropped out (thanks DNC for disenfranchising me for the primary) he's thrown his support to Kerry and I'm giving Kerry a lot of thought but I'm still having problems coming over. Don't get me wrong, whoever gets the nomination I'm voting for. I'm just upset that my vote won't even count in the primary since my candidate won't be on the ballot. My only choices now are to basically 'go-along-with-the-winner', make a protest or write-in vote, or not vote at all. I'm leaning toward the protest vote since it's a foregone conclusion who the winner will be.

Last summer Dean seemed like a good choice to me because of his outspokenness, but somehow he never quite clicked for me. If I had had to pick someone who's stands on the issues were closest to mine I would have had to go to with Kucinich but I never felt like he was electable (sorry, that's the way I felt). Kerry was a distant third for me, at best. While I think he's a good man he has never, ever inspired me. When I hear him talk all I hear is just, "Blah, blah, blah." No charisma. No passion. No conviction. My 81 year old aunt who's one of his constituents feels the same way. She has no enthusiasm either for Kerry (Dean is her man).

Then the General entered the race and I didn't have to compromise by picking the lesser of the evils. I had someone who represented my views, was electable, charismatic, etc., etc. Now I'm back to square one. Picking the lesser of the 'electable' 'evils'.

About 12 years ago I was on a trip back east and happened to catch Sen. Kerry on a local TV talk show while in my hotel room. He'd voted against the first Gulf War which made him a hero of mine because I was so distraught about that war. I'd had a couple of drinks at Happy Hour and felt comfortable enough to call in and ask my hero a question about the war and his feelings about the number of deaths in Iraq because of it. As luck would have it I actually got through on the show. I don't remember exactly what my question was but the gist of it was to ask if he thought that the war was worth the lives of over 100,000 Iraqis. He hemmed and hawed and basically said that he had no problem with that. I was flabbergasted. That was the last thing that I expected him to say. He didn't express any remorse. He just seemed to be going with the flow at the time. I was so disappointed in him then. And since then, especially with his vote for the IWR, he has yet to regain his stature for me.

So anyway, back to the debate. I saw the same Kerry tonight that I've always seen. Someone who can't say what he really thinks. He blathered on and on in response to the first question that I saw (Edwards even made some remark about how that was the longest non-answer he'd ever heard). The same question that Dennis K. knocked out of the park with his response in about one minute!

So I guess what I'm going to do is stick to my principles for the primary and vote for Kucinich and then be ABB for the general election. I'm not trying to get sympathy or have anyone talk me into voting for their candidate. I just wondered if anyone else felt the same way I do.

:shrug:

[Leilani]

1. I'm watching a replay of the debate right now

& it's boring. The excitement is gone.

For some reason this debate does not have an edge to it, IMO.

Wes is missed.

[LZ1234]

3. I feel the same way.

It's not the same without General Clark.

[revcarol]

2. Go see Kucinich in person if you can.

He's got charisma and knocks EVERY issue out of the park!!

You will know that your vote is not wasted in voting for such a fine man.

[Taeger]

4. More NAFTA BASHING

I want them to go apeshit wild on Free Trade. If they ask them what color their house is, they should respond that they free trade is evil and ... brown.

[corporatewhore]

11. see my post 10

[Lostnote03]

12. LMAO!!!!!

.....damned good observation

[KC21304]

5. You will have to forgive me, but I think it is possible you may

have a few things mixed up. The question that you first heard Kerry answer that you say he blathered on about was addressed only to Kerry and Edwards, so Kucinich couldn't have hit it out of the park. Also, after Edwards said that Kerry gave the longest non answer, he went on to say the same thing Kerry did, and even the audience noticed and laughed.

Is it possible that you also misunderstood Kerry's answer 12 years ago, being that you admit you don't remember your exact question ? Why did you expect Kerry to show remorse if he didn't vote for Gulf War I ? I can't believe he would say that the lives of 100,000 people meant nothing to him, I don't care who they were.

[DjTj]

7. Edwards' answer was not at all the same as Kerry's:

GILBERT: Let me turn to you, Senator Kerry, because you said your vote wasn't a vote for what the president ultimately did. But you did vote to give him the authority, so do you feel any degree, any degree of responsibility for the war and its costs and casualties?

KERRY: This is one of the reasons why I am so intent on beating George Bush and why I believe I will beat George Bush, because one of the lessons that I learned -- when I was an instrument of American foreign policy, I was that cutting-edge instrument. I carried that M- 16.

I know what it's like to try to choose between friend and foe in a foreign country when you're carrying out the policy of your nation.

KERRY: And I know what it's like when you lose the consent and the legitimacy of that war. And that is why I said specifically on the floor of the Senate that what I was voting for was the process the president promised.

There was a right way to do this and there was a wrong way to do it. And the president chose the wrong way because he turned his back on his own pledge to build a legitimate international coalition, to exhaust the remedies of the United Nations in the inspections and to go to war as a matter of last resort.

Last resort means something to me. Obviously, it doesn't mean something to this president. I think it means something to the American people.

And the great burden of the commander in chief is to be able to look into the eyes of any parent or loved one and say to them, "I did everything in my power to prevent the loss of your son and daughter, but we had to do what we had to do because of the imminency of the threat and the nature of our security. "

I don't think the president passes that test.

GILBERT: But what about you? I mean, let me repeat the question. Do you have any degree of responsibility having voted to give him the authority to go to war?

KERRY: The president had the authority to do what he was going to do without the vote of the United States Congress. President Clinton went to Kosovo without the Congress. President Clinton went to Haiti without the Congress.

That's why we have a War Powers Act. What we did was vote with one voice of the United States Congress for a process. And remember, until the Congress asserted itself, this president wasn't intending to go to the United Nations. In fact, it was Jim Baker and Brent Scowcroft and others and the Congress who got him to agree to a specific process. The process was to build a legitimate international coalition, go through the inspections process and go to war as a last resort.

He didn't do it. My regret is not the vote. It was appropriate to stand up to Saddam Hussein. There was a right way to do it, a wrong way to do it.

My regret is this president chose the wrong way, rushed to war, is now spending billions of American taxpayers' dollars that we didn't need to spend this way had he built a legitimate coalition, and has put our troops at greater risk.

GILBERT: You cast the same vote, Senator Edwards, is that the way you see it?

EDWARDS: That's the longest answer I ever heard to a yes or no question. The answer to your question is of course.

We all accept responsibility for what we did. I did what I believed was right. I took it very, very seriously.

I also said at the same time that it was critical when we got to this stage that America not be doing this alone. The president is doing it alone. And the result is what we see happening to our young men and women right now. We need to take a dramatic course. We will take a dramatic course.

Edwards took responsibility for the vote before criticizing Bush while Kerry deflected all the blame to Bush before mentioning that he doesn't regret the vote. In substance, that's not a big difference, but if you're going to be on the stump or on a stage with Bush, you better be able to answer that question without rambling on and on. There's no laughter in the transcript I see, but I think it either came after Edwards said it was the longest answer he ever heard or after the next sentence out of his mouth:

And by the way, Senator Kerry just said he will beat George Bush not so fast, John Kerry.

[lupita]

6. is there a link go watch the debate on line?

thanks!

[zwielicht]

13. www.wisconsindebate.com

http://www.wisconsindebate.com

[VOX]

14. Thanks for the link -- much appreciated! n/t

[newyawker99]

16. Hi zwielicht!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[tobius]

8. yes, very disappointed

I was hoping to see something more from Dean to show contrast with Kerry. This seems to be his last stand and was hoping to see more "debate" between the candidates, the bush sucks stuff is fine and everything but that has been at every debate.

My impression is that basically the remaining candidates have ceded the nomination to Kerry and are presenting a fairly united front.

Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.
Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865), letter to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton, July 18, 1864

[DIBL]

9. With Clark gone

Kucinich is the only remaining candidate that I can really get excited about. You just gotta love the guy for speaking out his mind! Kerry is a hard pill for me to swallow, but I will because 4 more years of Bush will spell certain disaster for this country.

[corporatewhore]

10. sharpton and dk only ones who made sense as usual but sharpton had an

excellent comment on nafta and slavery americans said slavery was justified because of the economic dependency and jefferson said slavery was bad and should be ended...eventually today its the same with nafta/ftaa/wto/imf and imho thats a 18th century cop out not suitable for the 21st century

[mikehiggins]

15. Are you certain you can't still vote for Clark in your primary?

If you can, do so. It won't make any big difference in the face of the John-mentum but it will record your preference, which will have something to do with the way the campaign, and any possible Kerry administration is composed and conducts itself.

Some states still carry Clark on their ballots because it is too late to change them. If your state uses touch-screen voting you might ask for an absentee ballot.

If you can vote to send a message that Clark is your candidate, even if he isn't going to get the nomination, do so. He has endorsed Kerry and will work to advance the campaign, but he has told his supporters to follow their own best opinion.

Mine is to vote for Clark in the Florida primary.