For those who think the Dems and the Repubs are secretly in cahoots .........

[Stinky The Clown]

..... if that is *truly* what you think, why do you even bother to rail against it?

Such working together behind the scenes while acting in public as if there were opposition really strains credulity. How big a conspiracy would that have to be? How many people would have to know *and* be reliably silent on the matter? How, in fact, do you keep all those people silent for life?

And even if all that were possible, why do you protest it .... or even just rail against it? Surely such a vast conspiracy will never allow itself to be changed. To borrow a phrase: "Resistance is futile." So, if one holds this conspiracy as truth, one would have to be kinda nutz to fight it, wouldn't they?

Just wonderin' ........ maybe someone can set me straight?

[AtomicKitten]

1. It's self-perpetuating prophecy

by which all negative input is hyped and anything good is ignored ...

the antithesis of hope

[jus_the_facts]

2. Sigh....

...it's not a vast conspiracy...just look at history and realize we're STILL debating and suffering BASICALLY the SAME THINGS now as 2000 years ago...the haves STILL HAVE and the have nots DON'T...and nothing much changes or progresses in the grand scheme of things...sure there have been some leaps forward...but in reality all we've accomplished has made the entire planet a cesspool. :think:

[hfojvt]

11. You've gone way beyond facts there

A cesspool? Compared to 2000 years ago when cows and horses roamed the streets and people emptied chamberpots in them?

The haves still have? At $10,000 a year I am not a rich American, never have been, but I have far more than any 'Have' ever dreamed about 2000 years ago. Air conditioning, internets, medical care, transportation, musical instruments and ipods, etc., etc., etc.

Not, mind you, that I am a huge fan of 'progress', but still, there have been a number of tremendous positives in 2000 years, and if it wasn't for fascist greedheads like Bush/Cheney, there could have been alot more.

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

3. Did they not conspire to take us to war?

nt

[hfojvt]

8. nope

I've lost the number I wrote down a few days ago, but just goto the Congressional Record and check the votes on the Iraq war resolution. A majority of house democrats voted against it.

Scratch that, I just looked it up on wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

House

voting for - 215 R, 81 D
voting against - 6 R, 126 D, 1 I

Senate

voting for - 48 R, 29 D
voting against 1 R, 21 D, 1 I

House 97.3% Republicans for, 39% of Democrats for
Senate 98% Republicans for, 58% of Democrats for

Don't tell me it's not a Republican war, because it clearly is.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. Some try to make that case .....

.... but mostly, it seems clear, the Dems were just cowards with respect to how their votes would be played in the media.

Sad to say, but it is more likely we were lied to by Bush and the Dems went along because of ego or cowardice .... but no grand conspiracy.

[MadHound]

4. It isn't that there is a "conspiracy" or that the parties are in cahoots,

It is the simple fact that both the 'Pugs and the Dems are bought and paid for by corporate America and the wealthy elite in this country to pursue the interests of the monied and powerful. Sometimes these interests benefit the masses, most of the time they don't. Dems present a slightly more humane face to the voting public, 'Pugs are more openly for business interests. But this is really a more a matter of perception. Sure, there are token reforms, some concession to the public at large. But when you have Phillip Morris and other corporations donating millions of dollars to both parties, whose interests do you think get top priority?

Sure, there have been some exceptional, relatively uncorruptable politicians from both parties. But for the most part throughout our history, those that pay the fiddler have gotten to dance.

But this situation isn't hopeless, far from it. What needs to occur however is for publicly financed elections be instituted throughout the country for each and every political office. Take the money out of the equation and you will have a government much more responsive to the people. Fail to do so and corporate America will run this country into the ground and leave it for dead.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. We pretty much agree on your essentail points and your suggested remedy

Public campaign funding is the right answer, to be sure.

[tecelote]

5. My worry is not that it is a conspiracy but that the administration has...

the dirt on any Democrat that makes waves.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Kinda the same sort of tinfoil ......

... and almost equally hard to take seriously

[tecelote]

18. Yeah, the spying is just for the war on terror.

That's right. I forgot. It would never be used for partisan reasons.

[goodhue]

6. they serve the same corporate interests

although obviously the democrats are generally more willing to take into account rights of the people

[hfojvt]

7. they're gonna fight it

by voting for Nader or Cindy

or, or, Ron Paul. Yeah, that'll fix 'em.

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

9. it's not a secret.. ruling class vs the ruled

has been that way for a long long time

[enid602]

10. both the same?

If both parties are cut from the same cloth (and ultimately are controlled by the same powerful interests), then why is it that only Dem Presidents are continuously sued, wrongfully impeached and assassinated?

[Trillo]

12. There's certainly a 'dynamic' of bipartisanship that has its effects.

Did anyone read the essay that was either titled 'the ratchet' or something similar, posted in the last couple of weeks here on DU?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x294958

I believe the metaphor has some truth in it, though the system may not be 'specifically' organized to work that way. The corporatist has been getting their way, through either party, for a long time.

There's WAY TOO MUCH MONEY in politics, and running for office. There's WAY TOO MUCH lobbyist influence. Heck, corporatist even owns our voting machines now, and we can't see 'their' code.

Naw, there's absolutely no truth that the Democrats had any parts played in the current system or its results. /sarcasm

[Stinky The Clown]

16. You're conflating two arguments

1: A conspiracy between all national pols that happens only when they get elected, and then only in secret, and that they forget everything when they get unelected.

2: All pols have acted in their own self-interest by taking money from big corps and then fellating said big corp.

[Trillo]

17. You're reading your #1 into my words.

1: A conspiracy between all national pols that happens only when they get elected, and then only in secret, and that they forget everything when they get unelected.

I wrote nothing about secrecy, other than the voting machine code issue. I'll agree that I didn't directly address your questions in the OP. My apologies for that. Now that I read your title and post a second time, I see it was a poor thread to argue, and can understand why you believe I did conflate two issues.

I don't believe the undermining of our constitution by the corporatist, beginning around the mid 1800s or thereabouts, is particularly a 'secret'.