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Do you believe Kerry's reason for IWR vote????

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neoteric lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:24 PM
Original message
Do you believe Kerry's reason for IWR vote????
PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL!!!

I am not a Kerry supporter yet but I do believe his reason for the IWR. I don't believe he is "skirting the issue". What do you think? And please, no flames... Lets keep it nice and clean b/c I know it can get dirty when talking abut or canidates. Thanks.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. If I could see through it, why couldn't he?
n/t
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. A civil discussion about IWR? I can hardly wait!
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
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neoteric lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. i think it is possible
why don't you? :)
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I guess there's a first time for everything.
I'm too drunk to care now though.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. No.
He's a liar. Sorry that's as a civil as I can make it.
Kerry is a stone cold liar.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. INSECT overlords. eom
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. No. n/t
:hippie:
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. IMHO, he voted for it because the DLC would have gone after him like they
went after Dean if he didn't.

I think it is that simple.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Dean never had to make that decision.
He was never given the information that Kerry and many others were given by the White House. Suppose it was true. Remember Clinton said they had WMDs.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. The DLC went after Dean as if Dean did. They never attacked Kerry on this
Edited on Sun Feb-15-04 08:18 PM by w4rma
issue, to my knowledge.
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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. No way in hell
Edited on Sun Feb-15-04 07:30 PM by sleipnir
His reason is shoddy and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. 23 other fine Senators saw throught the Bush-shit and voted NO. Kerry just voted Yes because he was going to be running for President and it was the most politically expedient vote. Kerry is lying again, just to get the Iraq War monkey off his back.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. which one?
eom
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. No.
Everyone knew what Bush was up to.
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neoteric lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. where
are the Kerry supporters? I would love to hear from them.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Bing!
Edited on Sun Feb-15-04 09:03 PM by bigtree

I am defending John Kerry in this because he gave an informed (or misinformed) rational for his vote. Maybe I wouldn't have made that vote. I don't know what lies the administration put before the U.N. and Congress. I do know that John Kerry opposed what the president ultimately did, before and after the vote. He didn't hide behind clipped rhetoric. He was effusive in his complaints. He was clear in his opposition to unilateral invasion and occupation.

I was also opposed to the president's actions; before the vote and at the U.N with Powell's phony presentation (I couldn't believe they bought that load.) I anguished over the vote which threatened to wipe out the Senate Democrats because Bush had taken them to the edge of the mid-term elections.

I listened to the debate. I thought Biden-Lugar and Byrd's outright rejection of Bush's open-ended first draft was superior to the final vote. But I listened to John Kerry's admonitions in his floor speech. He said that he would personally hold the president accountable if he exceeded the restraint implied in the bill.


From John Kerry's Floor Speech Before The Vote:

"I am voting to give this authority to the President for one reason and one reason only: to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new tough weapons inspections. In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days - to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out "tough, immediate" inspections requirements and to "act with our allies at our side" if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force.

If he fails to do so, I will be the first to speak out."

Read the speech. Take Kerry at his word:
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html


His presidential bid is a natural extension of his promise. He has been consistent in his aim to remove Saddam with international support. He has deeper knowledge than I as to the true nature of the threat posed. Sen. Kerry is no stranger to the debate over our support of Saddam's regime and the corrupting violence proliferated by Hussein. He voted for the Iraq Liberation Act supported by Clinton which called for regime change. He has been consistent in his concern for the security of the region and for the potential transfer of bio or chem weapons by an unchecked Iraq. His IWR vote was an extension of that concern.

Congress can act, but the president holds ultimate responsibility to follow the mandate of the people as expressed by their representatives. Congress didn't give Bush permission for his preconceived invasion. They acted in accordance with their obligations under the Constitution and the War Powers Act and did not give a blank check.

Congress doesn't seem to have the will to collectively stop this war, even in the face of the evidence that Bush inflated the threat. Two massive funding bills have ratified our mostly unilateral occupation there. I must note that my candidate voted against the $87 billion.

I think this fish rots at the head. Bush must go. John Kerry is consistent in seeking the presidency to ensure that the will of Congress, the American people, and the concerns of the international community are not disregarded in the future.

Congress is the lever. The hold the purse strings. But the president has the ultimate responsibility under the Constitution for committing forces. If Bush can disregard Congress's mandate with impunity then what good is there in holding Congress accountable when the president ignores the law? Did the president even read the resolution?

Nothing in there says drop the U.N. and invade. It says the opposite. And he stepped around them.

The resolution was designed to get Saddam to let inspectors back in by backing the 1441 U.N. resolution with the threat of force. Inspectors were let back in and pulled when Bush rushed forward. If Bush had given the inspectors more time perhaps they would have taken the question of WMDs off of the table.

That was the effect of the resolution. Allowing the inspectors to reenter Iraq and proceed with verification. We could guess, but they would verify. Bush pushed ahead of Congress in his invasion. He cut the inspectors off with his rush to invade. No Democrat advocated that, save Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller.

Why did Congress trust the president? What guarantee do we have that any elected official will follow the Law?

When Congress passes a resolution that mandates seeking swift action by the U.N. security council before proceeding, and proscribes working with the international community until it is determined that 'reliance on diplomatic of peaceful means alone" would not force Saddam's hand, that is the law. The president took an oath promising to follow the law.

Thus, as the resolution states:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.



Didn't the president unlawfully disregard these provisions? Don't these provisions represent the restraint that I maintain is implied in the resolution. Isn't this actually a case of the president pushing past Congress, the American people, and the international community in his race to war?

These are the foremost provisions of the resolution that I believe involves the president and his word.

1. Defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq.

According to who? According to what evidence presented. Doesn't the administration have an obligation to present the threat in a accurate and truthful manner? Did they? Weren't they obligated to under this resolution?

Why aren't the nay voters calling for a new resolution like Dennis Kucinich in his call to repeal the authorization. Where is that push in Congress now from all of the dissenters?

I'll tell you where. They had a chance to modify the war in two separate funding bills. I know that my candidate voted against that $87 billion. That's as close to post-war opposition as any of the others in the Senate have managed. This is in the wake of evidence of no WMD's; hind views; and evidence mounting of the president inflating the threat.

2. Enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

U.N. Res.1441 was negotiated with bogus evidence presented by Powell. But the public still doesn't know the nature or the amount of evidence presented. Some were convinced some weren't. You can see in John Kerry's floor statement that he didn't abide risking the possibility that Iraq might restart a nuclear program, remote-controlled bombers, whatever. That was on the basis of bogus info.

But remember, there were no inspectors inside Iraq to verify anything. One of John Kerry's intentions in the resolution was to pressure Iraq with the U.N. resolution backed up by the threat of force. It worked until Bush pushed ahead and drove the inspectors out again. Those who would hold the president accountable are indebted to Hans Blix for his presence there and his candor.

Still some will insist on holding those who sought to reign him in responsible for the sins of Bush. It makes no sense, politically or on the facts at hand, to claim that John Kerry advocated or acquiesced to unilateral, preemptive invasion and occupation in his support for the IWR.

The authority to commit forces is not inherent in the IWR. That authority is contained in the War Powers Act which decades of presidents have used to commit forces for 60 days without congressional approval. I believe that Congress would be loath to remove forces after they were committed.

The only input that Congress had to the president's rush to war was a 'no' vote, which I don't believe would have restrained the president, and to attempt to place restrictions on the president's behavior through a resolution.

Principled opposition to Bush's war is to be respected and encouraged. But I reject the argument that those same principles were betrayed in just voting for the IWR.

Some Democrats saw the resolution as a way to restrain Bush and send him back to the U.N. My candidate was desperate to stifle Bush's argument for immediate invasion and sought to mandate a return to the international table by limiting Bush's authority in the resolution.

Bush's position before, during and after invasion was that 1441 gave him authority to do any thing he wanted to in that region. He wanted cover, but the IWR doesn't give him cover for his unilateral, preemptive invasion. Nowhere in the bill does it mandate what he did.

If the resolution had failed, the president I think, would have committed forces anyway as decades of presidents had also put troops in the field for 60 days without congressional approval. In that event, I believe, the Congress would be loath to retreat and remove forces. Then, by law a resolution would have been drawn up, likely resembling the one we have now; urging Bush back to the U.N. and calling for internationalization of the conflict.

That is how determined presidents get us into war. Check and checkmate. It's democracy-lite. It stinks, but it is difficult, if not impossible, to restrain a president from committing forces because of the loopholed prerogative inherent in the War Powers Act, which is referenced in the IWR. I believe that the only way to effectively direct him is through some sort of resolution passed by Congress.

It is possible that a unified front of opposition to the resolution could have turned the public against the plan to invade. But I don't think that was at all possible with the republican majority in the Senate, and in view of Bush's plan to invade with or without congressional approval.

Sen. Kerry and other Democrats didn't feel that the president would be restrained with a 'no' vote. They sought to influence his behavior through the resolution.

Bush disregarded the restraint implied in the resolution and pushed past Congress, the American people, and the world community in his predisposed zeal to invade and occupy Iraq.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. Do you think we wouldn't invaded if he would have voted no?
Bush was going to do it no matter what.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Of course not.
But I certainly would have been less likely to view him as a political-expediency-trumps all type.
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. If the Democratic Party
unanimously opposed the war, then I don't think Bush would have done it.

But even if he did, your argument is like someone justifying not speaking against Adolf Hitler's designs on Poland or Czechoslovakia because he would've done it anyway.

It's better to have some balls and promote justice even if it's futile.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. so that means it was just a vote for political expediency?
thats what it looks like to me.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. no way....
Edited on Sun Feb-15-04 07:38 PM by mike_c
I knew the shrub was lying, other senators knew he was lying, half the freaking country knew he was lying. If Kerry also knew, then his IWR vote was politics at its worst-- the politics of aggression and murder. If he didn't know shrub was lying, then I have to seriously question his judgement and his critical thinking.

But no, I don't believe him. I think he knew what dumbya was up to.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. yes
Edited on Sun Feb-15-04 07:44 PM by papau
nuance amd trade offs and trust of the executive is normal -

Bush made it not normal - those at DU knew not to trust him, but "after 911" office holders had to trust Bush because what was the alternative - sell LIHOP to the masses - they still have not realized how likely LIHOP is - how much Bush is hiding (granted gross incomptence and destructive super ego are running a bit ahead of LIHOP even in my own mind).

Sorry - I do not see the vote as unreasonable - and indeed before the vote his speeches explained how and why he was about to vote the way he did - and no one here has said he was evil in his reasoning - only that he should have known how untrustworthy Bush was.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. I buy it, whatever...
...lets just end this goddamn nightmare and salvage whats left of the Old Republic...Do we want Scalia as Chief Justice? 4 more years of Ashcroft? Pat Robertson & Jerry falwell w/ a direct line to the WH?

Lets end this...
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AngryYoungMan Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Right on!!
I wish more people saw it that way.

Sometimes DUers debating the candidates remind me of homeless people refusing food because it's not their favorite kind.
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Well put, Dr Fate.
If Kerry is the nominee, either he or bush will be sworn in on 1/20.05. Will that vote mean as much then, as who is getting sworn in?? I bet not.
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. So if the Democrats nominated Zell Miller
you would vote for him?

Vote for somebody, not against somebody.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. But they did not pick ZELL. How bad do you want Bush to win this???
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 04:42 PM by Dr Fate
So bad that you would compare a good DEM like Kerry to ZELL???

Shame on you and shame on us all if Bush wins.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Honestly, no.
I think Kerry supported the resolution for political cover. I do not believe Kerry thinks occupation is a first resort to internatinal problem solving.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
23. No....he's just placating the democratic
listener.
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LostInTheMaise Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
24. No.
I think the coronation of Kerry is a big mistake.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
26. No. n/t
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
27. No.
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sugarcookie Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
29. NO
eom
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Paulie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
30. Neh
he won't accept the blood on his hands.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. No.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
34. no.
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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
35. NO
n/t
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. NAW.
You said keep it civil.
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vision Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. No
The IWR specifically gave the President the power to decide when diplomatic roles were over. It gave the President the power to declare war, it was up to his judgement alone.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
38. No, but it's a good way to approach it.
To the average person who truly did and STILL believes there may have been WMDs there.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
39. Nope. -nt-
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. No way, no how.
Edited on Sun Feb-15-04 09:10 PM by scarletwoman
Two reasons I say no: Iran-contra and BCCI.

Kerry was on the Senate committees doing those investigations. He, as much as ANYONE, was in a position to know EXACTLY what kind of liars and criminals have been recycled back into junior's (mal)administration.

And for two years after the selection, did he ever speak up? Did he ever come to the defense of the American people, of our democracy, of our Constitution, our civil society, and stand up against the assaults on all these things by the thugs and criminals in the White House?

NO, HE DIDN'T! He protected his political career. He went along and kept his mouth shut, he played his insider games and aided and abetted the strip-mining of our economy and institutions and kept his ass covered.

Iran-Contra and BCCI -- he KNEW what kind of liars and criminals were spinning their evil designs in D.C., and he just went along to get along.

BAH!

sw
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Peeance Freeance Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
41. I believe he regrets it and not for political reasons
nt
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
42. No, it was pure opportunism. He thought that voting for IWR would leave
him in a safe position, regardless of whether the war went well or not.

He calculated he'd be able to use his current strategy - criticizing Bush - if the war went badly. But if WMD were found, and the Iraqis had joyously greeted us as liberators, he figured he'd ALSO be safe. In that case he could say, "Well of course I knew it would work out nicely. THAT'S why I supported it!!" :puke::puke:
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
44. I dislike War and violence but I am okay with it
If you want to blame Kerry for * starting for invading Iraq on cooked up B.S. that's your choice. This whole issue seems very tactical to me, but it could also be just dumb luck. Everybody at the time knew the rub was going to be for making the Dems look weak on Defense. Well as it turns out it's a debacle, but mostly done by the hands of * and cabal.

It make it hard to blame anybody the way the vote went and the surrounding circumstances. I see it mostly as giving the congress an update (false one that it might have been) and getting the permission to look into it further. * and cabal did little to resolve any issues brought forth in the resolutions, they just took it as a ticket to invade. If Kerry would of known what exactly they had and had planned he would have had to been a mind reader. The congress really gave * and cabal nothing they didn't have before that vote.

The * and cabal just wanted a little more cover for the naked aggression they were going to commit under false pretenses and cooked up (or sexed up)information. In no way would I claim innocence for any party. Just maybe you might want to concentrate on who committed the acts, instead of who might have been an a unwitting accomplice(a senator to placing trust in the executive to carry out the duties of the office?). In politics, mostly one will never see an absolute or many times something even near it.

Idealism can get you into trouble if others are not ready for it. Think about where things are at, and which way they should go. It's a lot easier to find an answer that way.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
45. No.
Was that civil?

TWL
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
46. I saw Kerry before the war. I think he regretted his vote but couldn't
say that. Admitting a mistake is sometimes considered political suicide. I think he believed the vote was a maneuver and he did not expect a unilateral war. After he spoke at the Democratic convention in 2002, someone said to him, "I'm against the war." He said responded (off mike but within hearing of a great many people) "I am too." The way he said it, I really got that he was sincere and I think the rest of the people standing there got that too. There was also a lot of sadness (that sounded like regret) in his voice.
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