How did the Dean people change from beating Bush to not caring

[Tweed]

if Bush stays in office? All the rage is to talk about should/when Dean should start his third party campaign. Suddenly, the shift FROM SOME DEAN supporters has turned to derailing Kerry, even in the General Election. I believe that all of the candidates should stay in as long as they possibly can to keep the debate going and to make the front-runner work harder. I also don't think it is necesarry to threaten a party establishment by saying, "If you don't pick our guy, we are out." First Dean was up and everyone was so excited because they couldn't wait to beat Bush. Then Dean trips and SOME PEOPLE just want Dean to start a new political movement.

My big question is, how can Dean honestly support his claim that he will bring new voters into the voting both come November when he can't even bring them to vote for him to become the Democratic candidate. When did this shift occur AMONG SOME? Why did the shift occur AMONG SOME? It seems that now that Dean is losing, some want to change the game or rather, take their ball home and stop the game now.

Edited because it was a generalization before

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. This is flame bait.

It's an inaccurate and unfair characterization of Dean supporters.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cuban_Liberal]

5. I have.

That's why i know the statement is both overly-broad and inaccurate.

[EXE619K]

2. When did they change?

I thought our MOVEMENT was not only about beating Bush, but, changing the Democratic Party?

That's the Dean campaign that I signed on to.

Remember the "cockroaches"? It was there from the beginning.

No?

[SaddenedDem]

3. 2 words - John Kerry

He will NOT get my vote.

[Tweed]

8. 2 words- Kerry/Clark

They will get millions of votes from all different Americans who want Bush out

[schultzee]

32. Kerry /Clark sounds good to me. We need Bu$h out already.

[diplomats]

11. That's your right

but I don't recall very many, if any, Kerry supporters refusing to support Dean when it looked like he was going to get the nomination. I guess some people are more interested in beating Bush than others.

BTW, Dean is not going third party. Period. That's nothing more than a GOP wet dream.

[still_one]

12. Top Aides: Dean Prepared to Abandon Race

The reason he is doing this because he realizes that the stakes are too high this time. If Bush wins another four years he will control the legislative and judicial, and the Democrats will not get it back for at least 20 years, and who knows how many wars and deaths...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040215/ap_on_el_pr/dean_21

[Tinoire]

17. The stakes are too high? In the Primaries? Is this a DLC joke?

Since when are the stakes too high in the God-%&*ed Primaries?

Sounds like the DLC is planting stories to PUSH Dean out. Same way they told Clark when it was time to go except that Clark, being a good soldier, sulked for a day refusing to talk to the media after the DLC's fait-accompli and then came back to play ball (my opinion based on several articles & how it went down).

Dean is not some good little soldier. Dean is in this to win! Just like Kucinich! Just like Edwards! And just like Kerry!

Someone tell Kerry that just because he's been working towards this since his Yale days does not mean an automatic coronation!

[diplomats]

23. Did you actually read the article?

Steve Grossman of Dean's campaign is quoted on the record.

[Tinoire]

33. Chris Lehane was quoted on Clark's too.

Clark probably didn't have a clue it was coming. Just like the Yugoslavia relief that he handled just as graciously after he accepted it.

I won't believe it until it happens. And I will be as angry about it as I was when Clark dropped out.

This is not what Primaries are about.

But no, I did not read the article. The orchestrated mad rush to Kerry's coronation is about to make me pop a blood vessel today. I will calm down and read it in a few. Thanks for your polite response.

[Tweed]

24. Wasn't Dean in the DLC until his VT term ran out?

Was Dean telling "DLC jokes" then?

[Tinoire]

36. I am not a Dean supporter. And yes he was

but he parted ways with them because they don't want such an uncontrollable cannon in the race.

It all started when he opportunistically jumped on the anti-war bandwagon calculating how many votes he could get with that platform and they did not like that. Since then, in my opinion, Dean transitioned from a friend of the DLC to their worst nightmare because they keep trying to control him but they can't and because of the war they've been waging against him, he's now more beholden to his supporters than he is to the DLC. That's dangerous for them- they are terrified of all the people who pulled together $41 million to get their man in the White House.

They need to stop Dean before he gets to California. I hope Dean doesn't cave in because his supporters would mortgage their homes to get him in if that's what it takes. THAT's how determined the Dean machine is and more power to it.

I guarantee you that Dean is not DLC now. He may share a few positions but the bridges are burnt beyond all repair.

[still_one]

26. Hey doesn't matter to me

I am too old to be drafted, I have a job, and healthcare, BUT I DO CARE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY, and so do the candidates who won't win the nomination. They will stand behind the Democratic candidate. For those who can't stomach the winner, get off the train because there is nothing you can do to stop it...

[diplomats]

21. Has that article been posted as a separate thread?

It should be. BTW, I like the comments about turning his grassroots campaign into a long-term vehicle to expand the party. Great idea!

[schultzee]

28. We need to support the candidate that wins the nomination so much

is as stake! Bu$h is going to turn our country into a big Mexico where there is Corporatism and starvation wage jobs. He is a fascist pig and any democrat is better than him. We need to be united behind whoever gets the nomination. No one in their right mind would want 4 more years of bu$h.

[Blayde Starrfyre]

6. Easy Answer

"My big question is, how can Dean honestly support his claim that he will bring new voters into the voting both come November when he can't even bring them to vote for him to become the Democratic candidate."

Well the obvious answer to that is that he IS bringing new people to the Caucuses, but the new people he's bringing in aren't numerous enough to overcome the party establishment and the voters who want the "safe" candidate.

[Tweed]

9. John Kerry must be bringing in new people to the primaries too

Based on the results of Dean getting crushed

[mzmolly]

7. Here is a bit of education for you...

1. "The Dean People" by and large do *CARE*

2. Dean did inspire and bring new people into the process, but after the media told these people over and over again, that Dean is *unelectable* they went with their second choice

3. No one is threatening the Party establishment, some people are simply stating their position ie. they wont support John Kerry

4. Dean supporters (believe it or not) do not all think alike

[diplomats]

13. Certainly Dean supporters are not monolithic

No candidate's supporters are.

[Tweed]

15. Hmmm... I aplogize if I painted them all the same color

I didn't mean to do that. Some Dean supporters aren't even Democrats

[Cuban_Liberal]

22. Then might I suggest an edit?

As it's now worded, it's a broad-brush statement about ALL Dean supporters.

[Tweed]

30. Edited

[Tinoire]

25. Hate to break it to you but most Dean supporters are Democrats

and the very Independents the DLC is pandering to.

Very, very, very few Greens are behind Dean. Most Greens happen to loathe Dean.

If the DNC & DLC pushes Dean and his Democratic supporters too far, denying the people our right to fair Primaries, then the Democratic Party can kiss the General Election good-bye because they will be responsible for Bush's victory.

People did not invest $41 million dollars in a candidate to watch him roll over!

Can't believe that I, as a non-Dean supporter, have to point out the obvious.

And quit complaining about non-Democrats supporting whichever candidate. I thought that was the entire game-plan? Cater to the swing-voters. Well they're here! What is the DLC complaining about? We've got Republicans supporting Dean for Chrissakes. That's not enough? What does the DNC need? For Rove to give Dean his seal of approval. Please don't answer that question.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

The DLC will be the DEATH OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

[Tweed]

34. Wasn't Dean part of "the Death of the Democratic Party"?

[Tinoire]

37. I am not a Dean supporter because of that &

because some of his positions are/were too close to theirs & I never believed Dean was truly anti-Iraq war.

But Dean and I are having second thoughts about each other.

The DLC burnt all bridges to Dean. Clinton's little dirty trick of getting Carter to not give Dean an endorsement at a pre-arranged ceremony didn't help.

It's now war between the DLC and Dean & his supporters. If the DLC continues this, I fully expect all the ant-DLC candidates and their supporters to rally around into one huge anti-DLC movement. That will put quite a different slant on ABD turning it into "anything but the DLC".

==

FRIENDLY PERSUASION
Former Vermont Gov. Howie Dean traveled to Georgia on Sunday thinking he was getting an endorsement from Jimmy Carter. Instead, Dean got a lesson in humility from a man not known for possessing much of it. Late last week Dean's staff had been spinning the press in Iowa that a trip to Georgia one day before the caucuses was worth it, especially if it meant getting support from a former Democratic president.

Dean arrived to a warm welcome, some kind words from Carter, and news that the former president had told reporters that he had never extended an invitation to Dean and that the northerner had simply invited himself.

"Governor Dean shows up and everything we thought was planned was now off," says a Dean adviser in New Hampshire. "No endorsement, nothing. It was like we got shivved in the back."

It got worse. Carter also told reporters that he had extended an invitation to Dean's competitor Wesley Clark to come down to spend time with him. It is unclear when Dean's planned coronation by the peanut farmer got crushed, but a Clark staffer in Washington claimed that on Thursday, when word was leaking out about the Dean visit, both Clark and "a very senior friend to the general" made calls to Carter.

Who was the "friend"?

"Let's just say he held the same job as Carter did, but was more successful," says the Clark staffer. "The calls were made to the former president to encourage him not to jump the gun on any endorsements at such a critical time in the campaign. Apparently, President Carter agreed with that assessment."

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6040

[John_H]

10. 'cause it's the movement, baby!!!!!

[dakota_democrat]

14. You're kidding, right?

Being a proud Dean supporter, I'm flat out offended that anyone thinks that Dean on a 3rd party ticket's worth anything. As much as I'd like to see Dean be our 44th president, I'm ready and willing to bang down the doors to usher Kerry in if he's the nominee. Trust me, there won't be many (if any) Dean supporters that vote for Bush in November.

We might have our petty disagreements, but we all have a singular goal: Getting Bush out! :grouphug: We have the power to do this, and we will! :grouphug:

James

[Tweed]

16. Yeah! Glad to hear it!

[LizW]

18. Inaccurate and inflamatory n/t

[tedoll78]

19. I love the generalization.

Very, very logical. :eyes:

I can only speak for myself, but I'm in this first and foremost to replace Bush with any of these candidates we have. Sharpton, Kucinich, Dean, Edwards, Kerry - ANY of them would be excellent. All are good men with good policy ideas, and any one of them as our President would make me beam with pride.

I know many fellow Dean supporters. And they all feel just about the same way. This is about ridding this nation and world of the Bush scourge. Don't generalize because of a few sore losers on a forum; they are hardly representative.

[patricia92243]

20. This is NOT flame bait, and I'm for Dean all the way. It is asking an....

honest question.

I know I feel angry and disgruntled because I feel like the press - and - even more importantly the Democrat Party - have not given him a fair deal.

This is the primary - this is the time we are supposed to argue, fight, have temper tantrums or what ever.

I could go on and on, but I won't. The bottom line is me - and a lot of other people - say we would write Dean's name in or go for a third party, etc.

But when the smoke clears - and all is said and done - WE WILL DO WHAT IS RIGHT.

So, let us Dean supporters have this time to do the things that people do during primaries. And that is not always pleasant - but we will all survive - I promise!

[diplomats]

27. I think you make some very good points

I guess a lot of what we're seeing is cathartic. I've never tied myself to any one candidate, but if my guy didn't get the nomination, I'd be deeply disappointed, too. It's understandable.

[still_one]

29. well said...

[DU GrovelBot]

31. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

RUN C:\GROVELBOT.EXE
 
This week is our first quarter 2004 fund drive.
Please take a moment to donate to DU. Thank you
for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[kodi]

35. the 2004 election is but a single battle in a prolonged war

the fundamental basis of dean's camapign is to produce a progressive grass roots movement that will eventually capture the democratic party and change the american political landscape. it is only in such a way that the party itself will be invigorated and be responsible to the rank and file of the democratic party and voters in general and not be totally controlled by a select hierarchy which has delivered nothing but bullshit over the past quarter century for the young, the poor, the sick and the elderly.

you have articulated a premise that dean supporters must abide by the rules you apply and strive for the immediate goals you demand.

i am not even a howard dean supporter and i can see that framing the issues such as you have is pure sophistry.

[Tinoire]

39. Nicely said. n/t

[NoPasaran]

38. I am getting pretty sick of being slandered

Nothing is more important to me than getting Bush* and his gang of criminals out of power.

I became a Dean supporter while the rest of the field (with the honorable exception of Dennis Kucinich) was still in full pink tutu mode.

Now the other Democrats are standing up to Bush*. Great! But forgive me if I believe in dancing with them that brung yah.

The fact is that not all the Dean supporters are Democrats. I hope that they will, in the end, stand with us (and with Dean) in November and send this junta to Hell. But it's going to take a nod or two in our direction. This constant savaging for not giving up and climbing on the Good Ship Kerry is not helping.

[Moderator]

40. Locking.....

4. Broad-brush statements about all or some of the supporters or opponents of any Democratic Primary candidate are forbidden. Don't paint people as disruptors or cult members.


DU Moderator