To those who believe (or even consider) Kerry's intern issue

[Dookus]

to be true....

Do you believe Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster?
Do you believe Web Hubble is Chelsea's biological father?
Do you believe Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet?
Do you believe Bill Clinton has a black "love-child"?
Do you believe John McCain is clinically psychotic?
Do you believe Howard Dean is clinically psychotic?
Do you believe Wesley Clark is clinically psychotic?
Do you believe Bill Clinton was a cocaine addict/dealer?
Do you believe Al Gore hired Naomi Wolf as a fashion consultant?
Do you believe Hillary Clinton is a lesbian?

All of those were unfounded rumors put out on the internet (and elsewhere) by far-right propagandists.

Just because Drudge asserted something (that has since been denied by Kerry, and the intern's parents), why even give it any consideration, absent any other evidence?

I'm sickened that so many people here seem willing to believe this because they WANT it to be true. That's the same reason the far right believed all those rumors above (although why the lesbian Hillary had an affair with Web Hubble is beyond me, but I read it on Free Republic, so it must be true).

We should have learned by now that when it comes to right-wing propagandists, the adage "where there's smoke, there's fire" is meaningless. In these cases, where there's smoke, there's nothing more than a smoke-blowing machine.

[Adelante]

1. It's over the top, Dookus

Absolutely stomach-turning that Democrats are playing along with this shit. :puke:

[diplomats]

3. Excellent, Dookus

There's zero evidence of anything. I'm also appalled that some people here think Clark was the source, because Drudge said so. Please.

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. it isn't just drudge.

the cspan reporter talked about how 'dumbfounded' the reporters who heard clark say it were. and pat caudell, was needled by tweety until he said lehane was the source.

trying to dismiss this as just drudge bs runs counter to the evidence.

[KoKo]

2. No, I don't believe what you listed. But there "was" a Monica and their

"was" a "blue dress." I didn't want to believe that about Clinton and told everyone I knew that those were lies made up by the RW Repugs just to bring down Clinon. My friends haven't believed me since then. Because, it wasn't a lie. :-(

So, this story could be true or not. Kerry MUST come out and tell us that he has been faithful to Theresa. He must do this, or we will be always waiting for this story to have legs or another person to come forward. If he has nothing to hide in the way of female sexual liasons he should tell us.

I don't want to go through what we did with Clinton again.

[Dookus]

4. So if I start a blog

and claim that Howard Dean is suffering from untreated syphilus, the burden is then on him to come forward and prove that he doesn't?

[Adelante]

7. You could start a blog

That Howard Dean was an abortionist because he was associated with a Planned Parenthood clinic. It would be the equivalent amount of absolutely nothing. Yet when this was the smear of the moment many, probably most, DUers did not jump on the bandwagon and happily carry the anti-Dean flag. NO Democrat should participate in this low, revolting behavior. :mad:

[diplomats]

6. I know how you feel, KoKo

but Drudge has been wrong many more times than he's been right. I accept Kerry's denial because there's no evidence proving otherwise at this time.

[still_one]

5. I agree with you

but it sure would be nice if the "so-called" person would come out and speak to the press

[Dookus]

10. Why?

Were the Clintons obligated to provide DNA tests for Chelsea based on an internet rumor?

Was Hillary obligated to state publicly that she is NOT a lesbian?

The person making the assertion has the obligation to provide evidence for it. Drudge has not done so.

[Paschall]

13. But if it were you

And you were, let's say falsely, accused of carrying untreated syphillis--just to pick a hypothetical--would you think it wise, or would you be willing to bother, to come forward to deny it? How many pages of your personal medical and other records would you be willing to release to prove your denial? And which members of your family, and which former and/or current friends, lovers, clergy, teachers and employers could you provide as character witnesses?

[mzmolly]

8. Do you believe Bill Clinton schtooped Monica Lewinsky?

That was also reported on RW Propaganda sites, though your point is not lost.

However I would caution that the intern in question has to come forward and soon or voters will rightfully become uneasy.

[LandOLincoln]

27. No, as a matter of fact I don't believe Bill Clinton schtupped Monica.

Schtupping = fucking. The old in/out. "Going all the way." Making babies. You know.

They didn't do that, IIRC. Close, but no (kaff kaff) cigar...

[mzmolly]

48. *Schtoop* = Cigars, you know, oral sex?

;) Is oral sex still sex? And, is it adultry in the classic sense?

Yes and Yes. :hi:

Now I don't care about Mr. C's personal affairs and I voted for him 2 X buttttt, the issue is how will this incident effect JK's support in the GE should it be true?

I dont think anyone can say with certainty and a straight face, that it wouldn't have an impact.

[Dookus]

50. Well

despite your misuse of the word "shtupp", yes, of course I believe Clinton had sexual contact with Monica Lewinsky. He admitted it, Monica admitted it.

There was also physical evidence pointing to the fact that was submitted to a Grand Jury.

Until we get that kind of corroboration on the Kerry rumor, I will not proceed as if the charge is true. You, however, are free to believe whatever lies, smears or RNC talking points make you feel better about your candidate's chances.

[HFishbine]

9. How quickly we forget

"Just because it's on Drudge doesn't mean it's untrue."

-- Dookus, Jan. 08, '04, on defending Druge's report of accusations of Dean campaign spying.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=84975#85189

[Dookus]

11. that is true

I never said just because something's on drudge it's untrue.

But something with no corroborating evidence whatsoever, that has been denied by the principal involved, requires more evidence than Drudge's simple assertion.

In the case you mention, Drudge printed a letter from a Kerry staffer. It was not an article written by drudge. The intern "story" is a "Drudge exclusive", reported and written by him.

But nice try.

[LizW]

25. Are you claiming Drudge made this up?

That he just picked a girl's name out of the air and fabricated the whole thing and put it on his site?

Of course you're not.

What it looks like is that there is a rumor out there and a lot of people, including, perhaps, Wesley Clark, Al Gore and several reporters have heard it. It looks like this young woman does exist and that she and Kerry do know each other, and that she is currently in Africa.

Kerry's problem is that a fairly specific allegation of a two-year extramarital affair was made. It's not fair, and it's ugly, and it's awful, and it's disgusting, but nevertheless it's out there and Kerry's running for President, so he had to answer it.

Now that Kerry has gone on record with an unequivocal denial, anyone who thinks the Republicans are going to leave this alone is a fool and also must have been in a coma during the Clinton years. We learned that, although people don't really care so much about a powerful man's sex life, or whether he lies about it, the ALLEGATION that he lied, repeated OVER AND OVER, distracts from his ability to do the job. In effect, it gives the Republicans power over him, since they can browbeat him constantly in the press and on talk radio, raising doubts about every decision he makes.

Kerry is not Clinton. We had already closed the sale on Clinton when we found out how bad it was. It took the Republicans years to finally get Clinton on record with a denial. By the time they did, he was ours and we had a vested interest in him, so we stood by our man. Kerry doesn't have the luxury of being a sitting president. If it turns out he had an affair and lied about it, he loses the magic "electability" charm.

As a Democrat, I want to know before I commit to a candidate whether he has a problem that could render him unelectable against Bush. We have to know this before we choose Kerry as our nominee.

I am made very suspicious by the undeniable evidence that the media and the party insiders are desperate to get Edwards committed to VP and Dean out of the race. If the woman problem blows up on Kerry (and if it's true, it will), the only way Kerry will still be a viable candidate is if neither Edwards or Dean, or any other viable candidate, is left to step forward.

Check out posts by Wise Men and Will Pitt today. Check out the level of desperation in the urging by the media to get Dean to drop out, but not Kucinich or Sharpton. It's a race against the clock. This rumor is either true or it's not. My gut tells me that the party power brokers are afraid it's true and they are desperate to get rid of Dean before it comes out and blows up Kerry's campaign.

[drfemoe]

36. Not a "Drudge exclusive"

http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/000780.html

February 06, 2004
Rumor: A Kerry Affair & Push Polling
Rumor has it that John Kerry (D) is going to be outed by Time Magazine next week for having an affair with a 20 year old woman who remains unknown. The affair supposedly took place intermittently right up to Kerry's Fall 2002 announcement of candidacy. At present, this is nothing more than a rumor; and after such sordid tactics as the "push polling" that took place in South Carolina in the 2000 elections, can such rumors be credible during campaign cycles? Could this create a Democratic backlash against Republicans for perceived scandalmongering?
...
http://www.watchblog.com/

Drudge picks up on Kerry/Intern affair
Matt Drudge is blowing up over this, it is plastered all over his front page and though it only has one link, it looks like he finally got the tipoff that this will be running in the newpapers (probably tomorrow) and the online editions should pick up on it later today.

Gee, they're only a week behind WatchBlog.

UPDATE: Here's a Google feed on the topic: "kerry affair OR infidelity OR intern", for anyone who wants to watch as other organizations post across the wire.

UPDATE 2: Fark has a newsflash and comments on it. The title seems a bit melodramadic, but that's Fark.

UPDATE 3: Will this herald the rise of the antithesis of the neo-conservative... the neo-liberal? I predict a giant chasm emerging between Bush and Kerry (if he can even get the nomination!) and another close race in 2004. Already I'm starting to see some traces of the belligerance among Kerry supporters that has been so prominant amongst Bush supporters. This will be very interesting, stay tuned. ***

*** Kerry supporter comment in original and is not an editorial comment by this poster.

[Dookus]

38. see the story here

http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2004/02/13/20040213_155208_mattjk1.htm


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU FEB 12, 2004 11:45:28 ET XXXXX

CAMPAIGN DRAMA ROCKS DEMOCRATS: KERRY FIGHTS OFF MEDIA PROBE OF RECENT ALLEGED INFIDELITY, RIVALS PREDICT RUIN

**World Exclusive**
**Must Credit the DRUDGE REPORT**

[drfemoe]

41. well it was reported first on Feb 6

at the site I linked. Looks like Drudge has a credibility issue. Perhaps the Clark comment was the "exclusive", but not the original report.

[Paschall]

15. And just because something is true...

...doesn't mean it's relevant.

Private sex between consenting adults is not a violation of the law and has no bearing on a person's capacity for governance.

And personal infidelities are matters of concern only to the persons involved.

They're nothing compared to infidelity to one's oath to defend the Constitution.

I'm confident that in his reinvented presidential self Shrub is perfectly faithful to Pickles. Notwithstanding, he's screwing the citizens of this country and the world.

[Walt Starr]

16. A few days ago, I would have agreed with you, but not today

If this story is true, then Kerry has lied about it and it goes to credibility. Sad, but true. If it turns out Kerry lied bout an affair with this woman, there is no way possible for him to win the election against Bush.

[Paschall]

21. It goes to credibility, yeah

His wife might find it rather hard to believe him on such personal matters in the future.

But surely you're not saying it tarnishes the credibility of Kerry's combat or political record.

[DontBlameMe]

32. You don't think there's maybe...

5-10% of the voting Democratic population who might stay home if this were found to be true? Especially if he denied it, then it were proved true?

No offense, but that's incredibly naive. How long have they been talking about Janet's boob?

[salin]

46. Sadly

I know of more votes lost to Gore based on the Clinton Monica thing, then I know of votes lost to Gore in favor or Nader. For some... there was a sense that Gore didn't distance himself enough.... which is ironic because others feel Gore hurt himself by running away from Clinton - and I personally think that Gore was stuck in a damned if you do and if you don't situation.

It shouldn't matter - be it true or not.

However for some voters it does matter. Thus, suddenly, it would enter the discussion per an issue of "electability."

I very much hope that the story isn't true, and take heart that the story has remained fringe (eg internet and british tabloids) - if the du thread titles are an indication. I refuse to take part in the speculation about the story as it seems to be more like rumour mongering rather than anything else.

[Duder]

12. If it's true...

Let's hope they didn't video tape it like Paris Hilton.

Ewwwww.

[Walt Starr]

14. How 'bout the one that Clinton had an affair with an intern?

Although I doubt the story, there is still a possibility it is true.

Alex Polier can put the story to rest with a statement. Until then, the possibility still exists.

[Dookus]

17. And if I claim

Walt Starr is a bank-robbing penguin-molestor, are you obligated to come forward and prove me wrong?

[Walt Starr]

18. I'm not the nominee designate for president

so nobody really would really give a flying fart.

Apples and oranges, Dookus. Walt Starr and John Kerry are in two completely different situations.

[Dookus]

19. OK..

I've seen it claimed on the internet that Howard Dean was an abortionist.

Is he obligated to come forward with the files of all his past patients (names obscured of course) to prove that he wasn't?

[drfemoe]

40. He has said he did not perform abortions

that didn't stop people from continuing to say he did.

[Dookus]

43. exactly right...

so since his denial doesn't end the questioning from his political enemies, is he then obligated to provide further proof?

Personally, I take him at his word, absent any other evidence.

NOTE: I wouldn't give two rat's ass-hairs if he DID.

[Cheswick2.0]

20. I believe that John Kerry had many affairs and has acted like a sleazball

for many many years. It is apparently old news in DC.

I also believe Bill Clinton had many affairs and acted like a sleazball for many many years.

I don't believe that democrats once they understand how Kerry lives his private life, will approve or want to go down that path again. I know I don't.

Kerry is neither the president or the nominee so he does not and will not get the same level of loyalty that Clinton did. Kerry is Bill Clinton without the charm and likability.

None of the rest of your questions are applicable. Hillary Clinton didn't kill Vince Foster therefor John Kerry didn't have an affair?

[Dookus]

22. And I think

you believe that to be true in a misguided hope that if it IS true it somehow helps your candidate.

When is Howard Dean going to come forward and prove that he wasn't an abortionist?

[funky_bug]

23. Most interesting is that ardent anti-Patriot Act people are...

...quite frankly, acting like hypocrits. Though Kerry is not an enemy combatant, if you are going to say the burden of proof is upon him to be deemed innocent, then you better just fall in line and say that the Patriot Act has merit.

It's "innocent until proven guilty", NOT the other way around.

[mdmc]

24. I have a perceptive friend

She does not trust any of the Democrats regarding their sexual promiscuity except for Braun, Gephardt, and, perhaps moot since he cannot cheat, Kucinich. She also thinks that w cheats, and that GHW Bush also was an adulterer.

She doesn't think that Kerry is faithful. She is still voting for Kerry, if he is the Dem nom.

[dd123]

26. Do you believe John Kerry had botox injections?

Oh no never. You know he categorically denied it.

[Dookus]

29. No, I don't believe he has

I've only seen it claimed by his enemies, with no other evidence.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Why are we entitled to see what's in Kerry's sex life but not Dean's

gubernatorial records?

Why is a private matter of public interest but record on public interest private?

[Dookus]

30. Heheh...

exactly right, of course.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Dookus]

33. Oh, Grovelbot, grovelbot...

one can't help but admire your consistensy and focus.

[incapsulated]

34. If outright denial and lack of any proof isn't enought to drop this

What is? What is it you want exactly? We were right to reject the Monica story, because he denied it and there was no proof, so did the people closest to him. It turned out that he lied and there was proof. Then it was an issue. It was an exceptional case.

If we are going to hold the candiates to a standard that assumes one is lying when asked about an issue, and does not need any proof whatsoever, except that it's a "rumor thats been around", we are all in trouble, can't you see that? That means that anything on Drudge or any rightwing site should be taken seriously no matter what the accusation, because Kerry (or whoever) could be lying and it could be true.

I could be lying when I say that I'm not an alien from the Planet X, so I guess I'm under suspicion, too, until proven otherwise.

[Dookus]

35. you responded to me...

but I agree with you 100%.

The whole point of the thread is to point out that treating every unfounded accusation as legitimate is ridiculous.

[incapsulated]

39. There were too many posts I could've responded too ;)

So it was a "stand on it's own" post more than a reply to you. :)

[Dookus]

44. no problem

:)

[Adelante]

42. Hey, Incap, you're yelling at Dookus!!

:7

[incapsulated]

47. Heh.

I didn't mean to, as I said. :) I don't have the energy to respond to everyone today!

(i'm probably going to have root canal work done tomorrow, my tooth is killing me. :cry: )

[salin]

45. I have no idea what to believe... have not tried to follow the story

and figure that it will mostly sort itself out.

However - and this is not specific to Kerry, but to any nominee (particular note to those whose response is always to turn the discussion to a specific other candidate... I would say the exact same thing in the context of that candidate as well)... I do think that IF this is a real issue/story... then those raising it shouldn't be treated as if they MUST have a conspiratorial motive.

Look we are still reeling from attacks from the rightwing - nonstop investigations that began within the month that Clinton took office... and reeling from the greater assault that happened when bushco took over. Sometimes we do react from fear... fear that something will happen that will ensure another bushterm. Indeed from the earliest discussions at DU - several candidates were derided (some vitrolically) based on the "electability" issue - same root of some of the fear that is seen here.

Then there is - hate to use this term - the Clinton fatigue... but for some of us there lingers a fatigue at battling one battle that really never had to happen and was completely avoidable - and the distaste at having been in a position to do so.

Personally, I know of more votes that were lost for Gore over the fidelity thing (by swing vote midwesterners who were still so disturbed by the Monica thing, and expressed that Gore didn't do enough to distance himself from Clinton) - then I know of votes that went for Nader.

I think Clinton was a fine president. I think that the whole investi-gate by the GOP - and inparticular the Starr debacle was a sham and shameful. But I was more than disappointed and angered that Clinton, who knew he was being attacked, investigated, watched, etc. - couldn't put some of his issues in check and found another way of dealing with it - so not to give the fodder that could end his presidency. I would be just as angry with any major candidate - who witnessed the whole thing - who has had a recent affair and jumped into the race regardless - and would be willing to risk winning the nomination and then losing the race because there are still too many puritanical voters for whom that IS an issue that determines a vote.

If true, the issue is, at its root, about electability.

That said - I am saying my piece on this one time. I don't want to keep pushing a story that is likely to be rumour mongering and fodder for the right. Per the particulars of this story - I haven't even read closely enough to try to glean the validity or invalidity of the story. I figure it will shake out - and I don't have to follow salacious inneundos in the meantime.

However, unlike many around here, I find it a scenario that would not be unbelievable for most of the candidates - again not zeroing on personality or anything about Kerry... BUT - I believe recent statistics show a very high proportion of people who admit to having extramarital affairs... AND power politics is an powerful aphrodisiac both for the politician and for the political star f*cker... we have seen numerous instances of this on both sides of the political aisle. Thus - it wouldn't surprise me about any of the candidates - but it WOULD sadden me, and it would worry me regarding our general election possibilities. It shouldn't matter. It should be about issues and not about private matters. But sadly in this election, which is winnable - but likely to be razor edge close - suddenly any extramarital affair (particularly were it to be recent) would factor into "electability".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. I agree with this post and am guilty to tying it to a candidate

based on where the most posts and revivals are generated from.

I do wonder though...if this isn't true and given that her parents have denied that an affair took place...how does he go about proving it false?

I am not asking you to DRAG you into it, but as a reasonable person who has stayed above the fray, what would you honestly recommend as a remedy to put it to bed? (no pun intended)

How can Kerry effectively address this if it's untrue? Proving negatives is quite difficult.

[salin]

51. One thing he shouldn't do

is challenge the media to follow him around day and night... hehe (joking!)

But that joke raises the issue that two ways of handling this have been 'tainted' by the two precursors (Hart.... righteous indignation, and Clinton... ambiguous appologies {during the election} and later denial mixed with turning the accusations on the accusers (Hillary's response.) This makes responding harder.

Sadly one way for this to go away (presuming it is not true) is one that bothers me greatly as to the invasion of privacy, but it is for the woman involved to speak out - and not only address the allegations - but the frustration with a so-called "friend" for pushing the story... whereby playing on the ugly/icky feeling most people got from the role that Linda Tripp once played - but one doesn't want to play that overtly - as one doesn't want the circumstances of Tripp recalled (e.g., entrapping Monica on tape.) She, more than anyone, can play the indignation card - at the press for following something so shakey - and for disrupting her life. This tact could make the focus go on the runaway, salacious tabloid-like media - and make the media a little more skittish about pursuing salacious stories as facts.