I was never a big fan of Hillary Clinton, but after what Obama said about merit pay...

[calteacherguy]

I'm ready to support her...not enthusiastically, but she has my support unless someone else jumps in the race.

Obama's just not ready.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. What did he say about merit pay?

[calteacherguy]

2. He floated the idea...and that's enough to lose my vote. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. You mean for teachers?

No I don't like it either.

[DrDan]

48. I am with you

I don't understand where he was coming from - merit pay for teachers - it just shows he has no grasp on this particular reality.

That, coupled with only a couple years experience and his belated vote on Iraq war funding, leads my vote elsewhere.

Should he win the nomination. I will vote for him.

Any primary vote however will probably be for someone else.

[DangerDave921]

106. Merit Pay?

What's wrong with paying people based on performance? I like the bargaining power of unions, but have always bristled at the notion that every person with the same years of experience is treated identically in terms of pay. In the private sector (where I work) people are alwasy rewarded by their performance as judged by their supervisors. It's the nature of the beast.

[Felinity]

6. What do you mean by merit pay?

Sorry, can't keep up on all the issues.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. I am thinking for teachers

It is a hotbed issue right now. Currently we are paid based on years of experience. There are several different merit pay models but the idea is that we be paid based on test scores or student achievement of some type or even administrator decisions.

The big problem I see is there are so many of us who don't have classrooms. How do you decide how much to pay the nurse or the counselor? You can't really link their jobs to student achievement. Yes, they are important, but you can't connect them directly to student achievement.

Probably 99% of teachers oppose merit pay. So to get our vote, a candidate needs to be smart enough not to bring this up.

[MonkeyFunk]

3. seems a rather silly

reason to discount a candidate. Presidents have very little influence over such things, and he floated the idea - he didn't introduce legislation mandating it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. And I can remember when the core idea behind No Child Left Behind

was floated by presidential candidates. Oh if we had only known then what we know now.

[Maribelle]

14. It's not really silly ...

and actually goes to the heart of public education - - a clear indication that a candidate doesn't understand the issues involved.

Merit pay based on the progress of children in the classroom give teacher's of advanced classes an unfair advantage, and teacher's of problem children no chance. Teacher's don't deserve this.

Teacher's deserve a equal pay for the enormous responsibilities the face each and every day - - which would be tens of thousands more than they receive now.

[MonkeyFunk]

30. but he didn't say

test scores should be the criteria. I don't know that he proposed any details.

But politically, I don't think it hurts him at all. I think most people would like to see good teachers rewarded. The debate seems to be over how to identify a good teacher.

[Maribelle]

40. What other way could you objectively award merit pay to teachers ...

If it is not based on the progress of students? (btw - - I didn't say test scores either)

[draft_mario_cuomo]

89. Exactly. It isn't surprising that merit pay apologists did not answer this basic question nt

[Capn Sunshine]

84. good thing the rest of the country disagrees with you

we should try any and all ideas because what we have currently is broken. Unless you like it broken, because you want to privatize education.

For this and other refreshing viewpoints, try
Barack's website.

[calteacherguy]

35. "goes to the heart of public education - -

a clear indication that a candidate doesn't understand the issues involved."

That's exactly it. It deflects attention away from the real problems facing public education and puts the blame on the teachers. Moreover, the idea is unworkable. Education is not like business sales where one can be judged based on the number of sales made, or some other arbitrary factor.

Public education cannot be run like a business because it's a human enterprise, not a business enterprise. There are other ways to attract quality teachers and address the teacher shortage...quality pay across the board comes to mind.

[CTyankee]

113. I always use the pay issue when I argue with repubs

When they rail against all the money teachers get, I say something like "You know, it's funny that when basketball players or baseball players get astronomical pay, we just accept it as the norm. And yet decent pay for teachers is an outrage. What is more important: teaching our next generation of Americans or paying some guy a ton of money to put a ball in a round basket?"

[LordJFT]

80. yeah but merit pay aside he seems more committed to increasing salaries for teachers in general

than the other candidates

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flarney]

5. Is Edwards not an option? n/t

[calteacherguy]

32. No, Edwards is definitely not an option. nt

[jsamuel]

8. I was blown away when I heard him suggest merit pay directly to teachers at the NEA.

I was really angry and so was my wife.

Now I have to say my rankings have changed:

1. Edwards
2. Gore
3. Clinton
4. Obama
5. Kucinich
6. Richardson
7. Dodd
8. Biden
9. Gravel

[tblue37]

75. Please put Clark in there, too.

He hasn't joined the race, but he has said he is giving it some consideration. He and Gore would be my first choices.

[Ethelk2044]

104. That is because he is not for pandering. Some people like someone who will tell them any and

everything. He is more direct. The NEA President and teachers seems to like what he has to say. At least they listen. They were willing to listen to him. as well.

[elizm]

9. I'm a teacher too...26 years...

And might I suggest that you listen carefully to what he is saying? He is saying that he wants TEACHERS to be the ones to brainstorm and come up with something that works. I have no problem with merit pay based on something such as measuring the growth of students in that teacher's classroom over the year. And progress can be measured by a number of different methods. I, for one, get tired of teachers who teach the same way every year, never getting any results, and who give the rest of us a bad name. I think as teachers we can come up with something fair that would work....and would improve the education that our kids are getting.

[jsamuel]

12. But is punishing pay really the ONLY WAY to solve the problem with

"teachers who teach the same way every year, never getting any results"

Plus, is there any research available that even shows that doing so solves the problem, or is it just a guess that it will? What about other places that have already done this? Have they been successful or has it actually hurt the system?

[elizm]

16. I'm not sure what you mean by punishing pay...

...Seems to me what I get now is punishing pay. Why not give teachers who consistently get good results a little extra....to MOTIVATE others! I can't answer to what about other places that have already done this because I don't know what model they used. Did teachers come up with it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. And the ones like me who will NEVER get good results?

What do you propose for us?

[elizm]

23. WHy will you never get good results??

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. I teach special ed

One of my little girls will be in 4th grade this fall. She is still learning to write her name and still doesn't know her phone number. Those are pre-school skills. But she has to take the same test her peers take and her achievement is compared to theirs.

[elizm]

43. AGAIN...I will say it one more time...

Who said they would be measured in the same way as the others. That is NCLB...and Obama is strongly opposed to that. He wants teachers to come up with the plan. If your kids show progress based on what is expected for them, and on a measure that is fair, why wouldn't that work?

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Better start lobbying them

NCLB is up for renewal this fall. President Obama won't be able to do anything about it once it is on the books once again. That is a function of CONGRESS.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Our union did a study

and found that districts with merit pay had very high turnover and early retirement rates. There is a current teacher shortage. We don't need to do anything to DISCOURAGE teachers from working.

[jsamuel]

19. Thank you. An actualy study with information on what would happen, not just guessing.

[elizm]

25. Maybe when the pressure was on....

...they decided that they might not be cut out for teaching after all...that's why they left. Maybe they were concerned that their free ride was over. Sorry to be so blunt, but believe me, I know plenty of teachers who are that way.

[jsamuel]

26. This is an insulting argument. "If you don't like merit pay, then you aren't a good teacher."

[elizm]

38. UM...I believe that is what YOU said...

Don't twist my words to make YOUR argument.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. And I know very few in that category

Maybe because I am in an urban district and only the strong survive there. But we have a saying in my district: "THEY HAD 5 YEARS". We are given tenure after 5 years and for each of those 5 years, probationary teachers have to meet criteria to remain employed. And every single bad teacher I have ever known was granted tenure. Teachers don't all of a sudden get bad overnight. But rather than helping them improve or actually not renewing their contract, the district transfers them or just offers them a contract year after year after year. This is an ADMINISTRATIVE function and a bad teacher is a sign that our administrators aren't doing THEIR jobs. But the rest of us get to take the heat. Some system, eh? Yet, you are proposing that these same administrators determine how much I get paid from year to year? No thanks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. How much would you pay the counselor? Or the Art teacher?

Or me - the special ed teacher? My kids will NEVER show proficiency or even growth on the damn fill in the bubble tests. An achievement based merit pay system would mean I would NEVER get a raise.

Merit pay would work for classroom teachers but there are too many of us in the school who AREN'T classroom teachers. So I vehemently oppose it.

[jsamuel]

18. They tried this in FL under Jeb Bush.

What ended up happening is all the black/latino inner-city schools kept failing and lost their funding while all the white suburban schools got extra funding.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Yes I remember that

And our dipshit superintendent is using a Florida school district's system as a model for us to study!!

[elizm]

29. AND Obama wants to give extra incentives...

...to teachers who are willing to go teach in those very schools you are talking about. That is also part of his plan.

[last_texas_dem]

45. I support those aspects of his plan, but

I don't think that those measures make up for his support for tying a teacher's pay to the performance of the students he or she happens to be assigned to teach. That's an idea that I don't even see the point in trying to figure out "better" ways to implement because it is a flawed concept at its essence, IMHO.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. I agree

There are far too many factors that impact student achievement. To place it all in the teacher's lap is insane.

[elizm]

21. Special ed kids do show growth...

Maybe not at the rate that others would....but a good system could take that into account. Why vehemently oppose something that hasn't even been suggested yet? Obama wants TEACHERS to come up with the plan. Do you not think it would motivate some teachers to do a better job if they thought they'd get paid more???

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Not on the fill in the bubble tests we have to give now

Before NCLB, we had individualized yearly tests in special ed and yes, the kids showed growth. But we can't give those anymore. The special ed kids have to take the same tests as every other kid. And they consistently bomb.

[elizm]

27. WHO said they'd have to use the bubble test for those kids???

AGAIN....Obama is saying let the educators come up with the plan. And I don't know one educator that would punish special ed kids like that....Only the people in Washington who gave us NCLB. Obama is vehemently against NCLB and has said so repeatedly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. And how is he going to get rid of it?

It needs to be thrown out but the president doesn't perform that function.

[Hippo_Tron]

65. I would imagine that you form a system that takes that into consideration

Obama hasn't proposed a system where "the teacher with the class that has the highest test scores gets paid the most." I'm sure that when the NEA sits down to come up with a system for merit pay with him, that will be one of the first concerns that they address.

Certainly the teachers who teach special ed can be evaluated based on a different system than the teachers who teach advanced classes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. But that is how merit pay works

It is based on student achievement. I also have no idea what kind of system to propose that is NOT based on student achievement. Any ideas?

[calteacherguy]

31. What about classrooms with transient populations? nt

[elizm]

34. Well, I don't know...let's see..

Measure their growth during the time they were with that particular teacher?? Make exceptions in certain situations where it is impossible to measure....Leave students out of the measure who were there only a short time??? Seems there are tons of ways to do it, if a person is willing to do what it takes to improve education.

[calteacherguy]

37. And why spend time trying to figure this out when there are so many bigger problems?

Teachers aren't the problem. How do you give merit pay to parents and students?

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. Have you thought out the time it would take to do that?

Every school would need a full time staff member who worked with data.

If you really want to improve education, here are my ideas:

Increase the funding. Set it at a level where we CAN do what we know needs to be done to meet the needs of ALL kids. This is an idea that has NEVER been tried yet. And make it fair. We currently have some well funded schools and some poorly funded. Read Jonathan Kozol's SAVAGE INEQUALITIES to get a good picture of the inequity of school funding in America.

Reduce class size. No more than 15 in elementary school and 20 in secondary schools.

Get rid of middle schools. They don't work and never will.

Give kids access to technology. Clinton put the internet in every school but no one thought to buy all the schools the computers they need to access the internet. Put Smart Boards in EVERY classroom. Let's really prepare kids for life in the 21st century instead of pretending we are doing that.

Modernize the facilities. My students attend school in a 95 year old building with boiler heat, no air conditioning and no screens on the windows. For at least a month every year we bake and dodge flying insects (and even birds sometimes!) while we try to learn. There is no other industry in America that functions in the kinds of deplorable buildings where many of our kids spend their days. This is disgraceful.

Raise the mandatory attendance age to 18. It is insane that we allow our kids to drop out at 16.

Pay teachers a reasonable wage. Make it comparable to other college graduates. I have as much education as my cousin the doctor but I earn less than half what she does.



All of this costs money. So if we are really serious about improving education, let's put a crowbar on our wallets and be willing to spend the money we need to spend on our kids. If we really value our children, we should value their education.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Merit pay's just a dumb fucking idea.

It's like paying the weatherman based on how the weather is.

Not that I'm going to hold it against Obama for bringing it up.

[zulchzulu]

51. Thanks for your service

I put teachers in the same honorable category as military veterans.

No kidding...

I've taught some classes over the years (multimedia) and it is one difficult thing to do well.

[Catchawave]

11. calteach - it would help if you put this is some context

Why would Obama say something like that?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

90. He is triangulating on education nt

[last_texas_dem]

28. I was very disappointed in that statement as well

I do not believe that there is any fair way to implement "merit" pay, and I question why Obama would choose to come out in favor of it. I still like Obama, but this announcement was a major disappointment for me.

However, it didn't push me further towards Clinton. My favorite candidates at this point are Edwards and Kucinich, and I wouldn't mind seeing Gore enter the race, either...

[elizm]

33. This is a hit piece....

WHy don't you try to get more information about what he is proposing before you jump to conclusions.

[ShortnFiery]

60. Roger that ... take one little snippet, in essence, ONLY to keep our *star* teachers and blow it out

of proportion.

How Rovarian. :puke: :thumbsdown:

[elizm]

36. Then why did Obama bring the NEA to its feet???!!

They must have liked what he was saying....or were at least willing to listen with a freaking open mind!

[calteacherguy]

39. How do you feel about merit pay for parents and students? nt

[elizm]

42. Makes no sense to me. No idea what you are talking about....

Would love to hang around and argue some more but I have a meeting to go to....and I can see that there are no open minds around here anyway.

[calteacherguy]

88. Ha ha...think about it. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. I love it!

Let's pay parents when kids do their homework and come to school every day. And they can get bonuses when they don't let their kids play video games all night long:)

[draft_mario_cuomo]

91. Because they liked other things he was saying. The NEA has always opposed "merit pay"

They oppose it regardless of the party label of the politician proposing it.

[Sparkly]

53. Serious -- if stupid -- question here....

How much power or sway does a president have on instituting merit pay?

[jsamuel]

55. NCLB is Bush's baby.

So, there you go.

[Sparkly]

57. But to what extent could the federal government determine state/local salaries?

Would it be a matter of shifting federal funding? Or adding? What's the likelihood?

[jsamuel]

61. It would be probably be like, either you accept our terms (merit pay included) or you don't get extr

a funding at all from the federal government. That is usually how they enforce these things. Make it "optional" but with intense strings attached if you don't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Zip

All they have done up to now is reduce the federal money schools receive. I can't see even a remote possibility of the feds agreeing to pay teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. NCLB doesn't pertain to salaries.

[zulchzulu]

54. Video link and more about what Obama said

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/7/5/151857/2551

"Obama said he would only support a merit-pay approach after consulting with teachers.
"What I want to do is work with teachers," Obama said. "I'm not going to do it to you. I'm going to do with you."

Linda Nelson, the president of the Iowa NEA chapter, said merit pay is an idea that isn't going away.

"We need to be at the table. We need to be a part of that conversation, and that's exactly what Sen. Obama said," Nelson said."

[Connie_Corleone]

59. THANK YOU!

Finally, some context in this thread. Goodness sakes!

[draft_mario_cuomo]

92. zulchzulu continues to deceive on this

The NEA does not support merit pay. Period. He is deceiving people into thinking they suddenly reversed themselves on the issue after Obama came out for it by taking a quote out of context. If a President Obama forces them to accept it naturally they will want to have a say in it, not because they support merit pay but to mitigate the damage it will do. Guess what? They will do the same if Romney and any other Republican proponent of merit pay wins. Does that mean they support Romney on merit pay? :crazy:

As far as Obama playing to non-teachers by claiming he will find a magic, fair way to evaluate merit after 300 years, see post #42... Teachers know exactly why this is a terrible idea.

[Bullet1987]

102. No offense Zulu...but he said the same about healthcare too...

and we saw how that turned out.

[MannyGoldstein]

56. Which More Important? War or Merit Pay?

Even if merit pay is a bad idea, I can't imagine that it is nearly as awful as Mrs. Clinton's vote for an insane war.

[jsamuel]

62. No offence, but I don't think that electing Obama is going to prevent the Iraq War in the past.

[MannyGoldstein]

66. But Voting For The War Clearly Demonstrates Unsuitability For High Office

War is the single most important thing a member of Congress can vote for.

[maximusveritas]

58. What do you think Hillary would say if she was asked

if merit pay should even be considered?
My guess is that she'd say it should be considered.
Notice that Chris Dodd was the only candidate to go after Obama's support of merit pay. Maybe you should support him.

[rufus dog]

63. People, People, People

This is the EXACT same problem that I see at RW boards. Rather than discuss Healthcare it is Moore is a big fat lying pig. The Environment is, Al Gore and the Libs fly around in private jets. Come on, there are some serious issues in Education that need to be addressed and all viable options should be discussed. Because Jeb Bush had an agenda to disguise merit pay as a way to weaken inner city schools does not have any relevance.

[last_texas_dem]

68. Opposition to this idea, at least in my case,

but I'm assuming in the cases of many other DUers as well, has nothing to do with a dislike of Obama and opposing the idea due to his support of it. My overall opinion of Barack Obama is favorable. I also agree that a number of improvements need to be made within the American educational system.

I oppose Obama on this issue because, at least to me, it is a major issue that I will take into consideration when choosing a candidate and I do not consider "merit" pay a viable option to improve education. Just as I would oppose a Democratic candidate who proposed vouchers as an option to improve education, I oppose a Democratic candidate's proposal of "merit" pay because, the way I see it, neither option would improve our educational system.

(And FWIW, I disagree with the idea that because there are teachers- although personally I have yet to meet one- who support "merit" pay that this somehow gives the idea credibility. Returning to the concept of vouchers, there are also teachers who support that ridiculous idea, but I would bet there are very few DUers who would argue that this somehow makes that concept credible.)

[draft_mario_cuomo]

94. That is false. Only one DEMOCRATIC candidate supports this conservative idea nt

[Divine Discontent]

64. try and be more descriptive about what you're upset about in the future

if you post a thread. and yes, I agree with you... Obama's saying stuff I don't like on several fronts.


www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<--- top '08 items & antib*sh stickers!

[TeamJordan23]

67. We need new ideas. Our education system has been broken for decades now.

We are falling behind so many countries in education.

[rufus dog]

69. Agree

But in my interpretation Obama is saying the same thing and including Merit Pay as a possible part of the solution.

Would Merit pay be a bad thing if he pushed through a huge educational project that included pay hikes across the board along with a merit pay plan that was determined by NEA.

The first step in creating a revolutionary change is to put everything on the table and brainstorm, by eliminating all constraints you can often obtain an outcome that could never be envisioned otherwise.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

95. Jeb Bush is that you?

;)

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. No we aren't

Your post is an excellent example of how the public education hating voucher supporters have twisted the conversation and successfully promoted the idea that public education is failing in this country.

[Ethelk2044]

70. I am Glad to see the President of NEA is impressed by Him

Evidently the President disagrees with you.

[UrbScotty]

71. Well, you obviously missed a key part of the story.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/state/story/144499.html

The Illinois senator said it's possible to "find new ways to increase pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them and not based on some arbitrary test score."

Obama said he would only support a merit-pay approach after consulting with teachers. emphasis added

[last_texas_dem]

72. But how do you fairly

base a teacher's pay on the performance of her students? That's what I have yet to hear from anyone who is defending the concept of merit pay. (I'm not aiming this question at your response in particular.)

[Ethelk2044]

73. You lay out goals for them to achieve like any other job.

[last_texas_dem]

77. What sort of goals?

[Ethelk2044]

78. Like Obama said he would meet with the teachers to come up with some goals

They would not be created without their input. Therefore he would meet with the teacher's union and they would work to come up with a list of goals they could both agree on.

[last_texas_dem]

79. I am glad that he would approach instituting the program

in that manner. Too much education legislation has been instituted without keeping teachers and their students in mind. However, in the end, I do not believe there is any fair way to institute "merit" pay, because I believe the concept is illogical on its face.

[elizm]

81. Merit pay based on progress made by the students in that class...

...that year. If a teacher's student's make satisfactory (at least a year's growth) in one year, then the teacher gets a merit increase. It is not that difficult. All students CAN learn if given the right instruction (as a teacher you KNOW this). If the teacher's students do not make expected progress that year, then they get just the normal cost of living increase/step increase. Reward teachers who work hard and go the extra mile. Others can either choose the same, or not.

[last_texas_dem]

83. My problem with the idea is still simply how this progress would be measured

I agree with the idea of rewarding teachers who go the extra mile in theory. I just do not believe that there is a fair or accurate way to measure this, hence my opposition to merit pay. The way I see it, there are simply too many variables to consider, some of which cannot be controlled, that make accurately implementing such a system impossible.

(I should also note that I am not myself a teacher, but I come from a family of many teachers, including my father, mother, sister, and brother-in-law, who definitely have an influence on how I feel about education-related issues.)

[elizm]

86. And I thank you...

For having an open mind about it. I do believe there are ways to measure this...Of course it won't be perfect as that would be impossible. But Obama is asking educators, ourselves, to come up with the plan and I believe we can....and I believe the plan can consider and make exceptions for those variables that cannot be controlled. As a teacher I measure my students' progress every year, using a number of different measures to get an accurate picture. But again, thank you for your frankness and the reasonable discussion. That is something I don't often find here. :toast:

[last_texas_dem]

87. I thank you for the reasonable discussion as well

I consider the ways of measuring student performance that you mention worth taking into consideration, even if I disagree about the overall concept of merit pay. I appreciate Obama's emphasis on the consideration of teachers' views in his overall plan for education, even if I disagree with this particular aspect of his plan.

And thank you for the positive contributions you make by being a teacher. :toast:

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. Most of my students are not capable of making a year's growth every year

If they were, they would not be in special ed.

I also still want to know how we would determine how much of a raise to give the counselor. Or the ESL teacher. Or the Title I teacher.

[elizm]

111. As I said in the other thread...

Why would special ed. kids have to be measured the same as reg. ed.? Perhaps a different standard for them. They CAN learn and they will show some growth. I taught a first grade intervention class this year and a number of the kids were evaluated and identified as special ed. by the end of the year. But in this particular setting, they ALL made very good progress...most of them a year or more. As for the counselors, etc. I don't know...maybe have a different pay scale for them not based on merit? What Obama is asking is that educators themselves come up with the ideas that would be fair....something that has nothing to do with NCLB as Obama is very much against that. Shouldn't we at least entertain the idea?

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. No we shouldn't at least entertain the idea

Our current pay system based on seniority is fair. The problem is that administrators don't do THEIR jobs and get rid of incompetent teachers. That's where our efforts need to be directed. There is no fair merit pay system. I have given several reasons why it just won't work.

Yes we need a different standard for special ed kids. But to do that, we need to get rid of NCLB. It frustrates me that so many teachers pay little attention to politics other than the presidential elections. This election is 16 months away. NCLB is up for renewal in September, just two months from now. Our efforts as educators should be directed at Congress right now instead of worrying about who to support in the presidential election. If you really want change, throw NCLB out and start over with a law that is fair and reasonable. Measure student achievement fairly. To tie our pay into a merit pay system that looks at the current data we gather for NCLB is just ludicrous. So no, we shouldn't at least entertain the idea.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

96. What Obama doesn't say is the basic truth in post #42 nt

[CTLawGuy]

105. the facts just get in the way of the outrage...

NT

[Colobo]

74. The NEA people liked Obama

That's what matters.

[Ethelk2044]

76. I agree.

[elizm]

82. Yep...He gets it. And I'm a teacher. nt

[Ethelk2044]

107. She was a Hillary Supporter before Obama said anything about Merit.

She just wanted to blast Obama. However NEA disagrees with her.

[Colobo]

115. I know.

[Mass]

110. Teachers that I know do not object to merit pay . They are just wishing to find a

fair way to implement this. And many countries have systems that do not rely on test results to judge the teachers, but also on how they teach, how their kids progress from the beginning of the year to the end of the year compared to their possibilities...

But good teachers know there are bad teachers and would like to see their own work recognized.

[mckeown1128]

85. Wow!!! Try to listen to all that he said...

He actually said he would not MANDATE merit pay, but that they should consider all things...including but NOT limited to merit pay.

[snowbear]

103. Bull hockey Cal

First of all, you indicated on one of your threads weeks ago that (in so manner words) you were on the HRC bandwagon.

> I believe that you're very sincere in your feelings regarding this issue.

> I do not believe that you're sincere one IOTA that this issue is what pushed you to Clinton.

-----------------------

Why? When asked by countless DU'ers on here, you failed to respond to their requests for information on how HRC differs from Senator Obama on this topic.

You don't have a clue. For all you know, her take on merit pay may go 3 steps further than Senator Obama's does. You don't know.




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I like you a LOT Cal.. You know that.

But it's so blatently evident WHY some people post these types of threads.

They'd actually be funny if they weren't so sad.

[LWolf]

108. I've never been a fan of either.

The merit pay thing ought to scratch Obama off teachers' short lists, to be sure. I don't support HRC as a logical replacement, but I would hope that teachers quit voting against the best interests of public education by electing Democrats that support neocon public ed objectives.

:shrug:

[Mass]

109. I disagree - He had a lot of guts to say that in the arena he was in.

I have reservations concerning merit pay, not on the principle (there are good teachers devoted to their students and there are really bad teachers who do not care - teachers are fallible as the rest of us, after all), but on how it could be practically implemented (how do you measure a good teacher).

However, there is something to be said about somebody who says something that is sure to be unpopular where it is said.

So, kudos to Obama for that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. So should we also give kudos to Lieberman for supporting the war?

That is unpopular too.