'This won't go away. What happened is much nastier than is being reported'

[rodbarnett]

By Adrian Blomfeld in Nairobi and Andrew Alderson
(Filed: 15/02/2004)




Alex Polier, the twenty-four year old journalist who could end Senator John Kerry's hopes of becoming the next president of the United States is alleged to have had a two-year affair with the front-runner for the Democratic nomination. Last night the rumours were in danger of becoming a full-blown scandal.

"This is not going to go away," one American friend of Miss Polier said yesterday. "What actually happened is much nastier than is being reported."

The allegations come at a crucial time for the senator. Polls showed him leading Mr Bush by 52 per cent to 42 per cent, and aides will be anxious to see if the apparent scandal affects his standing among voters.

Miss Polier, a former intern who also spent some time in 1998 doing work experience at the Houses of Parliament in London, is in Kenya staying with Yaron Schwartzman, her fiance and a member of the country's fashionable young set. The couple have refused to make any comment on her alleged links with Senator Kerry, who is married to Teresa Heinz Kerry, an heiress to the food empire.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/15/wus15.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/02/15/ixportaltop.html

[mmonk]

1. We'll see

It's a UK publication. They are known for sensationalism.

[funky_bug]

2. This will go away... two reasons:

1. She is refusing to comment.

2. The economy sucks and soldiers are dying, which is far more pressing a matter than where John Kerry puts or doesn't put his penis.

[wyldwolf]

3. The way I see it... as I did in Clinton's case...

1. She is an adult.
2. None of my damn business.
3. Didn't with Clinton/won't with Kerry, re: Ability to do the job.
4. Clinton's poll numbers remained high during his ordeal.
5. I'd be willing to bet the American people give even less of a shit now than they did then.

[progressivebydesign]

11. If it's true.. I DO care.

You know, it says a lot about a man near 60 that pursues a young woman, barely out of her teens. It says a lot about a man that would jeopardize his political career for ego gratification. It shows a complete lack of judgement and class to cheat on your wife. It shows even less class to prey on a young woman, that would be a grandchild's age. Regardless of the man, whether it was a friend, family member, or candidate.. I would wonder about his judgement, and think he's a sleazeball. If a 58 year old man worked at a convenience store, and had a 20 year old paramour, that would be the stuff of a Springer episode. If it's true.. then Kerry doesn't have the judgement or the temperment to be President.

[still_one]

18. Why do you assume it is true?

Kerry has directly said it is not true. You prefer to belive Mudock's Sun?

[bearfartinthewoods]

32. why do you assume that the poster assumes it's true

the word 'if' was included.

[Lefty48197]

55. There was an "if" in the subject line

But the message portion made it clear how the poster feels.

[janx]

26. I don't care about who is diddling whom, and many presidents

have been philanderers, BUT--

If there is any truth to this whatsoever, the right wing will unleash its predictable attack if and when John Kerry is the nominee. Not a moment sooner.

That is one very real aspect of this situation that is important.

As one astute poster here pointed out earlier, the American people are simply not going to stand for more of these banal right wing attacks.

[wyldwolf]

50. Ummmm

...a young woman, barely out of her teens.

It shows even less class to prey on a young woman, that would be a grandchild's age.

I would wonder about his judgement, and think he's a sleazeball.

If a 58 year old man worked at a convenience store, and had a 20 year old paramour, that would be the stuff of a Springer episode. If it's true.. then Kerry doesn't have the judgement or the temperment to be President.

I would expect something this virtriolic and full of emotional appeal for "morality" from Ann Coulter.

Sorry. 18 and all bets are off.

[JackRiddler]

58. Ego gratification? Maybe it's fun - for both of them.

First, if Kerry lied on Imus - he's dead. There will be more revelations and they will bludgeon him with it. It's not fair, but it's his own fault. He should have said: MY RELATIONS WITH CONSENTING ADULTS ARE NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS. GET A LIFE.

Does it occur to anyone that the young woman accepting the advances of an old man might herself be a sovereign subject, making her own decisions? An adult?!

Oh, no, she can only be a child-like idiot who is preyed upon. She hasn't gotten enough abstinence and marital sanctity training to know the difference. She's a victim, that's all she can be, and the man who makes the advances is a villain, that's all he can be.

Meanwhile, back to the real world...

If you can show evidence of rape, harrassment (meaning sexual advances repeated on an unwilling person) or abuse of power (i.e., extortion, blackmail or punishment), then there is a real and very bad problem.

I am not buying the "implicit" abuse of power argument that any older man making advances to a younger woman is automatically in the wrong. Look around you, you will see quite a few lower-status men, even older ones, landing in bed with women of all ages. The key variable seems to be sex appeal, and status is only one part of that.

(Now that you've had a look: leave them alone!)

Is there such an implicit abuse of power in many countless cases? Hell, yeah! But how do we distinguish it from a case where there is not an abuse? And what is the cure?

I say it lies in leveling out the power - in achieving real equality among people - not in forcing an unworkable prudish sex code - which will be applied selectively against the secularists, rarely against the pseudo-pious who even if caught get to say, Forgive Me Lawd, I Have Sinned But Now I am Born Again!

Newsflash. People like to have sex. It's fun. (It also generates ego gratification. How dreadful.)

Newsflash. Not all sexual relations are defined by power or the abuse thereof.

Newsflash. Where power is involved, they are still adults and the power may well be acting as an aphrodisiac. He may be a shrivelled lizard to you, but to her he might be the Gallant Count Frankenstein.

What do you think is the right solution? Exile her to Africa? Hound her for interviews? Or just leave them both ALONE, already?

"Adultery." "Cheating." "Betrayal."

The terms make the crime. What's wrong with consenting adults having sex? It's nobody's goddamn business!

How do you intend to cure human nature? People get attracted to each other, they intentionally attract each other, they make advances, and it is not for you to judge them for it, or to set up the acceptable age criteria.

The hilarity is that vital and creative people are far more likely to get into this mess than reliable drudges like Nixon.

THERE ARE REAL ISSUES AT STAKE IN THE PRESIDENCY. STICK TO THOSE.

GET A LIFE, AMERICANS. GROW UP.

[HereSince1628]

59. Most men in positions of authority have had training on sexual harrassment

In such training sessions, the concept of "power" or "authority" are considered to override all other issues when the inappropriateness of sexual advances are considered.

In such training sessions it is made perfetly clear that that the "unempowered" cannot give valid consent because they always remain vulnerable to asymmetries of power that are potentially involved.

Its because of such sensitivity training, advocated by liberals, that many people in the general population do indeed find such relationships troubling.

And moreover, if politicians are allowed to operate in an environment with different rules than everyone else that will merely lead to greater cynicism.

[JackRiddler]

64. Bunch of doubletalk.

First of all, this story is about Kerry and an AP employee, NOT a member of his staff. So if it were true, he would not be a superior in the same organization.

So who defines "power"? And when is sex ever "appropriate"? Someone is ALWAYS more powerful. It's not about suitability but attraction.

YOU SAY:

In such training sessions it is made perfetly clear that that the "unempowered" cannot give valid consent because they always remain vulnerable to asymmetries of power that are potentially involved.

So the "unempowered" are not allowed to fuck above their station, is that it? Stay down with the other powerless.

(What any of this has to do with the functions of the presidency, I'd like to know.)

[saltpoint]

34. Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes.

Sexual smears are witch hunts.

Democrats win in 2004.

Excellent post, wyldwolf.

[ClassWarrior]

4. Yawwwwwnnnnn...

n/t

[kanrok]

5. It certainly won't go away on DU

I don't see it being talked about on any reliable news program. The reason no one on a reputable news show will make it an issue is because it is NOT an issue. It's hearsay upon hearsay, backed up by innuendo, speculation and conjecture. I'm an Edwards guy, and keeping this front and center helps his chances, but frankly, I'm sick and tired of the breathless way some people, here and otherwise, keep repeating this as though it's gospel. Let's leave it be unless there's reason to make it an issue. Let's try and concentrate on what's important for once. Rant over.

[ClassWarrior]

7. Amen.

It's the Bushes, stupid!

[rucky]

You can say the same about PNAC & about 90% of the BFEE antics

that don't get reported in the mainstream media.

The story is stupid & frivolous, but it's here. We know the truth doesn't matter - it's all perception. So are we going to confront this or not?

[kanrok]

39. Point taken, but what, exactly, are we confronting?

I've been reading about his issue, primarily here. It's really the same thing over and over again. My point is, why spend valuable time concentrating on something that has absolutely zero credibility? Can't say the same for PNAC and other BFEE antics though. Let's fight the battles that we can win, and when we ave to address this, if ever, deal with it then. I've already spent more time on this BS than I should have. BTW, none of my republican acquaintances are even mentioning this to me yet. That tells me this has no legs.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[funky_bug]

8. Guilty until proven innocent?

I thought you were against the Patriot Act?

[kanrok]

40. I love the picture you have of Kerry and Clark

I'm an Edwards guy, but that looks like a formidable ticket to me.

[funky_bug]

47. AW Shucks!

I think our fab four needs more of your attitude. Clark, Dean, Edwards, and Kerry (in alphabetical order to avoid partiality.) It's a beautiful thing.

[wyldwolf]

9. You think Kerry has "threatened" her somehow?

bwahahahahahahahahaha!

[Granite]

13. Threatened her somehow?

You have got to be kidding me. I expect this kind of crap from republicans, but not from our own.

Sick.

[funky_bug]

17. What's next, the Kerry Body Count? eom

[wyldwolf]

21. those on the far fringes of both the left and the right ...

...often employ the same tactics.

I've seen some pretty outlandish and completedly unfounded conspiracy theories on DU - but this one borders on slander. If the poster had not said, "..I think", then it would be much more serious.

[brentspeak]

25. Let's just call it for what it is:

SLANDER.

brentspeak

[pagerbear]

33. "...I think"

Actually, his name on the post sort of implied the "...I think" part, IMHO.

[brentspeak]

16. Boy, I see we have some really gullible people

on these boards.

:thumbsdown:

brentspeak

[bearfartinthewoods]

19. is kerry attractive?

i'm flumaxed by any claim of attractiveness but as a hetro male, i guess i wouldn't be the best judge.

[diamondsoul]

62. Not to me but he does have

an air of masculinity and somewhat of experience about him that would probably appeal to a lot of women.

[still_one]

24. I don't talk to the press, or do polls

Even you felt it was "NO" big deal to have such an affair.

After what has happened under Clinton, if it was true, Kerry would have come out and admitted it, and let the campaign go on its way.

Do you have any HARD evidence that there is substance behind the story, or are you so much against Kerry, that you want to join the band wagon. Aren't we inocent until proven guilty, or is this like Joe McCarthy...

[janx]

30. It is not a matter of being "against" Kerry.

It's a matter of wanting to oust Bush in the next election, and if there's any truth to this whatsoever, it would make Kerry the most unelectable of the lot.

[Old and In the Way]

27. Luckily, no one questions your integrity or motivations to post this.

trash about Kerry.

[Brucey]

10. What facts do we have?

It's my understanding that her parents deny there was an affair. They say Kerry was "after her." Was he married at the time? I heard he wasn't. That would make a big difference to voters. Was she working for him? I heard he was trying to get her to work for him, which means she wasn't. That also would matter. What are the facts? Was it just a single adult man trying to make contact with a single woman?

[progressivebydesign]

14. You better HOPE he was married at the time..

if he was simply "chasing" her, and he wasn't married.. she would have been a teenager at the time. This issue is from 2 or 3 years ago when she was 20 (which is bad enough if he was just chasing her). I think we call those, dirty old men.

[wyldwolf]

22. I call them consenting adults

[King of New Orleans]

28. She's 27 now

the tabloid got the first thing wrong.

She graduated from High School in Malvern, PA in 1995. She's also described as being tall and blonde. (This from the Philadelphia Daily News)

The "alleged" affair according to the tabs (who then say there is no proof) was supposed to be from 2001-2003. At that point she was attending Columbia's Graduate Journalism School and after graduating worked for the AP in NYC. Doesn't mean they couldn't commute to have an affair, but the logistics would have been silly.

Thw whole story so far far has been a disjointed mess since Drudge rolled it out there.

[LizW]

23. Kerry has been married to his current wife since '95

This particular woman would have been in her teens when Kerry was last a single man.

Kerry's romantic endeavors when he was single are well known. This is different and is clearly alleged to have happened during his marriage to his current wife.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

12. Dupe. Please find some new information on this if you want to post on it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=365454&mesg_id=365454

[Meldread]

15. If it is true I hope it comes out *SOON*.

That way we still have time to choose a different nominee. I don't want something like this coming out after Super Tuesday or after Kerry gets the Nomination. Better to shoot him down before he rises any higher, than to allow him to pull us down later on with a major scandal.

[bearfartinthewoods]

i'm starting to wonder if that isn't the whole point...

[jpgpenn]

20. 'wont go away" or more like ,..... you wont let it?

:shrug:

[DU GrovelBot]

29. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

RUN C:\GROVELBOT.EXE
 
This week is our first quarter 2004 fund drive.
Please take a moment to donate to DU. Thank you
for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

31. It's the TORYGRAPH!

Owned by Rupert Murdoch! What more do you need to know.

Some people, right here, are grasping at straws. How disheartening.

[Brian_Expat]

35. The story has been in non-Murdoch papers here in the UK as well

It's a serious problem.

Kerry had BETTER not be lying in his denial, or he'll owe all of us a big, big explanation.

[janx]

38. ABC, MSNBC, CNN, the Guardian, local news channels

in the U.S.--all in a span of about three days.

[Padraig18]

41. It was front page in our local paper yesterday.

It has also made all 3 local network news stations.

[RogueTrooper]

51. The Telegraph is not owned by Rupert Murdoch

It is owned by the equally odious Hollings. Rupe owns The Times, The Sun ( nasty tabloid ) and the 24 hour news channel Sky News.

[WiseMen]

36. Can We Stop Probing into Peoples Personal lives. That is a RW practice

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

53. I'm not a freeper sympathizer. I agree with John Kerry's position on G&L

. . . marriage.


"In our interactions with people, a benevolent hypocrisy is frequently required—acting as though we do not see through the motives of their actions."

-Friedrich Nietzsche (1844–1900), German philosopher

[Padraig18]

37. What people are failing to understand about this: the "DOM" issue.

Even if it was an innocent flirtation, Middle America is absolutely disgusted by the 'old enough to be her father'/dirty old man (DOM) thing. THAT is what will hurt us with the voters, even if there was no affair per se.

[bigtree]

42. "What happened is much nastier than is being reported'

This is not going away? This smear serves to define the posters rather than reflect on John Kerry. In my estimation, he looks better and better as his detractors show their true colors by latching on to this republican canard. Incestuous rumor mongerers are now engaged in an incestuous troll for new participants for their demogougic orgy of sleaze. This is nastier than is being reported. But John Kerry looks immaculate in this as his detractors wallow in their defecated mud.


"Once we began to see our images
Reflected in the mud and even dust,
‘Twas disillusion upon disillusion.
We were lost piecemeal to the animals,
Like people thrown out to delay the wolves.
Nothing but fallibility was left us...."

-Robert Frost (1874–1963), U.S. poet.

[janx]

43. Please see posts #26 and #30.

.

[bigtree]

44. republicans! oooo!

I have cultivated my hysteria with pleasure and terror.

-Charles Baudelaire (1821-1867), French poet.

[saltpoint]

52. Nice. Very nice.

It's poetry that's missing in Dubya's administration, too.

"In the prison of his days
Teach the free man how to praise..."

(--from Auden's elegy poem for Yeats)

Thanks, bigtree. Your post made my day.

[pezcore64]

45. I have a Question

Alright.

Has john kerry ever had prostate cancer?
if so, when did he have it?

ive heard people start saying he had it during the illeged time that he was having an affair.... now...wouldnt that kinda hurt his progress in an affair ?

[Brian_Expat]

46. Please. . . stop. . .

Please please please please please stop. I think in pictures. You are frightening me.

[janx]

49. Do us a favor and look it up.

OK?

[Adelante]

54. Times are different now

I've been thinking about this since the other night when a CNN panel discussed this issue in terms of journalism itself, rather than simply broadcasting the scandal. We all have learned a lot since 1992 about how the RW mean machine operates. Armloads of books have been written, such as Conason's "The Hunting of the President," that we know to a point we can predict how this sort of thing unfolds. The press is not handling this, however, in predicatable ways. They don't seem to be willing to swallow the pill this time. The reporting I've seen so far in this country has been fairly responsible and measured. I think they may have learned a deep lesson, finally. This remains to be seen, of course, but they have been played a bit too much and they are embarrassed by it.

More important, the Democratic Party has learned from the past decade just what to expect and to be ready and willing. They're just not going to take this bullshit this time around. Clark's endorsement of Kerry, no matter what you feel about it, was the opening shot of a party that will ultimately unite on a candidate, but is already united on Republican sleaze politics -- the party will not give in on this, will not roll over and play dead, and neither should we. The Kerry smear originated who knows where, but is being compounded from right and left, Republicans and opponent Democrats. Cut this shit out! Just cut it the hell out!

Most important, the American voting public has also had time to be educated on the history of the Clinton era, maybe not as well as DUers, but some have learned the truth. A president's past sex life is not going to play this time around, because we know better. Voters know now how many past presidents, most beloved past presidents, were simply human and flawed, not the faces on Mt. Rushmore Americans grew up with and the heroic stories we were fed. Clinton's approval ratings as an outgoing president were sky high and showed that voters believe it's ABOUT THE JOB, not about blowjobs.

[KoKo]

56. More important, the Democratic Party has learned from the past decade ?

I don't see any evidence that anything has been learned from the Clinton
"Problem." Or the "Stolen Election," or the "Mid-term Election Losses," or the "Media Deregulation," "Corporate Crime" with the silence of our Party on all of this until Howard Dean stood up and spoke the truth about this.

[Adelante]

57. You're off topic

Learned something from Republican sleaze politics and decided not to take it. What you say I agree with.

[no name no slogan]

60. Telegraph == Washington Times

The telegraph is a notoriously right-wing rag with little credibility outside of Tory party offices in well-to-do neighborhoods. IIRC, it is owned by Rupert Murdoch as well.

If you're going to quote a conservative British paper, try the Times of London. At least they have some credibility.

[Mairead]

61. Right, they're Tory, not sensationalist.

[beanball]

63. Sex & Death

some men lie about sex,but there is no denying lying about war is much deadlier.

[Moderator]

65. Locking.....

7. You may not post any material from extreme right-wing sources, specifically WorldNetDaily.com, Newsmax.com, FreeRepublic.com, and their ilk. Material from more "mainstream" conservative writers or sources, such as The Washington Times and Fox News, are permitted as long as the post includes a clear warning about the source. (For example: "WARNING: Please note that this article is written by George Will.")




DU Moderator