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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 02:43 AM
Original message
Poll question: I hate winning
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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. that depends on what you consider a "win"
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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. True
I vote for losers.

The close to 10,000 butchered Iraqi civilians.

The 500+ soldiers in the US Armed Forces who died in a needless war.

The almost 3 million jobs.

The more than 3 million homeless, among which 1,350,000 children.

The 44 million uninsured for health care.

The more than 2 million incarcerated people in US jails.

And I could go on.

That's why I hate to vote for winners.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. At least you're not a loser
Not with a list like that!

Awesome response.
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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Thanks Tinoire
You're not "too bad" yourself, either. I enjoy your enormous tenacity in finding appropriate data and sharing sources to back up your case. You're certainly consistent and integer in your approach, and moreover, I am convinced that we're headed more or less in the same direction, or at least we recognize the same problems, and that we're looking in the same (or similar) generic direction for solutions. It's in the "how" where we sometimes disagree - but that's honest disagreement.

At times, you manage to annoy the snot outtame - yet more often than not that's a compliment for scoring a major point in your argument: "touche!" As a recent example, your list of JFK's Senate votes - that is stuff for which JFK's campaign staff needs to prepare a well-founded rebuttal.

Seriously - I think you're offering a valuable contribution around here (says this not even 2 month newbie) and although I rarely respond directly, I usually do take the time to read your posts.

Okay, enough of this, where can we pick up our disagreements again? Too much work to be done! ;)
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. LMAO! Thank you!
I know we're headed in the same direction and am very much looking forward to the day when we're there.

Disagreements? Lol, I don't know. With a list like the one you had, hopefully not soon and not often. Sorry for being so annoying at times. Just attribute it to my real name ;)

Cassandra

Thank you for the compliment. It means a lot :) I'll be looking for your posts more often though, to tell you the truth, that wasn't the first one I liked. Certain Clark supporters are simply astounding me.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Just another confused voter here
You guys are making me get teary eyed.
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DjTj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Don't forget the 35 million in poverty (nt)
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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I don't understand
All of that was accomplished with loads of help from this side of the aisle.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Well said...
...
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Response of the year
Thank god we vote for losers, NV.

The winners (Halliburton, the MIC, pharmaceutical companies, outsourcing corporations) don't need us.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. As long as there is a lower class of people, I am in it
"As long as there is a lower class of people, I am in it. As long as there is a criminal class, I am of it. As long as there is a soul in prison, I am not free." -- Eugene Debs

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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. Would this represent winning or losing? Kerry: "It's Time To Get Over It"
"As a veteran of both the Vietnam War and the Vietnam protest movement, I say to both conservative and liberal misinterpretations of that war that it's time to get over it and recognize it as an exception, not as a ruling example, of the U.S. military engagements of the twentieth century. If those of us who carried the physical and emotional burdens of that conflict can regain perspective and move on, so can those whose involvement was vicarious or who knew nothing of the war other than ideology and legend."

February 09, 2004
http://www.pressaction.com/pablog/archives/001294.html#001294

'It's Time to Get Over It'
John Kerry Tells Antiwar Movement to Move On

By Mark Hand

Researchers and investigative reporters are fascinated with the neoconservatives, that group of American empire peddlers who turned George W. Bush into a junkie war criminal. A similar group, the New Democrats, has been pushing its own dangerous brand of U.S. hegemony but with much less fanfare.

The leading mouthpiece for the New Democrats' radical interventionist program could be our next president. John Kerry, the frontrunner in the quest for the Democratic Party presidential nomination, has been promoting a foreign policy perspective called "progressive internationalism." It's a concept concocted by establishment Democrats seeking to convince potential backers in the corporate and political world that, if installed in the White House, they would preserve U.S. power and influence around the world, but in a kinder, gentler fashion than the current administration.

In the domestic battle to captain the American empire, the neocons have in their corner the Partnership for a New American Century while the New Democrats have the Progressive Policy Institute. Come November, who will get your vote? Coke or Pepsi?

In fall 2000, PNAC released Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century. It's a blueprint for "maintaining global U.S. preeminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests."

In fall 2003, members of PPI joined with other tough-minded Democrats to unveil Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy, a 19-page manifesto that calls for "the bold exercise of American power, not to dominate but to shape alliances and international institutions that share a common commitment to liberal values."

The New Democrats don't begrudge the Bush administration for invading Iraq. They take issue with the Bush administration's strategy of refusing to invite key members of the international community to the invasion until it was too late. The neocons' unilateralist approach, the New Democrats believe, will ultimately harm U.S. political and economic dominance around the world.

"We are confident that a new Democratic strategy, grounded in the party’s tradition of muscular internationalism, can keep Americans safer than the Republicans’ go-it-alone policy, which has alienated our natural allies and overstretched our resources," the New Democrats say in their foreign policy manifesto. "We aim to rebuild the moral foundation of U.S. global leadership by harnessing America’s awesome power to universal values of liberal democracy. A new progressive internationalism can point the way."

Proponents of "progressive internationalism" are a lock to control leadership positions at the State Department and key civilian posts at the Pentagon in a John Kerry administration. How do we know this? Because these New Democrats obviously ghostwrote Kerry's campaign book, A Call to Service: My Vision for A Better America. Place the Progressive Internationalism manifesto and Kerry's chapter on foreign policy side by side and you'll immediately notice the similarities.

On page 40 of In A Call to Service, Kerry writes: "The time has come to renew that tradition and revive a bold vision of progressive internationalism." What is this tradition to which Kerry refers? As he describes it, Democrats need to honor "the tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership forged by Wilson and Roosevelt in the two world wars and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the cold war."

Now, turn to page 3 of the New Democrats' manifesto. It reads:

"As Democrats, we are proud of our party’s tradition of tough-minded internationalism and strong record in defending America. Presidents Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman led the United States to victory in two world wars and designed the post-war international institutions that have been a cornerstone of global security and prosperity ever since. President Truman forged democratic alliances such as NATO that eventually triumphed in the Cold War. President Kennedy epitomized America’s commitment to “the survival and success of liberty.”
Like the neocons, Kerry was not impressed by France's stance against the U.S. invasion of Iraq. On page 51 of his book, he writes:

"I hope by the time you read this book that the UN has been usefully employed as a partner in the reconstruction of Iraq and that Jacque Chirac has ceased his foolish rebellion against the very idea of the Atlantic Alliance. America, which has always shown magnanimity in victory, should in turn meet repentant Europeans halfway, not ratchet up the badgering unilateralism that fed European fears in the first place."
There's much to digest in this paragraph. Perhaps the most interesting nugget is Kerry's statement that the United States should "meet repentant Europeans halfway." Hmmm, John, could you elaborate on what sins the Europeans committed for which they must repent?

On page 50, Kerry details his beef with Old Europe:

"The Bush administration is by no means the only culprit in the breakdown in U.S.-UN relations over Iraq. France, Germany and Russia never supported or offered a feasible policy to verify that UN resolutions on Iraq were actually being carried out. … Our British, Spanish and Eastern European coalition allies are eager to rebuild European unity."
Throughout the foreign policy sections of the book, Kerry does his best to convince the reader that he would not run from his role as war criminal in chief if elected president.

Perhaps the most repulsive section of the book is where Kerry discusses the Vietnam War and the antiwar movement. On page 42, Kerry writes:

"I could never agree with those in the antiwar movement who dismissed our troops as war criminals or our country as the villain in the drama. That's one reason, in fact, that I eventually parted ways with the VVAW organizations and instead helped found the Vietnam Veterans of America."
If the United States was not a villain in the "drama" of the Vietnam war, then who is to blame for the million-plus Vietnamese who were killed during the 20-year period of naked U.S. aggression that ended in 1975? Surely, John, you don't wish to blame certain communist dead-enders in Vietnam for the carnage?

On the next page, Kerry informs his reader that it's time we stop questioning U.S. foreign policy intentions:

"As a veteran of both the Vietnam War and the Vietnam protest movement, I say to both conservative and liberal misinterpretations of that war that it's time to get over it and recognize it as an exception, not as a ruling example, of the U.S. military engagements of the twentieth century. If those of us who carried the physical and emotional burdens of that conflict can regain perspective and move on, so can those whose involvement was vicarious or who knew nothing of the war other than ideology and legend."
This last passage is probably the most unsettling part of Kerry's book and one that every advocate of the Anyone-But-Bush 2004 election strategy should read before heading to the polling station in November.

In this one passage, Kerry seeks to justify the millions of people slaughtered by the U.S. military and its surrogates during the twentieth century, suggests that concern about U.S. war crimes in Vietnam is no longer necessary, and dismisses the antiwar movement as the work of know-nothings.

Kerry and his comrades in the progressive internationalist movement are as gung-ho about U.S. military action as their counterparts in the White House. The only noteworthy difference between the two groups battling for power in Washington is that the neocons are willing to pursue their imperial ambitions in full view of the international community, while the progressive internationalists prefer to keep their imperial agenda hidden behind the cloak of multilateralism.



Mark Hand is editor of Press Action
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. How about this gem
....

These weapons became conversation topics at American dinner tables during the Iraq war, but candidate Kerry in 1984 said he would have voted to cancel many of them -- the B-1 bomber, B-2 stealth bomber, AH-64 Apache helicopter, Patriot missile, the F-15, F-14A and F-14D jets, the AV-8B Harrier jet, the Aegis air-defense cruiser, and the Trident missile system.

He also advocated reductions in many other systems, such as the M1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, the Tomahawk cruise missile, and the F-16 jet.

In retrospect, Kerry said some of his positions in those days were "ill-advised, and I think some of them are stupid in the context of the world we find ourselves in right now and the things that I've learned since then."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061903.shtml

Is it a victory? Is it a loss? Is it a loss wrapped in the appearance of a victory?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. B..b..but...those weapon systems may be needed
to shoot down the next 747 being hi-jacked with a box cutter. :think:
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BuelahWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Damn! Telling us to "Get over it"
AGAIN! What will he say we have to "get over" next? The paternalism is sickening...:grr:
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
10. I'd Hate Having a False Perception of Winning
Win the battle, lose the war.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. "Win the battle lose the war"
Edited on Sun Feb-15-04 09:26 AM by Armstead
That sums it up quite nicely.

Democrats have won many battles over the last 25 years, but we're losing the war. We get a Clinton in the White House for 8 years, but at the end GWB can waltz in and knock down the Democratic House of Cards with one little kick.

Thus, Mr. Pitt is once again setting up a false dichotomy. The real question that needs to be asked is HOW you win.

If 2004 is just anotehr tepid replay of mini-issues, we might or might not win this battle. But without a REAL agenda for reform the nation and Democrats will once again lost a chance to save the USA from its' steady march towards Corporate Totalitarianism.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. Other:
If I "win" at the expense of my beliefs, my values, my principles, I've lost.

If I "lose" because I kept my integrity and stayed true to my values, my principles, my beliefs, I've won.

So for me, a "win" is when I adhere to what I know to be true; what I know to be the right thing to do.

If enough people happen to agree, or to join me, then it's a "win-win." And a celebration. Applied to the democratic primary, it is a planet-wide celebration.

Either way, I win. And either way, truth will out.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. I'm not sure how to answer
Because I don't think I've ever really experienced this "winning" thing you mention.

But if anyone is interested, I can confirm that losing sucks.
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