Darn it all, Howard Dean! (misleading flyer received in mail today)

[Lefta Dissenter]

Every time I try to like you, you do something like THIS!

Just today I received in the mail a full-page flyer, direct from Dean for America (and paid for by Dean for America).

"One Leader had the courage to oppose the Iraq war even when it wasn't popular. One Leader had the guts to stand up to George Bush even when the polls told him not to. One Leader delivered health care to every child in his state. One Leader named Howard Dean."

(the first bolding is mine, the second is theirs)

OK, so you want to ignore Clark's Senate testimony against the war (which caused Richard Perle to say in response, "I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that, but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."), ignore Al Sharpton, ignore Carol Mosely Braun, and ignore Dennis Kucinich, who couldn't have been more clear from the start????? I really thought Dean was going to stop with these false claims!!!

This is exactly why Dean won't get my vote on Tuesday. :(

[Renew Deal]

1. Let me get this out of the way.

Clark and CMB are out of it. Now flame away.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mattforclark]

54. Nope, it would be

Der Führer.

Dots matter ;)

[Dookus]

2. Par for the course....

I'm afraid.

How people can fervently maintain the fiction that he's honest, a straight-shooter, and a principled man is beyond me.

[PurityOfEssence]

41. Ain it da troot

It's amazing. The only terms by which it's explainable are those of fervent sports-team affiliation or messianic religion.

What's really amazing is how, when this tactic is shown to be a loser, he not only repeats it but ratchets it up a few notches.

I can only imagine what would have happened if he'd taken 6th in Iowa: he probably would have proclaimed overwhelming victory and a mandate, while kissing some unwitting supporter in the front row.

Another interesting thing to note is how, when Clark got desperate in Tennessee and started repeating the Dean lie about the tax-cut votes, he lost ground too.

Many have been saying this exact same thing about Dean for the last year, but some will never believe ill of him. Jim Bakker was still getting money in jail from the very people he fleeced.

[Sean Reynolds]

3. I don't understand what you mean?

There was one leader that spoke out against the Iraq War and that has delivered health care to every child in his state. Last I checked, no other candidate has done that.

[Dookus]

5. a simple reading of the text

shows he's not claiming that only one person did both. He claims to be the only leader who spoke out against the war.

That is patently untrue. Scores of leaders did.

[Sean Reynolds]

16. And only two are running for president.

Dean and Kucinich. But how effective would the ad be if he cut in and said that only he and Dennis spoke out against the war?

Not very effective at all. Dookus, I'm sorry but you seem to not understand how the political game works. You're trying to get VOTES. If you continually give the oppenent air time, it aint gonna happen/

[Dookus]

20. LOL...

So your position is that it's ok to continue lying about something you've been called on repeatedly in past?

He has no business making such claims - it's a lie, it's been pointed out to him that it's a lie. If being honest hurts the point he's trying to make, he should reconsider the point itself, NOT how he phrases it.

[democratreformed]

9. The two statements are not linked together with AND

Also, LEADER covers a lot of ground. Honestly, I wouldn't know if another LEADER had done both of those.

[Lefta Dissenter]

11. There is no 'AND '

"One Leader had the courage to oppose the Iraq war even when it wasn't popular." <--that's a PERIOD there. Then it goes on with, "One Leader had the guts to stand up to George Bush even when the polls told him not to." Well, that's vague enough that ANY of the other candidates could argue against it. Then it goes on, "One Leader delivered health care to every child in his state." Well, that's the one statement there that may be true, though I don't know the records on health care for those who 'have states.'

[HFishbine]

36. Try this

One leader served in vietnam.
One leader is from the south.

Is it any less clear who that is because I didn't use "and?"

[Edwards4President]

51. Yes, but that's because each sentence, standing alone describes only one

candidate in the race.

Now, if John Edwards had said:

One leader's name is John.
One leader is from the south.

The fact that Edwards is the only southern Senator in the race named John would not make both statements true since the first sentence is inaccurate because it applies to Kerry as well.

That is why the claim in this flyer is wrong. Dean may be the only one in the race who both opposed the war AND delivered health care to children in his state, but he did not make such a claim. He claimed that he is the ONLY leader who opposed the war and that he is the only leader to have delivered such health care. The first statement is not true, as Dean himself has acknowledged. Thus, it is a lie, knowingly put forth.

[Kahuna]

34. He did not deliver healthcare to every child. He delivered..

it to the ones who didn't have it already. I have no idea what percentage that was. Do you? When we know this number we will then know the truth.

[krkaufman]

35. Gotta work on the boolean logic

The mailer didn't say "one leader that <a> and <b>." It said "one leader that <a>." Which is false and immediately short-circuits the argument. A lie in the first sentence negates the mailer.

[HFishbine]

42. Gotta work on vocabulary

If is say I am one player on a team, does that mean I'm the only player?

[krkaufman]

48. Ummm... no.

> If is say I am one player on a team, does that
> mean I'm the only player?

Ummm.. no. 'cause "team" indicates multiple players.

If, however, someone were to say... "One Player won the game" when refering to any team sport (basketball, football, baseball, etc), I'd have to say that that someone is full of shit.

[HFishbine]

49. Logic flaw

by adding "who won the game," you add an exclusive qualifier to the equation that did not exist in the Dean flyer. The correct analogy would be "HFishbine, one player who scored a touchdown" -- hardly an indication that I was the only player to score a touchdown.

Here's another example, I am one voter who will not vote for a warmonger. Am I the only one?

[Lefta Dissenter]

58. No, it would be

One Player scored a touchdown.

One Player named Fishbine.

That leads me to believe only one touchdown was scored.

You're skewing it by adding the word, "who."

[quinnox]

4. His campaign manager did the same thing on CNN the other day

Ignoring Kucinich has been a long time pattern with Dean campaign.(remember the misleading Dean ad that Kucinich was pissed about?)

Might explain why Kucinich teamed up with Edwards instead of Dean.

[Nazgul35]

40. So Dean is the only one ignoring Kucinich

Did I miss the edwards and Kerry flyers touting Dennis' policy initiatives?

Are you also willing to call Kerry on his "taking on the special interests" or Edwards' "I'm not part of the establishment" claims....

Or do you just like to kick Dean?

I just love all the purists we have in this Party...willing to throw stones while ignoring the glaring inconsistancies in their own candidates...

But hey, whatever's expediant.....we understand....

[HFishbine]

43. Did Edwards

ever give Kucinich props on national TV for his vote against the IWR? Dean did:

"Only Dennis Kucinich up here had the courage to vote against that resolution."

(Des Moines Debate: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A10799-2003Nov24¬Found=true)

[mac2]

6. Dean is killing himself

Dean has lied about the war since the beginning. Some of us were listening. We don't need a candidate that lies to start off.

Do you think the folks in his campaign believe this?

[HFishbine]

45. Was Dean lying when he said

"Clearly, Ambassador Moseley Braun, Dennis Kucinich, Bob Graham, Al Sharpton and myself opposed the war right from the beginning," during the Congressional Black Caucus Debate in Detroit?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A21551-2003Oct26¬Found=true

[Edwards4President]

52. No - he didn't lie that time. He DID lie in the flyer.

[Capn Sunshine]

7. What's Your problem?

All of that is true. Why does everone have such a problem with this?

Dean is a leader, Kucinich doesn't qualify due to his polling.
It wasn't Dean that sold his votes to Edwards in IA....

[janx]

10. Not only that, but it seems that the General has reversed course

by endorsing Kerry, the pro-IWR voter.

[krkaufman]

37. Disagree. Clark remains "on course"... REMOVAL OF CHIMPY.

If another qualified candidate were still in the race, he might have delayed his endorsement or gone with another candidate. As things stand, he really only had the one choice.

Don't have time/patience to provide further argument, at present; just couldn't let the slander sit without any comment whatsoever.

[Dookus]

12. Does Robert Byrd count as a leader?

[democratreformed]

14. Kucinich doesn't qualify because of his polling????

This presidential primary race takes away the fact that DK was a leader both in his state and in congress for many years????? You guys are killing yourselves.

[plurality]

21. How the fuck did Dean lead when it came to the war?

Did he organize protests against the war?
Did he organize votes against the war?
Did he do anything about the war besides shooting off his mouth?

I bitched about the war too, does that make me a leader?

Kucinich actually ORGANIZED against the war. That makes him more of a leader on the issue than Howard Dean can consider himself.

Any jackass can shoot his mouth off about something, it takes a LEADER to get off his soapbox and do something about it. Kucinich actually did something, Dean didn't do shit.

[saracat]

31. Dean Polling

Excuse me, but Dean isn't doing that much better than DK in the polls at the moment, and nationwide too.According to the polls and your rationale, Dean isn't a leader either!

[fujiyama]

32. I thought Dean...

was urging voters NOT to look at the polls?

Sorry, but Dean's marginalizing of Kucinich's campaign was completely unecessary - and somewhat arrogant.

[Anwen]

8. Just out of curiosity

Were you really considering to vote for Dean before you received this? Or is this another opportunity to bash Dean all over again?

Just wondering :)

[madfloridian]

13. Just thinking the same thing.

;)

[Lefta Dissenter]

19. This is what he has been doing from the beginning.

and I said that it's this sort of behavior that makes me unable to vote for him. HE is the one who brought it up again by sending out flyers he KNOWS are untrue. Go ahead and search my past posts - I have virtually NEVER bashed Dean. I have tried to like him. There have been times that I HAVE liked him, but then, as I said, just when that happens, he does it AGAIN!

I think the voters have the right to know that he is perpetuating these lies, even when he's been called on it. I feel like there are a lot of voters in Wisconsin looking for their candidate right now, since Clark left, and we have to vote in just a few days. I don't think it's right to try to win those votes by LYING.

[Anwen]

24. If he has been doing this from the beginning,

and you have liked him in the past, why the sudden outrage that he said it again?

I didn't accuse you personally on bashing Dean -- I can honestly say that I've never seen you say anything negative about him. But it seems like I see one of these exact same "Dean LIED!!" threads every other day. This just seems like a golden opportunity for everyone to beat a dead horse.

[mmonk]

15. Not really worth fusing about

No, he wasn't the only one, but he came out into the race very hard on it and became known for it.

[DjTj]

17. "One Leader" is not "ONLY One Leader."

When he was criticized in the past, he has said that he was the ONLY one to blah blah blah...

It is true that one leader named Howard Dean did all these things...

One leader named Dennis Kucinich also opposed the war. One leader named Wesley Clark also testified against the war. This flyer doesn't deny that there were several leaders against the war, it just points out that one of them was named Howard Dean.

[HFishbine]

47. Thank you

At least someody recognizes that words have meaning.

[LizW]

18. So

because Dean annoys you by saying he was the only leader to oppose the war when it wasn't popular, you'll now vote for someone who does support the war?

[Lefta Dissenter]

23. I won't vote for someone who

misrepresents himself and others. I can understand the difficulty in making a decision on the war, particularly when the early decisions and votes were based on information that has turned out to be lies (courtesy of the current administration). I have an easier time reconciling a vote for the IWR than I do LYING about yourself and others.

And, frankly, I have not decided who I am going to vote for on Tuesday. So far, it's going to be Wes Clark.

[HFishbine]

50. One voter who won't vote for Howard Dean

Good thing he's the only one. (That's the logic, right?)

[Capn Sunshine]

22. I'm glad Howard Dean helps you find a rationale to vote Kerry

I guess all of you ex-Clark folks need something to hold onto...

[frustrated_lefty]

25. That was unkind and unnecessary

Dean doesn't need mean-spiritness like this. I understand what spurred you on, but that was unnecessary.

[Lefta Dissenter]

26. That's the problem, Capn

I'm LOOKING for the candidate to vote for! After Clark left, I felt like I was back to square one with deciding who I would vote for. Just because Clark has endorsed Kerry doesn't mean I'm going to vote that way.

I have requested information from all of the remaining candidates, and I was trying to take a new look at all of them. And then Dean pulls this crap AGAIN.

You may feel that I'm being overly sensitive, but you know, if he wants votes, he's got to appeal to some overly-sensitive people in addition to the gung-ho supporters he's already got.

[no name no slogan]

27. Unfortunately, it's nothing new from Dean's campaign

they've been sending these fliers out for quite a while. Even in NH, when they KNEW they were wrong, they continued to send them out.

Unfortunately, some hard-core supporters insist that if the wording is properly parsed, it is NOT false. You know, like when up is down, black is white, etc.

I guess I should not be suprised that these have been rolled out yet again, even though the campaign has been called on their validity numerous times. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and all that...:eyes:

[Desertrose]

29. maybe Dean can't afford new ones & has to use up all the old

pamphlets... :eyes:

I can't think this will help him....just when I start to feel for the man, he does this crap again. We already have someone in the WH who lies/misleads us...how great can it look to have Dem(s) who are doing the same thing.

Thats what I love about Dennis Kucinich...all truth all the time. I can count on it absolutely!
:loveya:

Peace
DR

[tedoll78]

28. Damn..

And I am/was as big a fan of Dean as one can get.

But, wanting to beat Bush, I have a brain. Dean needs to stop kamikazi-ing John Kerry.

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[Robb]

30. You're totally misinterpreting it

Clearly he's talking about ALL the candidates:

"One Leader had the courage to oppose the Iraq war even when it wasn't popular."

Kucinich.

"One Leader had the guts to stand up to George Bush even when the polls told him not to."

I'm not sure who this is... :shrug:

"One Leader delivered health care to every child in his state."

Clearly this one is Dean, although technically it's almost every child.

"One Leader named Howard Dean."

And this one obviously refers to Clark. :silly:

[retyred]

38. The man is a liar!

No need for further clarification.....He's a liar, period!



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[Paulie]

44. ABD&K baby!

Dean is a piece of work, and Kerry is a piece of work. Different reasons, same outcome.

Gak, I'd vote Edwards before these two. <Shiver> :puke:

[Southsideirish]

53. Unfair and inflammatory - its a question of semantics and you

know it. He didn't say "the only leader" - he said "one leader". You are deliberately distorting his words and I resent it.

[JVS]

56. Yeah a liar who's ad is factually correct.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

46. Steve McMahon was also on CNN stating this. He was corrected by Woodruff

of all people. I was shocked that she actually corrected him.

[JVS]

55. Since there is no "only" the ad is perfectly true.

It isn't Deans job to plug Kucinich, Sharpton, or whatever candidate some people wish to believe was anti-war (Edwards, Kerry, Lieberman...)

Also, was Clark even a leader at that time? He was a retired General who had yet to become a candidate.

[dansolo]

57. But Clark wasn't a candidate then

Taking an unpopular opinion is not the same thing when you don't have the spotlight of being a presidential candidate.

[Moderator]

59. locked

inflamatory.