Clark has left this supporter with a bad taste :(

[digno dave]

The behavior of WClark the last month or so has really dissapointed me. From the oversensitive response to the "demotion" remark due to a Kerry victory to his smooch-fest with John Kerry the other day. This has turned me off a bit to the man.
For starters, i supported him from the beginning. I was one of the Draft Clark supporters. I donated about $200 in cash and stamps to his cause.
I think he has an extremely well-rounded grasp of all the issues. He is obviously very smart. It seems, however, that character issues have come into question.
While campaigning he was anxious to pander to his audience. He wasn't very coy about it. At first i attributed it to his lack if political experience and skills in political discourse. It seemed to get worse, however, as the campaign went on.
At his worst, he seems like a smarmy little kiss-ass. At his best, a sensitive man with a profound gift in logic and problem-solving.
I don't know...maybe i have become dissillusioned all together and it has affected my judgement towards him. Maybe my dissapointements in his gaffes while campaigning morphed into an overzealous critique of the man. I like to think you judge people by the character of their children, and Wes Jr. is a respectful and seemingly genuine person, so maybe I AM wrong.

[MrSlayer]

I think you are.

He has never come across to me as anything but genuine. He may have made mistakes from being a political novice but I think that only stems from his honesty. I believe in General Clark.

[BootinUp]

1. Tough time for all Clark supporters

I think every long time Clark supporter must have asked questions to him/herself these last couple weeks. But if you find yourself caught up in it emotionally then realize that making some of these judgements on his character is going to be colored by how you are feeling.

Once I watched the Charlie Rose interview last night and the Endorsement today, I felt a lot better about the future because I believe Clark will get to play an important role, perhaps as a V.P. or a cabinent member.

I never thought of Clark as pandering at the town hall meetings. What I remember is the occasional question where he was brutally honest "That's just the way it is" kind of answer.

There is no question Clark puts a good deal of pressure on himself to excel in whatever he does. In high pressure situations and add fatigue to that, and it did not surprise me when Bob bigmouth Dole, got Clark's goat so to speak in the post Iowa interview. He's human too you know.

As to the endorsement itself, the idea is for us to beat those bush bastards (sorry Mr. Magistrate), and Clark did the right thing here. His campaign is over. Many Clark supporters were able to go and support Kerry today because of that endorsement. I am still a little slow in making the transition, and in truth I will be voting Clark on March 2nd. But the fact is, I feel much better about things because Clark is not just hung out to dry, he can go on and fight still and get support from the party.

Think about it a little, cheers

[Adelante]

2. Jim4

Glad you're feeling a bit better. :)

[BootinUp]

3. thanks

time to call it a night... :)

[HuskerDem]

36. Hey WESDEM

I have a little brighter copy of that sig, if you wanna link or steal it your perfectly welcome.

[BootinUp]

37. I grabbed it thanks, called it "Two Patriots"

:)

[Adelante]

44. Thanks, Husker!

I kind of like mine. It shows my sense of things. Very nice of you to offer, though. :)

[countmyvote4real]

4. Nicely said. I feel the same way here. n/t

[HuskerDem]

5. I was hurt and disappointed when he dropped but I've met him, spent 2 days

with him. Please believe me when I say that his prime objective has always been to remove Bush with a DECENT democratic candidate. He, you, I and hundreds of thousands if not more wanted that candidate to be Wesley Clark.

He was and is infuriated to see the military being used like pawns in a game for W's personal gain and glory. Men and women DYING for a draft dodgers fancy. His hatred of Bush is intense and pure.

Wesley Clark's love of his country and dedication to service are simply beyond reproach. With his mind and charisma he could have left the military so very long ago for much better earnings and greater appreciation. He stayed because of his love of this country and that includes you and me.

I think he did pretty damn well for someone who hadn't run for anything else since grade school. How do we curse him for not being a perfect politician when he was learning on the job? I don't think we've seen the last of him. I pray not.

Maybe you are in the anger stage of grief.

Think of this: You helped bring into the Democratic party and onto the national stage a candidate who PROVED that the military does not belong to the republicans. You helped to dispel the ridiculous notions that Democrats are not patriotic or concerned about national security. You helped raise a four star middle finger to Karl Rove and team Bush's plans to paint us all as weak little peacenik America haters.

Screw 'em.

[flpoljunkie]

12. Part of your post bears repeating:Wes Clark performed invaluable service

to the Democratic party and the country. Very well said.

"Think of this: You helped bring into the Democratic party and onto the national stage a candidate who PROVED that the military does not belong to the republicans. You helped to dispel the ridiculous notions that Democrats are not patriotic or concerned about national security. You helped raise a four star middle finger to Karl Rove and team Bush's plans to paint us all as weak little peacenik America haters. "

[digno dave]

20. clark

I am glad he ran. he brought some things to the Democratic primary process that therwise would not have been there.
As said above, he came across best in the town hall meeting type forums.

[Adelante]

32. That's very true

He was always at his best interacting with voters, giving his thoughts, and answering questions. It was the stump speech thing that stumped him. He's not a natural at that, but he sure gave it an all out try, and several times I watched him bring it home. But the town hall setting was the absolute best for him.

[HuskerDem]

33. Town Hall meeting were his strongest because

that's how he was the best, in person. He LOVES PEOPLE, that comes through like gangbusters when you see him in person and with regular ordinary people.

Folks often forget that the military is actually packed to the gills with regular ordinary human beings, many more than the ivory tower types. It was with regular folks that General Clark spent most of his time in the service often by choice. Senators, Congress and Governors live in fairly insular worlds, surrounded by people with like ambitions and pretty isolated from the rest of us and ordinary experience most of the time. The military is filled with the rest of us.

[Alinsky]

6. Clark is a sellout

I gave Clark $100 because I thought he would ask not what his country can do for him but I thought Clark was asking what can Clark do for his country.Some were critical of him because he was a Republican. So what if he was I would of rather had a Republican turned liberal, then a liberal like Kerry turned Republican Democrat.

I picked Clark because he was the only one that can win against Bush in 2004.Bush will win against kerry in 2004 by 74% to 26%.

Alot of Democrats had better get used to being liberals or if you don't like that word progressive because the Democratic Party is finished.

Dissent and non-violence is the most powerful force in the universe.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alinsky]

10. Wrong

I am not bitter, I am angry at Clark for not fighting. The $100 I spent means nothing to me, though it is for me alot of money.

Why in the hell would he support Kerry look at his record as a so called Liberal Democrat.

Kerrys so called great liberal Record from a counterpunch article:

It's deplorable. Three-hundred-seventeen bills introduced. Seven passed. And four of those were ceremonial ones -- designating special days. Voted for the horrific Telecommunications Act (in fact, led the charge); voted for the illegal war/occupation; voted for the Patriot Act (in fact, helped draft parts of it when it was first drafted under Clinton); brags about voting for class war on poor moms and kids--Clinton's welfare "reform" -- need I go on?

http://www.counterpunch.org/donnelly02092004.html

[pop goes the weasel]

14. It's the initials-sake thing

A Senator from Massachusetts with a shabby legislative record and the initials "JFK." Why, what good could a person like that do in the White House? ;)

I'm supporting DK through the convention, but I just don't have the dislike of Kerry that some people here do. He's not as good as he could be, but he at least has a memory of what it is to be progressive and peace-seeking. And he hasn't repudiated that memory. There's a good chance DK can re-awaken it by continuing his challenge. If you are worried about Kerry, support Kucinich. Make the baby boom left remember who they are!

[Kinkistyle]

15. When its Kerry vs. Bush in the General Election who will you vote for?

Ralph nader perhaps?

[democratreformed]

19. You wanted him to fight the American people? The very people he

proclaimed to be fighting FOR?

[democratreformed]

18. Clark could not win against * b/c the voters would not give him the chance

It's as simple as that. I still stay the momentum that Kerry has cannot be stopped. Clark had to face the reality that he was NOT going to be allowed by voters in the Dem primaries to even face * in November. Instead of hanging on to something that was NEVER goint to happen, he chose to take the fight onward - to a place where he CAN fight *. He is doing the only thing he can - trying to keep his voice and his ideas before the people and the Dems and trying to carve a place for himself to have some influence - wherever that may be. I can't fault him for that. Nope, I sure can't.

[goclark]

69. Clark ForEVER

I totally agree. He gave it his all and now he has to play politics.
His other choice would be to back out and go look at his new grandchild,relax,make more money and enjoy life.
I think we are blessed to have him still wanting to fight in the best way he can to get Bush out of office.

He is a smart man , he knows that "You may not win the battle but you can still win the war." So, he is still fighting for all of us.

[digno dave]

70. uh huh

You are probably right. Politics, unfortunately, can scratch away at a person's dignity at times.

[jpgpenn]

9. This is something for you to wrestle with.

I see your opinion to be in the minority!

[digno dave]

21. nice person

gee, thanks for the positive persuasion.

[jpgpenn]

What is this Romper Room?

I'm here to "persuade" you about anything.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guava Jelly]

11. I think a man who was in charge of

stopping the slaughter of millions of kosovars.
Stood up for michael moore when the media were treating him like dog crap.
Clark may not be a tall man but his character and love of country make him a giant
The man has earned my respect.
the only bad taste i get from this is the media who marginalized him.

[texasmom]

17. Thanks. That's how I feel.

I'll be eternally grateful that he got into the race and gave it his best shot. The cards were stacked against him due to his late start and lack of staff. He worked his heart out against attacks from the right *and* the left *and* the media. People continually questioned his loyalty and sincerity, and the press ridiculed his lack of political experience.

He stands tall to me, too, and I'm so proud he's on our side!

[bravejet69]

28. A Forever Clark Supporter

texasmom, I agree with all you said and more. I have never had a candidate that I felt so proud to support as I did Gen. Clark. He is so genuine, and really cares for our country. I will vote for him in the Florida Primary, but I will vote for Kerry in the GE. The transition is certainly not easy, but I hope to see General Clark's name on the ballot again running for POTUS at another date in the future.

Bless you Wesley Clark and family for all your sacrifices.

[texasmom]

31. Welcome to DU, bravejet69!

:hi:


I'll be voting for Clark in Texas on March 9, too.

[juajen]

41. Me, too

Clark is wonderful and I will never regret supporting him. I've never written anybody in before. Anything complicated about it?

[texasmom]

43. I'm expecting him to be on our ballot

since we paid $$ for him to be there and submitted it before the deadline. In 2000 I voted in the Republican primary (ours is an open primary state) so I could vote for McCain against Bush in Bush's home state. McCain had dropped out long before, yet he was still on the ballot.

I think Clark will still be on the ballot wherever his supporters/campaign collected enough signatures or paid to get him on the ballot beforehand.

Don't know anything about the write-in process--just in case you have to do so. I don't think it would be complicated with a regular ballot. With touchscreen they must have a procedure.

[newyawker99]

67. Hi bravejet69!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[DemLikr]

13. Maybe Clark is a exceptional, talented, imperfect HUMAN BEING

with all the modulations attached thereto.

I'm sure you would have found Abraham Lincoln below your impossible standards of personal perfection. Geesh...no wonder many of our best and brightest flee from public service.

Oh, and...this election isn't about YOU.

[digno dave]

22. relax

sorry for my desire to solicite thoughtful responses to my concerns.
Lighten up.

[NNN0LHI]

16. Have you tried Listerine? Works for me n/t

[BootinUp]

24. lol

[digno dave]

26. Bad breath may be your problem, but not mine

Next time i'll be sure to blindly follow my first inclination without question, LIKE YOU!!!

[Adelante]

23. Maybe you should read the Boston Globe

This is what Clark said to the Boston Globe after he entered the race:

"I like John Kerry. If John Kerry wins and he becomes president, I'll be happy. The problem is, and the reason I'm in this race, is because I don't think John Kerry's going to win. He just hasn't taken off. He's not connecting. My wife said early on: `I like that man. He's a senator. He talks well. He's really smart. Why do they keep coming to you? Why don't they go to John Kerry?'"

If John Kerry were winning last year, Clark would have endorsed him and not run himself. Smoochfest entirely in keeping.

[union_maid]

25. That seems to sum it up for me

I'm glad it worked out that Clark did run, even if it did get cut short. I'm glad we got a chance to know more about him and I hope that this does mean he'll be an important force to be reckoned with on the national stage for a long time to come. Sounds to me like his endorsement of Kerry was totally sincere and that's certainly good enough for me.

[girl gone mad]

27. Thanks for posting that here.

I was trying to find that quote yesterday to post in yet another thread accusing Clark of being a sellout and "sucking up" to Kerry for the VP slot.

My impression of Clark is that he is sincere. It's obvious that he wants people to like him, that he wanted to win people over on the campaign trail, but I don't believe for a minute that he was willing to compromise his positions or pander to an audience just to win votes. He was cowed a bit by some early mistakes and perhaps that madde him more cautious than he should have been.

[WiseMen]

30. This is the Correct Historical Record. Clark supported Kerry before Draft

When Clark was drafted many in the country and in the Party leadership thought Dean had cut Kerry's legs from under him and Dean would easily win Iowa and NH.

[Lefta Dissenter]

35. Jersey, thank you for posting that!!!

I'm still wrestling with decisions and disappointment, and that reminder helps me a lot.

I will be voting for Clark this Tuesday, and since I decided that I'm going to go ahead and do that, I've felt a lot better. It will give me time to do some healing before I start working my ass off to help whoever finally gets the nom.

I am SO grateful to Wes for what he has done, if for no other reason than for the amazing people I have met through this campaign.

:loveya:

[Adelante]

53. Oh, goodness

:cry:

and

:loveya:

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[arewethereyet]

34. but this was already a known

ou don't get 4 stars without a lot of sucking up to political figures (thats also true for Powell and all the rest) and if you do all that and still don't make your way to the joint chiefs... well, you just weren't good enough at it.

[notbush]

39. Many original Clark supporters

left the Clark team after Clark brought on the "professionals"

[digno dave]

40. yep

I never really heard any of the fall-out from that. If that's the case, then how come there is that supposed Clark Society or whatever being formed by his originals drafters?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemCam]

47. Starry-eyed IN SPITE OF the 4 stars....

Those stars made this total Clarkie cringe in the night. I had waxed long and loud about the military...and really had to choke those stars down.

It was the message that I fell in love with...and still am. There's not another candidate out there that captivated me the way Wes did.

If people can love Howard Dean...or Dennis Kucinich...or for gods sake...John Edwards...why is it so difficult to understand that some of us saw somehting in Clark that some of you obviously couldn't see.

It wasn't the stars...it was something much broader than that.

Now...my primary is over...have fallen in love and voted for Wes...and now I'm falling in line for Kerry. But...it will never be love.

[arewethereyet]

56. clearly it happened but I read his "message" and was unmoved

I thought it was rehash and poorly done at that but given the slapdash nature of his campaign it was the best that could be put together.

Mind you, I see Kerry's as being little superior but better crafted.

[BootinUp]

57. This seems a bit spiteful

If that is your honest opinion, I conclude you never gave Clark, or his message, the time of day.

[arewethereyet]

58. conclude what you wish

his platform was unattainable and whats the value of that ?

[BootinUp]

60. Unattainable in what sense?

Why?

[arewethereyet]

61. Passage through a Republican Congress

as an example, there is no way that his tax plan would draw more than a laugh.

He should have learned more about Capital Hill in his time inside the beltway to know this. As it cannot be said that he was not clever enough to learn it I can only conclude it was populist rhetoric intended to coax the unwary into his camp.

Go down the line and the same concept holds true.

[BootinUp]

62. Before I ask which

candidate you support, I will simply say that if Clark got a mandate for his tax plan then some progress would have been made in that direction.

So which candidates plan was going to have Republicans swooning?

[arewethereyet]

63. swooning ? None. But Edwards' is measured and reasonable.

Looks like Edwards has a better mandate building at present.

[BootinUp]

64. curious

what are you basing this tax plan mandate on?

[digno dave]

65. Clark's Tax Plan was fine

I think his tax plan was an attempt to simplify the tax code. What American wouldn't entertain that prospect? Now is not the time to be concerned about politicing to the congress. You think Kerry's health care plan isn't going to get pulverized in the Congress? Please.
You have to start with a concept and mold it as it makes its way through Congress. That goes for any policy stance.

In fact, I wish Clark had focused his stump speeches and TV appearacnes more on domestic policy instead of harping on his military credentials over and over and over and over and over. He had persuasive positions on domestic polices, but he never got around to spelling them out properly.

[Adelante]

52. Whatta riot!

You don't make it to the Joint Chiefs by butting heads with the Pentagon and standing up for what you believe in, no you damn well don't. :D

[arewethereyet]

59. right you are

you get fired insted.

Reasonable people make a case, and accept the decisions of their superiors and don't go whining about it elsewhere that it didn't go their way.

[robbedvoter]

42. Which supporter were you exctly? I don't remember any supporting from you

I OTOH, I am an actual supporter and couldn't be prouder and happier. So, you keep your media pablum for yourself - no way you take anything from the man. We, the actual supporters know better. And the rest of you - your loss.
Nice try!
We'll follow the old man wherever he wants to go
As long as he wants to go opposite to the foe
We'll stay with the old man wherever he wants to stay
As long he stays away from the battle's fray
Because we love him, we love him
Especially when he keeps us on the ball
And we'll tell the kiddies we answer duties' call
With the grandest son of a soldier of them all

[Auntie Bush]

45. BRAVO! Bravo! Bravo!

I'll follow anywhere he wants to go. He knows what's best and I TRUST him! Thank God he ran...we really got to know him and fall in love with him and I'll never forget what he and Gert have sacraficed for our country. Anyone who doesn't believe that...doesn't know what they are talking about...plain and simple! End of conversation!

[digno dave]

49. Sorry i couldn't make a personal appearance at your doorstep

Don't question my allegiances.
You have no idea what i have up to during the last 5 months.
Blind, unquestioned allegiance is what the * supporters are guilty of, not me.

[jpgpenn]

48. Leave this post die already!

[digno dave]

50. still in diapers, apparently

You said it yourself, "Romper Room".

[Adelante]

54. Aw, gee

I'm having fun. :D

[incapsulated]

51. You know

It's very difficult for me to take seriously a so-called long time supporter calling Clark a "swarmy little kiss-ass" and questioning his "character".

I certainly would never consider myself a "supporter" of anyone who I would call such names with a straight face. I question both your support and your point in bashing a candidate who is now out of the race. What is your point? You no longer could support him even if you wanted to. Beyond the Kerry endorsement, he is no longer an issue in this race. Do you feel some need to rub salt in the wound of those of us who worked so hard on his campaign, believed in the man and are still hurting over the loss?

*shakes head*

[digno dave]

55. Matt Drudge School of Selective Quotational Attribution

"At his worst, he seems like a smarmy little kiss-ass. At his best, a sensitive man with a profound gift in logic and problem-solving."

That was my quote, to be exact. Hardly an all-out condemnation.

I think it is fair to say that the longer a person is a candidate the more and more people get to know about him. I don't think that assumption is a leap of logic. It is a fluid process. The more exposure you have to a person the more or less you are likely to care for him/her. Any steadfast level of affinity or hatred, over time, is rare.
Put simply, about 3 months ago I supported the man, lets say, 95%, with 100% being the standard for an imaginary PERFECT CANDIDATE. I would say now that support is down to 55%-60%. Heck, given the opportunity i may stil vote for him. I don't know. All I was trying to do was solicite responses to the concerns I had about the man. Instead I've come away with concerns about the lack of thoughtful discourse by SOME on this thread.

[incapsulated]

66. No, that doesn't wash

Clark is no longer in the race, so any "concerns" you might have are way beside the point. I never said Clark was perfect, but he doesn't deserve to be called names or have his character questioned by so-called supporters after he has already left the race. What point is there other to antagonize people who are already smarting after having their candidate lose and have to drop out, after working for months on his campaign. You strain any credulity.

Let's say I wrote: "digno dave, at his worst, seems like a swarmy little kiss-ass."

Are you telling me that you would consider this an introduction to some sort of "thoughtful discourse" about you, regardless of what qualifiers I followed such a sentence with? Please.

And bringing up the name of Drudge in order to defend yourself doesn't say much for your "argument" to begin with.

Anyone who has spent any time at all on this forum in particular knows that "thoughtful discourse" is hardly the focus of conversation. Bashing other peoples candidates is the most popular sport and anyone who opens a thread like you have invites a pile-on of criticism from posters who always hated Clark and welcome the chance to continue to bash him, nothing more.

And as I said, even if it were not on this forum, your tone is hardly one that fellow Clark supporters would, or should, expect from someone who truly wants some sort of honest discussion about him. When you question both his character and his motivation you have moved from a former supporter examining his campaign objectively and critically to someone, for whatever reason, who has real problems with him as a person. That's your problem, not mine.

*edit* re-reading your original post, it can be summed up as this: "I think Clark may just be an asshole, but I could be wrong: discuss." Guess what, I don't want to go there, and neither do most of his former supporters. I can't imagine why that is such a shock to you.

[digno dave]

68. I'm clean

The Drudge reference was directed to you selectively choosing which comments of mine to use. The "kiss-ass'" comment, on it's own, would imply that i have no respect for the man. That is not where i left it, however. My "introduction" to the man wasn't that comment. That statement was buried in the middle of the post.

Maybe you would have been content if i chose to say something like "I think Clark is more inclined to look out for himself and do what ever is necessary to ensure his upward mobility" instead of using the "smarmy kiss-ass" comment. Either way, the point is obvious. Calling someone a "kiss-ass" is hardly libelous.

If you would bother to mention the posts above where i agree with another poster that he was more well-suited to the town hall type of forum then you would understand that, once again, i am not here to slam the guy mercilessly. That person didn't take my posts personally and they pointed out something that made me remember why i liked him in the first place. Maybe i should just stick to replying to those posts that actually got the point of the thread in the first place.

And i think a PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE"S character and motivation are game for discussion. Isn't that the point of the whole process? Gee, by your standards Dubya should get off scott free if we are not allowed to discuss his character or motivation.