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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:44 AM
Original message
The GOP's "Masculine Mystique" -- What IS it, and how do we fight it??
I'm calling it a "Masculine Mystique" because it seems to be about traits associated with "manliness." It's what makes Tweety swoon. It's what makes pundits assert Republican candidates are "tough" and "strong" without ANY basis whatsoever.

What the Hell IS it?? I think we have to start by looking at where it comes from.

Obviously it goes back to the Vietnam war era, when Republicans set up the "John Wayne vs. Alan Alda" stereotype. The revival of the word "hippies" points straight to that. But what does it mean that veterans of that war are considered "weak" if they're Democrats, and draft-dodgers are considered "strong" and "pro-military" if they're Republicans? It means the stereotype itself has taken root and grown up to the point that it overshadows all facts -- facts from both decades ago and facts of TODAY.

Going back a little further, H2S describes the "culture wars" as a clash of the 1950s and 1960s that's still with us -- Republicans are of the 1950s, we are of the 1960s. And that's all about tolerance and civil rights -- racial equality and women's equality. Half a century later, and that's STILL the basis of so many differences between the parties. It's evident in the GOP's favorite dirty button-push: "hand-outs" to "lazy welfare queens."

I think it goes back even further -- to fears and resentments leftover from the Civil War. The GOP has leveraged southern white men to the point that it practically goes without saying. We consider it a plus to nominate a southern white man, in order to get the votes of southern white men. Speaking very generally, others -- northerners, racial minorities, women -- are more willing to vote for someone unlike them. We build intolerance into our political equations, automatically.

The north/south divide, according to election stats, has now spread to an urban/rural divide. In general, more densely populated areas are more likely to go blue; more sparsely populated areas go red. Talking heads speak not only of north vs. south, but also of "Heartland" and "Regular Folks" vs. "Elitists" and "Secular Progressives." The same stereotypes apply.

So a man who wants to be president need only put an "R" after his name to get an instant load of "Masculine Mystique" -- he's strong, pro-military, brave, tough, no-nonsense, firm, "regular." He taps into key fears and resentments, developed and wielded expertly throughout our history by people now called "conservative." He's defined by the unspoken things he is NOT: not "feminine;" not "soft;" not "risky" in the sense of making change. He stands firm against the progress that frightens his admirers, "conserving" the power of the Christian white man.

The liberal view rattles that old cage. It empowers not only people who aren't Christian, not only minorities, but also (gasp!) women, which may be an even greater fear. Hence the whole image of *physical* strength and courage looms large; hence the hysteria over homosexuality; hence the resurgence of "family values" rhetoric and organizations bent on pushing women back.

This is why the image of hyper-masculinity is so crucial to the modern Republican. It's completely hollow, but the shell has so many layers built up over so much history, it's ingrained in the American psyche. Would Tweety swoon over a Fred Thompson or a Rudy Giuliani if they had "D's" after their names?? Would Bill O'Reilly lecture a 4-star General on military strategy if that General were a Republican?? Would a decorated veteran running for president be defined as an insecure "flip-flopper" if he were a Republican up against an AWOL fratboy Democrat?? Of course not, and that's the power of this GOP Masculine Mystique.

That one initial -- "R" -- now builds in the all-important image of "Strong on Security" (they'll "keep us safe!") despite any and all evidence to the contrary.

How do we fight back? Ends-justify-the-means suggestions may be distasteful, but necessary:

1. Much as I wish we could change the precepts of the whole thing right now and argue on different territory, that'll take much more time; and winning elections will help. So fight them on the territory that's there, and identify THEIR candidates as "weak" at every opportunity. (Remember how they flipped out when Poppy was labeled a "wimp," and lost to Clinton?) I don't know if we need to take it all the way to the obnoxious "girly-man" insults, but you get the idea.

2. Argue for our candidates on that ground. Clearly a lot of people care less about experience, intelligence, vision, effectiveness... (They stayed with the Chimp because he was "resolute," remember? "Even if he's wrong, he stands for something" blah blah blah.) We can't overlook the importance of hyper-masculine imagery -- even if our candidate is a woman -- in the minds of voters.

3. Don't be afraid of holding to liberal positions! There are people we will NEVER win over, and we have to let them go. There's more to lose in coming off "wishy-washy" than in standing our ground.

4. Embrace and display our own "conservatism" -- our fight to conserve the principles of the country, and American life as we know it, against the radical forces of the rightwing. It's they who are threatening what's "regular" and "normal" here, not us. In so many ways, they've eroded our founding principles and we MUST point that out!!

5. Show who's really "anti-troops," who's really "weak on terror," who's really clueless when it comes to military matters and foreign policy. Our candidate needs to be three steps ahead and challenge theirs relentlessly, never letting a hollow slogan stand. Don't be afraid to call into question THEIR fortitude, courage, military experience, and the fact that it's they who've effectively "aided and abetted" terrorists and played into the hands of our adversaries.

These battles would be fought most effectively by a southern white male with strong military experience, in direct defiance of their memes; but we as Democrats should wage them no matter who our candidate is. We have to tear the mask OFF of their Masculine Mystique.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Barf. And LOL!
Think back to any photo of shrimpy-chimpy, rove-rove, rush-rush, or dead-eye dick. Do these look like manly-men? rofl!
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I think that's the point
they are NOT manly men (except for the stubborn part) but they ARE portrayed that way by the MSM.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
98. It is called projection
They do it on everything. If they are arrogant they accuse Democrats of being arrogant, if they are crooks they accuse Democrats of being crooks. If they practice election fraud, they say Democrats practice election fraud It is all about projection. They only wish they had medal of honor winners in their party such as Bob Kerrey and the Senator from Hawaii I can't recall his name now. John Kerry is a Silver Star winner and a good portion of the Democrats are actual war heroes while Republicans had other priorities..It is all about Projection
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
53. Did you see the latest? Chimp in Crocs with black presidential seal socks:
:rofl:

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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
96. Just dripping testosterone, is our George.




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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. I Think Ridicule is the Only Way
but it has to be handled correctly. It is a "lizard brain" matter, which makes it difficult to fight.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. "Oh yeah, I am like all macho man" - Commander AWOL:
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 09:51 AM by SpiralHawk
"If you doubt me, ask republicon White House male prostitute Jeff Bulldog Gannon, a Celebrated republicon Chickenhawk, or Dickie "Five Military Deferments" Cheney They will convince you that I -- a blueblood Connecticut preppy cheerleader -- am one of those there Mystique Masculine persons"

- Commander AWOL
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
93. I can play dress up like a manly man
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. And the MSM don't help dispell it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
103. It's a BIG LIE that the corpmedia has helped to promote for the last THREE DECADES.
.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. A good way to start is to value the typical "feminine labeled traits" with one another.
Our country is seemingly morphing into Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

For example, the act of working with each other in order to build consensus should be prized. However, that does NOT mean that we compromise with the right wing - we NEGOTIATE with them. ;)

FIRMLY stand our ground with republicans while building networks and consensus type solutions among those within our party. :shrug:

Right Now Master-Blaster runs Barter Town. :scared:

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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Yes, and ironically, those traits involve strength, courage, etc.
The masculine/feminine divide isn't the sharp set of opposites people often imagine, I think.

Your point is spot-ON with the 'debate' going on right now: cooperation, negotiation, smart strategies are characterized as "warm embraces" and "group therapy" with "The Enemy." (Lieberman made such remarks in response to General Clark just yesterday.) It's seen as "strong" to just get out the bombs, as if a quick-fix is possible. It's definitely childish -- not to mention dangerous.

Hm, maybe that's another approach -- it's like having six-year-old playground "strategies" as our foreign policy.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. So true. IMO, we will also know that we have arrived - when we, once again,
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 10:07 AM by ShortnFiery
favor Hawk-eye Pierce and Trapper John's characters over those of Ferret Face Frank and Hot Lips Hoolihan. :evilgrin:

I'm dating myself, but I thought Alan Alda was the sexiest man alive during the 1970s. :blush:

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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. Dating yourself? How's that working for you? LOL nt
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. drum roll, thud! LOL I bet your family considers you "corny" also?
:hi:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
77. I couldn't resist. :-) nt
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. They are impatient. They want daddy to work miracles for them.
They resent their mothers for their mothers' strength and patience. Many of these guys had absentee fathers, fathers who were confused about their own roles or fathers who were rather resentful of having to respond to the needs of their families. They dream of having a father who would take care of them, give them what they want --right now. They do not want to have to think of the needs of others. And as for mother, they think she is there to serve them, to do what they want right now without complaint.

The children of these types are supposed to obey, perform well in public and make these guys look good. These guys are profoundly self-centered. They have an egocentric view of the world which reflects in their theology, their philosophy and the way they run their lives. Ayn Rand is the epitome of this attitude.

The Ayn Rand attitude does not work. You can't have good relationships with other people unless you are patient, willing to listen to the other person, aware of the other person's needs, in a word loving. What amazes me is that Jesus was the epitome of this loving attitude. I don't understand how these types of Republicans can claim to be Christian and not value loving people.

I agree. If we want a candidate who can handle these macho Republicans, it is probably Wes Clark. He worked with these kinds of people for years. He knows how to deal with them. I wish he would run, but I've kind of given up on him.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. That's a great analysis, too.
So many traits considered "feminine" are signs of strength -- as you say, the patience required to attend to others' needs is a big one. I think I've read that women also have a higher threshold for pain than men, and I'd dare say discomfort in general, which goes along with self-control... But I digress!

And yes, I agree completely that the loving strength of the Biblical Jesus is exactly the strength the GOP shuns; the Masculine Mystique runs directly counter to it.

Don't even get me started on Ayn Rand!!! :puke:

And I also agree -- General Clark could confront decades of this kind of mythology. I haven't given up yet on his running, but even if he doesn't (or if he runs but doesn't get the nom), his voice is so important for all those reasons, and he's been using it so well and so tirelessly on behalf of our party and principles. I don't think he'll stop now. :hi:

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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. Here's the picture I have in my mind.
A fat guy, sitting on a couch watching a game on TV and yelling "HONEY! BEER"! It just makes me swoon.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's just marketing. GOP is the Viagra party
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. The lauded knuckle-draggers motto: "If you can't f**k it, kill it!"
:crazy:
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
95. OMG....
:rofl:

TC
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
10. Very well-said!! It explains a lot about Bush-supporting women.
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 10:08 AM by MindPilot
When I ask them "Why?" the answer is invariably a dissertation on his manliness. I don't want to head into the realm of gender-based insults, but frankly I don't see much "man" there.

Edit for typo
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. My aunt voted for Bush over Kerry because he, and I quote,
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 11:48 AM by Clark2008
was "better looking" than Kerry. :eyes:

I have different tastes than my aunt - I don't find close-set beady little eyes attractive - but I can see how, within this media culture, a woman would think that Bush is "more attractive" than the tall and "gaunt" Kerry (gaunt is in quotes because I don't find him gaunt, but the media did).
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
12. Because it's human nature to abide by a stupid stubborn person, than a wise, open minded one
For some reason, Democrats' open mindedness, critical thinking skills, and ability to see the other side of things, is not considered "masculine". I disagree with this heartily, but I'm not considered "normal" either.

One point where I do think it matters, is that stubbornness is a dominant position to take. Have you ever seen an argument between a smart, compromising person, and a stupid, stubborn person? The stubborn one always wins. That's because dominance is not a matter of smarts, or "rightness", it's a matter of will. And sometimes having a strong will means being closed off to differing opinions and new, contradictory information.

I do think it's valid to say that Democrats lack will. Look at our politicians. Hell, I'm guilty of it--I'm probably not willing to go as far to control aspects of our country as a rabid, loyal Bushie is.
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
14. Your points are definitely right but
the dems have let this go so long without any rebuttal it has sort of set in which makes it harder to overcome. The dems have to learn how to set the terms for the debate and stop using GOP language. That puts us on the defensive from the start, makes the dems just seem like 'me too' and not leaders.

I agree with your points but #4, about using our own conservatism, we cannot use that word. I know you use it in it's true sense but the word has become used as 'all right wing thought is good'. Responsible might be the word to use. Responsiblity for the future, responsibility for fiscal matters, etc.

We shouldn't hesitate to ridicule the chickenhawks for what they are, not for a minute. It should be done relentlessly. As much as people say that they don't like namecalling and such I think that subconsciously they see campaigns as little wars and actually the name calling is part of it. They see someone willing to defend themselves as willing to defend them, to fight for them and their needs. Someone perceived as weak and mild mannered, even though right about issues gives the impression that when push comes to shove they will cave and not get anything done.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. It's anecdotal, but just about every hardcore Repuke I've encountered
has been a freaking cowardly sack of shit.

There is no mystique there for me about them, only scorn and loathing.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
38. Yep. Ask any rabid "troop supporter" about THEIR military service.
9 times out of 10 you get... "ummmmm" "I was never in the service".
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. Interesting POV. One way out is to wrest the *language* ....
of "toughness" way from the opposition.


>>>So fight them on the territory that's there, and identify THEIR candidates as "weak" at every opportunity. (Remember how they flipped out when Poppy was labeled a "wimp," and lost to Clinton?) I don't know if we need to take it all the way to the obnoxious "girly-man" insults, but you get the idea.>>>>>

Most of the RW agenda is based on fear and intellectual
"weakness". Giuliani ( aka Mr. Tough Guy)for example can be reasonably said to be afraid of just about *everything*: terror, illegal immigrants, GLBTs, Iran, his estranged children; you name it.He both embodies these fears and exploits them in others.

The rest of that sorry crew... i.e. their contenders ... does this to one degree or another.

DEMs should steal the terminology away and turn it back on 'em.

For example: the DEM candidate should describe the GOP plan for Iraq not so much as "insanity" ( which it certainly IS, BTW: doing the same thing over and over no matter how many times it is unsuccessful) but as *weak* intellectually and in fact. *craven*. ( But don't use that word; use 'wimpy' or whatever's currently in vogue.)

It's easy to substantiate since the fact is that the GOP lacks the *courage* to get out of Iraq.And also the intellectual *strength* to analyze the problem correctly.
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ejbr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. When lost, they refuse to stop and ask for directions. n/t
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. ain't that the truth
nt
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
18. Rethugs are typically wimps with bad hairpieces and BIG loud mouths..........
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 10:32 AM by Double T
that let real men fight their GD 'wars', while they beat on their 'war' drums from their leather chairs.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
19. "Masculine Mystique"?

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whoneedstickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
21. Paul Wellstone, Democratic Tough Guy...
Wellstone epitomizes the Dem tough guy to me. Former collegiate wrestler and ACC champ with a PhD and a passion for social justice. Though an urban/ suburban Jew by heritage he managed to connect somehow with Minnesota's Rural farmers and its urbane intellectuals because though he was smart he never forgot his blue collar, immigrant origins. Obama has these qualities. Hillary simply does not. We need to avoid, like hell, guys like Kerry.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. What is it about Kerry that we need to avoid
like hell?

Actually the handlers and campaign planners really blew it with Kerry. The campaign meme should have contrasted his genuine heroism (remember how, while commanding a swift boat, he went back and rescued a crew member at great danger to his own life) with *Bush's craven behavior on 9/11.

Instead, we let the propagandists spin Kerry's actions against him, and not a peep about what a coward Bush showed himself to be. Any real "leader" would have leaped into command mode right away on 9/11, demanding to know details, and taken some kind of preventative or retaliatory action as soon as he got a clear picture. Instead he went flying around the country like a chicken with its head cut off , to save his sorry ass.

But that's not the way _anybody_ spun it in the campaign. No wonder too many still think * is "strong" and will save them from terraists. While the motto he really lives by seems to be "Every man for himself! Women & children last."
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whoneedstickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
55. Succinctly ....
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 06:16 PM by whoneedstickets
Eastern, blue blood, American-Brahman, Ivy-League-Educated, Family-moneyed, semi-intellectuals whose lifestyle has taken them so far away from 'main street' that they seem uncomfortable around people in plaid shirts, look like L.L. Bean catalog models when out-doors and eat haute-cuisine meals on the campaign bus.

We've become a party of the everyman run by 'limousine liberals' pursuing 'post-materialist values' (look it up).

Wellstone was a state-school educated, second-generation immigrant who drove around in a reconditioned school bus, who could eat at what regular-folks ate and wore plaid shirts without looking like idiot. Oh, and he could talk to people about their daily lives and RELATE. While he cared about things like the environment, gay rights, abortion and gun control he knew that meant nothing to you if you didn't have a job, or a home, or health care or an education.

Edwards comes very close but that haircut thing was an example of what not to do.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. This is the kind of stereotyping I'm talking about.
It may be an unfortunate fact that this kind of bias is built-in to our national mentality, and worse that it continues on and on...

The ONLY problem with those characteristics of Kerry's is that too many people who do NOT share those traits are intolerant of them. I don't believe he can't understand how other people live, and I certainly don't believe his background would make him less of an effective president.

Here's the main point, though: Bush is similarly wealthy, even more privileged politically, and went to ivy schools, too; yet HE is cast as the "everyman." WHY?? If the political parties were reversed, you can bet the images would be, too.

I loved Wellstone, btw. Nobody talked about education the way he did.
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whoneedstickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. We can't easily go after the GOP candidate as privileged
When our candidate is a relative of the Forbes family. Its not about how elitist THEY are their base doesn't care! The privileged are the GOP base. Bush is one of them!

The Democratic base is NOT composed of folks who summered at the Forbes compound in France.

The winning recipe for a democratic candidate is 'Humble origins and High Achievement'. Think Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, even LBJ. The days when we could field a Kennedy or an FDR are over, they ended in 1968.

Both Kerry and Gore were members of the elite, they weren't from the ultra-rich but they were close (foreign service officers and senators for dads, well bred moms from elite families) neither spent a day in a PUBLIC school!

Cross off your list immediately anyone who 'summered' anywhere.
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athebea Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #62
80. Kerry made his money the old fashioned way
He inherited and married it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #80
90. Incorrect.
And his and Teresa's money are completely separate.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #62
92. Kerry 'summered' at loading docks to earn his room and board at Yale -
His aunt paid his tuition at Yale because his family didn't have that kind of cash at that time - his father was in public service.
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athebea Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #55
79. Kerry came across like Thurston Howell III
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. Not to those of us who BOTHERED to know the facts instead of waiting for corpmedia
to tell us what lies we're supposed to believe.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
88. Man - you let the media do your thinking for you? You didn't describe Kerry at all
and Hunter Thompson would be one of the first to disabuse you of that characterization.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
87. War heros - rescuers - pilots - expert hunters - hockey players - Harley riders -
skiers - windsurfers - soccer players - horsemen - organized crime prosecitors - and top records against government corruption is definitely unmanly terrirtory to you, eh?


You let media lies inform your view of men?
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thethinker Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. This was an issue in past elections
I do not think it will be a big factor in the coming election. Many republicans that voted for Bush feel betrayed. They are feeling very foolish having voted for him. They have turned against him. Many of them voted for him because he came off as a "good old boy" and had certain macho charm.

Another reason that I feel it will not be an issue this time is during the republican debates all of the republican candidates came off as macho war-loving idiots. All of them had the same line, except Ron Paul. Most republicans I know are turned off by all of them. They do not want another Bush. They are all searching for something different this time.

It really troubles me when I see Hilary Clinton trying to be "tough on crime" and pro-war because she thinks that is what will attract voters. I know her advisers are telling her to act this way. I also think the DLC wanted Kerry as our last candidate because of his war record and because they feared running against Bush's machismo.

There was an article from Rolling Stone magazine about Webb posted on DU in the last few days. It was really interesting and informative. He is a strong Southern white male. It was interesting because they talked with people that had voted for him. He ran as a democrat and won. He relates so well to the people that put him in office and never forgets where he came from. He also ran as a candidate against the war. The article gave a lot of insight into the mind set of these southern white male voters. His average backer works in the coal mines and often joins the army to get away from the mines.

I am so glad you bought up the subject of the Masculine Mystique. It is a subject the democrats should have been talking about for the past 7 years.







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win_in_06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
24. Whatever it is, Fred Thompson no doubt has it.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
65. I think so
We'll have to see how well he holds up though. Running for Prez will be the hardest thing he has ever done.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
26. Glen Greenwald (Salon) has called it a "Cult of Contrived Masculinity"
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
60. Great article... thanks for the link!
This whole subject has me fascinated now.

I mean, it's one thing to (in an abstract sort of way) survey the characteristics of fascism that have manifested...

...but this "Cult of Contrived Masculinity" seems more to the point than anything in describing what's actually going on. Recognizing it would seem to be a major first step to short-circuiting it. Hence the importance of this thread, IMO.

:toast:
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Alexia Wheaton Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
68. Excellent article!
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
27. Another point has to be made
about the desire to be represented by a manlyman. These men most decidedly are NOT, which is why they have an absolute terror of anything that is sold to them as weak or feminine.

These are the guys who were born too soon or too late to find adolescent glory fighting a war. Their jobs require a necktie and they keep their hands clean and soft. Instead of forging their own path through the world, they're having to settle for less and less autonomy as bosses intrude into every aspect of their lives. Their compensation is anything with a loud motor from riding lawnmowers through ATVs and snowmobiles and oversized cars. They take up hunting even though they're not all that fond of the flavor of wild meat because that's one of the few ways they know to keep in touch with their own wild, free, and masculine side.

They're hemmed in by civilization, falling wages, social duties, the demands of bosses, and what they see as an erosion of their masculine authority. They think they are due respect for the fact that they are men and they find themselves getting less respect every year.

Sure the Democrats can play these guys as well as the GOP has, but they're going to have to reject the corporatism of the DLC to do it. They're going to have to tie economic justice to respect and independence.

The last thing they need to do is run another candidate who looks and acts like a BOSS. That was the one thing Stupid had in his favor, he was packaged like a good ole boy who had to take a job in an office to survive, but you knew they'd never really tame him.

One of the advantages to being a night nurse on a scary specialty ward is being able to listen in the middle of the night when people are the most scared. Picking these guys' brains to find out what makes them tick was part of the job.

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
28. This is why I think Obama has a better chance than Edwards in the GE.
He comes across as more of an "alpha male"--fairly or not. I have yet to hear anyone call him anything on the par of a "Breck Girl", "faggot", "Silky Pony", etc.--it's absolutely reprehensible to diminish and insult Edwards that way (he never struck me as effeminate, FWIW) but check out Freeperville--that's what the R's (at least the most psychotic ones) are saying. Like it or not, this sort of thing seeps in to the public consciousness and sticks.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Actually, I don't know--
Maybe nobody's called Obama any of those things yet, but there's no doubt he has an elegant and somewhat intellectual persona. Those things are like red meat to the Pub. detractors. They _love_ to confuse masculinity with being rough and brutal, and a gentlemanly demeanor with being a wimp.

Maybe Richardson would be the best candidate to counter these images? Not that he's rough and brutal, but his rumpled look and overweight would be something a lot of "good old boys" could identify with.

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Well, I think the worst charge one can throw at Obama is that he
might be a bit of a metrosexual. Richardson's got the NRA love going for him, and the Western thing.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
29. I think Reagan was the beginning of the "tough"
repubs. But, his toughness was all smoke and mirrors, his movie roles. All during his time in office his movies would play on TV, and the "masculine" aura took over, it was just subtle brain washing. And he was likable, likable equaled tough, ergo we got Bush, Jr.

What I'd like to see, a full page ad or even a web site which says "These men were willing to die for this country" and put pics, names, and party affiliation. You get the idea.

zalinda
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Yes!
Wonderful idea!
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
63. I'd say Teddy Roosevelt is the model.
Course I could be wrong, feel free to disagree with me. Obviously Teddy was not the corrupt bastard model which is far more common.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #63
100. "Give a sissy a gun, and he will kill everything in sight" Gore Vidal on T Roosevelt (n/t)
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
30. Nominate a woman to kick their ass...
:-)
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Everybody knows she's one tough cookie--she has nothing to prove!
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
32. It has NOTHING to do with substance and everything to do with style. Tester & Webb have it.
I think the story of Tester & Webb perfectly illustrates the issues. They are clearly and openly Dems but do not have this problem of not having "masculine appeal."

You need to like hunting, pick-up trucks, need to be able to talk tough, and above all keep the world simple and black and white--at least in your language (but if you're a dem not, obviously, in your thinking and actions).

If you pay attention, Republicans actually make fun of people who grasp the nuances of the world, those who have studied, and begin to understand that the world is not this simple evil vs. good (i.e., them vs. us). Conservatism is in general a very tribal philosophy and to appeal to the masses, most of whom are still tribally American, you must make yourself part of the tribe by finding those that can be excluded, thus effectively reinforcing the identity of the tribe.

I would say that to gain (and keep) power we must learn to effectively use the symbols of the tribe, even if we think (and act) holistically, globally and systemic ly.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
39. Mike Judge understands.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. As R. Lee Ermey would say: "Out-fucking-standing!"
This is how campaigns are won or lost. You can be great at framing, and we should all remember the strategies of George Lakoff. You can be on the right side of each issue. But if you're perceived as weak, you're toast.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
43. It goes back a lot farther than Vietnam.
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 03:26 PM by smoogatz
The left have always been "pointy-headed intellectuals" as far as the reactionaries and fascists in this country are concerned--that rhetoric has been around as long as its evil twin, which is the myth of the rugged individualist self-made man. The real reason Republicans are viewed as "manly" or "tough" as that they aren't pretending to appeal to everyone: they know who their voters are (the very rich, social conservatives and evangelical Christians, stupid people, southern whites, lower-middle-class and working-class whites), and conversely who they aren't (gay people, minorities, liberals, intellectuals, northern urban hipsters, people who think). They have no fear of alienating people who aren't going to vote for them anyway, so they're able to mount a lot of "straight talk" attacks on liberal straw-men, e.g., "some people in this country don't care about national security--but us big Republican he-men do." Etc., ad nauseum. Democrats, in stark contrast, often worry that they'll offend someone (anyone) by being blunt in attacking the views of their opponents. That paranoia is another ingenious right-wing creation: the Republicans have thoroughly mastered the art of cranking up the right-wing outrage machine at any perceived insult to any of their "deeply held beliefs" (how DARE Howard Dean suggest that the Easter Bunny is a myth? Liberals have declared WAR on Easter!!!111!). The media, ever anxious to report "controversy," no matter how completely bogus it may be, eat that shit up. So, to reiterate, there are two parts to the whole thing:

1.Stay on the attack rhetorically against opposition straw-men.

2.Crank up the outrage machine if anyone calls you on your bullshit.

Unfortunately, we don't have an outrage machine, except maybe for the blogs, and we're too intellectually honest to go after straw men with any real (fake) conviction. So we're just going to have to figure out how to make being smarter and better at governing sexy again. Which I think it is, at this point.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
44. I'm just spitballing here, but...maybe we could try actually standing up to them
It might just be me, but it seems that the "talk semi-tough and then collapse" tactic isn't helping the Democratic cause.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
104. Exactly - and do it in a UNITED WAY. You didn't see a whole list of Dem lawmakers
getting on these programs to stand for the truth about Kerry throughout the general election - the GOPs would get in front of the cameras and lie for Bush with more enthusiasm than a Dem will stand for the truth about their nominees.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. I Googled "Male Mystique", and one of the articles I found described it this way:
"Sean Connery as James Bond in 'Goldfinger', guns and urinals, motorcycles and facial hair, and phallic-shaped power tools and cars, groins."

I dunno... I think the Republican's "mystique" is this instead: Bush as a fighter pilot with rolled-up sweat socks in the crotch of his flight suit, okay... guns and urinals, hummers (the car) and no facial hair, and acting like walking groins. If that turns Tweety on, then maybe it's just a fetish the Democrats have yet to figure out?

Just a thought.

TC
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I thought I made it up.
Hate when that happens.

But yeah, I think you're right about the costume-fetish.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
46. So simple and true.......its the projected image and its reinforcement by the corporate media
that influences Voters. By planting a certain imagery of a candidate in the minds of the public early and often, they literally call the shots on our elections.

Bill Clinton was framed as a womanizer (masculine) who could feel your pain (feminine)--The extreme of the Alpha Male womanizer neutered his sensitivity and gave him perfect balance....especially during a time of peace.

Gore was framed as an intellectual(metrosexual) know-it-all who loved his wife and showed it with affection (the kiss-feminine)....who **sighed** (feminine) during debates.

John Kerry was framed as a liberal elitist (feminine) who liked the French (feminine) and sissy sports (feminine). His veteran record (masculine) was put into question, his wounds (masculine) were minimized and ridiculed, and the fact that his wife was more well off than him was emphasized (Feminine).

Guess who got to serve as a Democratic President, and who didn't?



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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
47. hero worship- it's a monkey thing. evolutionary psychology
our ancestors selected for violence and war. it has benefited us greatly through the millennia. it propelled us out of the trees. in order to select for warriors, we must take care of their offspring if the warrior is killed. so, we have evolved a love of heroes, a cult of the brave warrior.
hopefully, we will evolve out of that. but i believe this is the boilerplate of human psychology. in a culture of fear, this is who we turn to. innate, and immutable. in peaceful and plentiful cultures, babies develop peaceful and thoughtful brains. in a culture of violence and fear, babies develop the brains, muscles and reactions of warriors.
but what we really need is to make sure every pregnant women is well fed and cared for. peace will follow in a generation.
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blueworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
48. Truth serum? n/t
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
50. Bunch of old out of shape fart types IMO
Their "manly mystique" must be lost on me...all I see are a bunch of pissy looking old maid types (like the bush family for instance) or hefty, balding old white guys trolling around.

If Fred Thompson exudes manliness then God help us!
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
51. Fantastic post ! - please rate up, folks...
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 05:19 PM by Psyop Samurai
Some responses haven't taken this seriously enough, and I can see why - the idea of Republicans having some kind of "masculine mystique" that draws people in seems ludicrous. But this isn't about us. It's about the poor schlep largely defenseless against the machinations of the corporate media. And I agree, let's tear the mask OFF! Of course, this is nearly tantamount to tearing the mask off the corporate media itself - no small task - but I'd like to see this as a continuing topic.

You've brought into focus something that's been lying in plain sight all along, but is SO pervasive and SO long-lasting, that we don't even notice it. It's long past time we did.

The lie machine is masterful at exploiting people's weaknesses, and masculine insecurity is a BIG and rather intractable one. So I know what you mean when you say that you'd like to "change the precepts of the whole thing right now", but "that'll take much more time".

I see an immediate problem with your first two strategy points. To me, out-macho-ing them has already proved to be self-defeating (and divisive among our ranks). The war-on-terror is a criminal fraud, which, whatever culpability we may assign to this point, should not be further reinforced. Now, if the dialog can be reframed in terms of REAL national security, then yes - by all means paint them as WEAKENING us at every opportunity.

Your third (and oft-repeated) point: yes!, a thousand times yes!. Although I'd modify that a teensy bit too, to get out of "their" frame: "Don't be afraid to hold the RIGHT position". Let the monkeys squeal and throw bananas. Play to what's good in people and stand fast. THERE's your potential market. Before you know it, you'd be hearing things like, "dude, those Republicans are so bogus... I knew it all along".

I totally agree with #4, and #5 (except for my out-macho-ing caveat).

:toast:

on edit, one of the best paragraphs ever:
This is why the image of hyper-masculinity is so crucial to the modern Republican. It's completely hollow, but the shell has so many layers built up over so much history, it's ingrained in the American psyche. Would Tweety swoon over a Fred Thompson or a Rudy Giuliani if they had "D's" after their names?? Would Bill O'Reilly lecture a 4-star General on military strategy if that General were a Republican?? Would a decorated veteran running for president be defined as an insecure "flip-flopper" if he were a Republican up against an AWOL fratboy Democrat?? Of course not, and that's the power of this GOP Masculine Mystique.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
52. They ARE good at this bullsh*t --


I haven't the slightest ideal how to counter it, either.

TC
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. A Few Real Democrats in Real Uniforms....
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 05:49 PM by Totally Committed



TC
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
56. Harpers Magazine published an article about Repubs and
masculinity. It was really fascinating. Sorry I don't know the issue. It must have been several years ago.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
57. here's a start:
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
59. they are roosters
For all you city folk, roosters are loud, stupid, vain, and testosterone poisoned. They only serve two purposes in the chicken world: fertilizing eggs for more chickens, and as dinner.

Cock-a-doodle-do, friends!
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
61. Not to mention
Alan Alda served in the military. John Wayne did not.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
64. That "masculinity" is ruining the country.
We don't need to imitate them.
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
66. This is one of the most fascinating posts
I've read on DU. This "mystique" has been successfully used against us over and over, and it's about time we start taking it seriously. You've managed to define it so well that I don't really have anything to add right now.

Outstanding!

K&R
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
67. Lots of money + unbridled arrogance and contempt for the system nt
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
69. Simple answer. It's sex.
Edited on Wed Jun-13-07 11:02 PM by gulliver
If women didn't respond to these forms of masculinity, guys would not exhibit them. One guy hits a baseball over a fence and then runs around the baseball diamond. Another guy works out a complicated math problem and solves the peak power requirements for a new office building. Which one attracts the most and, um, best females?

Like Joni Mitchell said, "Sex kills." We won't be changing that any time soon. Short term (say the next thousand years), we are stuck with these displays. They are sexually effective, emotionally resonant, and there is zero chance that fact will change in the lifetime of anyone now living, IMO.

We have a president who says things like "Fuck Saddam! We're taking him out!" and "Bring 'em on." It is a real problem, because a lot of people want to associate with that vibe, stupid as it is, and though voiced by an unworthy mite.

Bush believes his own macho bullshit. (Luckily for us, most of the non-Mama's boy Republicans don't. It's a game for them. Reagan believed, though.) But none of our people dare expose Bush for the wimpy, ball-less, man wannabe that he really is. Kerry and Gore had Bush in the ring and could not bring themselves to pulverize him. They should have laughed in his face. That was the only way to break the spell. But I would argue that they were afraid of Bush. They weren't afraid of his mind, but they were afraid to fight him in the emotional arena, afraid of that irrational place we all like so much and which Bush knows reasonably well.


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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. If our candidates won't take on Bush
or future Bush clones to expose their wimpiness, then it's up to us to do it. The ordinary Democrats. We need a think shop focusing specifically on this. But the real zingers probably have to go under the radar, like the Pubs' nasty whisper campaigns do.

Not sure I agree entirely with your analysis about "it's sex" , though. Remember that poll several years ago where hardly any women found George W. sexy? (That totally baffled Tweety!) And the guy who runs around the baseball diamond attracts females because he's a millionaire, (though I think there are a lot more male baseball fans than women.)

Actually, although I share the general low opinion of Saddam, in sheer masculine energy he had it all over Shrub. Maybe that's why the latter was so keen to take him out.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
70. It's the insecurity
Good stuff so far. I might add that the macho appeal of this sort of anti-intellectual, hypermasculinized politics is aimed at white men with little formal education. These are the people who have lost the most over the last 30 years. They grew up thinking that being a white male in america entitled them to certain things, such as a secure job that, if they worked hard at it, would provide them security for themselves and their family. Globalization changed all that, as well as the smashing of unions and the republican war on working people. Now these same men must rely on the income of their wives to get the standard of living that they had expected from one income. Hitler exploited the economic vulnerabilities of very similar men in Germany to institute his own macho cult.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
71. Here's another variation on the theme--"authenticity."
This is from the incomparable Bob Somerby at the Daily Howler, and although he doesn't correlate "authenticity" with perceived macho qualities, the connection is obvious to anyone who thinks about it for 30 seconds. He's quoting Gene Lyons here:

LYONS (6/13/07): Nobody knows who next year’s presidential candidates will be. This column has no particular favorite, and will make no predictions.

Even so, it’s not necessary to be a prophet to know how Beltway pundits will handle the so-called “character” issue. The Republican nominee will be a virile, decisive straight-shooter who’s one hundred percent “authentic” and “comfortable in his own skin.” The Democrat will be an indecisive phony, uncertain of his/her identity, but willing to strike any pose, or pander to any constituency in a self-serving bid for power.


http://www.dailyhowler.com/index.shtml

One of the Daily Howler themes for this week is how "authenticity" has been the punditocracy's favorite subjective buzzword since about 1999, and ALWAYS applied to Republicans.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. Don't let them get away with playing cowboy or soldier or tough cop.
In 2000 George Bush was able to position himself in the public mind as a down home rancher at heart businessman who entered politics because he wanted to bring his down home businessman's common sense to Washington DC.

The public bought it because in part the Democrats did nothing to counter the image. Of course the media played its part too, their willing suspension of disbelief played a huge role in getting this fool elected.

How do you do it? The Republicans have shown us the way, humor and mockery. Frankly, I think that if Al Gore had thrown a little humor at the Internet and Earth Tone garbage we'd be celebrating six years of peace and prosperity under President Gore today.

Suppose Al Gore had run humorous commercials showing Bush's ranch (purchased in 1999) vs the home in an exclusive gated community he had lived in prior to becoming Governor of Texas. "George Bush, a cowboy, I don't think so." and "So where's the horse?"

The Kerry windsurfing ads were devastating because they brought out a point that they wanted to make--Kerry blows back and forth in the wind and is a snooty elitist to boot. Now, I didn't personally see those ads as terrible at the time but I live near the shore and have friends who windsurf, weaving back and forth is how you do it and it is certainly not an elitist sport although people who are not familiar with windsurfing were easily lead to believe that it was.

Kerry could also have done a "Where's the horse?" campaign on Bush quite effectively as Kerry is apparently a fairly accomplished horseman--at least according to Don Imus who put him on one of his cutting horses.

Democrats don't seem to get this just like they didn't get how important it was for Kerry to slam back at the Swift Boat smear ads and do it personally. Guys tease each other back and forth all the time--Bill Clinton could do this better than anyone AND be serious when he needed to be serious. The guy who fails to play the game is a wimp and no one wants a wimp as leader of the free world.

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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #74
84. Thanks for bringing up the Imus ranch cutting horses. I was watching
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 03:20 PM by LandOLincoln
Imus the morning he talked about that (hey, I'm an insomniac and pickins are mighty slim at 4:00 a.m.)

I cried, literally, at Kerry's incredible, incredible stupidity, because I knew if he'd visited the Imus ranch DURING the campaign and been photographed riding cutting horses in worn denims and beat-up boots, there would have been NO EFFING WAY they could have turned that around on him/us the way they did the windsurfing and hunting escapades.

In fact, after Tweety compared Bush, Cheney et al. to The Magnificent Seven I wanted to see an ad with Clark, Richardson, Kerry and Clinton* ALL in denim, on horseback, against a suitably iconic New Mexican background.

The fact that we've allowed the Little Pimp and his cabal of fat, jowly Robber Barons to hijack our most potent national myth is an outrage. It started with Reagan, of course, but his ranch was a real ranch, he WAS a horseman, and his cowboy bona fides were pretty much unassailable.

Bush OTOH is a complete fake, and I will never, never understand why the Dems have not exploited this fact to the hilt.


* The first three are accomplished horsemen; I know Bill Clinton rides, but I don't know how experienced he is. However, compared to the Pimp, he's a vaquero.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. At the very least this would have brought up the question about why Bush doesn't ride.
There has to be something embarrassing there or Karl Rove would have Shrub out riding the range like John Wayne at the drop of a cowboy hat.

My guess is Bush's had some bad experiences with horses. He's an aggressive little snot but a physical coward at heart. He'd scare the crap out of a sensitive horse which would be a trainwreck. A more dominant horse would not only resent the arrogance but sense the fear and take complete advantage of it--in the most humiliating way possible, of course. I've seen many arrogant know it all guys brought low by horses that a five year old kid could ride--in fact--after they'd accuse me or the barn I worked for of giving them some beat up old nag that wouldn't move--we wouldn't put them on anything that would actually hurt them--I'd call over some little barn rat, throw the kid up on the horse and let the know it all watch the kid put the horse through its paces. It was fun to watch their faces and better yet those of their girlfriends. For some reason none of them were repeat customers and I would bet anything that something like that happened to Bush.

Besides in order to ride a horse you have to be smarter than the horse. That could be a problem for Decider Guy.

Interesting thing about Reagan. He actually preferred to ride English--in old fashioned peg top breeches no less. He also knew his limitations. When the Austrian government gave him a Spanish Riding School trained Lippizaner stallion, his political people wanted him to get on the horse in front of the crowd and TV. Reagan politely refused knowing that his horse was so highly trained that even an experienced rider was likely to get in trouble by getting on him cold. Politically, he wasn't my cup of tea to say the least but he does seem to have been a horseman.

Why Kerry never used his riding ability in the campaign--especially given Bush's deficit in that regard--is a mystery to me.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
94. Kerry did slam back at Swifts at the Firefighters Convention that no newsmedia would air
and Kerry also challenged Bush to stop hiding behind the swifts and come out and DEBATE their service during that time.

The newsmedia deliberately refused to air that speech or even report on it and the challenge made to Bush.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
73. But it happens to be true that Democrats are weak on defense
--defense of themselves and their own voters, that is. I just cringe whenever Dems are cowed into apologizing. Why did Carter back down? Why didn't Kerry say "That joke was about Bush, and the only thing I'm sorry about is that some people persist in not getting that"?

And don't get me started on DLC snubbing of union members and all the other so-called "special interests" that comprise their actual voting base. At least the Repubs have the basic good sense to at least try to hide their contempt for their base. That Kuo ever caught any of them out doing this is an extreme rarity.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
75. We can start by elevating WORKERS in the public eye.




The image of the Union Worker as a virile man is POTENT.

Let's use it.

Wimmens too!
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blueworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
76. After watching The Daily Show...
I would also suggest mailing a new selection of books to Reid so he can quote something on the Senate floor besides Dr. Seuss.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
78. The Authority of Penis Power ...
can be neutered with Mental Power. And the sex is better too.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
81. The media, especially TALK RADIO
All talk radio around here is Republican. Even sports radio which are supposed to talk about sports end up pushing the Republican agenda and calling Democrats pussies.
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athebea Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
82. Does anyone remember the 1979 World Series ?
That was when the Pittsburgh Pirates beat the Baltimore Orioles.

At the end of the final game, Jimmy Carter went down to the locker room to congratulate the winner. The announcer than went from Carter, standing in the middle of the room, over to the left to talk to the Pittsburgh coach for something like 10 minutes. Then he crossed over to the right to the coach of the Orioles, crossing directly in front of and ignoring the Commander in Chief of the Free World who was standing there in he middle of the locker room trying to look presidential and solemn and important. The announcer talked with him for another 10 minutes or so. Then the announcer crossed over back to the Pirates coach, again completely ignoring the Chief Executive who was still standing there in the middle of the room trying to look important and being ignored by everyone and wondering how the hell he could get out of there.

Carter was a failed president and the failures of a failed president haunt a party for a generation. In an unscripted situation Carter allowed himself to be completely marginalized and made to look like the rear end of a horse. The President of the United States is supposed to look and act like the most important person in the room. He is supposed to be someone who can make his presence felt and take charge of a situation. He is not supposed to melt silently into the background. How do you think Reagan would have handled that situation ? Would he have let himself be ignored ?

This perception of helplessness is something that Democratic candidates since have had to deal with. And maybe in a way Clinton's priapic misadventures and 'Slick Willie' reputation conveyed a virility that Dukakis in the tank and Carter in the locker room did not. Someone who can be an SOB with a folksy smile is what the American people want, not a gentle, humble potted plant.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I happen to remember that game (former Pittsburgher here)--
Edited on Thu Jun-14-07 01:36 PM by wienerdoggie
though I was a kid and didn't know Carter had been treated with such disrespect. But what you say is true, and it's something I've always believed when it comes to politics--image and appearance is just about everything. More important than policies and positions. The minute the media and the public get a whiff of weakness about someone, or something to ridicule, it sticks--hard.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #82
91. You have touched on something.
I would not talk about Carter that way though. But it is true that Carters personality hurt him. Does that affect future Democrats? Only if they have the same personality/presence traits.
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pink-o Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
86. And these Macho blokes are very, very afraid of female sexuality...
....as long as we women are sexy for them, we're rewarded. But if our own sexuality interfers, then we're bitches and ho-s.

The fake sanctimony over abortion comes from that fear. They couch it in God and murder, but it's really a fear of women taking control. Otherwise, why would children be treated so heinously in our society? Foster Care is a despicable institution--but those same fake manly-men would rather see children unwanted and shuttled from bad to worse situations than adopted by a gay couple.

Which brings us to the other fear and hatred: homosexuality. Those fake MMs see gays as the ultimate betrayers, men who don't keep up their end of the bargain.

I've said this many times before, and I'll continue to repeat it: The System needs testosterone-fueled aggression. There are many, many lucrative industries based on that fake masculinity, we gotta keep those economic wheels well-oiled and turning thru eternity.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-14-07 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
97. Read This Book
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
99. It's the "Daddy factor" that appeals to the authoritarian bootlickers in the gop
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Locrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
101. culture
The ENTIRE US culture shows "strong" men as quick action, take no bullshit, "get er done" types. If you cant fix it - kill it, break it, fuck it.

Thats a main reason. In the 70's Alan Alda types were cool. Now its Fortune 500 rich assholes who make $100 million a year and have the trophy wives (and a small dick). People like Jack Welch are regarded as cool because they know how to fuck the systems (and everyone else). And the Republicans know this.

Democrats want to talk. They want to study this or that etc. Because you HAVE to understand the problem to solve it.

On the surface (while they are raping the planet) Repubs want "action" and "results". That's perceived as in line with a "macho" culture.

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Bravo Zulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
102. Too win a presidential election
You are better off pretending to be Strong even if you are wrong,

Than being right and appearing weak!
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
105. Bill Clinton was right and so are you
Bill Clinton: In this environment, its better to be strong and wrong than weak and right.

Why are we still having to learn this lesson? The GOP is wrong on most everything - but at least they stick up for what they claim to believe in. That alone gets you quite a few points on election day (though not necessarily in the pre-election polls).

For our side, it seems everything is negotiable. And it also appears that every decision made by our side is based on how we can win the next election. That may once have seemed smart. But after so many years of this, a whole lot of voters have decided that we don't really stand for anything, and that we will say or do anything to win. And they aren't so far from the truth.

That's been an easy choice for some voters to make. Pick the strong ones and hope for the best.
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