Cindy Sheehan.........."I am leaving the Democratic Party."

[seriousstan]

Congratulations Congress, you have bought yourself a few more months of an illegal and immoral bloodbath. And you know you mean to continue it indefinitely so "other presidents" can solve the horrid problem BushCo forced our world into.

It used to be George Bush’s war. You could have ended it honorably. Now it is yours and you all will descend into calumnious history with BushCo.

The Camp Casey Peace Institute is calling all citizens who are as disgusted as we are with you all to join us in Philadelphia on July 4th to try and figure a way out of this "two" party system that is bought and paid for by the war machine which has a stranglehold on every aspect of our lives. As for myself, I am leaving the Democratic Party. You have completely failed those who put you in power to change the direction our country is heading. We did not elect you to help sink our ship of state but to guide it to safe harbor.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/5/26/10135/7518

[TwilightGardener]

1. See ya, toots.

[Greyhound]

10. See, that's just how the Democratic Party can lose next year.

Cindy Sheehan, and her cause, is one of the major forces that got us our victory. Telling them to "go fuck yourself" weakens us and strengthens the Republiks.

Is Cindy the next "Nader"?

[TwilightGardener]

11. I never think of her at all, really. How is she a "major force", beyond

bugging the Chimp at Crawford and showing up at peace rallies?

[seriousstan]

16. Your debating "major force" with someone with a Kucinich sig line?

[TwilightGardener]

18. True that!

[DemBones DemBones]

264. You're dissing someone with a Kucinich sig line?

Name me another Democrat besides Kucinich who:

voted against the IWR

voted against all the funding for the war

voted against the PATRIOT Act

promises to end the war and bring the troops home within a three month period

promises to repeal the PATRIOT Act

promises to get us out of NAFTA


That's just a few of the reasons all progressives ought to support Kucinich for president.

[seriousstan]

268. Name me one other Dem. that can pull less than 3% nationally.

The comment was about being a "major force". Kucinich is not.

[DemBones DemBones]

279. Name me another Dem who isn't being sponsored by corporate donors.

And try to tell me that won't affect their policies in office.

The system is corrupt through and through.

[Greyhound]

32. That's the spirit! Never let the facts interfere with the spin.

If you had been here, you would know just how many supporters she had. Of course, I'm sure that you and serioustan can ensure a Democratic sweep of the nation all by yourselves.
:eyes:

"Just how many kinds of stupid are there?"

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

117. Well, let's see...

...so far in this thread there's seriousstan, and then there's weinerdoggie -- by my count that would make two kinds.

[WCGreen]

168. I don't think they are saying that...

But what exactly does Ms. Cindy propose as a way out of the two party system...

It's ingrained in our winner take all electoral system...

I ran against a republican and got close to 40% of the vote, you know what, he never once called me to see what I thought about anything...

So unless Ms. Cindy and her followers can somehow call a Constitutional Convention and institute some kind of voting share or parliamentary system, it does absolutely no good to leave the party and hope to remain at all viable...'

It's just the way it is...

[Greyhound]

215. "It's just the way it is", is exactly what she and lot of other people are fed up with.

"It's just the way it is", gives us what we've got or what we had, neither of which is good enough to fix this nation.

"It's just the way it is", will likely get us another Republik White House and divided congress.

Apparently the Democratic Party has lost sight of the fact that they cannot win without us.

[IndianaGreen]

216. The Democratic Party as a whole was comatose about Iraq, until Cindy began her Crawford vigils

The DLC kept spewing its hatred of the antiwar movement, and the Mensheviks were running the Democratic Party, and then Cindy came...

[WCGreen]

243. And we can't win without the democratic party...

[DemBones DemBones]

266. But can we win with the Democratic Party?

First, can the Democratic ticket win?

Second, if they do win, is it a victory for us or will they let us down as the new Dem Congress has?

[WCGreen]

269. Don't you think it will at least reflect a good chunk of your views...

Remember, it takes a grand coalition to build a winner here in the USA...

And I do believe if we stick together, all the varied components, we have a much better chance of getting most of what we are fighting for instead of nothing but a chance to bitch about how the system failed us...

And yes, I do believe the Democratic Party will continue to build momentum toward a victory in 2008...

[DemBones DemBones]

280. I think the candidate will read the script but not mean a lot of it.

Same with the GOP candidate, of course.

[puebloknot]

260. "it's just the way it is..." is a dreadfully dead and hopeless stance.

Change has to begin somewhere. We are not at all viable right now.

[KoKo]

34. She was the FIRST to stand up to Bush with her ACTIONS in Crawford, TX!

The tide started to turn with her actions. You maybe weren't around here at that time to have seen what a difference she made when she took her stand on the road defying Bush to meet with her. Many DU'ers including Will Pitt made the journey to Crawford some at their own expense to stand with her as she was the FIRST to confront Bush about his "Wonderful War of Liberation in Iraq."

Some who don't know the history might not know what Cindy Sheehan did. But, search the DU archives because she is a TRUE HERO!

[TwilightGardener]

40. See, I'm not into that. That doesn't make her a big hero to me.

[KoKo]

51. Why are you not "into that?" You don't think "standing up to Bush" when

Corporate America and most of the Rest still liked him was important? Do you have any understanding of the COURAGE THAT TOOK?

Or, is that not important to you? :shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

61. It's not my thing. I don't admire those tactics. I don't think they do any good.

[KoKo]

64. Do you know about Civil Rights Movement? Women's Suffragette Movement to Vote?

Maybe the Labor Movement for workers rights to fair wage and not have their CHILDREN working in factories for pennies?

[enough already]

108. Don't waste your time trying to educate the ignorant

They see only what they want to see.

[Greyhound]

218. A note: It is the women's suffrage movement. Suffragette is a diminutive that is generally offensive

to many feminists.

Just FYI.

[Mrspeeker]

257. wow i did not know that

thanks :)

[DemBones DemBones]

278. The suffrage movement had a newspaper called "The Suffragette"

in the UK. It was the newspaper of the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU), led by Emmeline Pankhurst.

I'm sure you're correct that many feminists today object to the term, but the suffragettes adopted the term, at least in the UK, probably because they wanted to distinguish themselves from the suffragists.

The term was originally coined by the Daily Mail to be disparaging and to distinguish the militants from the polite "suffragists." The suffragists played nice and got nowhere back in the 1800s. The suffragettes played a lot rougher.

By 1905, the British media had lost interest in women's suffrage. The Women's Social and Political Union tried shouting during meetings as Code Pink does today, and mass marches. Then they grew more militant.

"They (the WSPU) dedicated themselves to gaining the vote for women "by any militant means, drawing the line at any threat to human life. So they would break windows, throw stones, burn slogans on putting greens, cut telephone and telegraph wires, destroy pillar boxes and burn or bomb empty buildings."

The suffragettes were the ones who set cricket pavilions, racecourse stands and golf clubhouses on fire and vandalized golf courses (they really knew how to piss men off!)

They also went to prison, over 1,000 of them by 1914, where they went on hunger strikes and some were force fed, which outraged public opinion.

During WW I, they worked to help the war effort. British women finally got the right to vote in 1928.

lots more at http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A517123

[19jet54]

65. Al Gore was first...

... to stand up to Bush?

[orleans]

253. so what are your tactics? kicking someone in the ass when they

stand up to this criminal administration?

[TwilightGardener]

273. Who did I "kick in the ass"? I just don't agree with what she does.

No "tactics" here. Just opinion. Same as you.

[The Wielding Truth]

256. It means that she has always been brave enough to speak

the truth and to put herself on the line against the harsh waves of major media and the war machine as well as those who still can't understand that a republican ruling power can be flawed.
She and all who speak for common sense and truthful communications are heroes.
These fearless individuals will lead us out of this fog of greed lead hysteria into the true concept that America must be free of complacency and must stand for justice for all.

[liberalnurse]

50. She's biting off more than she can handle to be effective.

I love Cindy....but she needs to stay focused on "her" and "our" platform issue to actually make a difference. This is poor judgment for someone who claims to really want to make changes.

Abandonment is an impulse, easy action....with little weight at this time to give her support from any of the masses. This statement makes her insignificant, a whiner and trivializes her heart felt issue of bring home the troops.


Working with the elected leaders...that takes thought, skill and heart-felt effort.

She must be struggling emotionally this Memorial Day.

[NJCher]

66. I doubt it

She must be struggling emotionally this Memorial Day.

She probably has a clear conscience, unfettered by pretending we live in a democracy. The truth is bitter: we anti-war people have no representation.

I'd rather admit we have no representation than pretend these jackasses we pinned our hopes on are ever going to do anything that will stop our tax dollars from going to war profiteers.



Cher

[KoKo]

87. well said....Memorial Day is a reminder that her son died...not for honor but for Lies

That kind of thing just eats into one's soul when one has struggled against these powers by living on te side of the road to Crawford in a ditch. That eats into all our souls...even those of us who didn't lose a son a daughter a father and YES even grandfathers and grandmothers (National Guard) in Bush/NeoCon Folly.

[snappyturtle]

167. I agree that I feel like we have to representation.

I'm not to the point Cindy is of jumping ship but never say never. The fact is that we know Cindy isn't alone. How do we curb the exiting?

When you said we have no representation you may be right. If you want to read something scary:
IRAQ WAR FUNDING BILL FIASCO MASKS COLLUSION BETWEEN BUSH AND DEMOCRATS
Expansion of Middle East oil war is a bipartisan imperative

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHI20070526&articleId=5780

[derby378]

The fix is in - and Cindy Sheehan is out. Sad...

The Democratic Party cannot afford to have Cindy Sheehan as an enemy. Their spinelessness has done a tremendous disservice to all of our military men and women around the world by enabling the occupation of Iraq and legitimizing Herr Decider's disregard for our Constitution.

[Divine Discontent]

145. and what the h have you done? (to be rude like you are with your toots comment)

she's neurotic in some ways, but you be raised to the level of political awareness that she's been elevated to, and having had a son die in bush's war, and then think if she's had an impact, no better yet, don't think, just listen - she's effected TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE (easily, as I love her and so does my family) who needed to hear about the bushco ongoing warfare, and she's someone we NEED on our side... goodness you are off the mark today... see ya toots!

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- check it out, top '08 stuff

[uppityperson]

147. She mobilized a whole lot of people into taking action, being vocal

Obviously she didn't mobilize you, but she did get a whole lot of people active in the End the Occupation of Iraq movement. Whether you agree with her or not, you have to have noticed that.

[femrap]

234. I presume you have no one who

is dear to you in harm's way in Iraq....you sound just like another 'ugly american' who cares for nothing but his own small weiney. Go cheney yourself.

[TwilightGardener]

281. LOL! That's the second penis comment! Does anyone read profiles?

[IndyJones]

303. I don't think about her much, either, but I gotta admit, what she is

saying is true and I am glad she said it. I'm suddenly thinking about her more.

[grytpype]

225. Who's saying "go fuck yourself" besides Cindy?

I'm sick of the Liberal Idiots and Purity Trolls who want to attack the Dems for doing everything they can to stop the war, and then blaming the Dems for the war when it is 100% Bush's fault. Total bullshit.

The only thing the Dems could do now is cut off all funding for the war, which only THIRTEEN PERCENT of the public supports. And Bush would force the troops to fight and die with no equipment so he could blame it all on the Dems.

Fuck the trolls, the Dems need our support!

[Mrspeeker]

258. "go fuck yourelf" Now that really democratic ROFL

[freedom fighter jh]

247. A victory that proved hollow . . .

. . . if the Dems aren't getting us out of the war.

Cindy highlights a real dilemma, as Ralph did. Do we stay with the party that's supposed to be better but betrays us on the most important issues, or do we look elsewhere and leave the "better" party with that much less hope?

Nader might have stood a chance in '00 if progressive voters had been willing to take a chance on him. Same for Kucinich in '04. The reasoning that you have to go with someone who has a visible chance of winning can undermine any real progress.

Compromise may be necessary in the end. But now, a year and a half before the election, is the time to raise these issues, so that as the election approaches progressives can compromise from a position of strength. Or, if that's not possible, maybe have a real alternative established.

[coalition_unwilling]

292. When the Whig party proved incapable of rising above sectionalism

to handle the issue of slavery, it was supplanted by the Republican Party of Abraham Lincoln. In the same way, the Democratic Party seems to have outlived its usefulness when 67%-70% of the American people oppose the Iraq war and the Democratic Party gives BFEE another $100 billion blank check.

[TheModernTerrorist]

252. no, I think they lose

when they sell out on their values, and what they promise to their constituents.
THAT'S how they lose. THAT'S how we ALL lose.

[enough already]

107. You used her when it was convenient, now you dump her

How GOP of you.

[TwilightGardener]

270. I "used" Cindy Sheehan? WTF? I never had anything to do with her.

She wasn't my idol, my leader, my hero or my spokesperson--ever. Just saw her popping up in the news from time to time, doing ever-more-fringey stuff. That's my connection to her.

[Telly Savalas]

212. "Toots"? Damn, you must have a large penis.

[TwilightGardener]

274. It's HUGH! I'm SERIES!!!

Didn't realize I even had one!

[SexyLiberal]

254. Did you really just say "toots"?

Who the fuck do you think you are?

I am not the biggest Cindy Sheehan fan on this planet but I am a feminist and a democrat. That was UGLY and uncalled for.

Go figure out why exactly you are a liberal again and come back here to every woman you just offended and explain it.

[TwilightGardener]

272. LOL! "Toots" is ugly? Do you READ some of the stuff on this board?

Take your PC shit and stuff it. And where did I claim to be a liberal? All you can probably assume about me is that I am a Democrat. Because it's Democratic Underground. Not Liberal Underground.

[madmunchie]

294. People like you are precisely what is wrong with this country

Short smart aleck - even juvenile responses. No real thought, no real empathy, just time taken to make a smart ass response to be noticed and read by many. I'm glad Cindy Sheehan is taking off, too many people don't deserve her passion, dedication and sacrifice....like you for one.

[TwilightGardener]

296. Read post number 152 of this thread on GD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=989600&mesg_id=995215

[19jet54]

299. Heartless, selfish Bitch?

Ya, You!

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. Was she ever in it?

...just asking because it is not at all clear to me.

[TwilightGardener]

3. I guess only when it served her purposes.

[KoKo]

52. And...what do YOU think Cindy's "Purposes" were? What?

:shrug:

[Cronus Protagonist]

53. I wonder if she donated any bucks to Democrats?

Maybe she should expose who it was and then I would agree she has a grievance on that one Democratic.

[Greyhound]

4. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this. n/t

:kick:

[bigdarryl]

5. Cindy can cause this party alot of trouble they keep ignoring her thinking she's a joke

[KoKo]

35. Just "who" in this "party" thinks Cindy Sheehan is a joke?

:shrug: Not anyone who knows anything about her...or takes the trouble to see how courageous she was for being the first CITIZEN to STAND UP TO BUSH...in 100 degree heat on the road to Crawford living in a DITCH!

[grytpype]

226. She had a great moment two summers ago, but her time is past.

[coalition_unwilling]

293. No disrespect to Cindy but there were the Dixie Chicks before her -n/t

[napi21]

6. Don't let the door hit ya.....

[John Q. Citizen]

133. She gives you a good scape goat if the Dems manage to lose. You should thank her. n/t

[wildhorses]

7. where's she going? buh-bye!

n/t

[doggyboy]

8. It's "my way or the highway" for some

Happy trails, Cindy.

[quinnox]

9. I didn't think she was a Democrat to begin with

This is news to me that she was a Democrat party member.

[KoKo]

43. She is making a statement to the "spineless" in the Dem Party ...those

who side over the "Military/Industrial Complex" over those who have had enough of it. Without people like Sheehan and Kucinich and Gore bringing these issues to the fore we would have "business as usual."

While that might be okay with many Democrats...it's not with this Democrat and many other grassroots activist Democrats. Cindy is an Activist and her job is to LEAD for what she thinks is important. By making this statement she draws attention to the issue of WHY ARE WE STILL IN IRAQ...and that Bush just said this week it will be a BLOODY SUMMER. She lost her son in IRAQ...You think she doesn't think about all the other sons and daughters who will die for Bush's FAKE SURGE?

You think she doesn't have a right to speak out? There are many DU'ers who are disgusted with our Dems inactions on many fronts right now. While we aren't leaving yet ...it doesn't mean that our CONVICTIONS and MORAL COMPASS won't at some point cause us to find other alternatives to CHANGE OUR PARTY...and that might mean leaving it for a time if it doesn't GROW SOME SPINE!

[bonito]

67. Well said n/t

[NJCher]

74. oh, ic

Democrat party member

:eyes:




Cher

[Zodiak]

297. no one is a Democrat party member

because the "Democrat" party isn't a party, but an intentional verbal gaffe used by Repubicans to denigrate the other side of the aisle.

[BobRossi]

12. Ironic.

Ironic how those that so willingly used her are so quick to dismiss her now.

[Solo_in_MD]

72. Her 15 minutes lasted a bit longer, but her departure was easily forseeable

[Liberal Veteran]

13. Seems counterproductive, but she is mistress of her own conscience...

...not me.

As it stands, with a razor thin majority in Congress and one idiot independent who I despise more than most republicans threatening to go to the pukes, this is not going to be a battle that is won with a single bill and it sure as hell ain't gonna happen if people let the republicans seize control because of internecine warfare in the party.

[pinto]

20. Good point re: the effect of one bill. As much as I wanted to see a clear line

drawn on the 'emergency' supplemental, I realized cutting that funding for the deadly Bush Iraq fiasco would have no immediate effect. The Pentagon already had the funds to remain in Iraq.

Still wish we said 'No' on this one, but it isn't over. And, again, as you said, one bill is not the ball game.

[John Q. Citizen]

139. The dead and wound don't see this as a game. Unfortunatley, the Dem leadership do.

[NoPasaran]

14. See ya in hell, toots!

[TwilightGardener]

17. Love the pic!

:rofl:

[KoKo]

37. That's really disgusting. What do you know about Cindy Sheehan that you

would post something like that?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

123. I believe she once dared to let an utterance...

...slip from her tongue regarding the Israeli/U.S. relationship and how our joint illegal, military misadventures in the Middle East have taken her son's life.

Speak truth about the U.S., fine, speak truth about Israel and you have committed an unpardonable sin for which you WILL BE PUNISHED.

[Carolina]

242. Thank you, KoKo01

As I read this thread, yours is a consistent voice of reason and historical memory. Were it not for the 1000 posts and stars besides their names, I'd think that some of the posters condemning Cindy were trolls.

Cindy is not only a direct victim of the BushCo lies that Dems have enabled with their IWR and other votes, but she is truly a hero of the anti-war movement.

Good for Cindy. As I have posted further below, other victims affected in the same direct way as Cindy have similarly condemned the political duopoly that keeps this fiasco going and remains beholden to the military-industrial complex.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JTFrog]

15. Any of the above posters lost

a child in the war?

Just curious.

[Liberal Veteran]

19. And that's relevant how?

Where the hell is she gonna go that is gonna help her end this war? The Greens? The Libertarians?

[PassingFair]

190. The Greens will be friendlier.

Than many here.

I sometimes feel like Cindy. Especially last week.

I used to believe that we needed to change the dem party
from within, rather than try to start a third, more populist,
party, but the "vested interests" within the party have a
stranglehold that is hard to break.

I think an unfettered Al Gore will help.

Death to the DLC!

[BobRossi]

22. Not a chance.

Blind allegiance before compassion.

[TwilightGardener]

24. I can't speak for anyone else, and I am sorry for her loss, but she has always

rubbed me the wrong way. I never liked the way she used her son's death--it's not for me to criticize how someone grieves, but he was a volunteer. Was she actively and publicly against the war when it started? People who become activists because someone THEY loved has died always lose a little credibilty with me. The war is wrong because it's wrong, not because you're affected by it personally. And I think she allowed herelf to become co-opted by factions that made her look, well, stupid.

[Warren Stupidity]

56. Ah well that explains a lot.

"but he was a volunteer" - gee I've heard that explanation for why our soldiers getting killed in an immoral war started on fraudulent grounds doesn't matter so much, only usually I hear from rightwing shitheads, not here on DU.

"Was she actively and publicly against the war when it started?" Cindy has stated repeatedly that both she and her son were against this war before it started. Actively and publicly? No probably not, but once again this is just a regurgitation of one of the many rightwing smears of Cindy and the GSFP.

"People who become activists because someone THEY loved has died always lose a little credibilty with me." Wow, that is a stunningly condescending statement. Perhaps you might want to reconsider the level of purity your require from those who dissent from offical policy.


And finally the obfuscated red-baiting: "she allowed herelf to become co-opted by factions".

Nice job. You should be quite proud of yourself.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. I agree with her intentions: we need to find a way to defeat the War Party.

And that includes knocking our fellow DU'ers with the CLUE STICK until they finally get it through their noggins, throught their thick heads, that the Democratic Party is corrupt and controlled by the same cabal that runs the Republican Party.

We need to think about what a Democratic Underground might mean in a reality of pervasive corruption and endless war.

[TwilightGardener]

75. He WAS a volunteer--you don't get to pick and choose the war you fight in,

unfortunately (unless you're Pat Tillman, maybe). But you volunteer to fight and possibly die, anywhere, at any time. And he did--very honorable of him. But that's what you sign on to do, madman in the WH or not. That's not a RW talking point. Sheehan's entire basis for activism seems to be his death, and while it's a sad waste, he wasn't a victim, so I don't get why she feels the war should end because HER son died, when that was exactly what he signed on to do. Had she been an activist before then, then she'd have more credibility with me. War is not fought for the benefit of the troops (Chimpy's circular argument) and it's not ended because of the troops--it's ended when the benefit to our country has been exceeded by the cost, or when it's decided that it can't be won. That's the point we're at now, in Congress. I never paid much attention to Cindy--her story is sad, but individual stories of loss don't sway my opinion of the war--to me it's primarily wrong because we attacked a country for the wrong reasons, and we're still there, pointlessly wreaking havoc. By the way, when enough folks in the military wake up and realize that voting knee-jerk Republican has gotten them a ticket to hell, maybe they'll be a little more careful about whom they choose as their next commander-in-chief. But I digress. I stand by every one of my statements. Quite proudly.

[WillyT]

81. Just Curious... What Unit Are You In, And When Are You Shipping Out ???

I mean... you stand quite proudly by your country don't you. And your country is at war.

:wtf:

[TwilightGardener]

84. My husband is an active duty career Air Force officer. Fifteen years,

and many deployments, including two in the Middle East in support of this war.

[MichiganVote]

94. Well that certainly explains the rest of your posts. n/t

[WillyT]

98. So If Something Bad Were To Happen To Your Husband Over There (God Forbid)...

you would not consider him a victim of this war???

I consider everybody hurt or killed over there, on both sides, victims of this war. I consider the American Military a victim of this war. I consider the Constitution of the United States of America a victim of this war. I consider our moral standing in the world for generations to come a victim of this war. I consider this country's sorry-assed state of affairs a victim of this war...

Maybe we agree but would just phrase it differently, maybe...

:shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

111. We all are victims to varying extent of ChimpCo. But I don't see

the military, and those who serve, as totally unwitting, random victims. I reserve that sentiment for many of the Iraqis. That oath of enlistment (or receiving a commission) is a serious, serious thing, and my husband has thought it through--many don't, they sign up for the GI bill, or to run away from home, or whatever. I would be terribly angry and bitter for quite some time--I'm no hero. But I'm sure I would at some point accept that he died doing his job, whether it turned out to be pointless or not. Many, many families have come to grips with this in every conflict, even the stupid ones. When you think about it, how many deaths are really as meaningful, or as honorable, as dying in the service of your country, even if the war is not a good cause? It doesn't take away from the willingness, and the courage, of that person to serve when called. A loved one dying by getting hit head-on while going to the store for maple syrup would really make me angry and bitter, too, and I wouldn't even have the consolation of pride in his service and sacrifice.

[DemBones DemBones]

289. "two [deployments] in the Middle East in support of this war" -- never in Iraq, right?

Tell me, why is it that officers' wives are so rude?

[TwilightGardener]

291. He was in Iraq for a short time, and he will go back. That's the way it is--

I have no illusions that we will ever totally get out of Iraq, at least in the next few years. My husband was an enlisted man for his first 9 years--I am no different in personality because of his change in rank. I think I'm pretty honest, although I certainly can be rude. But I'm not here to be cautious, polite, or to make people feel good.

[DemBones DemBones]

307. What have you got against politeness?

You started the Cindy-bashing by your "See ya, toots" post.

Kicking people when they're down, as Cindy Sheehan is at present, is just tacky and uncalled for. I think Cindy has made some bad decisions but she has also energized the anti-war movement.

It's obvious that she has worn herself out and the Democrats' caving in got to her more than to most of us, who have learned to expect it.

As I reminded people somewhere in this thread, she also just went through another Mothers' Day without Casey. You can have a houseful of kids but if one dies, you go through hell for the rest of your life.

I grew up in the military and I don't get your attitude at all. If you've buried a child killed in action, I don't think it helps one bit that he volunteered. And I don't believe that you'll be as stoic as you think if your husband comes home in a box. I think you might want to come to DU for support, which has been given to everyone who lost someone there.

[Hissyspit]

211. He wasn't a victim?

What utter rubbish.

[MichiganVote]

70. Exactly how do the families of deceased soldiers "use" their children when they speak

to the public about their points of view? Is there some etiquette that you have failed to make available to the parents with kids who still live? Some grief manual you're about to post on ebay for the losers whose loved ones didn't make it? Baby, you need to get published and fast. We've just got to all understand your point of view. It is sterile and free of emotion isn't it?

"People who become activists because someone THEY loved has died always lose a little credibilty (credibility) with me."

Sure, we get it. Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, the father of Adam Walsh, Mothers Against Drunk Driving,....nah, none of these people or groups deserve your full attention.

The next time you feel like 'volunteering' your self righteous judgement of anyone who has lost a kid in this fiasco, how about you strap up, sign on the dotted line and join the rest of the kids over there that are still alive. That way you can tell them in person what bullshit you intend to post stateside.

[TwilightGardener]

78. Sorry, that's the way I feel. Didn't say I was a grief counselor. Plenty of

kids died before her son did--was the war wrong to her then? Was Bush the enemy to her then? I'm not denying her right to act on her grief however she sees fit, but all I'm saying is that while I have sympathy for her loss, her form of activism doesn't appeal to me, and her blame of the Democratic Party REALLY doesn't appeal to me.

[MichiganVote]

82. No...that is not "all" you are saying. You clearly object to her "use" of her son,

you claim her son volunteered...the correct term in or out of the military is enlistment and you obviously denigrate her contributions to society as well as her son's. Opposition to this war is not some Saturday evening smorgasboard for seniors, despite what Congress would have you believe. We're all eating the same watery mashed potatoes and canned green peas. Including you. And we sure as hell are all going to pay for the meal.

The recent vote on emergency funding showed the Democrats in Congress took the easy way out----again! Let's see, next up it will be, 'not the right time, next time, another day, some other issue, and on and on.

Promises, promises....

So enlighten me, which party in Congress really gives a damn what is appealing to you? You think that Democrats can market their way out this unreasonable mess by appearing rational? You think the rule of law will help? Hah!

Your analytical point of view is not any more appealing to the populace than Cindy Sheehan's are to you.

And no, there is nothing sympathetic in your responses. Grief counselor? Hardly. Dog catcher maybe.

[TwilightGardener]

88. I know all about the military, thanks. I would never, and do not now,

denigrate her son's or anyone's service. And there are many ways to feel about the war, and different ideas to end it. Yours may not be mine. I am with the Democratic party. I believe that overall they are doing their best within the framework and political reality that exists in Congress. If Cindy disagrees, then--oh well. If I say I'm sympathetic for a mother's loss, then as far as you're concerned, I am, unless you have X-ray vision and can see inside my head!

[MichiganVote]

92. If you know so much about the military then you're aware that soldiers do not refer to themselves as

volunteers. Neither do their respective officers.

The only "framework and political reality" I see at work in Congress these days is a three pillar philosophy.

(1. Sell a war to citizens, adjust rationales as needed
(2. Citizens die for the lies we tell and the truths we leave unsaid
(3. Citizens pay for the mess we make, while we make more millions to stay in office and do nothing

Such a deal. It doesn't take X-Ray vision to deduce an outcome.

[TwilightGardener]

95. LOL! "Volunteer" vs. drafted. I fully understand the concepts of enlistment and

commissioning, thanks. We're not going to see ending the war the same way, obviously. I don't think Congress is totally innocent (for example, no one's talking oil, and Blackwater and Halliburton and Massive Embassy, besides second-tier candidates for prez), but I still believe that Dems have more conscience than Repubs in general on this issue, and will be the party to force an end--so that's my affiliation (among other reasons).

[MichiganVote]

104. As I said, enlistee is the proper term. Its not a 4H club and given your posts,

you should know that. There is no draft, so the idea of a volunteer vs. draft is moot.

Regardless, an enlistee at 17 or 19 versus an enlistee at 25 or 30 is hardly the same thing Madam. Not to mention the gutting of the National Guard and of the Reserves.

Doesn't matter. Since Cindy Sheehan had so little effect on you, I can't imagine why you bother to break a sweat over her name.

[uppityperson]

97. Cindy has stated repeatedly that both she and her son were against this war before it started.

[TwilightGardener]

101. That's good--she's smart, and so was her son. But it doesn't change the

way I see her. I feel bad for her loss, but it just doesn't go beyond that for me.

[uppityperson]

106. You keep asking if she was against the war before Casey died. She was.

That is what I am saying. Clearing up a question you have written couple times in this thread. She was.

[kiteinthewind]

160. "Her form of activism"? Versus YOURS behind the keyboard? I smell the language of hate. Kinda like

the Freepers. Karma. That's all I'll say. Karma. :grr:

[TwilightGardener]

276. Hate? Freepers? Karma? Again, where did I claim to be an activist?

I'm just not that into her, or what she does, for a few reasons, which I've expressed. She's a public figure of her own making, and thus opens herself to criticism, same as Bush, Hillary, Britney Spears or anyone else. Losing a son is tragic, and being a peace activist is worthwhile, but neither makes anyone above reproach or criticism, and neither automatically engenders in me feelings of loyalty or of wanting to follow that person. I did not personally attack her (that would be like calling her fat, or a bad mom, or whatever, which I haven't done), just offered my analysis of why she's not my thing--all related to her PUBLIC work. My feelings and opinions may not be to your liking, and they may not be rational, yet there they are nonetheless, and I am entitled to express them on this forum, especially when said public figure disses my political party (the reason this forum exists).

[NJCher]

79. oh please

It's obvious you've never been an activist. It is not fun giving up one's life for a schedule of no-pay protest, writing, speaking, (and starting out from a ditch, mind you). Don't you think Cindy would rather be in her own comfortable home, enjoying a Memorial Day weekend? Maybe having a cookout, seeing friends, sitting back and popping a few?

But she cannot. She is driven. And people like you think she is doing this for some other (undefined) reason. You said she is "using" her son's death. For what? What an outrage.

You wouldn't be able to spot a conscience-driven action if it slapped you upside the head.



Cher

[TwilightGardener]

80. Nope, I'm not an activist. Just a citizen with an opinion. She just

never connected with me, because while I think her son's death is sad, it's hardly unusual, or the basis for an entire movement.

[uppityperson]

99. Dead military cannot be the basis for an anti-war movement?

wow

[TwilightGardener]

118. If dead military was a natural basis for anti-war movements, how would

we wage war? Especially after the first guy was killed? They are there to fight and die. Ask servicemen this question. See what answer you get.

[uppityperson]

119. The military aren't dead UNTIL war is waged.

Got that? And sometimes it takes a while to start protesting. And, did you know that many military people ARE protesting this war?

Some of us protested BEFORE the invasion happened. As time goes on, more people die, more people are realizing that the Occupation of Iraq is wrong and are protesting. I have had military people standing with me in protest.

[Heathen57]

287. Some of us ended up

tear-gassed before the war even started and are still protesting every way we can.

If a person loses a loved one in a illegal war, it should not put them in a position of not being able to speak out, it would make it even more of a priority. To make sure the same thing doesn't happen to somebody else's loved one.

[KoKo]

103. Well...what movement REALLY CONNECTS WITH YOU? so far I don't know

from your posts about "Don't let the door hit you on your butt" and the rest of it. I really want to know what you BELIEVE!

Tell ME! :shrug:

[enough already]

114. What?

"while I think her son's death is sad, it's hardly unusual, or the basis for an entire movement."

As someone else said, dead soldiers in a war of lies is not the basis for an anti-war movement? Soulless...there is no other word to describe this attitude. And if so-called mainstream Democrats have lost their souls as you have, she won't be the last to bolt the party.

[TwilightGardener]

125. That the war is based on lies, and is immoral, is my reason for opposing it.

Not because Casey died in it, or any particular soldier, for that matter. I see it as a waste of lives in general because it's a bad policy--Cindy has made it too much a personal matter, in my view. I don't ascribe to any "movement". I don't see ending the war as "rescuing" soldiers--it will end because we really shouldn't be there. That may not be PC, but that's the way I see it.

[KoKo]

129. If that's where you come from then why did you post dissing Cindy?

Who ARE YOU? Are you of the age that should go to Iraq...What's your aim in posting this thing against a person you "seem" to know nothing about ..in her history...except what the Corporate Media has Told you?

What right do you have to trash Cindy Sheehan... Is ti just because you found your way to DU? :shrug:

[uppityperson]

130. And wanting to save lives that are endangered by an immoral war is...wrong?

Coming to terms with the fact that this occupation was based on lies and is immoral through the death of someone you love is...wrong? Most of us protesting and trying to end the Occupation of Iraq are doing so because it is wrong, saving lives is part of that, but not the whole thing. Did you miss that part?

[tabasco]

174. It's unusual in the Air Force.

Not so unusual in the infantry.

[KoKo]

90. So....you think the only "Activists" that can be "true" to your principles are ones

that don't have a horse that died in the Bush race for bringing Democracy and Freedom to a country who didn't ask him to do that for him.

That Cindy lost her son disqualifies her from ever speaking out because her "loss" immediately disqualifies her...because her "horse in the race" was killed fighting in a Bush Folly War?

:eyes: Well...it's kind of hard to respond to you. As it goes along what you say sort of seems more and more well....kind of .... :shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

93. No. That's not what I said. I simply do not feel that her son dying

in a war, which he volunteered for, is all that singularly compelling. Very sad, and a waste for sure in the grand scheme of things, but it doesn't necessarily make me think she's the most qualified to lead the charge against the war. She's not a spokesperson for me, at any rate, and she often seems driven by emotion and bitterness rather than by reason. That's how I take this "kiss off, Dems" letter.

[uppityperson]

100. You do know that the anti-war movement is not just about Casey?

A parent of a child killed in the military is not qualified to lead the charge against the war?

[venable]

141. You say Cindy is driven by emotion and bitterness?

I have to say, with respect, that I find your resistance to her baffling, so much so, in fact, that it tastes a little bitter itself.

Is there a test, or a license, or a certification that allows one to be an anti-war leader?

Don't the circumstances and experiences of our lives lead us into our beliefs and commitments? Is this not the case with Cindy? With you and with me?

What, really, is your problem with Cindy Sheehan?

[uppityperson]

96. What "noble cause" did Casey die for? That is what she wanted to know.

mrbush could've met with her and talked with her and defused Camp Casey, but chose to use his death (for what noble cause) politically.

Becoming an activist after someone you love dies undermines the activism? MADD

[wildhorses]

31. does it have to be THIS war and does it have to be a CHILD??

just curious.

[crim son]

21. I'm wondering how many of the responders to this thread

have had a son or daughter killed in Iraq, in a war to which the dems just gave another big thumbs-up. No, I'm not blind to the folly of her announcement but I sure as hell empathize with it. If I'm not leaving the party it's only because I don't see a viable alternative. Then again, I'm just a bystander. Nobody I loved more than my own life has yet died because of the collaboration of the repukes and the dems. Yes, collaboration.

We're fucked, folks, and taking it out on Cindy is ridiculous, IMHO.

edited for clarity

[Liberal Veteran]

23. From my point of view, she has even MORE reason to stay.

Splintering the anti-war faction is foolhardy in the extreme and could have the opposite effect people leaving in a huff want to have happen.

[enough already]

128. Bullsh!t

Nobody who voted for that funding last week is "anti-war". There is nothing to splinter.

[Liberal Veteran]

137. That's your opinion, but if you think you know the hearts and soul of everyone....

...then perhaps you should start your own religion.

[NotGivingUp]

233. the anti-war faction? and who in the democratic party are you talking about? nt

[TwilightGardener]

29. Nobody is taking it out on Cindy--she's taking it out on the Dems.

[KoKo]

58. Alot of DU'ers who have been in the Party for 30 or more years are calling Dems to task for their

votes and their repsonsiveness to those who think the Party is going in the wrong direction to the Right.

We are tired of being ignored...working for candidates who promise one thing and vote for another.

We are not CLONES like the Republicans.

[AndyTiedye]

25. I Have a Lot of Respect for Cindy, But

Any kind of third-party run will simply hand the election to the Repiglicans.
If that happens, they get to own the Supreme Court for the rest of our lives.

[PassingFair]

192. And that makes a difference to our current situation HOW?

If we lose a cycle to teach the war-lovers in our
own party that we MEAN BUSINESS, then it will be
a cycle WELL SPENT and LONG OVERDUE.

They have a saying in Texas....fool me once...or
fool me twice....er...we don't get fooled again.

[AndyTiedye]

248. If We "Lose a Cycle" Now...

It means 4 more years (at least) of war becomes a certainty. The whole Middle East will be embroiled in war if we give the Repigs 4 more years.

It means at least FIVE wingnuts on the Supreme Court, and they'll be there another 30 or 40 years.
Good-bye Constitution.
Roe v. Wade, Lawrence v. Texas, and Griswold v. Conn. would be early casualties. They'd probably overturn Brown v. Board too.

And 4 more years of the Repigs looting the Treasury.

[PassingFair]

283. If we had made a stand 4 years ago, our party would have

GOTTEN THE MESSAGE BY NOW.

And we would be IMPEACHING THE LYING BASTARDS.

Not ENABLING them.

We JUST KEEP PUTTING IT OFF.

[Beaverhausen]

26. My rep. and one of my senators voted the right way on this thing

Why is it all or nothing with some people?

[TwilightGardener]

30. Dems didn't end the war quickly enough for her, so fuck them, according to her.

[Heathen57]

265. The way I see it,

it isn't that the Dems didn't end the war fast enough, they didn't even try to slow it down.

Being threatened by the Great War God of the GOP they did what they always do, roll over and let the Repubs screw them again.

They are too scared to take on Bush and the rest of the criminals on anything. From the war to Gonzo, to the shredding of our Constitution.

A lot of people are upset with the Democrats right now. Perhaps if they realize they are losing the votes they got to get into power now, they will grow some backbone and quit acting like the stepchild of American Politics.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Veteran]

33. I'm a democrat and don't really appreciate being called a fascist.

[wundermaus]

71. Get used to it...

talking the talk but you don't walk the walk...

'nough said, action speaks louder... than all the BS you can spin.

[Liberal Veteran]

85. No, I won't get used to it.

How dare you come to DEMOCRATIC Underground and accuse democrats of being fascists? Who the fuck are you?

[leftynyc]

42. Is that you, Mr. Nader? (eom)

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[etherealtruth]

28. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Ms. Sheehan

She has taken tremendous personal tragedy and used it as an impetus to fight what she truly believes (as do I) is wrong. I wish her nothing but peace.

With that said ... I have never seen her as the face of, or a spokesperson for the Democratic party. I have only seen an overlap in goals. Ms. Sheehan has her own agenda (which I respect and see nothing wrong with having one's own agenda), I don't see her leaving the party as a loss to the party. I wish her well and hope for her success.

[DinahMoeHum]

36. Question (please help me here) Was she for or against going into Iraq

at the beginning?

Inquiring minds want to know.

That said, I don't recall her claiming to be a spokesperson for the Democratic Party.

:shrug:

[Auntie Bush]

183. I seem to remember her saying publicly that she is NOT a DEMOCRAT.

I believe she said she was an Independent.

[madfloridian]

38. I was told she was never a Democrat. ??

.

[KoKo]

44. OFGS.....

[JNelson6563]

39. She was never in it

She's in the Cindy party, like Lieberman is in the Lieberman party.

Julie

[etherealtruth]

55. I agree ...

but, I see nothing wrong with that.

I think the "problem" is that she was deified by some on the left ... which is always asking for trouble. To me she is simply a woman that used personal tragedy as a call to action (actions and an agenda that are all hers).

As for her leaving the party ... the best I can do is :shrug:

edit: I do disagree with the comparison to Lieberman, though ... he was entrusted with the votes of Democrats, funded by the Democratic party (and rose to positions of power assisted by the party) ... Ms. Sheehan was not.

[KoKo]

116. Being "defined on the Left" is a "problem" to you? You mean "Lefty Dems" don't belong in Dem Party?

Really...is that what you are saying...I must have not understood your post? :shrug:

BUT THEN...You added this:

edit: I do disagree with the comparison to Lieberman, though ... he was entrusted with the votes of Democrats, funded by the Democratic party (and rose to positions of power assisted by the party) ... Ms. Sheehan was not.

[etherealtruth]

120. The word I used was DEIFIED

Substituting the word "defined" for deified certainly would make my post non-sensical.

[KoKo]

124. Deified...You Mean "God Has Annointed?" Are you for Real? n/t

[etherealtruth]

131. Deified ...

as in given the attributes of a god or goddess ... yes I'm for real.

Many here saw her as a "savior" of sorts ... she DID NOT proclaim herself as such. I think she was given such high status (almost worship ... yes, here, during the height of her activism). When a group gives a real human that much adoration (it's the entire hero worship pitfall) the object of their deification can only fail because they are human.

That's why I wish Ms. Sheehan only well ... she did not claim to be working for salvation of the Democratic party ... others elevated her to that position ... if she decides that it is not meeting her needs, ah well.

The closest I come to hero worship is the way I feel about Jimmy carter (and I don't really come close to true hero worship of him)

[Straight Shooter]

41. That's a shame. Another victory for the Republicans. n/t

[BlueJazz]

45. While I don't entirely agree with her viewpoints (On quiting the Dem Party),

...I can well understand her feelings. She's done a lot for "our"
side and I can't fault her for following her political Heart...

[snowbear]

46. I thought she joined the Green Party eons ago..

Who knew she was a Democrat still?!?!?

I admire her for all that she's done for her son's sake, but her comments about how we should have NEVER GONE INTO AFGHANISTAN really had me questioning her thought process quite some time ago.

She's been bitching about Democrats for so long -- to be honest, I thought she dumped us over a year ago.

[KoKo]

60. Many Dems have veered Green because the Party didn't listen but veered back

to try to make a difference in the Party. :shrug:

[Solon]

161. And they will veer away just as quickly as before...

And the Dems, in their idiocy, will not blame there capitulations for the defection, no, they will blame the defectors themselves, either that, or say they are irrelevent, yet still say they cost the Dems elections. It probably won't happen in 2008, but I guarantee it'll happen in 2010 mid-terms, if nothing changes, or even the 2012 presidential elections.

[LWolf]

47. I respect her pov, and her choice. n/t

[KoKo]

126. Well said..."I respect her POV and her CHOICE ...it's hers to make...her SON SERVED!

Unlike those who support BUSH who DIDN'T and WON'T. THANKS!

[Vidar]

49. Cindy has certainly been more consistent & admirable than the

democratic leadership. Pelosi seems little more than Lieberman in a skirt.
Howard Dean is worthwhile but seems to have little influence on policy. The DLC reigns victorious.

[Chulanowa]

54. Just by reading this thread, we can see who the freeper moles are

Is Cindy ditching the best idea ever? Hell no.

Are all the shit posts like "see you in hell" or "good riddance", etc, necessary? Absolutely not. The smartassed pictures and dismissals? Hell no.

Hie thee on to LGF, troglodytes.

[KoKo]

62. One does wonder seeing some of these posts.....Where's the Discussion

...it's only the trashing and the Fox Type derision and ridicule. One does wonder about the "background" and "seriousness about policy" that would lead some to be so trivial in their replies.

[KittyWampus]

83. Who the fuck do you think you are calling other DU'ers "freeper miles"? If you think someone

is a freeper, hit the alert button.

[bananas]

86. Freeper moles tend to make spelling errors.

Just saying...

[KittyWampus]

222. Yeah, so? Narrow-minded, reactionary screamers can't deal with criticism of their idols

and call anyone who doesn't kiss cindy's ass a freeper mole.

Just sayin'

[KoKo]

110. REALLY? You are SERIOUS in this post?

:eyes:

[spoony]

188. Uh huh, so which ones are the moles?

The ones slamming the hell out of the party and saying they're never going to vote for a Dem again or the ones defending the party that you're so mad at?

[Chulanowa]

201. What party am I mad at?

I see posters ripping on Cindy Sheehan, and I promise you, I could find the exact same posts, word for word, on FreeRepublic, RightNation, Little Green Footballs, etc. "she's not part of our club so I hate her and she's worthless and loathsome and she was only ever a glory-whore who never cared about her son anyway"

Am I mistaken in thinking that mindless hate-posts directed at someone who diverges from one's accepted paradigm on one aspect but agrees on so many others is more indicative of a right-wing asshole than any sort of progressive? Why the sudden rage? Reading this thread, you could almost imagine that she ate a baby or something.

I don't think her ditching the party is smart - I said as much in my initial post. Disappointing as they are at the moment, the Democratic party is still our best chance for ending this war and fixing our nation. Regardless of that, Cindy does not deserve the frothing hate I'm seeing on this thread.

I mean, what the fuck? Here's a woman, dedicated to ending this war, who's stood up and put up with more than probably most of the people posting here, and there are responses to this deriding her for only getting active after her son was killed. How fucking heartless is that? Is this some sort of subculture and she's just a poseur, with folks here going "Yeah, I totally hated the war before anyone else."

So when I see mindless invective and right-wing babble propaganda being tossed around at this woman because she's looking outside the party for solutions, I don't think I'm too far off when I see similarities to the rhetoric of right-wing keyboard warriors.

[zulchzulu]

57. I'd like to know how she can help change the war's direction without being a Democrat

It takes more than 6 months to end a war. That's how long the Democrats have been in control of Congress. Without a veto-proof resolution that stops the funding, it's going to have to be incremental legislation.

Consider it like a game of chess. Sometimes you can checkmate the opponent in three moves. Usually, it takes 20 moves to checkmate someone. If you don't checkmate your opponent in five moves, do you quit?

[KoKo]

63. Sometimes being on the OUTSIDE is a help to tell the inside that the Wallpaper is Dated

and that the Refigerator needs a cleaning and so does the cat box.

[zulchzulu]

185. Really?

So if you leave an institution or a job, that gives you more input in that institution or job? Wow...that must be some good ganja...

[BeyondGeography]

68. Good luck with figuring a way out of the two-party system

In the meantime, the rest of us will slog on in the real world.

[19jet54]

69. Your are free to go or stay, YOUR choice?

... I do sympathize with your cause, your right to say it, and your reasons for saying it; but I disagree that it is "illegal" and agree that it is "immoral"; however, it should have been "illegal"?

Regarding your "leaving the democratic party"; I know many GOP folks who are "leaving the GOP party" for some of the same reasons.

Bad Bush Behavior! Rove has polarized America, Bush has raped the money & youth coffers for War, and Cheney lined the pockets of his Oil buddies while we are paying record prices for gas, to their record profits.

Keep up the fight & faith - You will soon have more friends and allies than you ever thought possible to this end, possibly from both sides of the isle!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

76. A woman with more determination than sense or judgement

I have a great deal of admiration to the amount of effort and passion she's put into trying to end the occupation of Iraq, but very little for her judgement.

I am sorry that she will not be supporting the Democrats, because doing so is undoubtedly the best way to achieve her goals, and because her support would be valuable to them, but frankly I'm not surprised she's shot herself - and the rest of us - in the foot in this way.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

91. You got an alternative to the corporate war-funding Democrats?

She doesn't have one and neither does anyone else. People are just now waking up to the fact that the Democrats are just as bought and paid for by the corporate lobbyists, as the Republicans are.

Cindy was against the war from the beginning and she begged Casey not to enlist. But he did anyway and got killed.

She has every right to speak out against the war, like every other American, and more right than the people who have not had a child killed in this immoral and illegal war.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

148. She has a right to do whatever she likes. That doesn't mean doing so will help end the occupation.

Your claim that "the Democrats are just as bought and paid for by the corporate lobbyists, as the Republicans are" is not, I think, an accurate reflection of the facts. It will, moreover, help prolong the occupation of Iraq.

Cindy Sheehan *has* a right to attack the Democrats. That doesn't mean she *is* right to do so.

[KoKo]

113. You know...they said that about the Women's Vote and the Black Vote and about every ISSUE

that moved the "People of America's" rights to anything. It's always "WHAT YOU SAY: From the Right...

"A woman with more determination than sense or judgement" You might also add in that a Woman doesn't have the RIGHT to CONTROL what's DONE TO HER BODY by the GOVERNMENT/DICTATOR/KING!

Then you show so much "CONCERN!" I would think you have a great burning in your conscience over this...Here's what YOU SAY:


I have a great deal of admiration to the amount of effort and passion she's put into trying to end the occupation of Iraq, but very little for her judgement.

I am sorry that she will not be supporting the Democrats, because doing so is undoubtedly the best way to achieve her goals, and because her support would be valuable to them, but frankly I'm not surprised she's shot herself - and the rest of us - in the foot in this way.

I'm thinking that you are working to have this post locked.

[dbackjon]

77. Buh-bye: Better for all this way.

[KoKo]

105. Better for "Who All" this way?

:shrug: Didn't understand your post...

[William769]

89. May she find solace in her endeavors.

[uppityperson]

102. I understand her frustrations and thank her for her tireless work.

[Speck Tater]

112. BREAKING: DU in a state of civil war.

Oh, wait. That's not news. That's business as usual.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat."

--Will Rogers

[wyldwolf]

115. na na nana na na nana hey hey hey...

[KoKo]

149. Hey...Wyld...do you rock down there at Myrtle Beach...

If so...tell me what bar you are at...

[Solon]

166. Don't blame Wolfie boy, he thinks Cindy is a Communist plant...

Yes, he actually meant that literally.

[KoKo]

171. Sadly...you are probably correct...........n/t

[Solon]

173. Not probably, absolutely correct...

I remember this one thread of his because it was so outrageous, from a little while ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3042617

[KoKo]

180. yep...you were correct. n/t

[wyldwolf]

238. no, but her cause has been hijacked. She's counter productive. Good riddance.

[wyldwolf]

240. do you need a geography lesson?

[OwnedByFerrets]

121. Reading some of these posts.....

make me feel like I am reading from FreeperLand. Damn people, this woman has lost her son to a lie. She has earned the right to say whatever the FUCK she wants to about this administration and about the democrats who just voted to continue it and the dying.
Yes, you have the right to say mean things about Cindy, but trust me, those words feel more at home at "that other site".:puke:

[MichiganVote]

127. Agree.

[Solon]

134. To some people, partisanship trumps human decency...

As long as THEIR PARTY wins, they really don't give a fuck about anything else.

[KoKo]

138. Exactly...."Don't Feed the Trolls" it's a Good Thing...because the are kind

of "always out of it." Simple minded...and can't reply with sense or sustain a discussion or a disagreement with their doctrinaire vies of the world.

I shoulda learned.......:-(

[enough already]

140. Very well said n/t

[MODemocrat]

191. Many of us have suffered tremendous losses

but that doesn't give us the right to flambast anyone or everyone whom we feel have betrayed us, and
not expect repercussions.

Cindy has worked diligently for this cause, but sometimes, she can be pretty callous in her
words.

[Solon]

219. Repercussions? Tell that to the people who are really going to pay...

Those fathers, mothers, husbands, wives, and children that will lose their closest relations to this damned war. To be frank, I'm fucking sick and tired of this "My party, right or wrong" bullshit! Why the fuck can't the DEMOCRATS face consequences for THEIR decisions, the same as the Repukes have and will continue to face those consequences? Why the fuck are Democrats above reproach?

[LibraLiz1973]

259. She didn't earn the right to say whatever she wants because her son died

She was born with that right. Losing a loved on in Iraq didn't give her the right to use her voice- it gave her the chance to use it louder than she might have.

Cindy has taken her responsibility as Casey's parent very seriously and it is touching/sad to see. I respect what she does to keep his memory alive and to fight for other peoples children who are stuck in the war. That said, you & I and everyone else here have just as much RIGHT to express our opinions on this administration and this war- not to mention the Democrats WHO DID IN FACT VOTE TO CONTINUE THIS FUCKING FARCE.

[puebloknot]

261. Well said! nt

[BlueIris]

122. I had a feeling it was going to come to this. Peace, Ms. Sheehan.

[mzteris]

132. You were a Democrat???

don't the screen door hit you on the @ss on the way out.

Please make sure the MSM KNOWS you're *not a Democrat* anymore. (whew)

[PresidentObama]

135. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, Cindy. n/t

[venable]

136. Hating on Cindy: A new level of vapid

I am truly astonished that this wonderful woman who has shown courage and fight is trashed on DU.

I really do wonder about some people and what they are up to, if Cindy Sheehan is not welcome where they are.

Who has done more (by a factor of about a billion) to take back this country: Cindy, or wienerdog?

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

142. Dear Cindy Sheehan.

Ma'am, I have kinfolk over there. I have friends over there. One of my friend who was there recently came back.
When I saw him back at work, I gave him a big bear hug. It was good to see him home in one piece.

I'm sure everyday you wish your Casey had come home alive. I understand why you did what you did and why you feel the frustration you feel. I'm frustrated, too. The Democrats did roll over. Yes, the Washington intelligentsia will give every CNN sob story they can. But Cindy, You are right. The congressional Democrats should have sent that bill, with timetables and forced the President's hand on this matter. Instead, George W. Bush got another blank check without accountability. On that breach, you are right.

However, there is a way out within the party...and I extend this invitation to all those who want to see this war end. Instead of supporting people who say we have to keep this going and trying tapdance around the hard choices, consider a presidential candidate who said this "war" was a bad idea from the beginning and put his vote in Congress behind that opinion.

Consider a presidential candidate who has put forth a plan to end this conflict and put up articles of impeachment against one of the chief architects of this scheme.

Consider a presidential candidate who has an American agenda for the 21st century, and realizes that we can't consider building that America until we dismantle this reckless adventure in Iraq.

I urge you ma'am, and the millions of others who are crying ENOUGH!

The candidate who is listening to you is in the fight...and his name is Dennis Kucinich.

[robcon]

143. This Cindy love-in is really silly.

She's a dimwit, but she was briefly an effective publicist against the war. She wasn't doing anything for Democrats, and we won't miss her.

[venable]

150. I just have a different take

I don't think she's a dimwit, and I don't think: "What has Cindy done for me recently?"

Sure, she's not MLK, but she is Cindy Sheehan, and that's enough for me.

I don't think her leaving the party will cause others to jump ship, but the attitude of some on this thread is baffling.

[John Q. Citizen]

232. Pelosi and Reid, now they are really doing something for Dems. Buying the war, for

only 120 billion. Such a deal. That will really help.

I'm so glad we have so many good Dems doing wonderful things.

In fact, have you written them a letter yet praising them for giving bush a blank check? Because if you haven't, I think you should, They need to know that rolling over for bush is what people want.

[Poll_Blind]

251. Yep. I guess it's ok to hate on widows and gold star mothers if...

...they don't toe the line.

  Where have I seen that sort of behavior before?

  What a sham.

PB

[NastyRiffraff]

144. Yawn...

Really, why is this news? Cindy has never been for the Democratic Party. So what's there to "leave"?

And no, I don't hate Cindy. In some ways I respect her. But I've never seen her as the face of the Democratic Party. I certainly don't think her "leaving" it will have any impact at all.

[liberal renegade]

146. Cindy

don't jump the gun, it's a little to early for that. Every vote for an independent is a vote for a repuke. Take some time off, lord knows you deserve it...

Lots of people pissing on their neighbors in here. CHILL!

[IndianaGreen]

151. At least she doesn't have blood on her hands, like Reid and Pelosi now have

At least she doesn't have blood on her hands, like Reid and Pelosi now have, or like those that support this Democratic version of Neville Chamberlain's appeasement at Munich in 1938.

The Democratic betrayal of those that put them in office to end the war is inexcusable!

[KoKo]

155. But..."Indiana" ..Pelosi VOTED NO! Reid voted Yes...there's a difference

even if you see Pelosi's vote as Pandering...SHE took a stand and Reid DIDN't!

She also supported MURTHA (with all his flaws) against that Shark, Hoyer!

I'm not supporting Pelosi....I'm waiting and watching...BUT...there WAS A DIFFERENCE IN THE VOTE! for whatever reason...

[IndianaGreen]

164. Pelosi's infamous parliamentary motion was her betrayal to the voters

The worst part of it all was the overt efforts to deceive the public - as if we’re all just a bunch of morons. House Democrats have the nerve to continue to insist the blank check they helped ram through the House was all the Republicans doing, and that a sham vote on a GOP amendment today - which most Democrats opposed for show - was the real vote for the war. But, again, as the AP reported, it was their parliamentary motion - passed so quickly and under the devious pretenses of mundane procedural necessity - that showed their calculated complicity. Now, tonight, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee is actually sending out fundraising emails claiming “the House just passed legislation that will go to the White House that includes critical issues Democrats have been fighting for including canceling the President’s blank check in Iraq.” Beyond nauseating.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/25/1447/

[KoKo]

170. Sadly it was Lefty Dem Heroine Congresswoman Louis Slaughter (D-NY)

who did that dirty Parliamentary Deed. I don't know if she did it for Hoyer or Pelosi. I posted about David Sirota (Labor Dem)'s view of the whole fiasco the night it happened. Thursday night, I think.

Anyway, it was Slaughter's Parliamentary move that made them vote in haste to send it to Senate so ALL could get outta town for Memorial Day Holiday.

I still blame Hoyer for that although I thought Slaughter was progressive enough to stand with Pelosi.

Who knows...they all seem part of some WEIRD CABAL doing stuff that always keeps us off guard.

BUT...I still think bettr of Pelosi than that wimpy Reid ...no matter how many DU'ers pump that apologist up. He's no better than "handwringing Daschle' in my view. But...as I said...I don't think we out here know the truth of anything and THAT IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM! What we don't KNOW about our OWN PARTY causes folks to say ..."THE HELL WITH IT!"

[progressoid]

152. Okey Dokey.

[jakem]

153. I don't blame her. And certainly share some of her frustrations,

but man, what a bunch of fucked up responses in here.
This whole 'see ya, dont let the door slam you in the ass' attitude is a bad trend.

[Solon]

154. This thread illustrates EXACTLY why I will never join the Democratic party...

I hate partisanship of any sort, its like Nationalism(My country/party, right or wrong), but even more dangerous.

[KoKo]

156. While I can understand your "distance." This post is one that does

cause folks of conscience to take some sides. Cindy was the FIRST TO STAND UP (as private citizen) AGAINST BUSH...protesting in 100 degree heat in a DITCH on the SIDE OF THE ROAD to CATCH BUSH "PROCESSION by MOTORCADE to his "Fake Ranch/Pig Farm" down the road!

She suffered to bring TRUTH TO POWER.... WE SHOULD NOT ALLOW the uninformed/flybye's to DISS HER!

[Solon]

158. Exactly, and, as I said, that's why I'm not partisan...

The personal attacks exhibited in this thread are part of the PROBLEM with this country, not part of the solution. I mean, for fuck's sake, don't take what Cindy says about the Democratic party personally. The party isn't the sole harbinger of decency and good ideas in this country. Some people put on Jackass blinders, and see nothing outside them, they are, frankly, pathetic.

[KoKo]

159. Okay...I gotcha on the Second Post...not the first. n/t

[rucky]

157. That's what anybody would do if they were ignored at a party. n/t

[candice]

162. Unfortunately, it was those who voted for Nadar...who gave us Bush...

the perfect foil for the NeoCon's war to install "democracy" in Iraq (and have a safe oil-rich country at their command). Anyone who doesn't vote Democratic is voting for more of the same. If the Dems had enough votes to stop the war now, the leadership would follow through. Remember that the control is very precarious and many Dems who are newly elected are right leaning.

[Solon]

165. OK, what the fuck?!?!

The dems do NOT deserve anyone's vote, they have to EARN it, and the fact of the matter is this. If the Dems lose the left because of several reasons, whether to the Greens, another party, or the voters just decide to stay at home, then the Dems only have themselves to blame. They cannot, rightly, ignore the left, saying they are irrelevant, then turn around, when they lose an election, and lay the blame on that very same left that they said was irrelevant.

[John Q. Citizen]

229. Amamzing, The 3% of voters who voted for Nadar are the problem, not the stolen votes,

the over 50% of eligible voters who don't vote, or the people who voted for bush.

No, it's those 3% who are the real problem.

It wasn't the Dem Senators who refused to stand up with the Black Congressional Caucas when our votes were stolen. No, all those Dem Senators are blameless for allowing bush to rip off an election, when all they had to do was stand up.

It wasn't the Democratically controlled Senate's fault for voting to go to war in 2002, who got us into the war, it was the Nadar voters fault.

It's those 3%. They are the real problem. It's their fault the Dems won't impeach, and put Chaney and bush into the docket and make them testify in front of congress.

/sarcasm

candice, my analysis is that you are in denial and you need a scapegoat to blame for the actions and inactions of the Dems/Repos. If you want/need to blame someone else for the mess we are in, go for it. Your analysis is pretty flawed though. The Dems didn't have to pass a funding bill. Nancy Pelosi can just not schedule a vote to fund the war. The Dems could have just sent the same bill back to bush that they passed with the fake timetables.

Instead, they caved.


Think about it.

[IndianaGreen]

275. GOP blames everything on Clinton, and DLC Dems blame everything on Nader

Anyone who doesn't vote Democratic is voting for more of the same.

Well, we got more of the same again! Our putting Dems in control of Congress got us the same shit we were getting before.

Dems didn't have to send another funding bill to Bush, as Kucinich suggested, or they could have send the same bill that he vetoed earlier, as Edwards advocated. Instead, they chose to betray the voters that elected them by turning Bush's war into a Democratic war.

Thanks a lot!

[sanskritwarrior]

163. dear Cindy

sorry to see you go, but you don't run the party. Will you take Medea Benjamin and Joe Lieberman with you, we could definitely stand to lose those two wastes of humanity.

[uppityperson]

169. what do you have against Medea?

[sanskritwarrior]

175. I don't like her she has done some things that I as a soldier find

questionable......

[uppityperson]

176. What has she done that you, as a soldier, find...questionable?

(glad you know what "oxymoron" meant)

[sanskritwarrior]

177. I was just ignoring your snark.......

[uppityperson]

178. I think you are bright, not moronish, but your name is interesting.

I don't forget it. Some people hear "oxymoron" and think it is a snide way of saying not bright. Oxymorons are phrases in which the words mean different things.

So, what has Medea done that you find questionable?

[sanskritwarrior]

181. I know what an oxymoron is

I am just being difficult because I have a bad cold and the drugs make me not as friendly as usual.......

[uppityperson]

182. hot lemonade, or toddy, feet up, sit in the sun.

hope you feel better soon.

[IndianaGreen]

184. Yet, you have no moral qualms about following Bush's orders

even when it involves sending you back to Iraq in December on another reckless and unnecessary combat tour. You might not care about your predicament, preferring to hide behind the "I am only following orders" excuse, but do not go about criticizing those peace activists that are trying to save the lives of troops by ending the war.

[sanskritwarrior]

186. What oath did Ms. sheehan take that is binding by law

and IG we've had this talk before you're just too mule headed to see any other POV.....

[IndianaGreen]

187. You chose your path, but don't criticize those that are trying to end the war

I will only repeat what I told you before, the only oath you took was to defend and protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Nowhere does it say anything about unquestioned loyalty to the Commander-in-Chief.

[sanskritwarrior]

195. Do you have the cliffnotes version of the oath???

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


The only way I get out of this oath is if the President is declared an enemy by the Congress............Did that happen last week or did the Congress give him more money for the war.............

Look IG, I know you have your own reality, but in the real world that oath must be followed until such time as the Congress or the courts deem the man in charge not worthy of that oath...........That's not following orders, that's following the oath. But you may interpret it whatever way you choose, just don't be alarmed when people who have taken that oath tell you, that you are full of crap......

[IndianaGreen]

203. The Democratic Congress felt that 3,500 dead GIs weren't enough, so they funded the war

by doing an impersonation of Neville Chamberlain. :-(

[w4rma]

172. Warmongerers like it when peace activists leave the Democratic Party. Warmongerers win primaries

when there are fewer peace supporters opposing them and voting for their primary opponents.

[smalll]

197. That's "warmongers" dear. Perhaps you were thinking of "malingerers"? "Hunter-gatherers"? /nt

[w4rma]

198. Irregardless of my spelling error, my point is accurate.

This is from the preface in the 2nd edition of his book, "You Have the Power" (2006). He thought a long time about trying for the position. I thought these were interesting words. It shows a lot of why he chose not to go for a 3rd party, and how he wants us to work for change from the grassroots while he tries to affect change from the top level downward.

As a governor, I had seen the DNC as little more than an organization dedicated to electing a president, one that had long neglected cultivating the state and local candidates who would form the foundation of a strong party for generations to come. When I was a candidate for president, my interaction with the DNC was even more frustrating -- it seemed like a bastion of Washington-based consultants who had no interest in hearing what I was saying, much less supporting what I was doing. Did I really want to lead a party that I loved but had been at war with for over a year?

I had friends -- both among DFA supporters and within the labor movement -- who wanted me to consider starting a third party. They noted that my campaign had been a movement that went far beyond me; after my campaign ended, Dean for America supporters had set up Democracy for America organizations in just about every state. These people were active, energized, and ready to bring about real change in American politics. Again, I looked to them for leadership. What I saw was that instead of abandoning the Democratic Party, DFA members began working within the Democratic Party to bring the bottom-up change that I had been talking about.

As I watched what was happening in state party after state party, I realized there was no way I could indulge thoughts of leading a third party when the people whose ideas I trusted and whose energy I relied on were working within the system to strengthen the Democratic Party. If these activists were really bringing about change in the Democratic Party from the grass roots up, it might just be possible for me to help them by working to change the party from the top down.

The resistance to my candidacy once again came from Beltway insiders, who said that my election would signal a leftward lurch in the party, that we'd be permanently relinquishing the South.

He then recalled what he had said in his acceptance speech for chairman:

He said this "wasn't going to be my chairmanship; it was going to be our chairmanship, and that I intended to listen to voices from outside the Beltway, the real voices of the Democratic Party.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2615347

[smalll]

199. And "irregardless" is not a word.

Sorry! :hi:

[w4rma]

204. Definition of irregardless - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

irregardless
Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

[smalll]

205. Check your own cut-and-pastes:

"Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead."

[w4rma]

207. I like the word. I'm using the word. You are wrong. Webster says: "There is such a word" (nt)

[Colobo]

179. Bye Cindy. Go in peace. Ve con Dios.

[MODemocrat]

189. Cindy, maybe you can figure out how to end this war

If it's so easy to get past George Bush, it makes we wonder why you've never been able to get him to
meet with you.
Good luck on ending Bush's quagmire.:eyes: :eyes: Last week, you were contemplating
running for congress; did you give that up?

[HardWorkingDem]

193. I'm sorry, but go in peace....because...

when you become the story beyond the cause, then maybe it's time.

[bling bling]

194. Good luck making a change Cindy.

You're spirit is in the right place. Get enough people on board with you, and there's no telling what can happen.

But I do hope you and your close followers will at least give Obama a fair evaluation and consider voting for him in the primary. If Obama is elected and turns out to be as tainted as the rest of them, I'll leave the party myself because at that point there will truly be no hope left. But right now I sincerely think he's the best option for leading the country in a new direction that will ultimately benefit us all.

[smalll]

196. All this tells me is that Medea Benjamin...

and the rest of Cindy's splinter-trotskyist/crypto-communist handlers have decided to cry "social fascism" rather than play the Popular Front card this go-round, and they have moved their Goodling-voiced pawn accordingly. No doubt they have fun playing their little games of make-believe Ninteen-Thirties.

[IndianaGreen]

209. Democratic Congress turned into a Menshevik Duma

unable and unwilling to pull our troops out of the Tsar's war in Iraq.

Time for a Bolshevik Party to rise and storm the Winter Palace and end the war.

[calteacherguy]

200. Sad. I feel sad for her. She's becoming a very tragic figure. nt

[saracat]

202. Oh please.Cindy was never a Democrat to begin with.She has stated so herself,

Her "leaving" is bogus.. I happen to agree with much of her sentiment but her "solution" is NOT the answer. A 3rd party is NOT going to give us either house or the WH. W e have to shore up the Democratic Parrtty in order to make change and that is the real solution.

[snowbear]

206. Someone should update Wikipedia.. they have her party status on their front page..

Why on earth do they put this directly under her feelings towards the war in Iraq:

"Sheehan states she has "always been a Democrat"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cindy_Sheehan



I agree with you SaraCat.. She's been down on Democrats forever.

I'm just curious why Wikipedia wants her party affiliation front and center on their page?

(actually: that should've read.. "her former party affiliation)

I don't know how to send in updates to Wikipedia. But it's insane the way they format their info there.

[Solon]

208. How do you shore up a party that has repeatedly ignored you?

The fact of the matter is that, apparently, the Democratic party isn't part of the solution, but just a slightly smaller cog in the death machine. In a case like that, what more can be done? The Democrats got their mandate, and because of stupid shortsightedness, they decided to prolong a scam that is costing lives. At what point do people say: "enough is enough"?

[snowbear]

210. Don't know about you Solon, but I'm a proud Democrat myself.

Sure, they aren't perfect ---

But I sure am glad the chickenshits are out of power now!!!!



Too bad we don't have more Democrats though..

It will happen though.

The odds of gaining quite a few more seats next year are looking great!

[Solon]

213. I don't see why people hold such loyalty towards any party...

granted its the same with country as well, I'm no patriot or nationalist either, actually, I can't even tell the difference between those.

As far as the Democrats go, well, they are a party of convenience, I've been a registered Independent since I was old enough to vote, and the first president I voted for was Bill Clinton, for his re-election. To be honest, it was a vote between him, and the greater evil, Bob Dole, who I despised. In fact, in every election since then, I voted for the "lesser evil". To be frank about it, I don't even know why I bother, as far as I can tell, while the parties aren't exact, they are getting closer together, ideologically, than I'm comfortable with. At this point, the only reason I vote Democrat is because there is a lack of choice. Not that it matters, I'm in an area where the only third party available is the Libertarian Party, and they are definitely are just Repukes who smoke dope.

I voted Democratic in the 2006 election in the hope that they would, at the very least, stand up to Bush on the war. Instead I get a minimum wage hike that is propped up on the bodies of even more soldiers and Iraqi civilians who will die because the Dems apparently believe in winning elections instead of doing the right thing.

[IndianaGreen]

214. Did Pelosi and Reid made you proud when they caved-in to Bush?

The odds of gaining quite a few more seats next year are looking great!

I doubt that! Democrats had an electoral mandate to end the war, instead they squandered the opportunity to defund the war when they gave Bush everything he wanted with no strings attached.

SHAME!

This is now a bipartisan war!

[Lord Helmet]

220. it takes 67 votes to override a veto

maybe people should count first before whining

[Solon]

221. So, they didn't need to override the veto, just could have sent the same bill to Bush...

and turn it around as HE is the one who doesn't support funding the troops. Instead we get them to capitulate, looking weak in the process, and the troops are screwed.

[IndianaGreen]

271. Democrats didn't need to send a bill to Bush at all!

There is no Constitutional requirement to resubmit a bill after a Presidential veto. That's what Dennis Kucinich said, don't send a funding bill out of Congress.

Let the war die on the vine!

[sampsonblk]

298. Didn't get a response to that one did you?

That's it right there.

Sending Bush is a bill - especially this one - is completely without conscience.

[IndianaGreen]

304. It is an inconvenient truth that Dems could have ended the war by doing NOTHING!

Starve the war on the vine!

[Lord Helmet]

217. bah bye

[cleveramerican]

223. Dear Cindy

I'm sorry to see you go, but I saw it coming a mile away. Your passion has inspired many.Your passion has led you to this decision and I respect that, although I don't think its likely to get you any closer to your goal.
Democracy is sometimes messy and seldom follows are clear arc. Democracy requires compromise. Passion does not. Follow your passion wherever it leads you and I'll be here working the levers of compromise trying to achieve the same goal as you but with different tactics.I hope you can understand my view as genuinely as I understand yours.God Bless You.

[JCMach1]

224. she has Naderized the Iraq-war issue

and made it about her and HER politics... not the issue....

[Carolina]

227. 2008 won't make a difference

Cindy's right and she's not alone. Read the following LTE to the Washington Post from the parent of another young man killed in Iraq:

I Lost My Son to a War I Oppose. We Were Both Doing Our Duty. By Andrew J. Bacevich

Sunday, May 27, 2007

Parents who lose children ... inevitably wonder what they could have done to prevent their loss. When my son was killed in Iraq earlier this month at age 27, I found myself pondering my responsibility for his death.

Among the hundreds of messages that my wife and I have received, two bore directly on this question. Both held me personally culpable, insisting that my public opposition to the war had provided aid and comfort to the enemy. Each said that my son's death came as a direct result of my antiwar writings.

This may seem a vile accusation to lay against a grieving father. But in fact, it has become a staple of American political discourse, repeated endlessly by those keen to allow President Bush a free hand in waging his war. By encouraging "the terrorists," opponents of the Iraq conflict increase the risk to U.S. troops. Although the First Amendment protects antiwar critics from being tried for treason, it provides no protection for the hardly less serious charge of failing to support the troops -- today's civic equivalent of dereliction of duty.

What exactly is a father's duty when his son is sent into harm's way?

--snip--

As a citizen, I have tried since Sept. 11, 2001, to promote a critical understanding of U.S. foreign policy. I know that even now, people of good will find much to admire in Bush's response to that awful day. They applaud his doctrine of preventive war. They endorse his crusade to spread democracy across the Muslim world and to eliminate tyranny from the face of the Earth. They insist not only that his decision to invade Iraq in 2003 was correct but that the war there can still be won. Some --the members of the "the-surge-is-already-working" school of thought -- even profess to see victory just over the horizon.

I believe that such notions are dead wrong and doomed to fail. In books, articles and op-ed pieces, in talks to audiences large and small, I have said as much. "The long war is an unwinnable one," I wrote in this section of The Washington Post in August 2005. "The United States needs to liquidate its presence in Iraq, placing the onus on Iraqis to decide their fate and creating the space for other regional powers to assist in brokering a political settlement. We've done all that we can do."

Not for a second did I expect my own efforts to make a difference. But I did nurse the hope that my voice might combine with those of others -- teachers, writers, activists and ordinary folks -- to educate the public about the folly of the course on which the nation has embarked. I hoped that those efforts might produce a political climate conducive to change. I genuinely believed that if the people spoke, our leaders in Washington would listen and respond.

This, I can now see, was an illusion.

The people have spoken, and nothing of substance has changed. The November 2006 midterm elections signified an unambiguous repudiation of the policies that landed us in our present predicament. But half a year later, the war continues, with no end in sight. Indeed, by sending more troops to Iraq (and by extending the tours of those, like my son, who were already there), Bush has signaled his complete disregard for what was once quaintly referred to as "the will of the people."

To be fair, responsibility for the war's continuation now rests no less with the Democrats who control Congress than with the president and his party. After my son's death, my state's senators, Edward M. Kennedy and John F. Kerry, telephoned to express their condolences. Stephen F. Lynch, our congressman, attended my son's wake. Kerry was present for the funeral Mass. My family and I greatly appreciated such gestures. But when I suggested to each of them the necessity of ending the war, I got the brushoff. More accurately, after ever so briefly pretending to listen, each treated me to a convoluted explanation that said in essence: Don't blame me.

To whom do Kennedy, Kerry and Lynch listen? We know the answer: to the same people who have the ear of George W. Bush and Karl Rove -- namely, wealthy individuals and institutions.

Money buys access and influence. Money greases the process that will yield us a new president in 2008. When it comes to Iraq, money ensures that the concerns of big business, big oil, bellicose evangelicals and Middle East allies gain a hearing. By comparison, the lives of U.S. soldiers figure as an afterthought.

Memorial Day orators will say that a G.I.'s life is priceless. Don't believe it. I know what value the U.S. government assigns to a soldier's life: I've been handed the check. It's roughly what the Yankees will pay Roger Clemens per inning once he starts pitching next month.

Money maintains the Republican/Democratic duopoly of trivialized politics. It confines the debate over U.S. policy to well-hewn channels. It preserves intact the cliches of 1933-45 about isolationism, appeasement and the nation's call to "global leadership." It inhibits any serious accounting of exactly how much our misadventure in Iraq is costing. It ignores completely the question of who actually pays. It negates democracy, rendering free speech little more than a means of recording dissent.

This is not some great conspiracy. It's the way our system works...


Andrew J. Bacevich teaches history and international relations at Boston University. His son died May 13 after a suicide bomb explosion in Salah al-Din province.
---
BTW, this thread is a dupe
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x975766

[Justyce]

228. All this talk of "leaving the Dem party"

not just by her, but in general, really really worries me. If the Dem party splinters, you can bet your ass the repubs will win the election hands down.

[GreenEyedLefty]

230. I've studied, watched, listened and thought hard about Iraq

And think that both sides are right about Iraq. We need to pull out (Democrats) but can't do so precipitously (Republicans).

I can't fathom an issue where we're more thoroughly fucked than this one. Honestly, there is no good solution here. But to leave the Democratic Party in a snit because the Congress didn't do your bidding isn't doing anyone any good.

[NotGivingUp]

231. '..."two" party system that is bought and paid for by the war machine

which has a stranglehold on every aspect of our lives'

perfectly stated. absolutely true. i agree with cindy 100%.

[disndat]

235. Run Gore Run!

I feel Cindy's frustration, but after attending Al Gore's book signing, I felt somewhat more hopeful. I think even Cindy could rally behind his candidacy. Gore is the only one who could unite us, including anti-war Republicans, Greens, and the whole world watching this horrific quagmire in the Middle East. Who knows if the WH plans to escalate this war "to end it," as General Petraeus has announced. If they attack Iran that would be the beginning of the end. I have heard that the funding bill was a foregone conclusion, confirmed on Sam Seder's show yesterday. Carl Levin, an AIPAC tool in the Senate, is the culprit behind this Democrats betrayal.

[CitizenLeft]

236. this war is tearing this party apart

I was too young to get the nuances during the VietNam war, but I'm sure the party was torn then, too, and we survived. But this? How can we survive this war as a viable party if all we do is rip each other to shreds over every f***ing comment? I've never seen such divisiveness and viciousness in all my life, and I've been active on message boards since 1995. Thread after thread after thread of people, ALL WANTING THE SAME THING, bashing each other over the head with a hammer because somebody has a different way of achieving the desired end result - ending the war. We ALL want to end the war. I don't dare even give my opinion about anything any more, who knows whose going to leap out of the woodwork and pounce because I dared to defend the party, or Congress, or a stance, or a bill, or anything at all? Jesus Christ, it's depressing.

:shrug:

[focusfan]

237. congress let the people down

that voted for them but think of it like this congress could
be runned by the Repukes just think about things could be
worse being runned by them.:evilgrin: 

[Totally Committed]

239. For those angered, upset, or frustrated with Ms. Sheehan,

Please read my humble suggestion for a proper venuse for your displaced feelings:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3287662

Thanks,

TC

[derby378]

241. Just heard back from Cindy...

I told her that she still had at least one pissed off Democratic precinct chair in Dallas, TX who was still on her side, and she thanked me for my perseverance, but she's going to be doing things "extra-politically" from this point onward.

You hear that, compromisers? This is the woman whose courage helped put you in Congress, and you just turned around and stabbed her - and everyone who stood with her - in the back.

[Mz Pip]

244. Whatever

Cindy Sheehan has never motivated me to do anything. I was opposed to the war long before I ever heard of her.

I find this black and white attitude regarding Sheehan interesting. I agree with her about the war and can't imagine how I would feel if I lost a kid in that fiasco. However that doesn't make her a saint IMHO. Her kissing up to Chavez really turned me off.

So now she's leaving the Democratic Party. Whatever. We may have lost this battle but we have not lost the war. I'm not ready to call it quits just yet.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[EndElectoral]

245. I empathisize with her...I really don't want the Democratic Party become the lesser of two evils.

This vote was disgraceful.

[midnight]

246. Cindy is an intelligent women, who has been willing to do lots of

the work to change the direction of this country. If she wants to tell the Democratic party good-bye, then she must have done all she felt neccessary for the pary she could do. When she leaves, she leaves a space that hopefully will be filled with the same force for change that she contributed to the Dems. Cindy we love you, and know that whatever you do it is to end this crime.

[leftist.]

284. Im not kidding, how is she "intelligent"?

She hates the war? OMFG so does everyone else lol! How does that suddenly make her Kreskin?! Just let her go. She wants to do this whole bs "I'm leaving you" nonsense, don't give her the attention she wants. Just move on to other things.

[scarface2004]

249. i'm as disgusted as cindy....

but there's nowhere else to go. let's replace the current dems with the most progressive dems we can find. eventually we will prevail and make the rethuglican party extinct.

[NastyDiaper]

250. "Good Riddance Attention Whore" ???

I have endured a lot of smear and hatred since Casey was killed and especially since I became the so-called "Face" of the American anti-war movement. Especially since I renounced any tie I have remaining with the Democratic Party, I have been further trashed on such "liberal blogs" as the Democratic Underground. Being called an "attention whore" and being told "good riddance" are some of the more milder rebukes.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/5/28/12530/1525

...*sigh* can't find that phrase. But get this people: One of the cool things about our new media is that we get close to people. Road rage is lots of fun maybe until both drivers pull into the same office parking lot.

And on the topic here is my take: Harry Reid is as horrified as anyone at the position he's in. People have every reason to be angry at him. My gut tells me that Reid himself was first in that line.

Many principled people have taken positions incompatible with other principaled people. People should say what they think. Fine.

But the hole we are now in was not dug in a single day. Neither will it be filled.

PEACE (at least maybe stop burning bridges)

[ohio2007]

267. She called herself "attention whore" by the title of her own entry

She isn't on the DNC radar anymore. I doubt another hot summer in Crawford would be wirth the attention she won't be getting.

[NastyDiaper]

288. Ya I was reading KOS when I saw her post come up.

[DemBones DemBones]

306. She was called "attention whore" at DU, probably in this thread --

you'll notice quite a few posts have been deleted.

[Mrspeeker]

255. Keep in mind....this site is for ppl with democratic views

Its not the DNC's site, so we have every right to post anything relevant to democracy and obviously, A TWO PARTY SYSTEM..is not a real functioning democracy.

I left the Democratic party years ago and partys all together, when I finally woke up and turned off my TV and started reading and researching. They are all in it together minus a few stand outs like Dennis Kucinich.

So I'm democratic but the Democrats don't represent my view because its not so much Demo, or Repub..its about the classes that our country has created. Nothing has changed from the days of Kings and Queens..just titles have.


So are you going to call me names to?

[Tom Joad]

262. The Democratic Party has a long history of supporting military occupation in the Middle East

It has never wavered in its support for the unjust and brutal Israeli military occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights.... and never wanted anything except a "peace" deal (surrender deal) that would be favorable to the occupier and their desire to expand their empire, ignoring international law and every standard of fairness. 40 years of that shit, and many of us have had more than enough.

It is the democratic party, just as much as the Republican Party, that has supported a real cache of weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East, and defied US and international law in order to facilitate that charade. US military aid to Israel is in violation of numerous US laws because of its possession of nuclear weapons. This double-standard has made it impossible for the US to have much credibility in the region.

remember that it was Clinton who faithfully continued the BushI embargo on the people of Iraq, causing thousands of casualties, including many children. It was the Clinton administration that decided to support "regime change" in Iraq. It bombed Iraq on numerous occasions.

So why, why, are we surprised that once again the Democratic Party "betrays" the anti-war base.
It has never, never, had any connection with people who really oppose militarism, and has always, at best, only pretended to oppose war, or some narrow aspect of the war against the people of the middle east (or for that matter, much of the third-world).

The Democratic Party, from way back, including the war criminal LBJ and others, have always supported wars of aggression. Have always supported the ruling class, and have always been willing to use our sons (and now our daughters) to wage their wars, to kill other people who want only to work and play and live their lives in peace.

[Edgeoforever]

263. The party is in bad shape. leaving it - not the smartest thing, But I get her.

[treestar]

277. When you're only interested in one issue

Things like this happen.

Also when you boil that issue down to one bill - it just increases the chances.

[leftist.]

282. zOMG what a smart idea!!!

Shit like this is retarded, especially in an omg "Open Letter Form". Cindy, you go right ahead and teach everyone a lesson but it's a two-party system and that shit ain't changing so rock the vote for Perot and get fucked. I'm a liberal socialist and I fucking HATE the democrats right now BUT guess where my vote goes come November, 2008? Democrat, baby! Sorry about your son getting shot up and all but come on, don't be a douche.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

300. "Sorry about your son getting shot up and all but come on, don't be a douche."

How low can you sink, Sir?

[illinoisprogressive]

285. she's leaving the movement altogether.

[leftist.]

286. Cruising down the street in my '64 ...

... just saying.

[BigDDem]

290. So, she's leaving the Democratic Party.....

What's she going to do? Join Ralph and the "Not a dimes worth
of difference" warriors?

[LittleClarkie]

302. Frankly, I reckon she was never really a Dem anyway

and yes, I think she's more of a Green sort of person.

You can't lose what you never had.

[AZBlue]

295. Again?

Hasn't she announced this several times previously??? It's becoming as common as the US capturing al-qaeda's #2 man.

[DoctorStrangelove]

301. Smeared by both the Left and the Right

Curiously, she has attracted hatred from both the Left and the Right in America.

[LittleClarkie]

305. I just wish we'd elected a Democrat president

Then we really would have elected someone to guide the ship of state.

And it remains, regardless of what she says, Bush's war.

We didn't have the votes.

We could have gone down fighting. But we would have gone down. I for one do not need symbolic gestures to make me feel better. As long as the power still remains in THEIR hands, then it is still THEIR war.

[AtomicKitten]

308. I thought she left the Democratic Party a long time ago.

:shrug: