Edwards, mandatory service, going to wars, candidate's own words

[The Count]

yesterday I posted a thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3284890&mesg_id=3284890
about Edwards's advocating mandatory service
"so that everybody in America--not just the poor kids who get sent to war--are serving this country,"
I had jumped to the conclusion that "mandatory"+"Going to wars"=military.
It can mean civil contractors, latrine cleaners, observers - you name it...
I admit I merely copied the title of the Nr #1 electoral news at digg.com...
(yeah, in other parts of the internet, these things are allowed)
I don't pretend to know exactly what Edwards meant by that service.
To most it sounds very much like draft.
At best, it may have been an absurd attempt to copy Charlie Rangel's stunt. I was angry with Charlie too(whom I love) - but at least that man is a war hero, so he has some weight on the issue.
Anyway, I think the issue is important and relevant enough to merit discussion on DU, so here it is: what do you think? Agree? Good for him? If Edwards said it it must me good? How does this mesh with previous sponsoring of IWR, theats to Iran and declarations that "the American people can be convinced of the necessity of a new war with Iran?"
Is it OK to discuss candidates own words anymore - even if WaPo glossed over them?
Or copying talking points should be the only Edwards threads allowed?

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Using A Candidates Own Words, Actions, And Votes Is very Unfair

That has been pointed out to me many times on DU.

You're only allowed to write about pretty wishes - otherwise you're Dem-bashing.

[The Count]

4. One's debating skills sharpen when supporting a candidate running against

his own record and sometimes his own statements. One needs to come up with many synonyms for "he apologized" and "that's not what he meant"- but usually "RW talking points"and "you Edwards haters" seem to be the norm.:shrug:

[Catchawave]

2. Re-spinning RW talking points shouldn't be allowed for

ANY candidate. :eyes:

[The Count]

3. What RW talking point would that be? I posted his words and I'm trying to figure

out what he meant. he talked about mandatory service. Had the word "war" in the same sentence - as - at least an equivalence. So, what's he talking about? Draft? national Guard? Edwards-sqeteers? What????
Mind you, the article barely lingers on the meaning of these words - so no one published them with RW spin intentions this time.

[Cameron27]

7. I'm trying to figure it out too.

This was his original statement:

"One of the things we ought to be thinking about is some level of mandatory service to our country, so that everybody in America _ not just the poor kids who get sent to war _ are serving this country," he said."

Which I actually thought meant only poor kids were sent to war!

And then he explained:

"After the event, Edwards said he had not meant to imply that only the poor go to war, only that everyone should serve in some way.

"We have people from all walks of life in America who are serving, including Reservists and National Guard," he said. "What we want to do is to have all Americans to have a chance to serve their country."

Why did he start by talking about poor kids serving in war if he wasn't talking about the military? If he was talking about something else, there's absolutely no comparison between serving your country in war, and "serving" in any other way, and it seems glib to phrase it that way when there is a war going on with over 3,000 troops dead.

I think at best, it's an oddly worded talking point.

[Catchawave]

47. WaPo is one article, you need to do more research on

national service. Nice try using the Rove Playbook for Political Dummies :evilgrin:

[Lobster Martini]

5. Maj. Gen. John Batiste's comments on Democracy Now!

Maj. Gen. John Batiste said something similar on Democracy Now! last night and included the Peace Corps and AmeriCorps when discussing national service. Didn’t agree with everything he said, but he did turn down a promotion to be able to speak his mind and was then fired by CBS for saying this:

“Mr. President, you did not listen. You continue to pursue a failed strategy that is breaking our great Army and Marine Corps. I left the Army in protest in order to speak out. Mr. President, you have placed our nation in peril. Our only hope is that Congress will act now to protect our fighting men and women.”

This is a snippet of the transcript from Democracy Now!:

MAJ. GEN. JOHN BATISTE: I think it’s time that we debate national service. National service can come in many flavors. The Peace Corps -- my daughter served two years in Malawi -- AmeriCorps -- think of the opportunities with Homeland Security for national service and, of course, the military. We need to have that debate, and we need to have it soon.

AMY GOODMAN: So do you think there should be a draft?

MAJ. GEN. JOHN BATISTE: There needs to be some form of national service to get Americans back into the game, their heads into serving their country. We don't have that right now. Part of the problem is the military is under-resourced, and the current recruiting scheme is insufficient. It won't take us to where we need to go. So we need to debate the draft and form it the way it makes sense for us today to complement things like the Peace Corps, AmeriCorps and other opportunities that we should be thinking about to support Homeland Security.

My two-bit opinion is that his premise is wrong—deficiencies in resources and recruiting exist because the military has been used unwisely.

But I’ve digressed. My point was that mandatory service isn’t necessarily military service and Edwards isn’t the only one suggesting that it be debated.

[The Count]

10. All due respect to Baptiste for his courage - I disagree with him too.

As for Edwards suggesting that it be debated - I missed that part. All I saw was a suggestion that it be enacted and great efforts from his followers to stifle any debate on it - by getting my thread locked

[Lobster Martini]

6. Self delete -- accidental duplicate n/t

[Inspired]

8. I replied to your thread yesterday that it was misleading.

I have heard John Edwards speak on dozens of occasions. The only time I have ever heard him speak on youth and service to our country is when he speaks about his 'college for everyone' plans. He would like to have the 1st year paid for those who want to attend college and work around 10 hours or so a week to help pay for it. The work he has spoken of involves service. I don't recall his exact words but it didn't involve mandatory military service. It didn't involve mandatory anything. He just wants to find a way to level the playing field for those who want to go to college.

I know John Edwards well enough to know that he is NOT referring to military service, although he greatly respects those who want to serve in that way. He does not want our youth to go into the military though if they are only doing because it is their only option in life.

I don't know if this is what he was referring to or not. What if Edwards simply means that our youth should be required to complete some form of community service? Would that really be so bad? What it it involves helping at a homeless shelter or planting a garden or heading up a canned food drive? I'm just asking.

The reason your thread was locked wasn't because of your obvious bias against Edwards. It was because you misrepresented the article in the title, and body, of your thread. Yes, you admit to that but you also just can't let it go. It is apparent by your need to stir this up again.

[The Count]

9. Community service? like petty criminals do now? Not so great.

Much as I am a community minded person, like democracy, community is something that comes voluntarily, from the inside - not imposed from outside.
My other problem with it is that we now see how easy is to hijack our government for bad - look at the tug of war over the National Guard during Katrina.
Having millions of young impressionable citizens under the control of someone like BFEE? Not a very good scenario - and I don't trust benevolent leaders taking too much power either.

[Inspired]

11. We need to change the concept of community service then.

Why does community service conjure up images of petty criminals? That is a sad statement, Count. Regardless of how you feel about John Edwards, we really should change the notion that service to our communities is something only petty criminals do.

I don't know about where you live, but I don't see a lot of voluntary community service being done by our youth where I live. To be honest, most of them are at the mall, sitting in front of a TV or computer or text messaging on their cell phone.

I agree that it means more when it is voluntary. I just don't see a lot of it.

[Fermezlabush]

12. "voluntary" vs "mandatory" - it's where the incompatibility starts

A mandatory community is not really a community

[Cameron27]

13. Very good point!

[The Count]

14. been logging volunteering hours in several types of communities/settings

When I said I was community minded I did mean it. I live it, because I so chose it - and others do too. It's the notion of mandating this that makes one think of the criminal system.

[Inspired]

21. Well, there is another way to log hours.

You could join a local One Corps chapter!

http://blog.johnedwards.com/onecorps

This is all volunteer. I won't pretend that we hide our support for John Edwards but many of the initiatives we do on a monthly basis have nothing to do with the campaign. Each chapter plans their own events and action items.

This week I took hundreds of canned goods to the local food pantry. No one there knows that I did this on behalf of John Edwards or his campaign.

Earlier this year my local chapter helped winterize the home of a Hispanic family who needed assistance to reduce their energy costs. This family didn't speak English, probably aren't eligible to vote and also had no idea that the work was being done by supporters of John Edwards.

So...while Edwards mentioned the word 'mandatory' service, let me assure you that he is also trying to put together voluntary community service as well.

[Blackhatjack]

29. The criticism regarding the word 'mandatory' is full of holes...

People who never do any kind of service for their fellow man are not as educated as they would like to think they are.

People who pay someone else to do everything for them would benefit from some minimum amount of community service being required. And just like 'mandatory' courses taught, if they want the degree and the benefits they have to comply with other 'mandatory' requirements --which the granting authority has a right to set.

My son has done hundreds of hours of community service, both mandatory and voluntary. He has worked with kids that never did any community service except the little amount required to get their high school degree. Those students definitely benefitted by knowing that their world is much different than the world of those inhabiting the same city they live in.

Call it what you want, 'mandatory' or 'voluntary' we need students to be engaged in helping to meet the needs of others today if they are going to solve these problems later when we dump governmental power in their laps.

[Cameron27]

36. I can assure you

that while you may have not linked John Edwards to your "initiative" torwards the Hispanic family, most of the One Corp posts I've read did--and did so blatantly:

"Here's what I am doing in the Myrtle Beach area. I have a small business of "Dry Cleaning" carpets. No water is used and it's perfectly safe for children and pets. Since I use industrially grown oranges as the cleaning carrier, you could eat the stuff safely. The point I'm getting at is this: We get as many members as we can from as many Chapters as we can and go to- say Health Care facilities.

I cover the expense myself and actually do all the work myself (but it's important that everyone does some small choir for visibility). Now while I am cleaning carpets, the rest of the group sort of drifts off to be friendly with the residents and staff and engage them in talks about who we are and why we are doing all this for free.

However the thing that will sell them all into coming over to the Edwards voters side is the group picture at the end. We get one person to take a picture of us all standing behind and to the side of the patients and staff, doing our best to match that great smile of John Edwards. Can't be done, but we try."

"Looking forward to seeing what the March topic will be so I can get facility set up (actually getting someone to take up the free offer is the hardest sell of all). It's just hard for people to understand that we simply wish to help them. I guess because they have been so used by uncaring groups in the past.

The last sentence is ironic.

http://blog.johnedwards.com/story/2007/3/6/115847/1841

......

02/08/2007 by tedfun21 in Diaries

"Finally, many groups are doing canned food drives. The best thing we can do for John right now is to organize of course, but also to get free publicity for him. If groups of One Corps clubs got together to raise thousands of cans, there might be a chance for John or Elizabeth to come down for a big donation event to a local charity or food bank. We are planning to do a huge one for Miami-Dade and Broward Counties sometime in March or April."

.......

"Start a team for a local race, the American Cancer Society has races in most areas. Find out about your local blood drive, donate socks to a homeless shelter.

Our team has participated in all of these and more and it is important to note while we are making a difference we are also SPREADING THE WORD about John Edwards. We all wore our campaign t-shirts while we donated blood, we put John Edwards stickers on anything we donate, anyone we talk to while making arrangements we make sure they know the purpose of our group."

......

"Our other thought is that by doing this volunteer work in our community early on, when crunch time comes for us to go door to door and make our phone calls, we can not only tell the people why Sen. Edwards is our candidate of choice because of his plans for this country, but we can itemize our group projects and show them that he has already begun to make this city and country better for all due to his development of One Corps. We are walking the walk."

......

"As a OneCorps captain I can not promise a team member that they will meet John Edwards but a member can know that if they are participating in a OneCorps event, somewhere in the country John Edwards is working on a similar event and together, over time, we can all make a positive change in our country."

I'll make a bet John Edwards is NOT working on a similar event in another part of the country.

......

These are just a handful. Even the benign ones suggest wearing a John Edwards T-shirt while "volunteering."

It will be interesting to see if this surge of community service continues if Edwards is no longer a candidate.

[Blackhatjack]

37. What you fail to understand is Edwards agrees with us, we were doing community service before ...

John Edwards ran for office.

What is interesting is that you would equate an improper motive to people freely giving of their time to make the lives others better. Shame on you!

Those of us who have done community service for years are entitled to have an opinion in regard to who would make the best President --and many of us are pleased that John Edwards agrees with us.

And if Edwards is no longer a candidate, we will continue to do community service same as always --because it is the right thing to do.

[Cameron27]

38. Shame on yourself.

I posted very self-serving quotes by members of One Corp trying to get their guy elected. These are very representative of what's been posted from One Corp members. From earth day, to the war in Iraq; from helping the elderly to Toys for Tots, it's one big promo for John Edwards in addition to whatever community service is provided.

Whether this continues remains to be seen.

[Blackhatjack]

39. Sorry, you don't get to strip community service workers of their right to choose a Candidate ....

If they want to wear Edwards clothing, Edwards signs, and Edwards stickers --that is their right.

Ask the people they help if they mind the people showing up to give freely of their time and resources if it bothers them?

Those of us who do community service are engaged members of our communities, and we do not check our brains at the door. If we believe electing Edwards will make this a better country, it is our right to promote Edwards as our candidate.

It remains to be seen if you will be doing anything positive for your community if your candidate does not win. That is a fallacious argument.

[Cameron27]

40. Do all the community service

you want. I do. On behalf of no one. It's wonderful for both the giver and receiver.

It's certainly anyone's right to frame it anyway they like, but to claim that this isn't the bottom line with many, many, many members of One Corp is a little disingenuous:

"We all wore our campaign t-shirts while we donated blood, we put John Edwards stickers on anything we donate, anyone we talk to while making arrangements we make sure they know the purpose of our group."

I will not allow you or anyone else to insinuate that I don't do anything positive for my community. I just refuse to do it the name of my candidate.

[Blackhatjack]

55. You can do all the community service you want and withhold your candidate preference...

You just cannot prevent the rest of us from making our candidate preference known while we do community service.

Sorry, you don't make the rules.

[Cameron27]

56. I'm not preventing you

from doing a damned thing. I'm not making the rules, I'm voicing my opinion.

[Cameron27]

59. You cannot stop others from

expressing their opinions about your candidate just because they disagree with you. There are several Edward's supporters going from thread to thread bashing Obama and Clinton with posts that contain a dubious connection to the facts. Smearing is what it's called. One just copies and pastes the same tired BS over and over even though he's been called out on it several times.

For you guys to continue to post things like this about other DU'ers is just sad:

"There is a negative hit squad of posters here that twist and turn phrases against Edwards, because they cannot attack his positions."

What phrases have been twisted? What has ever been said about John Edwards that wasn't the truth? Please link to those threads and statements, because I'd like to know what the hell your talking about.

/language

[Inspired]

41. Each chapter decides how to approach their own events.

I can only speak for mine.

I think I said that we don't hide our support for John Edwards. We wear our Edwards gear proudly, if the situation warrants it. Some situations don't warrant it. I see nothing wrong with letting folks know, when appropriate, that John Edwards has inspired us to serve.

I, too, am curious if the service will continue. It might be up to us to continue it. Regardless, there have been good things done through the many One Corps chapters throughout the country. Nothing can take that away.

[Cameron27]

45. I'm not trying to start

an argument with you, so I'll leave this particular conversation with a thank you for any community service that you've provided.

However, associating a political campaign with that voluntary service, such as putting John Edwards stickers on anything donated stinks IMO. It's getting something back isn't it, even if it's just name recognition. The way I was taught to view giving, was to do it with absolutely no strings attached. None. So that's what I'm basing my opinion on.

[Inspired]

53. Funny how you couldn't leave it with a thank you!

Whatever. I'm not asking for any thanks

[Cameron27]

54. Why should I have left it with a thank you?

I honestly wanted to explain what I found so objectionable about combining political strategy with voluntary public service.

If you don't want a thank you, I'll take it back. Go forth and resume peddling "John Edwards for president" with every little thing you do.:-)

[The Count]

46. No, I meant helping people - not spinning BS. You know, holding preemies

cleaning community gardens, helping organize school events - this type of volunteering.
Harrasing people on and off the internet in the name of someone who's running against his record - I leave this honor to you guys.

[rucky]

31. This thread has a notable absence of links

for a discussion about what's "on the record".

[Blackhatjack]

34. Here is a link for you....

http://johnedwards.com/nh/20070521-nh-iraq-plan/index.html

[rucky]

35. edit: Just saw the post below. Thanks! nt

[The Count]

48. I posted one yesterday,but was locked

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/21/AR2007052100866.html?referrer=digg

[Blackhatjack]

15. You admit you don't know what Edwards meant --there is a remedy for that!

You posted: "I don't pretend to know exactly what Edwards meant by that service.
To most it sounds very much like draft. At best, it may have been an absurd attempt to copy Charlie Rangel's stunt."

You tried to establish the parameters of discussion between two false endpoints.

I take you at your word, that you don't know exactly what Edwards meant. The solution to that condition you find yourself in merely requires that you go to the Edwards website --all his proposals, with specifics, are there for the reading. If you choose not to read what Edwards posted to illuminate his meaning, you are doomed to relying upon anti-Edwards posters appearing here to 'help you understand' exactly what Edwards did not mean, because they have an agenda and refuse to acknowledge facts that prove them wrong.

The service that Edwards is talking about goes right along with the John F. Kennedy call for "Americans to ask not what their country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.'

Edwards has proposed that we begin to act like a country with citizens that care about each other and their welfare. It means that this country belongs to all of us, not just to the richest 1% who garner the lion's share of all government benefits.

Edwards started a program to make college possible for every high school graduate, and a prototype of the program is being financed by John and Elizabeth right now in one of the poorest counties in North Carolina. IF a high school graduate is willing to work 10-12 hours a week, his/her first year of college would be paid --making it possible for students to see that they can do the work and succeed in college.

Edwards discussion of 'mandatory' service is part of a discussion that young people need to engage in a year or two of service to others in this country, without regard to wealth. It is a follow up to requirements that many states have already implemented(like N.C.) that so many hours of community service are required in order to graduate from high school. That community service can run the spectrum from volunteering to deliver meals, work at a food bank, help repair homes, provide elder care, to enlisting in the military.

Doing this kind of work gives young people a different perspective about their role in their government and what role government should play in the lives of all its citizens.

He is not advocating a draft for military service in any way, shape or form. Anti-Edwards posters would love to paint his idea as calling for a draft, but the facts are out there --it is not.

If you are serious about the questions you raised, and not just posting another 'concern thread about Edwards' I will expect to see you follow up your OP with what you have learned on your own at Edwards' website rather than rely on negative comments posted here.

To help you get started, here is a link

http://johnedwards.com/nh/20070521-nh-iraq-plan/index.html

"At a later campaign appearance in Claremont, Edwards repeated his frequent call for the next president to promote patriotism beyond war.

<snip>

Edwards also called Monday for spreading the burden of serving the country by mandating national service.

"One of the things we ought to be thinking about is some level of mandatory service to our country, so that everybody in America - not just the poor kids who get sent to war - are serving this country," he said.

Good Luck!

[Cameron27]

16. JFK never suggested a mandatory service.

There's a big difference between volunteering for the Peace Corp for instance, and being forced to perform a service for your country.

[The Count]

18. Thanks, I missed that. Inspiring vs enslaving.....

[The Count]

17. Thanks. Now that I know - it stinks! Even beyond war - forced labor????

I don't want my kids enrolled by Edwards or some other politician to do whatever they think it's "patriotic" at the time. Under Bush it could be spying on your neighbor.
Under Edwards it could be making up pretty speeches that go against one's actions.
It all sounds very Big Brotherish to me. I guess you don't have kids ....
Patriotism doesn't need promoting. Especially, not by forced labor.

[Blackhatjack]

25. So how is your research going? Or did you already have your mind made up on innuendo?

It is clear you were not serious about your 'concern' over Edwards' statement.

Therefore your posting of the OP is disingenuous.

[The Count]

50. No, my mind is now made up on the new info you provided: bad bad idea!

The concept that "war fosters patriotism" = stinky.
The idea that "we need to promote patriotism beyons wars" - vicious.
The idea that mandatory work will promote patriotism - Bush caliber stupid.
Also, it would be better if he didn't use "war" when talking about "mandatory" - you can't blame people in this country for being a bit sensitive to the subject.

[Clark2008]

42. I never know what he means.

He always goes back and changes it...

[The Count]

51. That's true too.

[Sapphire Blue]

19. Elizabeth Edwards: "John is not in favor of a military draft. Never has been."

NOT a draft

John is not in favor of a military draft. Never has been. When he was in the Senate and in the 2004 campaign, he proposed a national community service program for high school students, modeled on the program at the public school our older children attended. The habit of public service is one that we want to encourage. Whether that means that high school program or a national public service program for all of us -- even those out of high school -- we know we need to think about it, to get all Americans committed in a real and meaningful way in making America as strong and as compassionate as we can. He saw on the Gulf Coast what committed Americans can accomplish, and he dreams big about how much more we could do.

Join me at http://blog.johnedwards.com

by elizabethedwards on Tue May 22, 2007 at 06:08:17 PM PDT

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/5/22/20657/9795/175#c175

The Count, your posts are so transparent, you could change your name to the Invisible Man! As I've said before, these tactics of yours are really getting old. Do you really think this will encourage voters to support your candidate? Not likely. Not likely at all.

[The Count]

24. Tactics? Anti-war candidate thinks war promotes patriotism and wants forced labor

to promote patriotism beyond wars - and I am transparent?
First of all, I make no secret about it - I am scared shitless about this candidate, more than any other (except for GOP-ers).
A lot of people call him progressive yet he promoted and obviously values wars (he thinks"they promote patriotism), plus is mum about the stealing of my vote in 2004.
I am not pretending to do anything else but bringing up the truth - as I find it about this colossal fraud. So, when you say "I am transparent" what secret conspiracy did you exactly expose here?:shrug:

[Sapphire Blue]

30. Yesterday you misrepresented what he said; today you're in Edwards head, telling us how "he thinks"?

Do you consider posting a thread w/a deliberately misleading subject line as you did yesterday "bringing up the truth"? (And the thread was locked why?) If so, the bush WH might have a job for you in its PR dept.

Yes, your tactics are very transparent; no "secret conspiracy" at all.

[The Count]

43. yesterday I took a title from my source - obviously not THAT farfetched

as Elisabeth was dispatched to clarify.
Nobody bothered to clarify anything on THAT thread - you just got it locked. Which is quite telling.

[Sapphire Blue]

49. That title was NOWHERE in the source that you posted. Might you be referring to another "source"?

Some unknown "source" that would deliberately mislead its readers? If so, why didn't you post a link to that "source"?

Several people commented that your subject line on THAT thread was misleading, and that you were offering your own interpretation of the article.

FYI - I'm not a mod; I can't lock anything here.

[The Count]

28. Good to have a translator handy....seems I wasn't the only one needing explanations

military or not - still stinks!

[Blackhatjack]

20. If you don't make a minimum amount of community service mandatory, many won't do any....

There is a positive benefit to the person PERFORMING the community service.

However, if it there is no minimum amount required, some students will never do any.

There was an uproar in N.C. when counties like ours began requiring so many hours of community service to graduate high school. However, after a number of years, there is almost universal acknowledgement that community service has been a positive for the STUDENTS!

A well-educated student is one who has a relationship with his community.

We need students to be educated on the effects of poverty, hunger, homelessness, uninsured healthcare, etc. You can teach ABOUT IT in a classroom all you want, but if you experience it first hand and see that nameless/faceless statistics have names and faces and children --we will all be better off as these students enter the population.

I have seen mandatory community service work up close and personal. It is not a huge burden because there are so many places for the students to serve.

It has nothing to do with criminal sentencing and punishment.

[Cameron27]

22. It's not that long ago

that we had a draft in this country. It's not that long ago that college students were forced to lose their lives in a war before they were old enough to vote.

Mandating a service of any kind is bad IMO, no matter how worthy the cause. How do you know what the burden will be for anyone forced to do something against their will?

[Blackhatjack]

23. There are 'mandatory' classes you have to pass to graduate high school, are you against those?

You make an apples v. oranges kind of argument.

'Mandatory' can mean anything that is required to obtain a benefit or degree.

What if the local school board made it 'mandatory' that students extend their classroom hours in order to receive their high school diploma? Would you be against it because it is 'mandatory'? Would you consider it 'enslavement' by the school board?

Before you take such a hard position, keep in mind it has already happened. In NC we extended the number of classroom hours needed each year to qualify for promotion to the next grade --and it was mandatory! Is this not 'forcing' someone to do something against their will?

If performing community service bothers you, would you be just fine with giving students the same additional number of hours to complete JUST IN A CLASSROOM instead of performing tasks that 'qualify as community service'??

The Government 'mandates' services of all kinds of its citizens before they are given certain privileges. It is not just for students.

[The Count]

26. Are kids producing unpaid value during those? (one of my objections)

"
The Government 'mandates' services of all kinds of its citizens before they are given certain privileges."

PRIVILEDGES????

SILLY ME! I thought I had rights - and they were not given to me by the government...I guess i still have the pre-Bush constitution!

[Blackhatjack]

32. Rights and Privileges are very different which I suspect you already know...

A license to drive is a 'privilege.'
A high school graduation diploma is a 'privilege.'
A license to practice law or medicine is a 'privilege.'
Any license that requires probationary status before full licensure is a 'privilege.'

You have the 'right' not to seek the license or benefits, but you do not have the right to determine the requirements that you must meet in order to obtain that license or benefit.

There is a 'cost' to obtaining every 'privilege' and sometimes it is the 'unpaid value' that is an indirect cost.

BTW it is high time some people understand that not everything of value can be measured in terms of 'paid value.'

[Catchawave]

52. Are you serious ? Kids are gaining character building

and experiences. My kids went to private high schools which included "mandatory community service" as part of the graduation requirement. Looks good on the college applications and job resumes too.

My kids volunteered with Special Olympics.

[Blackhatjack]

58. I am so glad you mentioned Special Olympics .... we had those in Raleigh!

No one, and I mean no one, is ever the same when they step out help with something like this.

We held the Special Olympics in Raleigh a couple of years back, and it was a huge success. Many kids volunteered that would not have if there were no mandatory community service requirements in our high schools. Those high school kids will never be the same.

Thank you for mentioning this!

[The Count]

27. You'd agree with ANYTHING Edwards sez, wouldn't ya?

:wtf:

[Blackhatjack]

33. I think you have it backwards --Edwards agrees with my opinions...

I was doing community service related projects before Edwards even thought of entering politics.

You fail to understand that Edwards is proposing what those of us already know, that helping others is required for a democracy to survive.

Republicans distill everything down to dollars, and that is where their loyalty lies. Teach your child that is the paramount concern they should pursue and you have failed your child.

Ultra rich kids living in gated communities and attending exclusive private schools can do well in the business world, but they are not well developed if they do not experience the challenges facing our nation firsthand.

But hey, they do get paid every last cent for any kind of 'labor' they do. In their understanding of the world, they win.

[The Count]

44. So, you want mandatory community service, a war with Iran and keep mum on 2004?

Just curious, did you also think up to November 2005 that the war in Iraq was a great thing? I am just trying to figure out who inspired whom and to what extent.

[Blackhatjack]

57. You obviously have no serious desire to educate yourself... goodbye to you. n/t