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hellhathnofury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:17 PM
Original message
Is this 1972?
We seem to be talking about Vietnam here more than Iraq. Kerry's medals, Bush AWOL.

Anyone else notice this?

Is Vietnam the issue of the day suddenly?

Is this a move of expediency so people won't hold Kerry accountable for Iraq?
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pezcore64 Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah really
Edited on Fri Feb-13-04 01:22 PM by pezcore64
last time I checked the american people didnt give a crap whether or not their president had military experience or not. i guess it part of the whole post 9-11 deal.

"We do not need to divide America over who served and how." -John Kerry 1992

"What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be refighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a Presidential primary." -John Kerry 1992

and its been pointed out about kerrys votes in congress and his vote for the war in iraq, but no-one seems to care. its either kerry had an affair or hes the greatest man alive.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. the difference
John Kerry went to Vietnam whether he wanted to or not

Bill Clinton didn't want to go to Vietnam and didn't

George Bush BELIEVED IN the Vietnam War and managed to avoid fighting in it

I see GW Bush as the hypocrite
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pezcore64 Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. well
i see them both as hypocrits and neither is better than the other except for the (D) beside kerrys name.
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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. would you care to elaborate?
or are you specifically a "one-issue" Iraq War voter?
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pezcore64 Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. yeah
<start sarcasm>
im just a one issue iraq war voter.

i dont care about the partiot act or NCLB.
<end sarcasm>

But yeah, his biggest hypocricy is the iraq war vote. not to mention the quotes i gave before not bringing vietnam or serving into a race. While i think bush should be called out for being awol, ive never said that people shouldnt be like kerry did.

*shrugs*

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StopTheMorans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I was referring to this statement you made
"i see them both as hypocrits and neither is better than the other except for the (D) beside kerrys name" do you really believe this, or were you just being trite? b/c there are obvious differences, and if you really want me to list them, I'll do it, but I think you're more than aware of them and just choose to ignore them.
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pezcore64 Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. they are both hypocrits
Well
I had a bigger post but somehow i managed to mess that all up and lost the text...so ill try again but without as many of words.

I didnt mean to imply they were identical. tho one could argue that case going by the last few years i suppose. I just dont want to pick a lesser evil of the two. the fact remains, i still think both are evil.

I know there are obvious differences between the two of them and you can feel free to list them if you honestly feel the need to. I promise ill read 'em. Infact, please do tell what kerry has done in the 19 years of his congressional service to benefit the american people. Maybe im so caught up in his votes for the war, NCLB(which punishes schools who do well and rewards those who dont, imo), and the patriot act. I do like the fact that Kerry voted NO on school vouchers, but other than that? what has he done during this administration which shows hes 100% better than shrub?

Shrub is a fool and a puppet, whats kerrys excuse?
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hellhathnofury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Or Medicare or overtime,
it's about duty and firmness.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. well, is wrong...Kerry may not be a poster child for the left
far from it

But uh...no, even I can't equate Bush and Kerry...that's just ludicrous
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hellhathnofury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Ok, agreed Bush is a hypocrite.
Would you rather have the media covering Bush lies about Vietnam or Iraq? Right now, Vietnam is getting a lot of play.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I think you're right
It's too early for this headache.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. I'd like to see them cover both
but the AWOL thing is actually MORE of an attacking point, b/c it calls Bush's moral fiber into question...and THATS what you need to attack him with
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. Here is 1972 including Watergate and McGovern and Fonda
Edited on Fri Feb-13-04 02:01 PM by KoKo01
1972

January 25, 1972 - President Nixon announces a proposed eight point peace plan for Vietnam and also reveals that Kissinger has been secretly negotiating with the North Vietnamese. However, Hanoi rejects Nixon's peace overture.

February 21-28 - President Nixon visits China and meets with Mao Zedong and Prime Minister Zhou Enlai to forge new diplomatic relations with the Communist nation. Nixon's visit causes great concern in Hanoi that their wartime ally China might be inclined to agree to an unfavorable settlement of the war to improve Chinese relations with the U.S.

March 10, 1972 - The U.S. 101st Airborne Division is withdrawn from Vietnam.

March 23, 1972 - The U.S. stages a boycott of the Paris peace talks as President Nixon accuses Hanoi of refusing to "negotiate seriously."

March-September - The Eastertide Offensive occurs as 200,000 North Vietnamese soldiers under the command of General Vo Nguyen Giap wage an all-out attempt to conquer South Vietnam. The offensive is a tremendous gamble by Giap and is undertaken as a result of U.S. troop withdrawal, the strength of the anti-war movement in America likely preventing a U.S. retaliatory response, and the poor performance of South Vietnam's Army during Operation Lam Son 719 in 1971.

Giap's immediate strategy involves the capture of Quang Tri in the northern part of South Vietnam, Kontum in the mid section, and An Loc in the south.

North Vietnam's Communist leaders also hope a successful offensive will harm Richard Nixon politically during this presidential election year in America, much as President Lyndon Johnson had suffered as a result of the 1968 Tet Offensive. The Communists believe Nixon's removal would disrupt American aid to South Vietnam.

March 30, 1972 - NVA Eastertide attack on Quang Tri begins.

April 2, 1972 - In response to the Eastertide Offensive, President Nixon authorizes the U.S. 7th Fleet to target NVA troops massed around the Demilitarized Zone with air strikes and naval gunfire.

April 4, 1972 - In a further response to Eastertide, President Nixon authorizes a massive bombing campaign targeting all NVA troops invading South Vietnam along with B-52 air strikes against North Vietnam. "The bastards have never been bombed like they're going to bombed this time," Nixon privately declares.

April 10, 1972 - Heavy B-52 bombardments ranging 145 miles into North Vietnam begin.

April 12, 1972 - NVA Eastertide attack on Kontum begins in central South Vietnam. If the attack succeeds, South Vietnam will effectively be cut in two.

April 15, 1972 - Hanoi and Haiphong harbor are bombed by the U.S.

April 15-20 - Protests against the bombings erupt in America.

April 19, 1972 - NVA Eastertide attack on An Loc begins.

April 27, 1972 - Paris peace talks resume.

April 30, 1972 - U.S. troop levels drop to 69,000.

May 1, 1972 - South Vietnamese abandon Quang Tri City to the NVA.

May 4, 1972 - The U.S. and South Vietnam suspend participation in the Paris peace talks indefinitely. 125 additional U.S. warplanes are ordered to Vietnam.

May 8, 1972 - In response to the ongoing NVA Eastertide Offensive, President Nixon announces Operation Linebacker I, the mining of North Vietnam's harbors along with intensified bombing of roads, bridges, and oil facilities. The announcement brings international condemnation of the U.S. and ignites more anti-war protests in America.

During an air strike conducted by South Vietnamese pilots, Napalm bombs are accidentally dropped on South Vietnamese civilians, including children. Filmed footage and a still photo of a badly burned nude girl fleeing the destruction of her hamlet becomes yet another enduring image of the war.

May 9, 1972 - Operation Linebacker I commences with U.S. jets laying mines in Haiphong harbor.

May 1, 1972 - NVA capture Quang Tri City.

May 15, 1972 - The headquarters for the U.S. Army in Vietnam is decommissioned.

May 17, 1972 - According to U.S. reports, Operation Linebacker I is damaging North Vietnam's ability to supply NVA troops engaged in the Eastertide Offensive.

May 22-30 - President Nixon visits the Soviet Union and meets with Leonid Brezhnev to forge new diplomatic relations with the Communist nation. Nixon's visit causes great concern in Hanoi that their Soviet ally might be inclined to agree to an unfavorable settlement of the war to improve Soviet relations with the U.S.

May 30, 1972 - NVA attack on Kontum is thwarted by South Vietnamese troops, aided by massive U.S. air strikes.

June 1, 1972 - Hanoi admits Operation Linebacker I is causing severe disruptions.

June 9, 1972 - Senior U.S. military advisor John Paul Vann is killed in a helicopter crash near Pleiku. He had been assisting South Vietnamese troops in the defense of Kontum.

June 17, 1972 - Five burglars are arrested inside the Watergate building in Washington while attempting to plant hidden microphones in the Democratic National Committee offices. Subsequent investigations will reveal they have ties to the Nixon White House.

June 28, 1972 - South Vietnamese troops begin a counter-offensive to retake Quang Tri Province, aided by U.S. Navy gunfire and B-52 bombardments.

June 30, 1972 - General Frederick C. Weyand replaces Gen. Abrams as MACV commander in Vietnam.

July 11, 1972 - NVA attack on An Loc is thwarted by South Vietnamese troops aided by B-52 air strikes.

July 13, 1972 - Paris peace talks resume.

July 14, 1972 - The Democrats choose Senator George McGovern of South Dakota as their presidential nominee. McGovern, an outspoken critic of the war, advocates "immediate and complete withdrawal."

July 18, 1972 - During a visit to Hanoi, actress Jane Fonda broadcasts anti-war messages via Hanoi Radio.

July 19, 1972 - South Vietnamese troops begin a major counter-offensive against NVA in Binh Dinh Province.

August 1, 1972 - Henry Kissinger meets again with Le Duc Tho in Paris

August 23, 1972 - The last U.S. combat troops depart Vietnam.

September 16, 1972 - Quang Tri City is recaptured by South Vietnamese troops.

September 29, 1972 - Heavy U.S. air raids against airfields in North Vietnam destroy 10 percent of their air force.

October 8, 1972 - The long-standing diplomatic stalemate between Henry Kissinger and Le Duc Tho finally ends as both sides agree to major concessions. The U.S. will allow North Vietnamese troops already in South Vietnam to remain there, while North Vietnam drops its demand for the removal of South Vietnam's President Thieu and the dissolution of his government.

Although Kissinger's staff members privately express concerns over allowing NVA troops to remain in the South, Kissinger rebuffs them, saying, "I want to end this war before the election."

October 22, 1972 - In Saigon, Kissinger visits President Thieu to discuss the peace proposal.

Meetings between Kissinger and Thieu go badly as an emotional Thieu adamantly opposes allowing North Vietnamese troops to remain indefinitely in South Vietnam. An angry Kissinger reports Thieu's reaction to President Nixon, who then threatens Thieu with a total cut-off of all American aid. But Thieu does not back down. Kissinger then returns to Washington.

October 22, 1972 - Operation Linebacker I ends. U.S. warplanes flew 40,000 sorties and dropped over 125,000 tons of bombs during the bombing campaign which effectively disrupted North Vietnam's Eastertide Offensive.

During the failed offensive, the North suffered an estimated 100,000 military casualties and lost half its tanks and artillery. Leader of the offensive, legendary General Vo Nguyen Giap, the victor at Dien Bien Phu, was then quietly ousted in favor of his deputy Gen. Van Tien Dung. 40,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died stopping the offensive, in the heaviest fighting of the entire war.

October 24, 1972 - President Thieu publicly denounces Kissinger's peace proposal.

October 26, 1972 - Radio Hanoi reveals terms of the peace proposal and accuses the U.S. of attempting to sabotage the settlement. At the White House, now a week before the presidential election, Henry Kissinger holds a press briefing and declares "We believe that peace is at hand. We believe that an agreement is in sight."

November 7, 1972 - Richard M. Nixon wins the presidential election in the biggest landslide to date in U.S. history.

November 14, 1972 - President Nixon sends a letter to President Thieu secretly pledging "to take swift and severe retaliatory action" if North Vietnam violates the proposed peace treaty.

November 30, 1972 - American troop withdrawal from Vietnam is completed, although there are still 16,000 Army advisors and administrators remaining to assist South Vietnam's military forces.

December 13, 1972 - In Paris, peace negotiations between Kissinger and Le Duc Tho collapse after Kissinger presents a list of 69 changes demanded by President Thieu.

President Nixon now issues an ultimatum to North Vietnam that serious negotiations must resume within 72 hours. Hanoi does not respond. As a result, Nixon orders Operation Linebacker II, eleven days and nights of maximum force bombing against military targets in Hanoi by B-52 bombers.

December 18, 1972 - Operation Linebacker II begins. The so called 'Christmas bombings' are widely denounced by American politicians, the media, and various world leaders including the Pope. North Vietnamese filmed footage of civilian casualties further fuels the outrage. In addition, a few downed B-52 pilots make public statements in North Vietnam against the bombing.

December 26, 1972 - North Vietnam agrees to resume peace negotiations within five days of the end of bombing.

December 29, 1972 - Operation Linebacker II ends what had been the most intensive bombing campaign of the entire war with over 100,000 bombs dropped on Hanoi and Haiphong. Fifteen of the 121 B-52s participating were shot down by the North Vietnamese who fired 1200 SAMs. There were 1318 civilian deaths from the bombing, according to Hanoi.

More.......
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1969.html

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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Yes, but see, those quotes were BEFORE Kerry figured out it would help him
Edited on Fri Feb-13-04 02:07 PM by killbotfactory
politically.

Kerry is a man of principle. He believes he should be president, and will do, say, or mortgage anything to make that true. For that, we should admire him.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kerry will be held accountable
but only to the extent that he would ever have been held accountable to begin with
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nope
Kerry's war record vs Bush's is a legitimate argument and it is in response to Bush's attempt to portray himself as a "happy warrior".

Kerry has been a warrior, and wounded, and proven himself personally courageous. On the upside, as this has developed during the campaign it touched into a lot of emotion among vets, many of whom still believe they were poorly treated by our nation for decades. Thus came Kerry's "band of brothers" that appear with him on most stops on his campaign.

There is still the anti-VietNam War issues that Kerry will have to deal with, and that might still prove hyper-damaging in the GE, but for now the pro-veteran issues have kept that from surfacing too virulently at present.

VietNam is a deep wound, and in many people it has scabbed over, not healed. This campaign is scratching at it and I suspect a lot of folks aren't going to be pleased when it is exposed to the light of day.

Just my opinion, of course. I didn't serve in the army (had a 1-Y just like Dean) but lost a lot of friends in that war, including a bunch who came home alive but were never the same after what they saw and did far, far away.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. yeah and remember the slogan in '72
Why change Dicks in the middle of a screw
Vote Nixon in 72

An guess what, people DID!
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. If only. No one would be able to find Bush. n/t
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. Democrats need to be able to project an image of being tough on defense
and homeland security. Having a decorated vet at the top of the ticket helps defuse that issue. It also should help us with vets, who are being royally screwed by the Bush administration.

Someone like Kerry or Clark could speak much more credibly about supporting U.S. troops by not sending them into danger for fraudulent and political reasons. It also provides a quick and persuasive answer to any charges of unpatriotism.
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hellhathnofury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. McGovern. Dole.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. But why is it such a big issue in the media RIGHT NOW?
Could it be that it HELPS media conglomerate friend Kerry?
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. But Kerry DID send troops into danger--for what
Viet Nam is ALL Kerry has got--and even that is lame.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. that seems like the toughest nut to crack
It seems like the American people can believe ANYTHING except that Bush is a liar and a fraud.

Are you sure THAT's the right tack?
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. How does running a guy who caved in to Bush
Who is ruining our national security with pointless wars and beligerent foreign policy, make democrats look tough on defense?

I guess this is all about image over substance.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. What do you guys think is going to happen?
Do you think that if you post enough attacks on Kerry in DU that somehow, magically, Dean will start winning primaries?

Or is it just about revenge now? Screw the party and our chances of winning in November.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. It's Kerry greatest advantage over Bush.
Dean's biggest advantages over Bush: Iraq foresight, 11 balanced budgets, fiscal responsibility, job creation and healthcare successes.

Kerry's biggest advantage over Bush: Better Vietnam service over 30 years ago.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. God, you can cut the desperation with a knife.
Edited on Fri Feb-13-04 01:55 PM by library_max
Dean's "advantages" got him less than twenty percent in eleven out of fourteen states (eleven out of twelve outside New England).

You guys need to ask yourselves whether the person you're really helping here is Dean or Bush.
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Westegg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. I think Kerry's people recognized, a bit late...
...that playing up his military service might be a boon to his faltering campaign, and they commenced to do just that. And it seemed to work. The TV commercial which showed a fellow vet talking about how Kerry saved his life (!) was seen by many pundits as giving his numbers a big boost. Is that a genuine reason for Kerry's revitalization? I don't know. But let's accept this, at least: that stuff plays real well in the Heartland of America.

Let's also remember that this is the first presidential campaign to pit two Vietnam-era candidates againt each other. (Yes, I realize Kerry's not yet the Dem. nom., but let's stipulate that for the sake of this particular line of thought). This contrasts with Clinton againt Dole in '96 and Clinton againt Bush Sr. in '92---there, you had WWII vets up againt someone the G.O.P was giddily pleased-as-punch to label a "draft dodger." My sense is that now, the Dem powers-that-be are only too happy to have a tables-are-turned situation, in which they can finally pit a bona-fide Vietnam War medal-winner and combat veteran against a man who was never "in country." So I'm not the least bit surprised that it's being played up as much as it is. Wes Clark's comments today, upon endorsing Kerry, included the statement (and I'm paraphrasing here): "He and I are both combat veterans and we know what it's like..." Etc. Do I want to see this Vietnam stuff dragged out for months, if Kerry is the nominee? No. But the fact that this is an issue that Republicans won't be able to utilize against Kerry is more than okay with me. So that's my thinking.
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Westegg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. If I may correct myself...
I wrote: "Let's also remember that this is the first presidential campaign to pit two Vietnam-era candidates againt each other."

I forgot about Al Gore. Gee, I wonder how that happened...?
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tobius Donating Member (947 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. kerry has talked about his service in vietnam to the point
that it's a running joke in the press.
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Mile Hi Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
29. Spin baby spin
Don't look at Kerry's voting record look at his metals.

Being a Viet Nam "hero" makes hime "electible"

Don't mid that he flip-flops
Don't mind that he voted for IWR
Don't mind that he voted to increase wire-tapping
Don't mind that he voted to allow more Government funding of religious organizations (tearing down the walls of seperation of church and state)

Just pay attention to his medals and how electible he is.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. Underlying msg: Iraq = Vietnam, Bush let others die for him then, and now.

It's a winning issue for us in the GE.

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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
32. The parallels are dumbfounding
And it is a great idea to look at how Vietnam played out because that might tell us what the U.S. should/should not and/or will/will not do about the Iraq War.

I say the discussion is quite warranted.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
34. Let us all exorcise the ghosts of Vietnam in election 2004
I think this is one massive guilty conscience purge sweeping across America. Okay, we screwed over the vets of Vietnam when they returned, they STILL don't have proper healthcare, but so what? Let's just elect somebody who has become their icon and thus we shall make reparations for the unholiness of an unjust war.

Who among us will not be surprised to see one of the presidential candidates appear at The Wall for a campaign rally.
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