to the "If Kerry is the nominee, I'm gone" people: do you believe what

[StopTheMorans]

you say or are you truly so idealistic that you would rather talk about unrealisitic change and not have any chance to effect it rather than embracing the method of change that we currently have and working with it (i.e. supporting whomever the Dems. nominate even if it is Kerry)?

If you say that Kerry is little or no better than Bush and you can't have the blood of over 500 soldiers and countless Iraqi civilians on your hands, then I still say you're off-base, and here's why:

If you don't vote for the Dem. nominee, Bush's environmental policies (specifically "Clear Skies") will cause more deaths of asthma and related illnesses than will ever die in Shrub's folly of a war in Iraq. ANY Dem. would institute MUCH better standards.

If you don't vote for the Dem. nominee, you ensure that our public schools will continue to be underfunded, that children who need help will continue NOT to get it, and that the only people who will be able to receive a truly "good" education will be those who can afford to pay for it once privatization becomes more of a reality; thereby furthering the status quo and making the rich even richer while giving the poor virtually no shot at a good education to better their situation. ANY Dem. would at the very least fully fund NCLB, and at best overhaul the system.

You still won't vote for the Dem. nominee? How about Social Security and Medicare reform or guaranteed solvency under Shrub? Forget about it: to keep the systems solvent without repealing parts of his tax cuts (no way in hell would it happen if he got a 2nd term), we would (figures come from a report made to Paul O'Neill before the 2nd cut was passed) have to "raise the income tax by 69%, or cut Social Security and Medicare by 55%". ANY of the Dems. would work for a better and more progressive tax system and shift more of the burden off the backs of the lower and middle classes to those who can truly afford it and are not paying their share now (i.e. off-shore corporations and the uber-wealthy).

This is not even mentioning the progress that ANY Dem. nominee would make over Shrub in human rights, trade policies, stopping faith-based science and funding, etc... If you really believe that not voting for Kerry is going to change something, you're right, and it will: The things that we believe in (i.e. a shot at a decent retirement via Social Security, Healthcare for most, if not all, of our citizens, a good education for all of our children, sound environmental policy, equal rights regardless of ethnicity/social orientation/gender/religious preference) will be so far beyond repair that 4 years from now that no amount of work anyone who is elected president in '08 does will ever come close to righting them in our lifetime or possibly our children's (I'm 24). So have fun with your "protest votes", I'd rather effect real change and do it now.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[StopTheMorans]

2. not really referencing just the "NBD" folks, rather

any progressive in general who will not acknowledge that any Dem. nominee will be a VAST (i.e. not "little or no difference from *) improvement and that MUCH change can and will be made under a Dem. presidency.

[quinnox]

3. Agree

These folks also don't matter in terms of numbers. It would be like catering to a tiny percentage, doesn't make sense.

[Caution]

4. Tell that to Al Gore (n/t)

[nightperson]

11. Yep.

No loss.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DuctapeFatwa]

6. Kerry believes that he is the best man to implement current policies

and I think he would agree with your characterization of any actual change as unrealistic, although you can be sure that there would be some very visible cosmetic changes, and with his language skills, you can be sure that he would be able to phrase things in a way that would make them sound much more palatable, especially to people with full bellies, in comfortable homes, with electric lights, and no babies with 3rd degree burns and shrapnel wounds and no painkillers screaming in the next room.

[StopTheMorans]

7. you missed the point completely

and your last sentence proves it. Look at Kerry's environmental record and tell me he wouldn't repeal "Clear Skies". You can't argue that that wouldn't save countless lives.

BTW, I'm not even in Kerry's camp, I'm an Edwards fan.

[DuctapeFatwa]

15. I said nothing about his environmental record

While that is an important issue, I am not sure that it is the most pressing one for people who are currently enjoying the benefits of US foreign policy at the moment.

[StopTheMorans]

16. I agree

however, the whole point of my long-winded diatribe was that we can't "have it all" within the confines of our political system. Hence, we will DEFINITELY have to accede to some things that are rotten (like a War vote) but this does not mean that MANY other things will be INFINITELY better under the Dem. nominee if elected president.

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. I wish that the crisis had not gone so far past the point where you would

be right.

However, it has. Decades of people doing what you suggest, and then doing it a little bit more, and a little bit more, and a lot more and a moderate amount, and a generous amount and a little bit more add up, just like purchases on your VISA card, until the day comes where you cannot even pay the finance charges, and not only must you stop charging ANYTHING else on your VISA card, you now need to either file bankruptcy or go to a credit counselor and see if they will make a deal with VISA for you to let you take second job and pay them almost all your income for the rest of your life.

Then you get a call from the balloon-payment furniture rental place whose deal looked so good - just $10 a month, they said, for SUCH a long time before the balance comes due. Ditto the stereo system place, you get the picture.

It is not your fault, but there is little likelihood that it matters who you vote for, even if every voter were to vote for some magical being who would act in direct conflict with business interests, and disarm the US and send all the war criminals to the Hague, AND bring in Cubans to set up a health care system, that person got exactly as many votes as the Diebold man says they got.

A political solution is no longer a realistic possibility. If it will make you feel better, vote, and if voting will make you feel good, voting your conscience will make you feel better.

[info being]

26. Good point

Kerry would actually set the Progressive cause back further. Why? Because now Bush is so ineffective that people are starting to wake up. Kerry will continue on with the same agenda but manage to fool people more effectively. True Progressives will be ignored by Democrats with him in power. I guess we'll have to partner with the Republicans. By the way, I saw a speech by a TX Senator (I think) named Ron Paul. I agreed with his every word. I guess I'm somewhere between Libertarian and Green...but definately not in the middle. The middle supports Fascism.

[Ninga]

8. Listen sweetie, I will vote for Kerry

but do not, under any circumstances fool yourself into thinking that he will be an force for change.

Ain't gonna happen.

[StopTheMorans]

10. again "force for change" is a loaded term

he will change many policies (again, I'm not a Kerry supporter) and they will not be simply cosmetic. See my original post. if you're talking "a force for change" as in "he will implement fully every policy that Dennis Kucinich supports", then I agree with you that he is not a "force for change" by your definition, and I also would say that that "force for change" will never occur within the confines of the U.S. political system, now or ever, so why not change what we can while we can?

[aldian159]

9. "Clear Skies"

and asthma was the first big reason I joined Kerry's ship.

I have asthma, and after spending numerous nights awake and unable to breathe waiting for the inhaler to kick in, I decided that NOBODY should have to live with it if it can be avoided.

[nancyharris]

12. Clear Skies

is a piece of legislation (S. 485/H.R. 999) not a presidential directive. The only way we are going to defeat clear skies is by taking back the Senate or the House of Representatives. The importance of this is often overlooked. All the more reason that we need to win those southern Senate seats and make sure that the Democratic presidential candidate has some coattails in southern states.

[StopTheMorans]

14. thanks for clarifying:)

n/t

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

17. I hope a lot of the 'sour grapes' voters change their tune

Ashcroft is subpoenaing medical records of women who have had certain abortion procedures, namely the kind the right labeled "partial-borth abortions". If that doesn't give you some indication of the depth of evil in this administration, nothing will. Our reproductive rights will continue to erode, our civil rights will continue to erode under the Patriot Act.

I voted for Nader in 2000 because I thought there was no difference between the big-money parties. After 3 years in Bush's America, I'll hold my nose and vote for the nominee. I'm not a Kerry supporter either-I'll probably vote Kucinich in the primary-but let's face reality: four more years of Bush will destroy our rights, our environment, and any semblance of democracy.

[drfemoe]

Um

and you can thank Senator Edwards for not showing up to vote against either *partial-birth* abortion vote. Gov Dean said legislators should not be practicing medicine. He was RIGHT as usual.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. The lesser of two evils strategy. Neo-con or Neo-lib.

The republican bogey man will get you if you don't fall in line with the "not as bad" philosophy of the DLC.

Was Reagan worse than LBJ? If you lived in America, LBJ was infinitely better than Reagan. If you lived in Vietnam, Laos, or Cambodia when LBJ was president...

Kerry promises more jobs, a cleaner environment, safer social security, etc. Paid for with what? Does he have the courage to demand higher taxes? Cut the military budget? Cut corporate welfare?
Sign the Kyoto treaty? Would congress back him if he did?

All of the problems you cite, every one, is the result of corporate power in this country and the need to protect it with military force against the "terrorists" of the rest of the world who have grown sick of being the providers of our luxuries.

The "real change" you speak of, isn't "change" at all. It's merely the slowing down of the suicidal course this country has been on since the 1950's when it convinced itself that unbridled capitalism at the expense of the rest of the world would provide us with unlimited prosperity. Instead, it has provided us with hollow riches that fatten the bank accounts of the elite, and a world that hates us.

So, the question isn't "is Kerry better than Bush?", but "is Kerry not as bad as Bush?"

Not much.

[CWebster]

19. Wonder what happens when enough Democrats

Turn against the Democrats?

[info being]

24. Or more to the point...it doesn't matter

The real problems are not in the Executive Branch. The real problems result from people much higher up than that. The root problems are systemic. Kerry is very much a cog in that system. Kucinich is not. But in this country politics is only an extention of private, entrenched power. The power that controls are banking system, our media, our sources of livelihood...and who selects our Presidents.

[sleipnir]

21. I don't know about the rest, but I'm not GONE if Kerry's nominated, but...

I'm not going to "fight" for him this summer and next fall. I just can't get behind a man I don't believe in and don't trust. I agree Kerry would be much better than Bush, but I'm not going to be complicit with Kerry's recent record and deeds. He voted for IWR, and that alone (not to mention the dozen or so of his other objectionable votes) will cause me not to actively support Kerry. By active support, I mean wearing campaign buttons, putting up bumper stickers, giving donations, etc. Come Nov. 2, yes I'll put a check by Kerry's name, but that's as much as I'll do.

I just can't actively support the man, he's gone wrong one too many times for me to be able to forgive him this election.

[info being]

25. Exactly. I'll probably vote for him...but nothing more.

[info being]

22. I hate that I have to support Kerry

I also hate that I have to pay taxes to an entity that is destroying this planet.

You're right though. Whatever.

[Capn Sunshine]

23. real change would be nice

and voting for Kerry is a guarantee that the established powers in Washington can duck that bullet for at least four more years.

THAT is what you need to see.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

27. You are a smart 24 y.o.

I wish we were all so smart.

[stickdog]

28. Does it really matter? (nt)

[drfemoe]

29. This might be believable if

Kerry OR Edwards had voted for Democratic ideals as Senators the past three years. I don't have any faith in what you and other ABBers claim to believe.

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