It's beginning to look like Dean is the only other REAL candidate left

[edzontar]

In the race....

Is it me, or it it true?


Edwards' "positive" campaign is beginiing to look like more and more like a VP run now that he has lost those southern primaries.

Clark has dropped out and seems to be rushing, indecorously, to an opportunistic (?--also running for VP?) endorsement of Kerry.

Kucinich is out there but even his press secretary is posting pro-Kerry threads and arguments on DU.

Sharpton seems more and more a vanity campoaign thatn he already was.

And it is only Dean who keeps rasing issues regarding Kerry's policy positions on Iraq and corporate lobbyism, and only Dean (along with his supporters) who is still attracting the ire and umbrage of the Media commentators and of so many of my colleagues here at DU.

So it seems to me if you have any lingering issues or problems regarding Kerry, Dean is the only one who is even trying to stake out a position in opposition to his candidacy, and raising arguments against his consecration as the Dem standard bearer.

Comments?

[ShimokitaJer]

1. Just as he always has been

If the Gephardt/Kerry deal in the Iowa caucuses and Kucinich pushing his supporters towards Edwards there didn't convince you, then the new fawning over Kerry certainly should.

Then again, there's always Sharpton.

[edzontar]

4. Indeed, Sharpton is at least SPEAKING OUT and has not

Crumbled into indifferent ascqueisence like Edwards, Clark, and (possibly--I'm still confused) Kucinich have.

[BL_Zebub]

16. Sharpton's not an option. He's working for the other team

And no, not even covertly through the DLC. He's being managed by known GOP operatives who staged the Miami courthouse riots. If Al had a chance in Hell of winning, I'd be demanding he drop out of the campaign

[polpilot]

37. Only top tier anti-Iraqi War, anti-establishment candidate all along.

Dean '04...Anti-Iraqi War, Anti-DLC, Pro-Take Back our county!!

[SangamonTaylor]

2. It's beginning to look like Dean will finish 3rd in Wisconsin

behind Kerry and Edwards.

Dean has peaked, had his time in the limelight and is now yesterday's story.

If anyone has a chance to upend the Kerry MO it's Edwards. Unless Edwards does extremely well in WI and gets some decent coverage, then I think that the movement to 'line up behind Kerry' is hard to beat.

A win (or close race) in WI could lead to an interesting Super Tuesday. After that, Edwards could move to Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Florida the next week.

[edzontar]

8. But Edwards has never really engaged Kerry in debate over issues....

I am waiting to see if he ever will.....

[polpilot]

40. It's forbidden in The Senator Club rules.

Dean '04...The Scream Party

[RetroLounge]

17. Dean has peaked?

Again?

What is this, the third or fourth time people on DU say he's peaked.

Dean keeps peaking. Funny meme....

[Zomby Woof]

144. he only peaked once

"Peaked" is past tense. He did so only once, and that was well before Iowa. ;-)

[WiseMen]

3. Bush/Dean Has Been The Corp Media Dream. They are still fighting for it.

[edzontar]

7. This argument is SO three months ago.

The media have anointed Kerry.

As of last night, they were still sitting on the intern story, and talking 1. About Bush and AWOl and 2. Why Dean should give up.

It seems to me that the Media Whores are torn between a Kerry or Bush victory---whoever wins, they know that THEIR empires will be safe and sound, and they like the Kerry war-hero story since it makes them feel all "macho" and male-bonding-ish (I am thinking of Matthews, Fineman, Russert, et al) and they feel betrayed by theior previous male-uniform fetish object, Aviator-Suit Bush.

[Rich Hunt]

42. yep, great posts!

As an observer of the right-wing press, it seems to me they started 'annointing' Kerry about three years ago.

[physaf]

59. I keep wondering about that, too

what gives?

[edzontar]

67. Maybe someone will stop by and explain it.

I've had some informative e-mails and PMs, to the effect that the DK is much more concerned about targeting Dean than Kerry, which seems very odd for a "real" campaign...

[BL_Zebub]

So let 'em dream

It's a reverse psychology "briar patch" scenario. Rove makes you think he wants Dean, DNC/DLC panic and try to destroy Dean, push Kerry as the annointed one, then the 'Pukes destroy Kerry after Dean, the REAL candidate with a shot of beating Bush has been all but eliminated - at least in the eyes, and lies, of the media.

Even without the currently developing scandal, or any others that BUSHCO might have waiting in the wings, Kerry remains the weakest candidate against Bush. There's nothing he can debate against Bush.

Edwards has a good message of the "two Americas", but nothing to back it up. And he also voted for most of the Bush agenda.

Kucinich? Great platform which I happen to agree with a lot of, but absolutely no chance of election in the current climate.

Dean? Has the message, the experience, and has obviously pissed off both the 'Pukes and the DLC. This is the man we NEED in the White House now if you want any hope of saving America as we know it.

[gWbush is Mabus]

5. i would personally prefer a nominee in a GE that

that let out a weird scream than one that has some sexual scandal baggage.

[bluestateguy]

6. reply

Comments?

You're kidding right?

[edzontar]

9. Um, no? I actually think I made some good points and wondered

If anyone else had noticed this--especially as regarding Edwards and Kucinich.

[Straight Shooter]

10. There will never be a trace of scandal to stain Dean's reputation

Face it, America has swung severely to the right. Just think of the "Silver Ring Thing." Young people by the thousands pledging to "save themselves" for marriage.

People will always wonder if it's true or not. And no one has rushed to his defense to claim that kerry "just isn't like that." As rush limbaugh said, someone is out to get kerry. And it's up to kerry, not us, to find out who that person is.

[Comadreja]

81. Doesn't matter that Dean's clean

The establishment attack media could sling toxic slime at Jesus himself and make it stick. In fact, their ancient counterparts did just that, and the crowds turned on JC overnight. We're dealing with a very old phenomenon, here.

[janx]

89. I disagree. It matters very much in terms of "electability,"

that buzz word that the media are enamoured with currently. If we nominate some bozo with a lot of shady activity in his past, we're practically giving the election to the right wing.

Taking down candidates based on their version of morality is what they do BEST.

[seventhson]

11. Dean/Edwards will be the ticket . Dennis Kucinich will be in the cabinet

any of them can beat Bush

[edzontar]

13. Then why are DK's press secretary and many of his supporters here...

Posting in support of Kerry and against Dean?

Has DK dropped out and endorsed Kerry?

I missed that......

I don't get it.

[bobthedrummer]

66. Dennis is staying the course, as he said he would.

That allows the People to cast their vote for the kind of future they would like to realize.

My wife, our daughter and myself are all voting for DK on Tuesday.

He is not going to pullout of this at all.

[Cheswick2.0]

12. did you notice all the new Dean avatars defending Kerry?

I am finding it amusing as hell. I guess the DK and Edwards avatars aren't as effective in this particular case?

[edzontar]

15. Haven't noticed--I don't use a candidate avatar myself....

But stealth tactics of this sort would be nothing new....

I wonder how quick the Clark avatars will switch to Kerry after today?

The General has given his orders, after all.....

[Cheswick2.0]

20. Yes and they have "answered the call"

will the military imagery never end? OY!

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polpilot]

43. The pro-war DLC has put the pro-war demo team together!!!! Unity!!!!

Rove is on the floor laughing: "They're running a pro-war demo candidate!!!!!

Dean '04...The Anti-Establishment Patriot

[On the Road]

78. Well, I've Made Some Posts Defending Kerry

or at least you could read them that way. Just trying to be fair and avoid unecessary division. We need to call the shots as we see them, not just rush to defense of our candidate.

I don't Kerry is all that. I'm not sure he has the best chance of beating Bush. But some of the attacks here have been uncalled for.

[indigo32]

91. agreed

eom

[edzontar]

117. I have posted in his defense on the Hanoi Jane smear

And do not like the Drudge business either.

I;lladmit I am enjoying seeing other canddiates' supporters get up in a lether though---reminds me of the time.....

[eileen_d]

14. Dean is real; all other candidates are holograms.

Dean 2004!

[Cheswick2.0]

19. fabulous, you'll be joining us then!

:7

[polpilot]

47. All the other candidates are waiting for their DLC 'position papers' so

they'll know what they think.

Dean '04...The ONLY Hope

[Cheswick2.0]

18. ah, another point. Did you see Clark on MSRNC saying....

"There is unprecedented unity amoung democrats". WTF? He is repeating Terry McCauliff's talking points! I was disgusted because it is so clearly not true.

[edzontar]

21. I for one am not "unified," and Clark knows better than to claim this

What a disappointment he has turned out to be.

I wonder what they offered him to sell the nation out?

[Carolina]

53. I am not unified either

and I am really bitterly disappointed that my guy would sidle up to Kerry so soon.

Call me jaded.

[OKNancy]

31. Really? He meant unified to get rid of Bush

I think that is the case. No matter the outcome, I would hope that Bush is the number one target.

[edzontar]

33. The race is not over yet, last I checked....

I am not ready to unify...

[Carolina]

55. true we're unified AGAINST

Bush but we were better with a chorus of candidates against him. Kerry's lone voice, especially with his droning oratorical style, is not the strongest.

[edzontar]

63. Right. I too would like some more debate.

nt

[janx]

93. I saw Judy Woodruff say something like that on CNN.

Almost puked.

[mzmolly]

114. That unity must have happened after he dropped out.

Someones hoping for the VP slot I'd say...

[Mr. McD]

22. If Dean loses we all lose.

It will be business as usual in Washington. Enough said.

[MuseRider]

23. Who?

n/t

[Zech Marquis]

25. when you're grasping for straws

you'll do anything. And the recent behavior by both Dean and some (not all) of his most devoted supporters here have crossed the line of decency. I dare say with the Kerry "sexgate" (which just makes these people look really awfl) they run the risk of slipping into the fanatical description. And in effect,they''re helping the BFEE.
:X

Arguing someoe's stand on an issue is one thing, personal evil, and mean spirited attacks are another. And I hereby disavow anyone at DU who sinks to that trashy level.

[edzontar]

27. When did I say anyhting about the intern?

On some otherr threads, I have stated my opinion that if true, it is better that ithis story come out now as opposed to in October.

That is it.

This thread is about whether or not there is anyone else actually running against Kerry at this point.

On the issues.

[pezcore64]

29. lol

yeah, all i can say is thank god this is coming out now about kerry.

tho i dunno by the way the media is keeping it down...they prolly wanna wait longer so they can destroy us.
i swear, if this thing stays quiet and then explodes in sept/oct i am going to be SO PISSED OFF at all the kerry supporters on here ;)

i honestly cant stand bush another 4 years guys
and unfortunately the american people seem to like the bond of marriage an aweful lot so when they see someone cheat on their wife/husband it hits them to the core of distrust. if theyd go around someone they supposedly loved, how are they gonna be with the american public?
i mite not agree with it, but thats how it works. thats how it destroyed my states governor and almost destroyed clinton.


at any rate
i think dean supporters have tried to address the issues with kerry people. such as all his votes that went with bush in congress, but they dont seem to care much about the fact.

this whole thing has turned out really sad and im starting to wish i hadnt been driven to get interested in all this in the first place.

GO DEAN!!!

[Mairead]

26. It's you, Edzontar. Trust me, it's you.

Dean's supporters are the most loyal I could possibly imagine. Everything that happens is seen as being about him. There's little or no middle ground, and no situation is without a Dean-referenced meaning. Either it's something that confirms his worth, or that unfairly attacks him. Clark is going to endorse Kerry rather than Dean, so he's self-evidently being opportunistic. Kucinich's press secretary posts requests that DUers calm down and give Kerry a break til more facts surface, so the only possible interpretation is that Kucinich isn't a real candidate!! Sharpton hasn't condemned Kerry yet, or demanded that he wear the Scarlet Letter, so obviously Sharpton is only a vanity candidate! Only Dean is condemning Kerry, so only Dean is a real candidate!

Whatever else one might say about it, that's real loyalty!

[edzontar]

28. Well maybe you are right...but the question remains THIS

Is any other candidate actually competing against Kerry at this point?

The only I one I see actually debating him on issues is Dean.

And maybe Sharpton.

I haven't heard anyhting lately re-Kerry and why we should not vote for him from the others.

As for Clark, he claims to have run because he was against the Iraq war, then he drops out and IMMEDIATELY endorses one of the most pro-war candidates left in the reace, who juts happens to be the anointed front-runner.

On that one, you may call it what you like.

I call it sell-out.

[seaglass]

38. Dean's unfavorable in WI is 43% - he is not competing.

by kos
Fri Feb 13th, 2004 at 03:34:47 GMT

According to ARG, Clark's supporters seem to have split almost down the middle between Kerry and Edwards. Even had they all gone to Edwards, Kerry would still maintain a solid lead. MoE 4%. 2/12. (2/6 results in parenthesis)

snip...

"But perhaps the most startling part of this poll is the fact that people really, really hate Dean.
Howard Dean
Favorable: 19 (20)
Unfavorable: 43 (37)
Edwards
Favorable: 29 (21)
Unfavorable: 16 (15)

Kerry
Favorable: 65 (53)
Unfavorable: 19 (21)

There's no way any candidate with that level of unfavorables can win anything. There's no possible ad campaign, at this point, that can rescue Dean. The best he can hope to do is take down his nemesis Kerry a few notches, though his ludicrous "Kerry is a Republican" charges simply seem to be backfiring. "

http://www.dailykos.com/

[edzontar]

39. I will admit Dean is not winning, but that was not the question...

Is he Kerry's only remaining OPPONENT is the question....

[seaglass]

50. Well, if you're not counting whether he has a chance to win

or not, then Kerry has 4 opponents.

The one with the best chance against Kerry is not Dean.

And by the way it's not just the winning - it's the high unfavorables, what can Dean do that is within character to make people like/vote for him?

[edzontar]

65. I mean he is not winning NOW...

I am not even optimistic--but Kerry worries me, is that allowed?

[seaglass]

94. Of course it is. That isn't what you asked though. n/t

[Mairead]

49. "The only I one I see actually debating him on issues is Dean"

If you're not seeing Kucinich taking him on, then does that suggest anything to you? Given that DK's entire campaign has been about the issues, I mean.

[Professor Hoodoo]

52. DK is irrelevant at this stage..

He barely has any delegates and he's dropping out on 3/2 -- I posted on the other thread if you don't believe me and I'm willnig to take all bets if necessary -- all bets will be headed towards Dean for America.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

thanks for playing

:eyes:

TWL

[HFishbine]

35. Kucinich's press secretary

endorsed Kerry. I have yet to see it withdrawn.

[edzontar]

36. This whole Kerry-Kucinch thing is why I will not support him

I mean, I want to vote for a candidate who is at least running an ACTUAL campaign, not as a stalking horse for some "front runner".....

[MuseRider]

41. I spend way too much time here

but I have no idea what you are talking about. What Kerry Kucinich thing? I know a lot of the DK supporters have Kerry as their number two and a lot do not but I honestly do not know what you are talking about. Do you have a certain link I can go to? I have been looking but do not see what you are talking about. I'll keep looking.

[edzontar]

48. Will Pitt, Kucinich's press secretary, seems to support Kerry

And so do many of DK's supporters here, who also seem to really have it IN for Dean.

Plus DK has not exactly been promeinent in his critique of either Kerry or Edwards as this thing has narrowed.

And so, my conception of the Kerry-DK "thing."

[MuseRider]

54. So it is just your idea.

I will let everyone else speak for themselves. For me, I do not care for Dean, many reasons I have explained before. He is the only one I would absolutely have trouble voting for. Why would DK be critical of anyone? He is running his own campaign. I have heard him differentiate himself from all of them. The only critique I have heard him give is when someone has been dishonest or left some very important facts out.

Will can speak for himself but not too long ago this was addressed. He said he had respect for Kerry. Isn't it OK to respect other candidates? Personally I do not feel I have to disrespect them just because I don't agree with them.

[edzontar]

58. It is my OBSERVATION, which your post tends to support

At least empircally.

So--does the WAR matter or not?

[MuseRider]

70. How did you draw that conclusion?

Is it just reaction because I do not like Dean? Respect means support? Not saying terrible things about your opponant is support? I don't get how you came to my supporting Kerry out of this.

[edzontar]

75. I just read the the posts, the news, watch the debates, talk with friends

The usual.

This Kerry-Kucinch connection is not exactly breaking news behind the scenes.

It has been noted, believe me, by others.

If I'm wrong,. I would be more than happy to vote DK when and if Dean drops out.

[MuseRider]

83. From someone in

the DK corner I would just say that I know nothing about it. I have friends here on DU whom I respect who are Kerry supporters. I respect Kerry on a number if issues but I am not giving up support for Dennis Kucinich because of that. I have been known to cross over to offer support to all of the candidates, including Dean and I think many of us had. It isn't all or nothing in this game yet. It is not, after all, about any one of them yet. With all respect I offer this observation of my own. Not everything going on has to do with Dean or to take Dean out.

[edzontar]

85. I have no reason to doubt you. I want to like DK

But he needs to speak out re-Kerry's coronation and SOON.

[MuseRider]

90. I think that by

simply hanging in there and discussing his issues and policies he is doing just that without looking like a sore loser. People, no matter how influenced by the media, are voting for Kerry. Do I like it? No. Do I feel like it is a coronation? Yes, but that is me the voter and it is my responsiblity to speak out about that. DK needs to do just what he is doing, trying to win and get issues out there.

[Snivi Yllom]

106. This is not getting the issues out

Perhaps he should have ridden on stage on a motorcycle.
Or am I missing the issues part of this:

http://tinyurl.com/fo2y

Kucinich:

From ABC News' Kucinich campaign reporter Melinda Arons: New York, Feb. 13 -- In what can only be described as perhaps the most bizarre episode yet in the 2004 presidential campaign (which is saying a lot when the candidate in question has been known to participate in collective meditation rituals at fundraisers), Rep. Kucinich stopped by the Tonight Show Thursday night and participated in a spoof of "The Dating Game."

The image of a presidential candidate standing next to Jay Leno on a retro psychadelic game show set was surreal enough, but the contestants' fame and racy answers made it downright Fellini-esque. The participants included Oscar-nominated actress Jennifer Tilly, the lithe blonde Republican/radio megastar consultant Kim Serafin, and actress Cybil Shepherd.

Some highlights (or, one could argue, lowlights):

* Jennifer Tilly asking in her best Betty Boop voice "How's your hanging chad?"
* Cybil Shepherd screaming "I'm ready for a wardrobe malfunction!" after which she lifted up her dress to reveal satin pink underwear.
* Shepherd towering over Kucinich and trying to make out with him after not being picked, then reprising the skrit-lifting to make sure Kucinich had the chance to see it.
* Serafin, in what's safe to call a politically incorrect answer, claiming that if she were First Lady and the Chinese president came to the White House, she assumes he'd be bringing take-out so would order the number 4.

Kucinich ended up choosing Bachelorette number 1, Jennifer Tilly, and seemed genuinely shocked and delighted a the contestants' true identities. One can only assume he would have preferred to stay and have a real interview with Jay before heading out, but instead the vegan and his date were sent to dinner on the show at the raw food eatery Raw.

[janx]

92. You know, I think it's what's known now as "the enemy of my

enemy is my friend" expression.

It does become problematic, though, when it gets in the way of some higher concerns--the current Iraq war being one of them.

[MuseRider]

101. That is so

extremely insulting that I can barely respond to you. Do you guys ever stop? Do you ever stop and think that this is not all about your Dean? Give me a big fucking break. This is about our country and I would wager that MOST of us on this board are capable of directing our own thoughts and decisions and need not be accused of playing politics just because we disagree with you. For gods sakes, it must be so tough trying to pin down your candidate every day that you have little time to give thought to respect for others. Higher concerns? You gotta be kidding me. I am officially out of this thread.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

109. wait for me!

hold the door

TWL

[WilliamPitt]

118. Will Pitt, Kucinich's press secretary, supports Kucinich

and respects Kerry...and furthermore, is intent upon a campaign based on issues, not innuendo and sour grapes. Take that for what it is worth.

[Tinoire]

110. Do not blame Kucinich for what a neophyte Press Secretary is posting at DU

Will Pitt is a supporter of both Kerry and Kucinich. Kerry was his first choice but he always liked Kucinich and wrote some good articles about him. Will is not a raving Leftist like many of us but he's a good writer and I believe he sincerely supports Kucinich.

In the posts you are referring to, he was speaking as a private citizen/private DU poster- not in an official capacity and I hope he understands that with his new job come certain responsabilities and a certain behavior. In NO way has Kucinich or the Kucinich campaign said anything enthusiastic about Kerry. And I will make sure that there is NO misunderstanding there because I'm a die-hard Kucinich supporter who does not like this deplorable confusion.

[Mairead]

44. Really? When? Got a cite?

[edzontar]

60. Look up his posts and threads today or in the archives...

Or PM him about it.

He is an eloquent guy and could explain all this much better than I could.

[Mairead]

79. No, I asked for a cite. Make a claim about a fact, offer a cite.

[HFishbine]

84. What does "my candidate" mean?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=860090#860463

[edzontar]

88. This is getting a little off-topic.

I don't dislike DK, but his more vocal supporters and spokesmen here seem to like Kerry and not my man,


Meanwhile, since you like citations, why not find me a recent criticism of Kerry from DK or someone in his campaign?

I admit that he might not be getting the coverage he deserves, so i might have missed it..

[Mairead]

100. "why not find me a recent criticism of Kerry from DK "

Why don't you find me a quote that has him saying 'Senator Kerry's plan is the best on this issue. I support Sen. Kerry's plan'. Or even a tepid '...is okay...I don't oppose'.

DK criticises Kerry's positions every time he says anything. Can't you see that?

[Mairead]

97. Oh, you meant Dennis's FUTURE press secretary supported Kerry

Why didn't you say so?

[HFishbine]

98. Is that what I meant?

Who is Dennis's future press secretary?

[Mairead]

103. In December, which is when those posts were written,

his FUTURE press secretary --NOT his then-current one-- was Will Pitt. Do you have a problem with that?

[HFishbine]

107. You said

Kucinich's future press secretary supported John Kerry. I can't refute that since I don't know who his future press secretary will be. I do know that his press secretary supported Kerry and I was simply pointing out that I haven't seen a retraction of that support. Have you?

[Mairead]

112. Someone's confused here, or feigning it. And it's not I.

My point is that your statement 'Kucinich's press secretary endorsed Kerry' makes it sound as though the press secretary, in-role, endorsed Kerry. Which, of course, is either an error or a lie depending on your intent.

Had you chosen to state that 'Will Pitt, before he became DK's press secretary, endorsed Kerry' I would have had no problem with it. But you didn't. Because of the rules for interpreting English, your phrasing implied something that is false-to-fact. Were I to say 'the governor of Vermont wet himself in public several times', I would be doing the same thing you did.

More clear now?

[HFishbine]

113. Sure. Very clear

So, did he ever withdraw his support of Kerry?

[Mairead]

122. I have no idea. Why should I care?

[HFishbine]

133. I see

So when it comes to the semantics of Kucninch's press secretary supporting Kerry, it's an issue worthy of several posts, but when it comes to the knowing the facts of whether or not he coninues to support Kerry, that doesn't matter. Got it.

[Mairead]

136. Yes, I'm sure you do see.

Pity you won't simply admit it.

[boxster]

142. No, see post #118.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=326517&mesg_id=328507&page=

[DU GrovelBot]

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[library_max]

32. Dean hasn't won a state yet.

He polled in single digits in five of the fourteen states decided so far. He only got above twenty percent in New Hampshire, Maine (both in New England) and Washington. The only other state in which he came in better than third was Michigan (17%).

[edzontar]

34. But he has more delegates than Clark, Edwards, Sharpton, Kucinich

And is the ONLY one engaging in debate with Kerry, so far as I can see.

[Toucano]

61. Is that with super delegates?

They aren't committed, and I don't think we can count them.

[library_max]

102. And at best, the number of superdelegates is finite.

It won't grow with additional primaries and caucuses.

[West Coast Democrat]

45. It's not that I don't like Dean; It's just that he won't beat Bush

And it's pretty sad to see the Dean supporters getting so excited over the attacking of the frontrunner, when they believed it to be so unfair when Dean was the frontrunner.

[edzontar]

56. Why should we cry any tears for these people

Who mercilessly attacked us, to the detriment of our campaign, not to mention or country....?

But that is not the issue.

The issue is, WHO is actually competing with Kerry?

[West Coast Democrat]

68. I think the attacking was a two-way street

but you know if Dean were the frontrunner, he'd be dealing with the same Drudge sludge. It only helps Karl Rove to push this rumor along.

[edzontar]

77. Obviously. This thread is not about Drudge or the intern.

But about whether there is any other candidate ACTIVELY debating Kerry in the reace.

[West Coast Democrat]

80. It's been ALL about the Drudge rumor since yesterday...........

for many Dean supporters. Too bad.

[edzontar]

87. Whatever--has nothing to do with me or this thread

Except by virtue of timing....

[fishnfla]

71. Right now?

about 55% of DU, Drudge and Rove.

He will outlast them all.

[PurityOfEssence]

46. this one goes to eleven

America hates anger. Kerry is not a Republican. All the rest of us are not part of the "undemocratic wing of the Democratic Party". He isn't the only one who talks about race. He didn't invent virtue. Everybody else didn't steal his ideas; Edwards was talking about economic fairness as a major plank BEFORE DEAN WAS.

The character issues alone give the voters a pretty bad taste in their mouths now, and the idiotic herd mentality drives the last few nails in the coffin.

I cannot see how any rational argument for people coming around on the subject can be made; the only ones I can see are based on belief.

Edwards won South Carolina by 15 1/2 points. He lost Oklahoma by less than a half a percentage point. He missed third in New Hampshire by less than a half a percentage point. He lost second in Delaware by 26 votes.

With all of the Clark juggernaut, he could only come fairly close in Tennessee, and wasn't anywhere near Edwards in Virginia.

Dean has absolutely no chance.

Thanks to Clark's somewhat successful targeting of Edwards from the beginning--a legitimate and sensible strategy--and his tenacity after Oklahoma, Edwards has only a very slim chance.

None of the rest of them has any chance.

If it's a two person race, it's Kerry and Edwards now.

[bicentennial_baby]

51. Naw, that's DK

[bowens43]

57. It's you.

Kerry will be the nominee.

[edzontar]

62. So you don't WANT anyone to run against Kerry...that is fine

But again. my question is not IF, but WHO is presently running against him....

[PROGRESSIVE1]

64. John Kerry is a REAL Candidate.

.

[edzontar]

76. I meant, of course, OTHER than Kerry

nt.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

69. It's just you..

This is a trend I have seen on DU for a while.

What is being described is exactly what Kucinich represents, but it is projected onto Dean.

"So it seems to me if you have any lingering issues or problems regarding Kerry, Dean is the only one who is even trying to stake out a position in opposition to his candidacy, and raising arguments against his consecration as the Dem standard bearer."

Kucinich has stronger positions on almost every issue than Dean. Despite Dean's RHETORIC he has very similar policies with Kerry on many important issues.

NAFTA, military budget, occupation of Iraq, profit in healthcare, etc. Where does Dean represent an opposition?


TWL

[RetroLounge]

72. True statement.

and thank you...

Although I like Edwards more than Kerry, Dean is the better of the three.

[Anwen]

73. It's not just you, edzontar

Dean is and always has been the only good alternative.

[janx]

74. It has been that way from the beginning, really.

If we want Chimpy out, the best thing to do is to vote for Dean.

[Bread and Circus]

82. Dean is a fine firebrand, this is just not his time.

He is a good man, but he is not a good Presidential Candidate.

[On the Road]

86. We Need to Vote for Who We Think Would Make the Best President

rather than for the "reification" (Will Pitt's term) of electability.

The headlines on Dean for the last couple of weeks have been mostly attacks on Kerry. I can't evaluate them. I don't know how beholden Kerry is to special interests.

But I don't think Dean has made the best political decision for getting back in the race. Attack headlines crowd out policy headlines. What might have been a inspiring sound bite is ignored in favor of a red-meat quotation.

Every time Dean goes on the attack against a fellow Democrat, he damages himself, even if the attack is justified. And the issue that he's latched on to is not even one which is going to swing the undecideds.

Dean's campaign is in a desperate situation. He needs a miracle, and he might even get one. But he's got to be prepared to run with the ball if he gets a second chance.

[jpgray]

95. Goofiest. Thread. Ever

If the only way one can build Dean up is by shitting on everyone else, then his candidacy has truly failed. :(

[Rich Hunt]

96. you call it 'shitting on everyone else'

I call it raising some valid concerns.

Do we tolerate free discourse or not??

It's best to stick to the facts instead of mischaracterizing people's concerns.

[jpgray]

111. Kucinich the Kerry shill? Sharpton the "vanity" candidate? (nt)

[no name no slogan]

99. Agreed

The desperation around the Dean supporters here in the last 24 hours has really peaked. Now, all of a sudden, every other candidates' supporters are somehow part of a vast, EEEVIL DLC "conspiracy" against Howard Dean. It's really quite spectacular, how his campaign has fallen, and his supporters have taken on the "seige mentality".

So what if Dean is the only one attacking Kerry? Could it be that the other campaigns know that "going negative" usually backfires? Look at Dean's negatives in Wisconsin for evidence.

Some here are even calling DK a DLC/Kerry "stalking horse" whose sole purpose is to attack Dean. Other than stating differences in positions, WHERE has DK attacked Dean?

And seeing that Dean and Kerry are clearly cut from the same cloth on the issues, how is it that Dean is The Only Acceptable Nominee$reg;? Sounds more like a cult than a campaign, IMHO.

It really is sad to see how low some of these supporters have really sunk in the last few days. Even if I didn't agree with Dean or his supporters, I at least had some respect for their dedication to their cause. Now that things are going badly, it seems they're ready to lash out at ANYTHING as the cause of their decline, while never looking in their own mirrors.

Truly sad, especially for what was originally supposed to be an "issues-based" campaign.

[Rich Hunt]

108. here you go...

From my e-mail :

"Dear Supporter,

Iowa was a success when you consider that we forced Howard Dean into 3rd place and caused a media uproar.

[edzontar]

121. OOPS!!!! seems like Dk has Dean as a major target

Why target Dean when Kerry is the front-runner and SUPPORTED THE WAR?

[charlie]

124. You're kidding...

A sentence fragment. No sourcing, no URL, no headers, no nothing... and you're buying it as stone proof?

No wonder Nigerian email scams still work after all these years...

[Rich Hunt]

125. it's not on the web

...it came from Illinois for Kucinich.

[charlie]

127. Then cough up what you've got

Let's have the full text, a contact address, the email headers. Then maybe we can judge it's authenticity.

[charlie]

130. I got your mail

Thank you. It does appear to be authentic. I must apologize for my harsh tone. I had joined the Illinois for Kucinich group and did not see anything matching your sentence. However, I've found that the group's chairman, Geri Solomon (the letter author), does indeed have a hardon for Dean:

http://www.why-war.com/pipermail/discussion_why-war.com/2003-June/000006.html

Again, I apologize.

[Rich Hunt]

131. no problem

I can understand your reservations.

Look, I respect Kucinich - I gave the guy money. I'm sure the comment is just this guy's opinion, but it's unprofessional and foments distrust.

[charlie]

132. "unprofessional and foments distrust"

Agreed.

[edzontar]

135. This seems to reflect a broader anti-Dean attitude in the DK camp...

That has been evident on these boards for months.

It seems to be more personal than political, though....At least that is the only way I can understand them being so hostile to Howard and his suporters while embracing the pro-IWR candidates, Kerry and Edwards.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

138. If I were a one-issue voter, I'd support Dean

but I'm not.

Other than the fact that he says he would have voted against the IWR (although unlike Kucinich, he seems not to have attended any antiwar demonstrations), I find Dean's domestic platform to be timid, corporate-influenced, and less leftist than either Kerry or Edwards.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

134. After reading this thread, I can't disagree with a thing you say, NNNS

It is tough to be a supporter of a supposed frontrunner who has not lived up to the early hype (I've been there many times, believe me), but I've never see supporters of a flagging candidate get so snarky toward the supporters of other candidates and so desperate to believe the worst about other candidates.

[retyred]

104. If only he could win something

I might agree, but for now the voters don't see it that way.

As they say, It's all about ELECTABILITY at this point!



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[SonofMass]

105. Yep!

.

[WilliamPitt]

115. Dennis Kucinich isn't real? He's a myth?

I'm shocked.

As for defending Kerry, my candidate did just that by totally slapping down this crap story out in California. This we call integrity.

[library_max]

116. Like I was just saying to RedQueen,

props to you and your candidate. He's the classiest, anyway, of the candidates still in the running.

[VelmaD]

123. Yup, didn't you know...

you're wandering around in a drug and alcohol-induced hallucination. ;-)

Or not.

:-)

[edzontar]

128. I appreciate DK's brave stand on IWR and the rest, but am

Confused by the anti-Dean and pro-Kerry profile of his campaign, statements, and some supporters.

I was also taken aback by his alliance with the pro-war Edwards campaogn.


Kerry supported the IWR, and I think that should matter at some point, unless this is all strategy and tactics.

[VelmaD]

139. Simply put...

the fact the Dean was against the Iraq War does not make him either a liberal or a progressive. Believe it or not there are other issues besides IWR.

[yellowcanine]

119. What makes a real candidate?

Those that have come in 2nd or 3rd but haven't actually won any primaries yet?

[edzontar]

120. Real in the sense of engaging Kerry critically is what I obviously meant

nt

[yellowcanine]

126. Ok fair enough but is Dean doing that? I don't think so.

But I would say that Edwards is certainly running a strong issues based campaign. The fact that he chooses to talk about issues more than personalities does not mean he is just running a VP campaign. He is helping to shape the debate. I started out as a Dean supporter but I think he is a shadow of his former self as a candidate. He isn't focusing on issues anymore. It appears to me that rather than "engaging" Kerry he is spending more time bashing Kerry. Equating Kerry with Bush is just not a credible strategy.

[stickdog]

129. It's always been the DLC five vs. Dean.

ABC. 123.

[West Coast Democrat]

137. Until Dean drops out an endorses Kerry!!

That is sure to be a fine day around here!

[funky_bug]

140. Relying on your past graciousness

I can understand your disappointment, as I believe you are a passionate, passionate Dean supporter because he speaks to the very heart of your convictions and beliefs. I admire you for that, and I will never EVER begrudge you the right to speak your mind, and state your opinions. I put all of my heart and passion into Clark's campaign. The night it ended was horrific, and I do thank you again for your kind words of compassion and support in the wake of our disappointment. In the five months that I supported Wesley Clark, I learned a lot about him. I traveled to see him more than once, and when I listened to him, I found him to be intelligent, compassionate, and genuine.

What I know of Wesley Clark did not go away because he endorsed John Kerry. Do I wish he'd endorsed another? I can't honestly answer that question. Would it have been easier for me if he'd gone with Dean or Kucinich. In a word, yes. But he didn't, and because I don't have the luxury of sitting down with him and asking him why, I have to go on blind faith that he did, as always before, what he thought was right.

I could spin a thousand scenarios as to why he endorsed Kerry, and I could most certainly include a VP position in there. But for me, disappointed that my dreams of President Clark have been dashed, I will unashamedly admit that if that's his motivation, then I'm okay with that. After all, we called Wes to take the White House. How could I possibly be against him now, for still trying to answer that call?

Do I like Kerry more? I don't think so. But I do fear him less because I believe in Wes Clark, and if he's on board, then he's going to have an effect on the way the ship is steered.

With great respect, as always,
R~

[MurikanDemocrat]

141. Kerry has this locked up. Edwards is still in the race.

Dean blew his chance.

[funky_bug]

143. For Shame!

Making a statement like that is exactly the sort of childish behavior that drives undecideds away from your candidate.

As a Wes Clark democrat, I hope that I can persuade you to be more considerate of others.