Other candidates would be smart to defend Kerry, attack sex-smear politics

[JackRiddler]

If I were one of the other candidates, I would take up the issue preemptively by defending Kerry against an invasion of privacy. This would be the right thing to do and obviously would have its collateral opportunistic benefits. I should make a speech delivering the following points:

"Whatever love relations consenting adults may have are not the media's business. These may be happy or tragic for the people involved, but irrelevant to the public interest. In 1992, 1996 and 1998 the American people had the opportunity to show whether they would vote based on stories about sex lives, and they did not do so. They may not approve of the behavior, but they know it has nothing to do with the business of government. They are sick of media-driven distractions from the issues that actually affect their lives. The impeachment and scandal over Clinton's consensual affairs were an enormous waste of our country's energies. It was enormously destructive to our country that for two years the main issue was the sex life of the man, instead of the decisions of the job. Was that really worth it? This is true even if you abhor Clinton's personal behavior. The worst thing he did was to lie about it, instead of making a clear statement that it was nobody's business. (Cite Bush example?) (?I have nothing to hide but...?) I will make no statements about things that every reasonable person will agree are rightly private, and no one else should have to either. STOP THE SEX SMEARING."

[Padraig18]

1. Nope.

Defending adultery would make them look like FOOLS to Middle Americans. They would be better off staying out of it. Adultery IS still frowned on here.

[JackRiddler]

4. who the hell is defending adultery?

This is about defending privacy! And Dean as the rather obvious candidate and true libertarian in the race the perfect man to deliver this message.

Stop treating Middle America like fools. Do you think that many people (who are going to vote) actually cared about Janet Jackson's boob?

[Padraig18]

6. Defending adultery is exactly what it would be.

I stand by my original statement that they would be wise to avoid the entire subject, and let Sen. Kerry deal with it.

[library_max]

22. And then when it happens to them, they can deal with it themselves.

Paging Martin Niemoller.

[JVS]

24. Our candidate was smeared by the Osama ad and the scream frenzy

Kerry supporters can deal with this scandal themselves.

I find the reference to Niemoller offensive. It is an insult to those who actually stood up to tyrany to put Kerry, who has collaborated so heavily with Bush, in their place.

[Padraig18]

26. Bingo!

I didn't exactly have to make extra sandwiches and open the fiold-out sofa to accomodate all the support WE got over that particular bunch of bullshit!

[library_max]

33. I personally posted a bunch of times trying to shut up the "scream" stuff.

But what the hell, bitterness reigns and revenge will have its day. Screw the party and our chances in November!

[library_max]

34. "stood up to tyrany to put Kerry . . . in their place"?

What could you possibly be talking about? What tyranny? Who "actually stood up"? Do you mean that we should hail the people who are smearing Kerry or spreading the smear now as heroes?

When your candidate was in front, you wanted and expected the support of other Democrats in the event that he received the nomination. Can you take a moment to reflect on how pointless and destructive all this bile is now?

[JVS]

36. Those who stood up to Hitler's tyranny (Communists, trade unionists, etc.)

It is an insult to their heroism to put Kerry in their place

[library_max]

38. Oh, sorry, I completely misunderstood your post.

But communists, trade unionists, Jews, etc. did not "stand up to Hitler's tyranny" merely by being communists, trade unionists, and Jews. The point of the original quote is that nobody was standing up to Hitler's tyranny. It was a call for somebody to do the right thing before it was too late for everybody. The people Hitler "came for" are enumerated as victims, not heroes. And I feel comfortable portraying Kerry as a victim of this reprehensible smear.

[JVS]

40. I have seen the memorial to the Reichstag members who voted against...

the enabling act. They were stood up to Hitler and died. Kerry is not worthy of the honor that they deserve. They took a stand!

[library_max]

45. The Niemoller quote is not about the Reichstag members

who voted against the enabling act.

[JVS]

49. That was the SPD faction, they would all be covered under trade unionists

Look, a right wing smear from some news-blogger does not a Hitlerian reign of terrror make.

[progressivebydesign]

16. As a married woman, I'm anti-adultery.

As a parent of a 20 year old, I'm against old men in power trying to sleep with young women for ego gratification, (which is at the heart of these types of stories).

As a Democrat, I'd like to see a candidate that is smart enough to refrain from chasing young women. And one that believes in marriage vows.. but maybe I'm old fashioned.

[Padraig18]

17. You're very much mainstream.

Your values are those that are shared by a VAST majority of the electorate. The "Nothing to see here, move along!" crowd knows this, which is why they want everyone to drop it--- it interferes with their dreams of Presidential grandeur.

[JVS]

23. It bothers me that these sex scandals are always sex with a subordinate

It reeks of using authority for sex. Consent is easier to pry from someone when you have that much power over them.

[JackRiddler]

31. Okay, so to whom is a Senator subordinate to?

Like, nobody?

SO I guess your solution is on inauguration they must take a vow of chastity on pain of removal from office.

[JVS]

37. I am subordinate to no Senator or President! An intern OTOH is.

If I screw the cashier at the grocery store, it's all good. I have no authority over her.

If the manager of the grocery store screws the cashier, then there is an ethical problem.

It really isn't as hard as it seems.

[JackRiddler]

44. So, that would annul what, about 20 percent of all marriages?

In which the manager and the cashier fall in love and get married.

In which coworkers fall in love and get married (and one of them invariably is on a higher level than another).

How many marriages started like that? How many bosses married their secretaries?

How many of the writers on this thread might be children of such unions?!

(Not to mention situations in which coworkers fall in lust and just screw. Oh bugger! I just remembered one of my best affairs was with my boss of the time! And she was waaay older than me! But it's okay, I was the evil male making the advances...)

So is there also harrassment? You bet.

Do you think maybe there is no general rule you can apply to this situation?

[JVS]

46. That boss was engaging in unethical behavior

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

54. Hey, you asked me about stuff. I'm just calling it as I see it.

I am also not suggesting any punishments or calling for a crusade. You ask if I approve and my answer is clear: I do not. To accuse me of crusaderhood is uncalled for.

[progressivebydesign]

53. I don't know.. perhaps they could have sex with their WIFE?

It's age and power thing. An affair is wrong.. but an affair between a man 58 and a young girl who is one year out of her teens would be extremely distasteful to voters. They have daughters.

[West Coast Democrat]

25. So if a story came out accusing Dean of having an affair

you would advise the other candidates to do what?

[w4rma]

27. We asked the other candidates to condemn the Osama ad

but it seems that Gep and Kerry were the candidates who FUNDED the Osama ad.

[West Coast Democrat]

28. The Osama ad has nothing to do with this

but now I understand why Dean supporters are so giddy about the Kerry story. Too bad it won't help anybody running.

[JVS]

It's not our problem

[drfemoe]

59. and the Osama ad helped who? n/t

[emulatorloo]

35. unsubstatiated rumor and innuendo

and Kerry campaign *did* denounce it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=315016

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Kerry DID denounce the Osama ad..this information is readily available

and has been posted several times thoughout the past few days. It's a shame that those MOST WANTING to hear that denouncement have not been present on those threads.

[drfemoe]

60. I just read it for the first time

not good enough.

[CWebster]

2. Especially ones who claim the higher ground when it comes to

the sanctity of marriage? the same ones who pass judgement on the private lives of others...

[JackRiddler]

3. Except (important point)

Those who actually engage in sex-smear politics, like most of the Republicans, are themselves open game, of course, because of the evident hypocrisy! For example, it's irrelevant that Drudge is gay, until he makes an issue of other people's private lives.

[mikehiggins]

5. These FALSE charges go to the issue of electibility

I assume they are false because of the source.

However, the problem is that this calls up the memory of the Clinton White House and the Lewinsky affair. The incredible time spent over that (and the millions of tax payer dollars the GOP pissed away on that witchhunt) is still on the minds of lots of voters.

Nobody wants to go through that again. That's why this is really such an effective attack because it raises questions in people's minds as to whether Kerry is electible and, if he is, can he possibly be an effective President.

This one just has to be a Rove Production (c)

[zanana]

7. ANY candidate can be accused of having an affair.

All they have to do is get one woman to lie. If Kerry gets shoved out because of this, what makes you think it won't happen again to the next leading Democratic candidate? The Republicans know a weak spot when they see it.

[CWebster]

8. I would be genuinely surprised if the could pin it on

Dean, Edwards, Kucinich,

Sharpton and Senator Kerry? Easy.

[zanana]

11. Why?

Did I miss something? I've never heard of Kerry having a problem keeping it in his pants. Why would Dean or Kucinich get a free pass? I'm genuinely curious about this.

[CWebster]

14. call it gut instinct

or an educated guess. ;-)

[dansolo]

32. It's more effective if the candidate has a reputation for womanizing

Clinton and Kerry have the reputations that make even a false accusation more believable.

[progressivebydesign]

52. Which makes me wonder if the story is really derived by Rove.

He would have waited till after the voters had no other choice. He's evil, but he's smart.

[ozone_man]

9. Kerry rushed to defend Dean against Osama ad.

Oh I forgot, Kerry helped fund that ad. Kerry deserves this 100% IMO. Maybe Teresa will leave him.

[JVS]

29. That would rock!

[DuctapeFatwa]

10. Any woman who ever dated any of them is being hunted down

Anyone who runs for national office should expect as much.

[JackRiddler]

19. This brings up an important point...

Does it occur to anyone that the young woman accepting the advances of an old man might herself be a sovereign subject, making her own decisions? An adult?!

Oh, no, she can only be a child-like idiot who is taken advantage of. She hasn't gotten enough abstinence and marital sanctity training to know the difference.

She's a victim, that's all she can be, and the man who makes the advances is a villain, that's all he can be.

Meanwhile, back to the real world...

If you can show evidence of harrassment (meaning sexual advances forced on an unwilling person) or abuse of power (i.e., extortion, blackmail or punishment), then there is a real problem.

I am not buying the "implicit" abuse of power argument that any older man making advances to a younger woman is automatically in the wrong. Look around you, you will see quite a few lower-status men, even older ones, landing in bed with women of all ages, too.

(Now that you've had a look: leave them alone!)

Is there such an implicit abuse of power in many countless cases? Hell, yeah! But how do we distinguish it from a case where there is not an abuse? And what is the cure?

I say it lies in leveling out the power, not in making unworkable prudish rules for it (that will only be applied selectively to the secularists, rarely to the pseudo-pious).

Newsflash. People like to have sex.

Newsflash. Not all sexual relations are defined by power or the abuse thereof.

Newsflash. Where power is involved, they are still adults and it may well be an aphrodisiac.

"Adultery." "Cheating." "Betrayal."

The terms make the crime. What's wrong with consenting adults having sex? It's nobody's goddamn business!

How do you intend to cure human nature? People get attracted to each other, they intentionally attract each other, they make advances, and it is not for you to judge them for it, or to set up the acceptable age criteria.

They may be shrivelled up lizards to you, but a young woman might be attracted to them anyway! What do you think is the right solution? Exile her to Africa? Hound her for interviews? Or just leave them both alone, already?

THERE ARE REAL ISSUES AT STAKE IN THE PRESIDENCY. STICK TO THOSE.

GET A LIFE, AMERICANS. GROW UP.

[Straight Shooter]

12. Dean remarked that he wouldn't touch the issue with a 10-foot pole

I put on hip waders and checked out rush's site last night. He has the quote there.

The GOP wants everybody to step in it. Dean, of all people, has learned to keep his opinions to himself regarding inflammatory issues. And, besides, anything he says would be taken out of context, distorted, et cetera.

This is just the beginning of peeling kerry's onion.

edit semantics

[JackRiddler]

15. well, I do have mixed feelings about it.

"Peeling Kerry's onion." Yeah, most of those not blinded by the "electability" bull dada would like to see that.

Can't we do that by focusing on the Iraq war? The PATRIOT Act? Plan Colombia? NAFTA, "Free" Trade?

Can't it at least be Skull and Bones?

Does it have to be an affair? Can we only ever get political results in this country by reactionary means?

[progressivebydesign]

13. The way they defended Dean from the Osama ad? N/T

[dpbrown]

18. The candidates should together condemn these attacks

The right way to distinguish candidates is on their voting record and their platforms.

This is what Bush did to Governor Richards, Senator McCain, and Senator Cleland.

[Padraig18]

20. One problem with that strategy:

If it turns out that the allegations are true, the rest of the candidates look like FOOLS, Dan.

[library_max]

39. Not if the stand they take is the one Kucinich already took.

That it is a personal matter, none of our business, not worthy of discussion as an issue in a presidential election. That stays true no matter what.

[redqueen]

43. That's why Kucinich is the shi...

I mean that's why he has my vote. :)

:loveya:

[library_max]

48. Classiest, anyway, of all the candidates still running.

I'm tempted to say the same thing about his supporters, but there's that rule against broad characterizations. And the invidious comparison wouldn't be entirely in the Mods' imaginations, either. Anyway, props to you and your candidate!

[mrgorth]

21. Agreed.

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[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. Not if it gives them an edge on ad hominem attacks to defend their losing

candidacy. *sarcasm on*

Yes the DEMOCRATIC WING of the DEMOCRATIC party as some candidates are so fond of calling themselves really should speak up about this...that would be the way to defend THEIR treatment by the media without being a big crybaby about it.

[janx]

47. The best way to stop the sex smearing is to refuse to give

it any time or attention.

[library_max]

50. NOW you tell us!

Where were you before the gazillion threads quoting well-known liberal Matt Drudge got started on this topic?

LOL and thanks.

[JackRiddler]

55. I wish it were that simple!

The only way to stop it, given that it has been an omnipresent monster in politics, is to defang it.

Clinton had the chance to do something useful for a change, and he didn't. All he had to do was say:

- NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

- OBVIOUSLY TRIVIAL TO THE ISSUES OF PRESIDENCY

[quaker bill]

56. Kerry is a big boy

He can take care of himself. The other candidates should stay away from this. If it turns out to be true then all of them will be tarred with it.

[goodhue]

57. hear, hear!

Stop the madness. Its a non-story!

[stickdog]

58. I agree. (nt)