The church police

[lwcon]

Everywhere you turn these days, church and state are doing the nasty.

In Boston, priests and ministers go out on police beats:

Walking up a steep hill on Georgia Street yesterday morning, the Rev. Oscar Pratt and Officer James Gunn approached a woman on her way to a nearby post office. The Catholic priest shook her hand and then introduced the tall police officer. A lively conversation ensued about crime in the Grove Hall neighborhood of Boston.

"Hopefully, we can make a difference," Gunn told the woman....

About a dozen such police-clergy teams roamed the Grove Hall neighborhood yesterday, walking routes that had been mapped out in advance

And in Ohio, a man's bail is reduced because he can quote chapter and verse (via):

CINCINNATI - A man arrested on Wednesday for allegedly trying to use a stolen credit card at a drugstore got a break from a judge after passing a sort of Bible quiz.

When Eric Hine appeared in court this morning, his attorney described him as a church-goer, hoping the judge would set a low bond.

Hamilton County Municipal Court Judge John Burlew was skeptical and asked Hine to recite the 23rd Psalm.

He did: all six verses. Some in the courtroom applauded.

Burlew was satisfied and released Hine on a $10,0000 appearance bond, meaning he'll have to pay that amount if he doesn't show up for his next court date.

Coming this fall: Law & Order: Secular Intent and CSI: Vatican.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[wakeme2008]

1. I have no problem with what the Judge did

The guy could recite all six verses...

Could Bush or 99% of the Repugs in Congress.... I think not.

[kiki]

2. So it's OK to rob people if you've read the Bible?

He obviously missed the whole "thou shalt not steal" bit. Maybe someone who claims righteousness as a member of a religion, but then directly breaks the most basic tenets of that religion, should actually be treated more harshly.

[papau]

3. ?$10,000 bond is high for this crime, second-bond doesn't mean he was given a pass on the criime n/t

n/t

[wakeme2008]

4. No but if you claim you are a bible reading person

and can prove that unlike Bush, I think lower Bond is not out of the order. He will still have to stand trial.

[atommom]

6. I still have a problem with the assumption that he's less likely to flee

because he can recite a psalm. Knowing Bible verses does not make a person more moral, or less of a flight risk. :shrug:

[kiki]

8. You could say the opposite is true.

Arguably, someone who claims to be a Christian but is on trial for an act that is forbidden by Christianity is inherently a liar. Why should you believe anything else they say?

If I was judge, and someone in the dock said "I'm a Christian" as part of their defence, I'd read out the relevant admonition against their crime in the Bible and say, "No, you're not."

[truebrit71]

14. The guy claimed he had read the bible, the judge called him on it...

...he got a lower bond amount...

Judge not lest ye be judged yourself....

[atommom]

15. But why was it relevant? I know the 23rd Psalm too, but I wouldn't expect

a judge to do me any favors because of that ... my knowing it doesn't mean that I'm any less likely to flee.

[truebrit71]

20. The judge probably thought the guy was full of shit and called him on it..

...how many times do we see and hear things from criminals that claim to be christians and roll our eyes? (I'll give you a hint, a whole bunch of them currently occupy the WH) The judge has probably heard more of that shit than most of us combined so he said 'alright matey, prove it'....and when the criminal (alleged) walked the walk the judge lowered the amount..

[kiki]

24. I really hate to repeat myself, but...

...he didn't "walk the walk". He was in court for committing THEFT, which is AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF THE BIBLE. Like I said: "reading" and "being able to regurgitate scripture" DOES NOT EQUAL "understanding", "believing" or "following" the teachings of the Bible. The judge in this case is an ass (or, in deference to a fellow Brit, an "arse" :) ).

Or, you seem to be implying that the judge was lenient purely because the defendant said something in court that turned out not to be a lie. Well, bravo. If that's the case, I'd say the bar has slipped pretty low. If I ever get caught smoking weed, I'll say "It's a fair cop your honour, but can I point out that The Shining was released by Warner Brothers in 1980, the same year Shelley Duvall starred in the Robin Williams vehicle Popeye." The judge will check IMDB on his laptop, and then say "My goodness, you're right. Well done for telling the truth about a completely unrelated matter, young man - you're free to go."

[WI Independent]

30. Ties to the community...

The lawyers claim was that he was a "church goer"... He wasn't going for the moral high ground, he was trying to argue the defendant was less likely to flee because he had a social network he would have to give up if he did.

I guess they could have called in 27 fellow church goers to verify the story but municipal court bail hearings move along pretty quickly. The judge suspected BS, and did his own quick validity test... that' it.

[kiki]

7. Um, again, WHY?

Why does someone who claims to be a Bible-reading person, whether falsely or genuinely, deserve a lower bond? Again, doesn't their hypocrisy in the fact that they have committed a crime that is forbidden in the very same BIble in which they claim to believe (and perhaps we should note here that reading the Bible is not the same as understanding, believing or following the Bible, something this guy obviously had a problem with) warrant sterner, not more lenient treatment?

Ted Haggard and Billy Graham can probably quote the Bible until the self-righteous, hypocritcial bullshit is fairly spewing from their every orifice - does that make them "less bad" when they lie, cheat and steal? I'd say it arguably makes them worse.

Or is it just purely the fact that he claimed to have read a book, and could then prove it was true? Because I can quote whole swathes of Alan Moore's groundbreaking graphic novel Watchmen. Do I get a lower bond the next time I commit a crime?

[lwcon]

11. This is incredibly great news for me

I'll just send the judge a link to: Bible Study for Atheists.

Sweet!

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JerseygirlCT]

10. Sounds like smart community policing to me, too

Use a trusted figure to introduce the local cops, build trust...

The other thing, though... Not right, not by any means. I don't really care about his moral beliefs (or lack thereof). What he did was wrong, and there should be punishment.

[lwcon]

12. Let me know when the police start a program where...

... secular humanists are brought around to help solve community problems. In my experience, they're among the smartest and most progressive people around.

Would you support creation of such a program? Naturally, people of faith wouldn't be allowed to participate, just as atheists can't participate in the Boston program.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[papau]

32. 60 years ago secular humanists were in the program if they wanted to be- it is not a problem

n/t

[lwcon]

13. I hear they're hiring at CNN

http://vastleft.blogspot.com/2007/04/call-and-response.html


___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[kiki]

22. Yeah, that damn "atheist crowd"...

...getting all upset because they don't think that Christian priests should be travelling around with people who are supposed to impartially enforce the law among atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccans and everyone else. I'm assuming you're a Christian - I guess you wouldn't mind if your next speeding ticket came with a lecture on how you should be worshipping Allah, or how Taoism is the only true path to peace.

Oh, and those crazy atheists who want to "control the world" (give me a fucking break) are always so in your face, aren't they? Not like America's current generation of quiet, humble, live-and-let-live Christians.

[donsu]

23. just because the idea is 60 yrs. old doesn't make it a good one

cops and religions should not mix

govt. and religion should not mix

doctors and religions should not mix

religion should be personal and private and not forced on anyone else

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shenmue]

9. So...

nice to know we got rid of that "no law respecting an establishment of religion" thing, it was just getting in the way.

:sarcasm:

:eyes:

[mainegreen]

16. Many communities have civilians work with police.

It's not just members of the clergy. It has to be said: the clergy by are large are members of the community and have a right to participate in government-community programs. The problem would arise if a secular group wanted to participate as well as was denied that right based on the secular nature of that group.

[lwcon]

17. That's exactly the issue

This program isn't for just anybody who's civic minded, it's specifically for clergy.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[mainegreen]

18. Has any other group tried to work with the Boston police in this manner and been denied?

:shrug:

[lwcon]

26. This governmental program is expressly for religious authorities

Do we have to wait until someone becomes a test-case before we admit that this is a violation of the separation of church and state?

As an atheist, if I were approached by a cop-and-priest team, I would feel incredibly intimidated. To some extent, I'm sure that's the idea. There used to be a program like this before. I think it was called "The Taliban."

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[papau]

34. No it is open to atheists or whatevers - this ranks as one of the more mis-informed posts on DU

I just spent some time with some folks on all the ride along programs in Boston - I swear no one needs to walk anywhere there are so many - and none are restricted as to religion or lack of religion. Indeed the OP's original post's Globe article did not say the program under which the ministers were riding along was a restricted to ministers program, now did it?


ride-alongs in Boston:

BOY SCOUT EXPLORER TROOPS--"the Boston Police Explorer Program participants"

PUBLIC EDUCATION PROGRAMS- any group at any time can arrange such ride alongs.

Media Ride-Alongs - story (http://www.dennisfox.net/tab/2004/0101cops.html "Shmoozing with Cops"
My ride-along cop, who grew up in Brookline and seemed comfortable with his ... me is that Brookline police who are coordinating with Boston's sympathized ...)

RIDE-ALONG PROGRAMS for Hostile or critical members of community (as in the Boston's Black Ministerial Alliance ride along in the article).

College Ride Along (e.g. story in Globe about "More than 29000 students will begin classes at Boston University ... at Boston University, will “ride along” with Boston Police from District 14"

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Community Relations Service's ride along - this appears to be a federal funding and cheer leading org which again has no religious rules.

[papau]

33. And someone has verified that there is no equivalent program for the non-clergy? n/t

n/t

[lwcon]

35. The question is whether there is an equivalent program...

...exclusively for non-clergy.

Much as I can't prove there isn't an invisible bearded guy in the sky, nor a floating teapot somewhere in the aether, I can't confirm that such a program doesn't exist, but I reckon we'd hear about it in this sanctimonious and superstitious age.


___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[papau]

37. What crap - there are a few dozen equivalent programs - look it up next time before you scream -see

post 34 and 36

A few phone calls and google would have killed this post before it was written. You had me going as I was upset with the idea of a restricted program - but there is no problem.

And I wasted an hour - and DUers got a chance to dump on the religious - again.

[madmom]

19. this is very wrong on two accounts, I'm not a christian but I have

never stole any thing in my life, does that make me a worse person then him?,2nd I know quite a bit about the bible because I read a lot about ALL religions they fascinate me.

[atommom]

21. Another aspect of the reduced bail story...

Would bail be reduced for people who followed other religions, as long as they could quote from the relevant holy book? The Koran, for example? Would it be reduced for an atheist who could clearly describe his/her own personal moral code? I suspect it wouldn't. It's improper for the judge to give preferential treatment just because he shares the same religion as the accused.

[ToeBot]

25. Ok, but who croaked Lester? n/t

[lwcon]

27. It's a fair cop, but society is to blame.

For the uninitiated: http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/salvfuzz.htm

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[BoneDaddy]

29. Not everything that has to do with religion is bad

and this sounds like a great idea.

Now if you said they were breaking into people's homes and forcing them to learn Leviticus, then you may have a point.

[lwcon]

31. I agree that not everything that has to do with religion is bad

But everything that defiles the vital American principle of the separation of church and state is bad.

Allowing the fundies to chip away at this is the road to http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/blog-against-theocracy-part-iv-takeover.html">theocracy, a road that we're disturbingly far down with 150 Regent U. grads in the current administration.

This is, to steal a line from Elvis Costello, "just the sort of catchy little melody to get you singing in the showers." (Godwin, if not God, be damned. Fascism is a-comin', and the Religious Right is its base). For more on this, see this thread about "conditions on the ground" in the south, and look at posts that have words like "preacher" in them: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3187183

Separation of church and state is the friend of true democracy, and let's not let a smilin' (or otherwise) priest on the beat or a re-written Pledge of Allegiance fool you into thinking otherwise.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lwcon]

38. When have I -- or any atheist -- suggested that...

... "people of faith" be excluded from anything? But there are increasingly programs that exclude "people of reason," such as Bush's faith-based initiatives.

Government programs that treat the religiose as special moral authorities are a dangerous precedent.

___

Hey, the liberal light is always on at the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy. Please stop by and say "hi!"

[Zhade]

39. Religious police? What is this, Saudi Arabia?

NT!