No one is taking impeachment seriously... will we stop wasting time on it now?

[ddbaj]

There you go pro-impeachment crowd, you have your articles of impeachment. The media is ignoring it, DK is being painted as a loon and nothing at all changes. Happy now? Can we move on to stuff that IS getting results and has a chance of changing things like the Gonzales investigations and the 2008 elections?

[AndyA]

1. No, we cannot just excuse Bush and Cheney of their crimes.

Crimes are crimes. It will get worse, much worse, if they are let off the hook.

What the hell do they need to do? Seize your home from you because the Emperor wants it?

The Constitution REQUIRES impeachment. It is not an option. If a law has been broken, Congress SHALL IMPEACH. It must be done. It has to be done to preserve the Constitution.

It was the same with Nixon at first. It will change.

[ddbaj]

3. Well, you have your articles of impeachment.

How effective are they being? No one is even taking it seriously. After today, can you honestly say it's worth the time and effort?

[AndyA]

14. If preserving and protecting the Constitution is worth the time and effort, yes.

If it's just a G*ddamned piece of paper, no.

And you'll have no right to complain, because you let these Nazis take your rights and liberties away from you. Willingly.

If our Founding Fathers had the attitude we have today in America, we'd still be at the mercy of the British throne.

[ddbaj]

16. I am not saying it's the right attitude.

I wish we had a method of throwing all of them out. Impeachment is not it. It won't work and it's wasting our time and effort if we keep trying to prop up this dead horse.

The best we can do, like it or not, is work to expose the administration and hope it's enough to win in 2008. The deck is stacked against us by a corporate media and a GOP spin machine so we need a LOT on our side, I think we can get it if we focus on that and not on things that in the end provide no real benefit.

[AndyA]

34. The real benefit of impeachment is it makes the people responsible for crimes

against America accountable for those actions.

Without it, you have a slap on the wrist and Bush/Cheney and Co. live the rest of their days in the lap of luxury. With Secret Service, free postage, benefits, and everything else. At OUR EXPENSE.

It's like they slit our throats, and then instead of going to jail for it, they are left free to crap down the gaping wound.

No, that is not acceptable, and will just encourage bad behavior on the part of others in the future.

THE BUCK STOPS HERE. WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION!

[ihelpu2see]

73. ditto!!! nt

[A wise Man]

79. And don't forget

"They will be laughing at all of us as they count their booty.

[fooj]

26. How can you say that PROTECTING and DEFENDING the CONSTITUTION

isn't "worth the time and effort"? It's called ACCOUNTABILITY. It's called doing the right thing. Geesh......

[ClassWarrior]

47. Torture... Habeus corpus... Spying on citizens...

Secret meetings... Illegal pre-emptive invasions...

What else isn't "worth the time and effort" needed to remove the Unitary Dictator?

NGU.

[snappyturtle]

64. I completely agree with you. n/t

[loudsue]

72. Absolutely! Besides, we've been ahead of the curve on all the issues so far.

It starts with those of us on the internet left who know what the hell is going on, and EVENTUALLY, everybody else starts figuring it out, and it becomes mainstream.

This will too! That doesn't mean congress will "get it" and do anything about it. But WE, THE PEOPLE of the country DO get it, and impeachment is the only JUST thing this country can do right now.

Never in my lifetime have I heard of so many city councils, state legislatures, and regular old joes talking about impeachment. People in this country KNOW how many laws have been broken by the bush/cheney/rove/rumsfeld cabal, and people want justice.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Horse with no Name]

2. Well I got in trouble yesterday for pointing out low-post count folks with concerns

so...I won't do that today. :popcorn:

[ddbaj]

4. I've been at DU for nearly a year.

Sorry for not posting enough. What exactly about my position makes you uneasy? The fact that I want a dem president in 2008?

[Horse with no Name]

7. I didn't say anything about YOUR low post count

just said I was being careful since I pointed one out yesterday.
I made myself clear on that.

[babylonsister]

13. LOL! No, don't do that!

:spank: :spank:

[unpossibles]

27. with almost no profile

not that I'm saying anything.

can I have some of that popcorn?

[Horse with no Name]

28. Would you like some butter?

:popcorn:

[fooj]

54. I hear that it's six cents a post.

9 cents if you're REALLY good. BWAHAHAHAHA!;-)

[onyourleft]

59. Not everyone who has a low post count is a concern...

troll. :) I definitely disagree with the OP regarding impeachment.

[Alexander]

5. Not yet. The evidence will mount within the next two weeks. Just watch.

Tenet's book, Goodling's testimony and the Gonzales affair will all bring out some juicy details about Cheney.

[ddbaj]

8. See, I agree with you

But I'd rather expose the gang of criminals and use that to win in 2008 which will actually have a huge impact and save lives! I am sick of people who out of zeal for a meaningless solution would willingly put our victory in jeopardy.

And yes I said meaningless. Impeachment not only has no chance in hell, as shown today, but if it somehow happened it would not save a single life in Iraq. We need real change, not just a feel good "Ah yes, justice was served... Bush is still free and rich and our country is still fucked."

[ClassWarrior]

11. It has a tremendous psychological significance.

We draw strength from it, even if it "has no chance in hell." And we'll see about that too.

Never Give Up.

[fooj]

57. If you think our Constitution is "meaningless" then perhaps

you should seek a change of venue.

[fed-up]

6. FUCK NO-we are the new media-have you called, written or done anything to promote HR 333?

I say fuck all those that are throwing in the towel.

They stole the elections

they lied about WMD

and close to a MILLION ARE DEAD

how dare you give up???

since when do you follow MSM and let them direct what Dems do??

[ddbaj]

10. Not just the MSN

No major democratic candidate will be on board with this. The republicans we NEED to remove will not be on board with this. It's silly and a waste of time, we have a real chance of doing real good in this country, impeachment is highly unlikely and a waste of time and political capital compared to other things we can do.

[snappyturtle]

65. Yes!

I want this president impeached and convicted in the Senate to go in the history books.....and for you naysayers, I think taking the bull by the horns by the American people will help us re-establish global credibility. Maybe the faith in our way of life that we're trying to shove down Iraq's throat will gain some credence.

[mike_c]

9. no-- impeaching the war criminals should be the highest priority...

...in America. What part of CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY do you find worthy of office?

[ddbaj]

12. What good would it do?

Assuming by some miracle impeachment happens, what will it do? The Senate will most likely vote him innocent and then he gets to parade that around while we wasted a ton of time just to be able to say "He was impeached!"

How the fuck is that just punishment? The important question, how is that good for America? I'd rather work for a 2008 victory.

[mike_c]

15. a party that shirks its constitutional duty to impeach does not deserve...

...a "2008 victory" IMO.

[ddbaj]

18. You won't vote dem if they don't back impeachment?

Well, I'm sure president McCain will be wonderful for America.

Look, I know it sucks but getting a dem in office is the best thing we can do.

[fooj]

52. No. Getting an AUTHENTIC AMERICAN into office is the best thing we can do.

[Rude Horner]

21. So your idea of "just punishment" is letting him

continue unabated? Myself, I'd like to know that our system of checks and balances still works in this country. I'd like to have confidence in the system again. I'd like to know that when the President breaks the law, there are consequences.

I don't find a whole lot of solace in your "aw, just fuck it" solution. Tell me how that is good for America.

[EST]

17. Question-

Have you called your representative and demanded that they support 333?

Q2) Is one day a suitable period to poll on articles of impeachment?

Q3) Impeachment for real cause, not a political hit parade ala Clenis, is a duty-an obligation-and not an option. You do know that, right?

Timing matters, but not nearly as much as some people seem to think. Cheney, with the subpoenas coming out, could be impeached and removed from office in a month. A GJ impaneled, trial held and he could be imprisoned in another month.
Yes, it ain't likely but it is possible. A determined and angry populace can be an amazing force, if necessary.

[ddbaj]

19. I wish I could share your optimist point of view...

But look at reality, a third of this country still approves of how it is being run. With the right media spin, a majority of this country will be against impeachment (even if not happy with Bush/Cheney) because they'll see it as a political hit job.

Also, if you think any of these guys minus maybe some fall guys (Scooter?) will pay for their crimes, you are delusional. Remember Iran-Contra? Yeah.

[unpossibles]

33. I'm sorry, but the last few polls I've seen show most Americans are fine with impeachment

especially of Cheney and Gonzo. In fact I know several conservatives and independents who are also pro-impeachment. I don't get why you think it's such a waste of time.

[snappyturtle]

66. Criminal is criminal. If they see it as a political hit job, as you put it,

they haven't been paying any attention....for six long years.

[fooj]

20. I don't give a shit how they paint it.

It is their CONSTITUTIONAL duty to protect the integrity of the office of the Presidency and it is their duty to DEFEND AND PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION. Who gives a flying rat's ass about Gonzo and the 2008 Election if we lose OUR CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS?

"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war." (2)

"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its stupidity. War settles nothing." (3)

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion." (4)

"If all that Americans want is security, they can go to prison. They’ll have enough to eat, a bed and a roof over their heads. But if an American wants to preserve his dignity and his equality as a human being, he must not bow his neck to any dictatorial government." (5)



Dwight D. Eisenhower

34th President of the United States

(1953-1961)

[ddbaj]

23. That's fine and I agree.

But I live in reality. Impeachment won't happen. DK's impeachment against probably the most unpopular member of the administration probably won't get a vote in the DEM house. Impeachment is a joke.

Is it sad? Fuck yes. But it's reality, no major dem will touch this with a ten foot pole.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fooj]

50. THIS is reality.

Mocking the RULE OF LAW and those that are desperate to defend and protect OUR CONSTITUTION is hardly "reality" based. You want reality? How about a treasonous rat bastard for a VP who has an approval rating of 9%? Take a look at MY REALITY.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--

I have a right and a duty to "throw off such Government". Sorry you don't feel the same way. Reality, shmeality. It's called the RULE OF LAW.

[fed-up]

22. Today is the service for local 18 YO killed by BUSH/CHENEY LIES-and god knows how many Iraqi service

FY is all I have to say to you if you don't understand what HR 333 is all about.

[ddbaj]

25. How does impeachment save those lives?

Working for a dem president has a chance of getting those kids out of there, wasting our time trying to impeach and and declare him not guilty will not save a single kid in Iraq.

[MrModerate]

24. The release today is not as important as it might be . . .

Had it come from multiple congressmen and with the backing of the leadership. Pelosi et al are letting Kucinich get waaaay ahead of the curve here. Maybe they're being hypercautious and waiting for more dirt to emerge, or maybe they think that dog simply won't hunt (I lean toward answer 2, myself).

The bare facts of the last 6+ years are enough to impeach Bush/Cheney. Unfortunately, impeachment is not a legal process but a political one. Until we reach a tipping point, all impeachment activities will look vaguely silly -- and then they'll look prescient.

*IF* we ever get to a tipping point.

Given my godlike insight, never proved wrong in any forum whatsover, I don't think impeachment will happen to Shimpanski and his gang of toads. Too much focus on candidates for 2008 for there to be an accumulation of energy behind impeachment.

Unless Cheney is killing and eating young boys after buggering them. Then I think it'd be a go.

[ddbaj]

30. Agreed.

I think the responsible thing to do for those who want change is to take that info and use it to win in 08, not for a symbolic win in 07. Mind you, this is assuming we can get impeachment, judging from today... no.

[snappyturtle]

29. Really things are happening.....

I got into this same kind of "argument" yesterday. Read John Nichols's article "Impeachment Fever Rises" in the May 7th,2007 issue of The Nation. In it: "When Nancy Pelosi arrives at the California Democratic Convention in San Diego on April 28--the same day that activists nationwide will rally for presidential accountability--she'll find on the agenda a resolution that delclares that the actions of President Bush and Vice President Cheney 'warrant impeachment and trial,and removal from office.' Delegates are espected to endorse the measure."

One of the state houses in VT voted yesterday for articles of impeachment and the other house is taking up the issue today. If I understand correctly the U.S. House Judiciary Committee will have to act if they are presented with this.

Can't Washington do two things at once? or more! I see a lot of data gathering and finger pointing going on but not much else. The subpoena thing today is good but it will probably be a battle too. It's not going to be easy but we CAN NOT let this administration which has raped the nation of lives,treasury and rights set a precedent for the future. We've lost too much already.

[ddbaj]

32. Precedent?

Did the Nixon impeachment stop Bush from using illegal wiretappings?

A serious impeachment drive by the Democratic party is a GOP strategists wet dream, which is why they won't back it. I wish pro-impeachment DUers would join reality.

[Zhade]

60. Um, maybe you should actually learn history before lecturing people not to support the Constitution.

Nixon was never impeached. He resigned first.

[snappyturtle]

63. When the process gets rolling the

repukes who want to hold on to their seats will see the light of day....criminal is criminal. Other than the fact Nixon wasn't impeached, he resigned, after Nixon the wiretapping protocols were firmly set and this president has violated that. He has thumbed his nose at FISA. If we let him get away with that & habeas corpus, torture,signing statement excesses and don't impeach (because other admonitions haven't worked) then we are setting precedent.

The GOP will spin the Democrats failure to impeach into an endorsement of their policy in the 2008 elections. I can already hear a political conversation where the repuke candidate says,"Well they didn't impeach us so they really agreed with us." Rove is probably working at it as we speak. Put your little head in the sand.

[GreenPartyVoter]

31. Why stop at not impeaching the junta? Let's not prosecute any bad guys ever.

Drug dealers? Set 'em free.
Rapists? Doff your hat to 'em.
Child molestors? Give 'em a medal.

Hey, if it's all good for getting us to a better place, then let's do it.

[ddbaj]

36. Okay.

How exactly does impeachment punish the junta? HOW?

At most you'd remove a couple of them and they'd go live in their mansions, in reality it will probably either fail in the house or the Senate. Do you honestly think 16 republicans + people like Lieberman will vote for remove?

[Jack Rabbit]

35. Let's stop wasting time and get the tyrants out of office

No time spent on the effort to impeach Bush and Cheney is wasted.

[ddbaj]

39. Removing tyrants from office?

Winning in 2008 is a good way.

Or do you have a list of 16 GOP senators who will vote to remove? Of course, that's assuming people like Joe L, Ben Nelson, etc vote for it, so make it 20. Most of them are in safe seats or not up for election, so the whole "people will force them" meme won't work here.

[fooj]

56. Winning in 2008? Didn't you get the memo?

Rove thinks he has that covered. Perhaps we should just leave them all in OUR HOUSE and then we can find out, eh?

[snappyturtle]

68. This is the second time you've brought this 16 thing up!

How do YOU know we won't, after impeachment by the time it gets to the Senate, not have the "16"? You got the cart before the horse.

[Old and In the Way]

38. Well, it needs to get out of committee first.

That will depend on the evidence. While I am an impeachment supporter, I want the case to be so airtight, no one can dismiss it. I wish DK had let the various committees do their due diligence first. Now, Republicans and the media will frame every committee hearing as a political stunt to manufacture evidence for supporting the impeachment. It's good politics for DK and his presidential bid, but it changes the non-partisan nature of these hearings.

[ddbaj]

41. Thank you for some sanity.

I personally will not support impeachment until ANYONE can produce a list of 16 repubs who have even a SLIGHT chance of voting for removal. So far no luck.

[Old and In the Way]

58. No, that really doesn't bother me in the least.

I don't really care if impeachment fails because Republicans won't support the Constitution and I doubt this Republican Congress would ever do the right thing for crass political reasons, anyways. That doesn't bother me at all. The voters can decide if the Republicans were right to protect Bush. The vote is important to send a signal to future dictators that we will impeach for real crimes against this country's Constitution. I just think it is premature and forces Democrats to commit now on an emotional basis before the facts are on the table. DK is forcing this now....certainly smart politics for him, but I hope he doesn't kill the chance for this action later because he wants to use it to score points for his campaign.

[Zhade]

61. Exactly. Instead of being willing to let criminals skate, some people...

...should get past their cowardice and realize that an attempt made to hold criminals accountable, even a failed one, is better than no attempt at all.

[jedr]

40. MSM job is to make money, not direct the government;

That's YOUR JOB...........Get your hand written letters out to both your congressman and senator . Sen. Sanders has it right, impeachment will come form the grass roots ,and that's you and me. The time has come.:party: :toast: :toast:

[ddbaj]

42. You do that.

I'll be working my ass off to elect dems in '08. When you're done trying to impeach without a chance of removal, you can join me. Unless impeachment without removal is worth president McCain or Romney.

[jedr]

51. I may be wrong but, I get the feeling that you weren't around ;

When Nixon went down... But that aside, the letters are worth your time and get behind your candidates and we will do this together

[Mister Ed]

43. False choice.

The implication here is that we can either proceed with impeachment efforts or work on things like the Gonzales investigation and Campaign '08.

Nonsense. We can do all of these things, and much more.

[ddbaj]

44. Political capital sir.

In order to pursue this, we'd have to bend AT LEAST 16 republicans to the remove camp, probably closer to 20. If we're serious about this, we have to put everything into it. Or do you support a half-ass impeachment with no chance of removal?

[Mister Ed]

49. Synergy

Investigations fuel impeachment efforts fuel Campagin '08 etc. etc. etc.

Fires are catching and spreading. Too many for the crooks in power to contain and stamp out.

The fuel for these fires is the criminal activity of the Busheviks. They have provided an inexhaustible supply of fuel. We do not need to conserve it.

[Bridget Burke]

45. How much time have YOU wasted on impeachment?

(If we don't count the time you spent on this thread?)

Nobody is saying you shouldn't focus on issues you consider more important.

[Zhade]

46. I don't think attempting to hold criminals accountable is wasting time.

Maybe you don't believe in the Constitution and rule of law, but some of us still do, so we'll just keep pushing for justice, thanks.

[ddbaj]

48. Accountable? HOW?

Impeachment will do nothing to these people. You know we need the senate to REMOVE right? Impeachment is the first step. Right now, it's a joke. We don't have 50 votes in the senate for removal and we need 67.

[Zhade]

62. As I've told others - you can't read the future.

If you have no desire to support the Constitutional requirement that Congress attempt to hold these criminals accountable, I really have nothing more to say to you.

Rest assured, however, that fearful nonsense like yours only reinvigorates the fight, so thank you for your contribution to the pro-justice crowd!

[Old and In the Way]

69. You are missing the point of impeachment.

We already know that Republicans will vote against impeachment. That's a given. But there are 2 very important reasons to impeach-

1) To show the American people that Democrats will do the right thing and they are not the flip side of the coin.

2) To provide a warning to future 'unitary executives' that we will use this tool to deal with any President that oversteps his Constitutional authority.

Just because impeachment might fail politically in Congress doesn't mean squat. What matters is that we did the right thing and the American people will hold their representatives accountable at the ballot box. Let the Republican explain to the voter why George Bush doesn't deserve to be impeached...I suspect that the majority will disagree.

[snappyturtle]

71. One l-a-st time:

You see it works like this: First the House impeachs. So much will come out in that that Senators who might today question their approval of it will support because they'll know the tenor of the nation for certain at that point. AND, something people keep forgetting: the vote in the Senate is a two-thirds vote of the Senators PRESENT! I can see where some might opt to abstain or not show.Doing nothing is saying....break the laws, take our rights and make us the butt of jokes worldwide....but let's pre-emptively push this wonderful form of government down the throats of other countries.


And if you look at past impeachments it doesn't usually hurt people who bring it which would HELP the 2008 election. Since your heart isn't in it, step aside, you do your thing and let the impeach supporters do their thing. And as Daniel Ellsburg has said,"If you want to move Bush on Iraq,get serious about impeachment."

AMEN.....gotta go write another letter in my support for H.R.333!

[IndianaGreen]

53. The reason we are in this mess is because people didn't take the Constitution seriously

Present day Americans are the most ignorant people on this planet about their own history and tradition. It was the Constitution that kept us free, not the military!

Cheney has been at the vortex of everything the Bush government has done, from lying about the war, to torture and secret prisons, to abuse of powers. If we don't impeach Cheney, we are sending a message that anyone can be above the law if they get enough power and influence.

People ignored the Left, which includes Dennis Kucinich, when we warned them about going to war in Iraq. We were ignored. Now we have over 3,300 dead GIs and a quagmire that rivals Vietnam in scope and folly.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

55. supporting one method of removal does not detract from another

"Can we move on to stuff that IS getting results..."
That statement seems to imply that supporting one method of removal detracts from another.

What is the specific and relevant reason that engagement in one method of removal prevent another method from happening in this particular instance?

[Dr Fate]

67. People I meet all the time are for impeachment.

Just because the media, GOP and frightened Demcorats are opposed to it does not mean that normal people are going to side with Cheney on this.

[leftofthedial]

74. move along. nothing to see here.

if wolf blitzer isn't talking about it, it doesn't exist.

[ChiciB1]

75. A Group Called A28 Has Mustered Many Demonstrations All Over

the U.S. this week-end. I'll be attending one here in Sarasota, and they have rented 3 planes with banners on them say IMPEACH!!

One will be flying close to me in St. Pete/Pinellas Park! A large group going down to Miami too that I know of.

Check out the webstie A28.org! While I'm not hyped about Impeachment, I'd rather watch more and more hearings... I will attend because I want to get as many people out there who will show how very much VENOM we feel about THE IDIOT and his HENCHMEN!!!

[mmonk]

76. Sorry, but hell no. Just because our dirty little world of politics

currently says no, I will not back down.

[DuaneBidoux]

77. I agree. Actually I would like to spend minimal time on WH and Republican lawlessness.

For the WH at least it would at best be symbolic because even if we could get there by the time we did his term would be over.

I don't want to miss the chance to stress a positive message and actions that help people (i.e., getting out of Iraq, health care, environmental issues, minimum wage and working conditions and trade generally, etc.) These things, not running down Republicans, will ensure that we have a clean sweep in 07.

This is a practical matter, not a matter of principle. Yes I think shrub is a crook bordering on major war criminal but it is nothing but symbolism to pursue him and it is symbolism that would take up a finite amount of political capital so that we have nothing less to pursue a better future for the US.

[trudyco]

78. Who's time is being wasted? You act like we can only work on

one thing at a time.

I think impeachment of Cheney is a great idea, it is important that we uphold our constitution and hold officers accountable. Draw a line in the sand.

I suspect Kucinich is doing this too soon. They need to investigate a little more. How did they get money for Star to investigate Clinton? We should have the same thing for Cheney. I think they investigated way before bringing in impeachment proceeedings on Clinton. Spent millions of dollars.

The Dems should do that. Congress is getting the subpeonas but then not acting on them. What's up with that?

[paulk]

80. I wouldn't agree that impeachment should be off the table

but I do think that DK's approach brings more damage to that goal than help.

It's not unreasonable that the investigations under way now will lead to impeachment of the current administration - all DK's grandstanding does is cheapen the real work that is being done toward that end.

[Fozzledick]

81. No one is taking the rule of law seriously... will we stop wasting time on it now?

:crazy: