TNR....those in party supporting Dean may face retribution.

[madfloridian]

I saw this a kos, and I can not access the article. It is subscription only. This sounds like anyone who endorsed Dean is in for some pain from the party.


This TNR article (sorry for the subscription only) details how the purges are already beginning within the Democratic establishment (think unions, DLC, Brookings institution, all politicians who endorsed Dean) of anyone who supported Dean. it made me just fly into a rage. if they don't want me, my money, my time and dedication, they can go f#@$ themselves into irrelevance like the Democrats already have.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040223&s=foer022304

Officially, the Kerry campaign pledges to bring the party together and to move past such gloating. But some establishment Democrats, both inside and outside the Kerry campaign, still intend to punish the Dean heretics. And, while well-known politicians, such as Gore, Harkin, and Moseley Braun, may endure the most public abuse, the people who may ultimately suffer explicit retribution for their Dean-boosting are cogs in the Democratic machine--people like Daalder, who toil in think tanks or union leadership or groups like the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC). As one former high-ranking Clinton administration official puts it, "Will they work again in this town again? I hope not."

Can someone with a subscription verify this story, please? I am begging. I find this so very disturbing, but I need to verify first.

[NashVegas]

1. This Bothers Me Much More than An Affair

Much more. And when I think of all the times I've seen Howard Dean called 'arrogant' in this very forum, this story makes me want to puke.

[roguevalley]

2. If this is true, then I hope we all lose. I'm sick of living in a fascist

country.

[quaker bill]

3. This is just another reason we need to take over the party

While I am pro-Dean, the notion that this sort of crap could happen to the supporters of any candidate is sad. If true, it is just a further sign of a party that has wandered too far from it's ideological basis.

[quinnox]

4. I heard all Dean supporters will be rounded up and

sent to "re-education" school.

It's a joke!!!!

[dsc]

10. glad you think that is funny

Maybe you will find my lack of support for Kerry funny too if this actually has happened.

[joeybee12]

5. Remember--this is TNR--now a Repuke mouthpiece, so please consider

the source.

That said, there may be some truth to this. Politics is a very dirty business, no matter what side you're on. And if retaliation is in the minds of some in the Dem leadership, it sickens me. If they spent one fraction of the time they did tearing Dean down that they should used going after Dumbo and his evil henchmen, this country and this world would not be in the mess it is.

[NashVegas]

11. And How Will They Retaliate Against Edwards? Kucinich? Sharpton?

And their backers?

Did I leave anyone out?

At this moment, I feel the same way I did when I watched last year's war protesters in NYC, London, etc. Millions of people took to the streets. Millions. And their voice went unheard.

[Nicholas_J]

75. The New Republic isnt a "Repuke Mouthpiece"

I think you are thinking of the National Review, the magazine started by William F. Buckley.

Of course those who support Dean will face retribution if they continue to oppose the decisions of the party to begin to back the frontrunning cnadidate, especially since that simply drags out the process of getting the campaign for the general election longer and makes it more diffiicult fo the party to begin working on strategies to deal with the Republican campaign. This is a team sport, and when the majority in the party make a decision as a group, decided by the majority of the group, then members of the team are simply expected to be team players after a point, and cease engaging in obstructionism, based on the self interests of one candidate, against the intersts of the entire party, and the democratic electorate majorities apparent choice. They will be given the chance to say their say, but in the end they will be expected to do what the party deems best for the party, base on what direction the Democratic electorate seem to be taking. Once the party has decided, the minority is expected to do what the majority has decided is best.


Obviously, if they will not play by the rules established by the party, they should not expect the party to support future endevors by members who are attempting to block the decisions made by the party leadership, based on the direction indicated by the largest numbers of of democratic voters. Thats the way party politics is played, if a candidate is opposing the will of the party and the electorate, they should not expect endorsement or economic support from the part in the future. Dean himself has taken millions of dollars of money from the party for his campaigns for Governor of Vermont in the past, and he is simply expected to play by the party's game plan, for all of the support and might I say, loyalty the party gave to Dean and those who have endorsed him, have recived from the party in the past. This loyalty is established to be a two way street.

[ibegurpard]

78. The Party made a wrong turn on that street a LONG time ago.

eom

[Deansspecialinterest]

82. This may be a team sport,

but it is also supposed to be a democratic process. The majority of the electorate hasn't spoken yet, and Dean has repeatedly said that he will support whoever the voters choose. It's important to differentiate between what some Dean supporters on these boards have said and what Dr. Dean himself have said. I would vote for Carrot Top over W., but that doesn't mean I wouldn't vote for someone better if I had the chance. Some voters feel differently, and that is absolutely their right. I do think it would be irresponsible for a candidate to attack the front runner once he had won the nomination, but Dean has shown absolutely no intention to do that -- in fact he has repeatedly said that he won't. I think that he -- like so many of his supporters -- is bothered by the fact that the Democratic Party seems to want to disenfranchise 75% of its members. I thought we had all learned a valuable lesson about letting all of the votes be counted, but I guess some people are too intent on "getting over it."

[Nicholas_J]

96. If Dean is pulling 4 percent

And not even getting delegates in all of the states he is running in, thne after a while the party doe have the right to state his campaign is looking less viable than the candidacy of others, even two others, who are consistantly doing better than he is, vote wise, so that the field cna be narrowed doen to the most viable candidates, and then a viable selection made. Dean hasnt even cut enough votes to get delegates in all the states he is running in.

After a certain point, the party can state that Deans efforts are obstructing, rather than assisting, the party to get a strong nominee going in time to beat Bush.

At a certain point, if Dean is just hanging in until the end after the point comes that it is obvious that he cannot win, and all that is doing is preventing the selection of a clear choice among two remaining candidates, then the party would be right to seriously criticise Dean.

[Foswia]

83. You are correct

Those who bash TNR all the time have never read it after AS left. PB is pretty liberal, yes they are pro war, but so am I. If certain Dems here can't accept not all liberals are so beholden to this liberal dogmatism, its not our place to correct them. They will just call you names.

Its amusing because some of us 'Repukes' make certain holier than thou posters look moderate. Posters here love their simplistic view of the world: they label anyone who disagrees with them a 'Repuke.’ Bush does the same thing with evil doer. Ironic yes?

[Foswia]

89. After PB took over it moved to the left domestically. You are confused[nt]

[regnaD kciN]

92. Haven't you noticed...?

If they spent one fraction of the time they did tearing Dean down that they should used going after Dumbo and his evil henchmen, this country and this world would not be in the mess it is.

Since 1972, the "centrists" in the Democratic LOSERship Council and such groups have always spent far more energy trying to drive liberals out of the Democratic Party than they have Republicans out of the Oval Office.

:grr:

[redqueen]

103. A-freaking-MEN!

This warrants repeating:

"Since 1972, the "centrists" in the Democratic LOSERship Council and such groups have always spent far more energy trying to drive liberals out of the Democratic Party than they have Republicans out of the Oval Office."

That's what they're here to do, folks. Ensure corporate rule. To do that, they must make war on progressives in the party.

:puke:

[Tinoire]

123. TNR is a DNC/DLC mouthpiece. There's nothing Republican

about it.

I don't like them because they're neo-liberal but they are definitely not Republican.

Neo-liberal is just as bad as Republican because it's part of the PNACish neo-cancer eating away at both parties but it's not Republican.

Think more along the lines of DLC and there you have the New Republic.

[dsc]

6. If this is true it is the final straw

If you don't want my candidate, you don't want me.

[WillyBrandt]

7. Bunch of baloney

Read the article. A lot of people are embarassed that they endorsed a guy whose campaign imploded. And other people say, "Ooooh!"

That's about as far as it goes. There's simply no story here. There is no Democratic establishment to exact revenge.

It's a non-story, and it speaks ill of TNR that they'd print it

[dsc]

12. read the post

the link is subscription only and the person can't read it.

[Cheswick2.0]

13. a lot of people are embarrased they supported a candidate who continues

to do better than the one you supported? :7

[WillyBrandt]

26. I'm sorry?

[madfloridian]

16. I CAN'T read it without a subscription.

If someone belongs can they pm me a copy of the article? I will subscribe if I have to do so.

If any of this at all is true, then forget party at all.

And do not tell me this is funny or a non-story. Do NOT do that.

[WillyBrandt]

OK--Check your box

[Eloriel]

63. I read the entire article. Your "take" is flat wrong.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stuzzy]

8. I wouldn't have supported a third party run by Dean before

but if this is true, I hope he does it, and I will support it, and give every penny I can.

[Cheswick2.0]

9. these establisment democrats need to lose a few more before they wise up

I hope this is not true.

[formernaderite]

77. It's as if we're some sort of leper colony....

...yet if and when we leave to vote for a third party, we'll be called traitors.

[denverbill]

118. The establishment Democrats don't care if they win or not.

As long as either they or the Republicans retain power.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

14. Coming from TNR brings up the credibility question as in....

TNR/Drudge, Drudge/TNR, no credibility whatsoever.

[Foswia]

85. You know TNR liked Clark at first right? No? Well read!

The TNR agreed with Clark’s polices and views on most issues. They were one of the early debunkers of the ‘firing’ of Clark. If you think the authors have credibility problems, then i ask you to name some of those? Ugh, they have some very good and well known authors, debates between pro and anti war liberals, and they savage Bush. You are very confused.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

19. Then it is time to do that.

It is time to clean it up if this is true. Make fun of us, go ahead. That is really productive.

[liberalhistorian]

44. Well, I'm sorry, but it appears

he has a point, and Dean supporters had no trouble at all arrogantly dismissing anyone who wasn't totally with them. Dean destroyed himself, no one else is responsible for that. Shoe's different when it's on the other foot, isn't it?

[ibegurpard]

52. I hope you find comfort in your smugness when we sit on our hands

in November

[Crunchy Frog]

99. I hope you find comfort

during the next Bush administration. You can be comfortable in your own smugness, even if you can't get a job, can't get health care, lose your reproductive freedoms, have friends or family sent off to more wars, you can still be very satisfied with yourself for standing up for your principles.

[liberalhistorian]

129. If you do that, then

you will guarantee us four more years of Bushista hell from which this country will simply not survive. And I'm not being dramatic, that's simply the naked, brutal truth. And surely you must know by now that there truly would be a difference between Shrub and ANY of the other Dems. If Dean's so electable, why the hell hasn't he won ONE SINGLE PRIMARY since they started????????????????????????

[Cheswick2.0]

21. not the same thing billy

apples and oranges

[Julien Sorel]

27. Looks like oranges and oranges to me.

The ultimate in hypocrisy: Tom Harkin, who's been working in Washington since 1969, a three-term senator and a multi-term congressman, introducing Dean for his 'I have a Scream' speech, yammers about how the 'Washington insiders' were going to circle the wagons against the mighty Dean. I was laughing so hard I almost forgot to lose respect for the man.

They were willing to launch a war against the 'insiders,' but don't want to suffer the consequences. Apples to oranges? Horseshit.

[Nazgul35]

61. If you can't tell the difference

between the rank and file Democrats who have been shut out by the monied elites of this party, than I don't know how to help you...

And i find it particularly ironic that you have a Clark banner...

The campaigns (i.e. the supporters) of the Clark, Dean and Kucinich campaigns were about rebuilding the grass roots of this party that was destroyed by the orgy of soft money that rained down on our party throughout the 90s.....

Perhaps you are so turned on by the idea of Clark being on the ticket that you forgot what the Clark campaign said it was about.....

Which is worse, people who fought and lost or those who fought and bought into the system?

To quote Pink Floyd:

"Did you exchange a walk on part in the war,
for the lead role in a cage?!"

bash away....swing the oppressor's club as hard as you like...join the purging....

This was the first shot in the long war to take back our Party from those special interests who buy our candidates.....

Already those from the Clark, Dean and Kucinich camps are looking past this primary towards developing ourselves into a group that will not only rival those monied interests, by replace and destroy them...once and for all.....

And We Will...

[Julien Sorel]

74. LOL...

Good luck...

[nightperson]

113. Seriously,

apart from all this, "Wish You Were Here" is a great song.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

23. sure, get back to us when Edwards campaign is less of a disaster

:7

[liberalhistorian]

132. Really? He's been doing a helluva

lot better in the primaries than certain other DU "darlings", now, hasn't he? I don't consider that to be a disaster at all.

[Sushi-Lover]

34. I think this is probably not true,

but if it is true its about the dumbest thing anyone could do. If Dean supporting individuals face a "purging" and it gets out before Nov it will do serious damage. People who like to post nasty statements about anything regarding Dean should think about the much spoken of "party unity" before saying that a purge would be a good idea. Also, there are plenty of cases where 'disasters waiting to happen' were backed by individuals who were not stupid. Shall we purge everyone who supported Clinton? I like the guy, but he definitely had a disaster that weakened the party.

[Bombtrack]

45. Dean ran the most hostile, negative, devisive campaign in the primary

Yet, we critics of him have to worry about unity

[Sushi-Lover]

54. Everyone ends up making themselves somewhat biased.

I think this is what happened to you. People tend to read the good stuff about their guy and all the bad stuff about the other guys. Especially one who rubs them the wrong way for reasons that are usually much harder to pin down.

Dean's campaign has been no more 'hostile' then any other. It all depends on what attacks you are receiving and where you are in the standing. Each of the campaigns has "gone negative" when it was strategically in their interest to do so. I really dislike negative (even if what is being said is true) campaigning, but I'm realistic enough to know its part of politics. Also, how you rate the 'hostility' of a remark depends directly on your loyalties and perspective.

Dean has repeatedly said he will actively support the eventual nominee and that is exactly what he needs to do. His active support of the nominee, after the convention, will do a lot for 'unity'. Attitudes like yours will not. You should worry about unity if you care about the Democratic party and getting GW out.

[madfloridian]

56. He ran a campaign on getting the truth out.

Now when he speaks out and defends himself, he is put down and made fun of.

For the record, most of us are just average folks who want the party to stop being yes men.

The other guys are now saying what he said, and they are not giving him credit.

You really get nowhere by making fun of us.

[Bombtrack]

86. Oh by lying repeatedly?

A truthful campaign wouldn't have had to retract a statement 27 different times and apologize vociferously on numerous ocasions

It wouldn't be based on the accusation that they are the only "real democrat" running.

[Rich Hunt]

101. negative to whom?

I was attracted to the campaign because it was the one that seemed to have the most faith in people.

[Meldread]

18. Sicking but probably true.

Nothing will shock me now. I can only hope that this Intern thing will cause Kerry to crash and burn and a Edwards/Dean or a Dean/Edwards ticket can emerge.

[ibegurpard]

20. One more reason to say fuck you to the Party.

Can't wait for the next DNC solicitation.

[John_H]

57. Maybe it'd be better to find out if the Dean people would have treated

the Kerry people any differntly if they had won. Think they would? Shyeah.

[Nazgul35]

64. If by Kerry people...

you mean fat cat contributors and interest groups that have used soft money to purchase our Party and destroy our grass roots organization.....

than I would have gone and watched them get hung by their heels....

Why can't people understand that the Dean campaign (and the Kucinich and Clark campaigns) were about rebuilding the grass roots?

Already we are organizing and beginning to retake control of the local Dem apparatus...

And I wouldn't use the past tense if I were you.....we may not be Dean, Clark or Kucinich campaigners anymore, we are going to take back the party....

We got a taste of what is possible...$45 million in six months....think of all the candidates we could fund who would owe absolutely nothing to special interests or the party leadership.....

Scary huh?

The monied interests may have won the first battle, be we will win the war.....it is only a matter of time....

[John_H]

88. No. I mean underpaid twent-five year olds at the DNC.

Dean would have replaced them with underpaid twenty five year olds of his own. Christ.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

139. from your lips to God's ears

"Already we are organizing and beginning to retake control of the local Dem apparatus ... we may not be Dean, Clark or Kucinich campaigners anymore ... We got a taste of what is possible...$45 million in six months....think of all the candidates we could fund who would owe absolutely nothing to special interests or the party leadership....."

[texasmom]

22. Very upsetting

but it rings true. It would be the ultimate sad irony if Terry MacAuliffe's extreme efforts to unify the party around Kerry brought about the opposite--dividing the party beyond repair this year. I truly pray this is not happening, but the events we are seeing make it appear to be so.

[WiseMen]

24. More Slamming of Kerry using Inuendo, rumor, speculation. WHY?

[madfloridian]

37. Excuse me? I posted about retribution from the party.

I did not say a word about Kerry.

[edzontar]

106. yeah, but Kerry supporters know that Kerry IS the party establishment

If this is true, I shall actively support a third party candidate, and since i live in a swing state, this could even HURT.

[RetroLounge]

108. Remember

Inuendo, rumor, speculation always reminds people of Kerry.

[mmonk]

25. I'm getting tired of power plays

inside the party. I think the factions are going to rip it apart. Whatever happened to what the rank and file think?

[killbotfactory]

28. If they lose yet another election, at least they won't be able to blame

Dean supporters. Although I'm sure they'll try.

[PAMod]

131. If?

That's being optimistic.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[denverbill]

119. Freeper.

[Eloriel]

29. I'll Subscribe -- meet me you know where in a few minutes n/t

[seaglass]

30. I don't have a subscription either but the paragraph you

have makes it look like Daalder is going to be punished when the opening paragraph sounds like Daalder doesn't even support Dean. It's probably best to read the entire article before jumping to conclusions.

DEAN'S SUPPORTERS FACE RETRIBUTION.
Oops!
by Franklin Foer

Post date 02.13.04 | Issue date 02.23.04
With John Kerry cruising to victory, these are supposed to be healing days for Democrats, when they embrace old adversaries and apologize for vicious attacks launched during the primaries. But now that Howard Dean has fallen, some in Washington can't resist kicking the corpse one last time. Last week, I called Ivo Daalder, an alumnus of Bill Clinton's national security team, at his Brookings Institution office. And, while etiquette might dictate that Daalder lavish praise on the vanquished candidate, he spent our phone conversation critiquing Dean's foreign policy In Daalder's view, the Vermont governor's positions on Iraq range from the facile--"bringing into one hundred thousand Muslim troops that don't exist"--to the self-destructive--"I didn't like that he criticized the senators who voted for the eighty-seven billion dollars. We can't get things right in Iraq without the funding."...

[EXE619K]

31. Fantastic!

Speaking on behalf of myself only....

I hope to hell Dean turns down even an invitation to Boston.

It's hard to distinguish the Republican thuggery from the Democratic ones these days.

[NashVegas]

32. Um, Hey, Waitaminute!

What's on the page you're linking to is something different from the text you've posted. kinda.

DEAN'S SUPPORTERS FACE RETRIBUTION.
Oops!
by Franklin Foer
Post date 02.13.04 | Issue date 02.23.04

With John Kerry cruising to victory, these are supposed to be healing days for Democrats, when they embrace old adversaries and apologize for vicious attacks launched during the primaries. But now that Howard Dean has fallen, some in Washington can't resist kicking the corpse one last time. Last week, I called Ivo Daalder, an alumnus of Bill Clinton's national security team, at his Brookings Institution office. And, while etiquette might dictate that Daalder lavish praise on the vanquished candidate, he spent our phone conversation critiquing Dean's foreign policy. In Daalder's view, the Vermont governor's positions on Iraq range from the facile--"bringing into one hundred thousand Muslim troops that don't exist"--to the self-destructive--"I didn't like that he criticized the senators who voted for the eighty-seven billion dollars. We can't get things right in Iraq without the funding."...

[madfloridian]

36. I quoted what I found at kos, could not tell which was from article.

I have the article now, and another. Enough to make me uncomfortable, and to see why folks are backing off now.

I will not post from the other yet, as it is not verifiable at this point.

[NashVegas]

41. Ah

I've got a friend with a subscription, going to have to ring him up.

[seaglass]

49. There's a pop-up for a free 4 week subscription when you

close the window n/t

[LiviaOlivia]

33. Last 4 paragraphs only(large article)

DEAN'S SUPPORTERS FACE RETRIBUTION.
Oops!
by Franklin Foer

Post date: 02.13.04
Issue date: 02.23.04

<snip>

For the elected officials who endorsed Dean--like McGreevey or O'Malley--it's hard to calculate whether there will be long-term costs. Some aggrieved colleagues suggest they have potentially damaged their reputations in the eyes of the DLC-friendly network of donors and perhaps could lose access to the p.r. services that the DLC performs by trumpeting politicians in its publications and conferences. But, for Kamarck, the costs are much clearer. According to New Democrat sources, it is unlikely that she'll be invited to speak at centrist Democratic conferences or to write in the New Democrat journals that have been her prime stage for the last 20 years. "How can you think of her the same way again?" asks one Democratic wonk.

This may explain why Kamarck is now trying to distance herself from Dean, just like Daalder and McEntee. She now argues that she "stopped just short of endorsing Dean"--not the impression one would get from the column she wrote last month pronouncing Dean "the strongest candidate against Bush that the Democrats have." But it may be that you really can't go home again. When I mentioned some of the derisive comments made by her New Democrat colleagues, she showed just how thoroughly she had internalized Dean's anti-establishment message. "That's stupid Washington bullshit," she said. And there was one other response she wanted to share with her erstwhile friends: "Fuck 'em."

In official statements, the Kerry campaign echoes the conventional wisdom that Democrats are too consumed by their desire to beat Bush to spend much time hating one another. They predict a Democratic Party lovefest in Kerry's big tent. "Put on your lipstick," the Democratic strategist Donna Brazile told me. "There's going to be a lot of kissing going on." But many of the policy types who would likely assume top positions in a Kerry administration still hope to punish the opportunism of the erstwhile Deaniacs. "It's going to be hard to forget," says one Kerry adviser.

Still, Brazile is basically right. The Kerry campaign isn't brimming with hatred. In fact, many in its ranks feel a certain empathy for the Deaniacs. After all, many of Kerry's advisers signed up for his campaign in early 2003, thinking they had hitched themselves to the clear favorite in the race. Then they watched for an entire year as Kerry's numbers sank and sank. Ed Kilgore of the DLC, a Kerry adviser who helped write the candidate's book A Call to Service, says he was subjected to merciless ribbing. "People treated you like you made a calculated decision to sign on with the front-runner--so you got what you deserved." During Kerry's months in the wilderness, Kilgore's comrades in the campaign sunk into depression, discussing their post-campaign career options and jokingly comparing their candidate to Edmund Muskie, another derailed front-runner from New England. "It was a miserable, lonely time," says Schaitberger. Then, after Kerry's Iowa win, his fortune reversed again, and, in the blink of an eye, he went from also-ran back to front-runner. As one Kerry aide puts it, "I always stick out campaigns and lose. This is the first time I have ever benefited from patience." Perhaps there is still hope for the Deaniacs after all.

[madfloridian]

39. This part is especially insulting to Kamarck.

SNIP...."This may explain why Kamarck is now trying to distance herself from Dean, just like Daalder and McEntee. She now argues that she "stopped just short of endorsing Dean"--not the impression one would get from the column she wrote last month pronouncing Dean "the strongest candidate against Bush that the Democrats have." But it may be that you really can't go home again. When I mentioned some of the derisive comments made by her New Democrat colleagues, she showed just how thoroughly she had internalized Dean's anti-establishment message. "That's stupid Washington bullshit," she said. And there was one other response she wanted to share with her erstwhile friends: "F*** 'em."

And especially insulting to Dean, saying that was his message.

[janx]

40. It's D.C. snobbery, MF.

These guys are just as overconfident as Chimpy's people are.

[IndianaGreen]

42. ABB is dead! It was killed by the DLC!

DLC wants purges? Fine!

[mzmolly]

115. THIS is exactly why we NEED a counter group to the DLC within the party!

"For the elected officials who endorsed Dean----it's hard to calculate whether there will be long-term costs. Some aggrieved colleagues suggest they have potentially damaged their reputations in the eyes of the DLC-friendly network of donors and perhaps could lose access to the p.r. services that the DLC performs by trumpeting politicians in its publications and conferences...."

[tobius]

35. dlc=dnc

=downward slide in democrat seats. macauliffe has the master plan.

[democracy eh]

38. somebody is F***ing with the grassroots today, big time

wwwaaaaaayyy to many potentially inflammatory and divisive 'news' stories floating about

someone is trying really, really hard to get Dean or his supporters to go 3rd party.

the the Freeper trolls are loving it.
but deep down the Repugs are scared

[janx]

47. They're not only F***ing with the grassroots. They're F***ing

with democracy.

It's that serious.

[madfloridian]

48. Well, let me count the ways.

First, I agree, you may be partially right....but only partially.

Look around and see who is backing off, way back. To their credit, many are not.

Now, there is a lot going down, and especially here in Florida there are going to be problems I fear.

The other day I posted how Maddox, the state Dem chair, had used GOP talking points against Dean in the NYT. He said Dean was angry and too liberal. Sound familiar? He said Kerry could easily carry Florida.

I know some DEC officers who have backed off their support of Dean, at least their overt support. They still do it quietly.

Isn't it a shame for any American not to be able to support their candidate openly?

[democracy eh]

58. I partially agree with you too

but mostly my head is spinning

the Matrix is unravelling

[NWHarkness]

43. Republican hacks yell "Boo!"

And people here run around in circles.

[seaglass]

46. And all we require is a paragraph from a blog! n/t

[Eloriel]

50. Madfloridian

Look for Hedda_Foil's post on the subject.

[madfloridian]

53. Just did. Very thorough.

Looks like Daalder is done....stick a fork in him. Thanks.

[Tinoire]

125. Eloriel- do you have a link to that? Or could you post the gist?

Thanks!

[madfloridian]

134. I posted the gist in my post 116 below. Daalder backs off.

It is about how Daalder formed Dean's foreign policy, sat beside him, supported him, and is now criticizing the very policy he helped to form.

If he formulated the policy, then backs off, he must be afraid of paying the price.

[Tinoire]

135. Thank you~! Urgh! What a HORRIBLE day for Progressives! n/t

[madfloridian]

136. You are welcome, Tinoire.

Yep, not a good day for progressives. Can you imagine formulating a policy, then having to back off and be critical. It would be funny if it weren't so sad. :(

[kerry-is-my-prez]

51. Happens in every campaign. It'll also happen to Clark,/Edwards supporters

(the players, anyways) unless they make amends. It happens after every election to those who supported the losers.

Why do you think that most big donors donate money to ALL of the candidates? Why do you think that most of the politicians wait until they're pretty sure that the candidate they support is going to win before they endorse someone?

[texasmom]

71. Of course you're right...

Thanks for the wake-up call/reminder.

The process isn't going to "play out" with the voters as many of us had dreamed, hopes will be crushed (as mine have been this week), but I trust we truly will all work to get rid of Bush in the end...

[John_H]

55. Sorry folks, this is how politics has worked since 9000 BC.

Think about it for a sec before professing shock and dismay. If Dean had won the Kerry people would have been in the same place and so on through all the possible permutations.

When any courtier (and that's exactly what political people are no matter what the system of government, get on the wrong side they get purged. The Greeks put them in small boats in the middle of the Mediterranean. Vikings sent them out onto the ice. Stalin sent them to Lubianka. Henry VII chopped their heads off. The mafia chops their legs off. Party functionaries in the US get comparatively nice treatment--they get sent to time out for a couple of years.

Politics is a game played by big girls and boys who know the rules before the game starts. If you're seriously shocked by this, you should turn off West Wing and come out and intern in the real DC.

[ibegurpard]

60. No deal

That's the way it works? Sorry. They're going to have to find another empty-headed "swing voter" to replace the vote of this previously hard-core Democratic supporter.

[John_H]

91. And after you prove your point, it will still work that way.

[janx]

62. Psssst! Nobody has WON yet.

There are still many primaries and caucuses to go.

Or am I living in a time warp?

[John_H]

90. Nobody's won, but Dean's lost. Sure, i'll take a bet.

[madfloridian]

65. John-H, we live in America, not Russia or Greece, etc.

I find your acceptance of this in our country very bothersome.

QUOTE"When any courtier (and that's exactly what political people are no matter what the system of government, get on the wrong side they get purged. The Greeks put them in small boats in the middle of the Mediterranean. Vikings sent them out onto the ice. Stalin sent them to Lubianka. Henry VII chopped their heads off. The mafia chops their legs off. Party functionaries in the US get comparatively nice treatment--they get sent to time out for a couple of years...."

Uh, we don't live there.

[John_H]

84. Did you read the last sentence of the quote? And guess what?

It's been that way in America for 200 years. The Republicans purged the Federalsists. The Johnson people purged the Kennedy people after 1964.

You may want America to be an historical anomaly, but it's not. Sorry.

[Eloriel]

68. No, that's not how it would have worked with a Dean nomination

Not at all. And that's precisely why we are supporting him. An END to Politics as Usual.

[John_H]

87. How would you know, Eloriel? Please tell us.

If you believe Dean wouldn't have replaced the Kerry DNCV people with his own if he won, you should take me up on my offer to come out to DC and see how the town has and always will work. I'll arrange for an internship.

[EXE619K]

72. Let's see....

"Bush won! get over it!"

Sounds like "politics as usual"....doesn't it?

[Larkspur]

121. Why does politics have to be this brutal?

So what if the Greeks, Romans, British, etc. tortured and executed those on the losing side. This is America. We're not to be the new Rome, right?

Purges also cost governments and countries valuable talent. Purges may be politically expedient in the sort term, but they can also backfire when the talent that could help out in the future is no longer there to provide assistance.

[Walt Starr]

59. That's a pretty damning article

I suspect Clark supporters would be in for some of the same if Clark does not endorse.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mbee]

67. They'll be the ones punished when the Dean people decide to stay`

home on election day. I told the DNC no money from me when they called tonight. I don't like the way the primary was a set-up for Kerry from the beginning.

[Eloriel]

69. Oh, DON"T stay home -- vote for Dean whether he's on the

ticket or not. That's what I'll be doing. I WILL be voting for Howard Dean in November.

[deutsey]

70. Fuck the "Party"

I'm leaving it...or it left me a long time ago.

Either way: So long, it's been good to know ya...

[stickdog]

73. This is what I've been saying from the beginning. Howard Dean wasn't

the problem -- the fact that Howard Dean allowed his supporters to think they actually had some form of electoral power other than simply voting for Tweedle Dee vs. Tweedle Dum was the problem!

Note that Dean's candidacy proved once and for all that it's not enough to complain about the corrupting influence of money in politics because the corporate media is an even BIGGER and MORE insidious enemy.

[DrFunkenstein]

79. I Say Punish Them - Their Egocentrism Knows No Bounds

Seriously, is there a conspiracy theory that people at DU don't believe in? I think this Washington-outsider thing is taken way too far. Although many don't want to hear it, Dean is just another candidate.

The victimhood thing is getting pretty tired very quickly. People seem to mistake political activism for martyrdom.

[w4rma]

81. Have fun funding your own campaign. Have fun losing the GE.

Have fun nurturing a 3rd party for 2006.

Stupid strategy, DrFunkenstein.

[DrFunkenstein]

94. It's Going To Be A Blast Lossing The GE

I'm not sure if you are allowed to post messages to other people at DU that aren't unambiguously positive, but I'll take "stupid strategy, DrFunkenstein" as a back-handed compliment from you. Thanks!

[w4rma]

100. It's a very stupid strategy to piss off Dean supporters

Dean folks have already shown that we'll put our money where our mouths are. We've already shown that we'll get out and talk to folks. It would be a drastically idiotic move for Kerry to tell us we aren't wanted.

I would rather have that money and footwork going to the Democratic Party than another political party.

[w4rma]

80. I'm bookmarking this and I'll be watching this situation extremely closely

It looks to me like Mr. Kerry is only interested in our money and votes.

[Julien Sorel]

93. Ah, but Mr. Dean now, he's different.

He's interested in your votes and your money. World of difference there!

[w4rma]

97. Ah, but Mr. Clark now, he's different.

He's interested in your votes and your money. World of difference there!

[Foswia]

95. As if Dean's people weren't calling for the same thing?

They wanted to replace the Wash Insiders. Sounds like a purge to me.

[w4rma]

98. If Kerry thinks he can win the GE without the help of Dean supporters.

He should go ahead and purge.

While I have been a strong supporter of Democratic politicians, having the folks who share my opinions purged from the decision making would put me in a position where I would have to oppose the idiot who carried out that plan in the GENERAL election.

I'd rather have a head on fight than one where I'm getting it in the back.

P.S. Dean never said he'd get rid of McAluffe, that was a Drudge smear. There is an official statement on the Dean blog.

[Rich Hunt]

128. now that's funny

God forbid we have a little democracy in Washington.

[Foswia]

140. So you admit Dean would have 'purged' too? Thats how power works [nt]

[madfloridian]

102. I now see this being advocated here.

That is sad. Most of us are sincere and lifelong Democrats. Our own state Democratic chair single-handedly has just about destroyed Dean's chances here with his remarks in the NYT.

I guess it is going on. Unity above all, months before the election.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

104. To the victor go the spoils

why would Kerry reward those who oppose him, instead of rewarding those who support him?

:wtf:

[stickdog]

105. Because he's a uniter, not a divider?

Oh, I forgot. To the spoiled goes the victory.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

110. Kerry should reward his opponents over his supporters?

:wtf:

[w4rma]

111. There will be no victory if he follows through with this plot. (n/t)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

122. So now running for President is a 'plot'?

:wtf:

[w4rma]

124. Nope. A statist purge would be a plot. Please, don't twist my words. (n/t)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

130. "A statist purge" Who needs to twist such hyperbole? lol

[littlejoe]

107. I do hope this is not the case.

[NashVegas]

109. First Four Paragraphs

With John Kerry cruising to victory, these are supposed to be healing days for Democrats, when they embrace old adversaries and apologize for vicious attacks launched during the primaries. But now that Howard Dean has fallen, some in Washington can't resist kicking the corpse one last time. Last week, I called Ivo Daalder, an alumnus of Bill Clinton's national security team, at his Brookings Institution office. And, while etiquette might dictate that Daalder lavish praise on the vanquished candidate, he spent our phone conversation critiquing Dean's foreign policy. In Daalder's view, the Vermont governor's positions on Iraq range from the facile--"bringing into one hundred thousand Muslim troops that don't exist"--to the self-destructive--"I didn't like that he criticized the senators who voted for the eighty-seven billion dollars. We can't get things right in Iraq without the funding."...


What makes this rebuke of Dean's foreign policy particularly odd is that Daalder was himself a primary architect of that policy. It was Daalder who helped draft the speech Dean delivered at the Pacific Council for International Policy last December, outlining his approach to national security. In foreign policy interviews Dean gave to The Washington Post and The New York Times a day before that speech, Daalder sat by the governor's side. Similarly, it was Daalder who presided over a question-and-answer session at the National Press Club, when the Dean campaign unveiled its foreign policy team. According to one of his Brookings colleagues, who watched a procession of high-powered Democrats traipse to Daalder's office to pay respect to Dean, "Ivo was The Guy."

In the wake of Dean's unraveling, however, Daalder is promoting a revisionist history of the campaign, where his status is downgraded to something significantly less than The Guy. "My position is that I'm happy to advise anyone." He pauses before adding, "I don't have a central role, and I never did."

Why is Daalder backpedaling so furiously? Because he understands that he could suffer payback for his Deaniac days. Dean, after all, famously took aim at Washington politicians, at one point referring to them as "cockroaches." And the feeling was largely mutual. Many in the Democratic Party establishment felt the Dean campaign represented the unmaking of Clinton's political legacy--a return to the days when the party failed to package its policies for mainstream consumption. Despite this, when Dean established himself as the front-runner, some Washington Democrats followed Al Gore's lead and jumped on people-powered Dean's bandwagon anyway. Thirty-five congressional Democrats endorsed him before Iowa--more than endorsed any other candidate--caucusing regularly at California Representative Zoe Lofgren's house. Similarly, several dozen pro-Dean lobbyists congregated weekly in the conference room of power law firm Hogan & Hartson. "You had a lot of people on K Street joining right before Iowa," says lobbyist Toby Moffett, a regular participant in the meetings. "They wanted to attach themselves to a winner."

[madfloridian]

116. Daalder plans Dean Foreign policy then condemns it to save own neck.

Did I get that right, basically?

:grr:

[mzmolly]

112. "Punish the Dean Heretics" pretty much says it all..

:(

[ibegurpard]

114. now do you understand?

eom

[mzmolly]

117. I always have....

The DLC wants to run leftists out of the Party. I don't want them to succeed. Do YOU understand ?

[mrgorth]

120. I'm just aghast

I suppose it's because I'm new to politics. WHen I came back here after a hiatus I found the Clark supporters much friendlier. Same from the Kerry people? Party unity? No. They wanted to rub the Deaniacs' noses in it. It's still going on. No big tent. Just revenge. Fine. I don't care what happens anymore. Let Bush win. Let Jeb win. Maybe after the pugs have turned the US into Mordor they'll realize how to do this. I hope I'm in Canada by then.

[Leilani]

137. I'm a Clark Supporter & I'm Still Friendly

I think the problem is that the Dean people have stars in their eyes, & maybe the Clark people are realists.

Look, I admire Dean & what he did to build a grassroots movement, & the fact that with his anger he gave a voice back to the Dem Party.

I supported Clark because he was also an outsider, it was grassroots, things would be done differently. He didn't owe anything to anyone.

But guess what? The Clark & Dean people lost. This was a bad year to be an outsider. The hatred of Bush is so strong that people swarmed to support Kerry because he had the whole package: experience, military bona fides, & a deep knowledge of the issues. If you look at Clark, Dean, & Edwards, they were all missing an ingredient, & the mass of voters out there didn't want to take a chance.

Am I happy about it? Hell no! But there can only be 1 winner. So you have to decide if you hate Bush or love Dean more. That's what it comes down to.

And to the victor goes the spoils. Kerry will be in charge, & he will decide who's on the outs & who's not. And that's the way it's done.

I've watched many, many elections & I've been disappointed many times. But it's up to you if you hold your nose & get on board, or if you sit this one out.

[batman]

126. Its Dean or die for me.

Im no longer a D unless the name next to it is Howard Dean - Im sickened by what Ive learned about Washington politics -

[w4rma]

127. It's not Washington politics, it's ALL politics.

Politics is war. Democracy is war with much much less violence. War often carries a set of rules (which tend to get bent and broken), and so does democracy (which also tends to get bent and broken). In the American Democratic-Republic we have a system of rules where the people have a shot at a, more-or-less, peaceful revolution every four years and mini-revolutions that go on much much more often.

If Kerry wins, as I currently expect him to, then I hope you'll vote and support him in the general, but more importantly I hope you'll get involved in the Democratic Party at the local level to fight in one of the many mini-revolutions going on around our country.

[wabeewoman]

133. Agreed w4rma

We may not control who gets the presidental election THIS year but if we don't give up (my state has an active Dean group who are going to continue meeting and trying to change 'business as usual.') we can change the democratic party. Its in our best interest to take this country back for the people. I will vote for Kerry but you can't convince me he isn't a Washington insider who will watch out for the people in power and not us voters. Kerry is part of the problem not the solution but he is so much better than bush that I wouldn't dream of sitting this one out.

[JVS]

138. GEphardt lost a primary back in the day and he wasn't purged

Things appear much more brutal today. I don't like this