"Intentional childlessness is avoiding responsibility"

[madfloridian]

Those are the words of the head of the Southern Baptist Seminary, Reverend Al Mohler. Those words have been turning themselves over in my mind today a lot...after witnessing some of the posts here lately. This is going to the extreme, and Al never used to be there. But he is now.

He is teaching many young ministers to lead churches. So where are we heading with all this? I have seen posts here today that see nothing at all wrong with forcing women to carry full term even at the risk of their health. The right wing has done a magnificent job of framing the issue, and our side has miserably failed.

From the vote in 2003 to put doctors in jail for up to two years...that bill was sanctified this week by the Supreme Court...to what? What is next? What part of a woman's life is going to be legislated next.

Al Mohler was never this extreme years ago. He evolved and is taking many young ministers along on his journey to control women. What next?

Mohler: Intentional childlessness is ‘avoiding responsibility’

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)--The increase in the number of married couples in the United States who are deciding not to have children is a disturbing trend that could have a long-term negative impact on society, R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said on CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360.”

Sometimes referring to themselves as “non-breeders,” these couples are intentional and sometimes militant in their resolve not to have children, with some of them saying they are showing advanced maturity by recognizing that children do not fit their lifestyle.

Mohler, however, said the trend is nothing more than a disturbing commitment to perpetual adolescence. Raising children is part of becoming an adult, he said on the CNN broadcast’s Dec. 15 edition.

“Parenthood is a part of helping to create adults,” Mohler said. “We grow up by having children. Without that responsibility, we have a generation of perpetual adolescents just growing old.... This is really about avoiding responsibility and I find that tremendously sad.

Al is now getting into the area of birth control. He says it is wrong.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/113

"The effective separation of sex from procreation may be one of the most important defining marks of our age--and one of the most ominous. This awareness is spreading among American evangelicals, and it threatens to set loose a firestorm.

..."Thus, in an ironic turn, American evangelicals are rethinking birth control even as a majority of the nation's Roman Catholics indicate a rejection of their Church's teaching. How should evangelicals think about the birth control question?

..."First, we must start with a rejection of the contraceptive mentality that sees pregnancy and children as impositions to be avoided rather than as gifts to be received, loved, and nurtured. This contraceptive mentality is an insidious attack upon God's glory in creation, and the Creator's gift of procreation to the married couple."

This is one of the largest congregations in the South. They are not going to give up on this issue of controlling women and controlling private lives.

[uppityperson]

1. One of my theories is that the non-intellectuals are going to over breed the intellectuals.

For lack of a less pejorative term, intellectuals/nonintellectuals.
1 of my theories is that the Non-i's are out breeding the I's and dumbing down the overall intelligence of humanity. Sort of de-evolution. Just a theory and I know it is thinking in big groups which don't go that way individually (disclaimer).

[loyalsister]

6. There's an answer to that.

Read up on forced sterilization and negative eugenics.
The Rockefellers and Carnegies were big supporters.

[jeff30997]

15. Weird! look at post # 7...

H.G. Wells was a big eugenics fan.

[loyalsister]

18. So was Oliver Wendell Holmes

These ideas being kicked around are pretty ancient.

On May 2, 1927, in an 8-1 decision, the Court accepted that she, her mother and her daughter were "feeble-minded" and "promiscuous," and that it was in the state's interest to have her sterilized. The ruling legitimized Virginia's sterilization procedures until they were repealed in 1974.

The ruling was written by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.. In support of his argument that the interest of the states in a "pure" gene pool outweighed the interest of individuals in their bodily integrity, he argued:

"We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

[Sequoia]

64. "Three generations of imbeciles are enough."

Yes, that Bush family!

[Malidictus Maximus]

67. Ol' Prescott was far from an imbecile

A Nazi sympathizer, corrupt and evil, yes, but no dummy. Further proof of regression towards the mean.

[Captain Angry]

7. I understand there's a movie about that.

Idiocracy. I haven't seen it yet, but from what I've read it's on target with your concerns.

One of the movies that made an impression on me was The Time Machine, the one done in 1960.

I'll never forget the people in their bliss, sunbathing, playing. One of their friends falls into the river, and well, tough shit. They don't know anything, they can't do anything.

And then the air raid sirens are heard, and they all march to be eaten.

We're heading there, I agree. All the knowledge available these days, and it's scorned. You get tagged with "Elite" if you are able form complete sentences anymore.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

20. Read up on "regression towards the mean".

Simply put, it means that stupid people tend to have kids slightly smarter than them, and people who are smart tend to have kids slightly stupider than them. In large statistically significant groups.

In my own experience, smart people tend to have smart kids.


"Idiocracy" is a hilarious movie that makes you think. No wonder 20th century Fox wouldn't promote it as it makes the Fox News division look like idiots. Mike Judge makes plenty of money for them with "King of the Hill".

[Celeborn Skywalker]

21. Nope

It's usually related to class, not intelligence. The middle and upper classes traditionally have much fewer kids than the working and lower classes.

[Le Taz Hot]

26. Agreed.

Please see my sig. line.

[Arugula Latte]

50. Fundies and Mormons and hardcore Catholics have the most kids, generally.

Does not bode well for this country, IMO.

[rodeodance]

58. Islamic countries are grwoing faster thatn otheres i believe

[Big Pappa]

2. Being childless gives you so much

freedom, but having children is such a reward. Look having children is personnel and I wish it would stay that way.

[madfloridian]

3. I have a lot of them, but I was not forced to do so.

I resent the direction this country is heading.

[Telly Savalas]

75. What direction is the country heading?

The American public rejected the far-right agenda last November in the voting booth.

Is it the case that douchebags like this guy are getting more power, or is it the case that cable TV producers are getting more cynical and believe that broadcasting such freakshows making an asses of themselves gets better ratings than rational discourse?

[Kool Kitty]

4. And this is exactly where this whole mess is headed.

Denying birth control. Jesus, this is one of the main criticisms that the people in the World Bank have about Wolfowitz-cutting all talk about family planning. Gotta keep women barefoot and pregnant, not worrying our pretty little heads about anything else-worrying about anything else is men's work.

You're right-this is about controlling women. (And these fundies should be the LAST ones to condemn recreational sex-they sure seem to have a lot of it.)

[aquart]

13. Remember Romania.

And what happened to those babies.

[Kool Kitty]

14. Yes.

:cry:

[paparush]

40. Ding Ding Ding! Controlling Women.

"church" has been doing that for thousands of years...

Women starting to question authority? Heck, label them as 'witches' and burn a couple thousand alive. That will keep the rest quiet for a while. And it goes on and on and on....

[truedelphi]

44. World Bank and Wolfowitz

Wolfowitz-cutting all talk about family planning.

There is a drug that stops the type of hemorrhage that occurs during childbirth.

Forces like Wolfowitz who represent the "godly" Christian right have prevented this drug from being shipped to many third world nations - because the drug can also induce abortion if used early in pregnancy.

As a result, many women die needlessly in child birth.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. He's wrong, but he touches on an interesting point - perpetual adolescence.

I just read a fascinating book; "sibling society".

The author's premise is that in the absence of a shared responsibility to hold those above us to account (or even recognizing that they have power over us) or in recognizing that those less fortunate than us are worth attention, we remain in prolonged adolescence - squabbling with siblings, ignoring those below us and pretending that those above us don't exist.

Raising children isn't something one does to grow up, it's a choice that people make when they feel that they have grown up.

The author makes a good case that people no longer grow up.

[MadHound]

60. Oh please, stop with the happy horseshit

I've known way too many people who've had children when even they knew they weren't grown up. And yet some of the most mature people I've known haven't had children, by choice.

And gee, my "prolonged adolescence" ended when I was eighteen, out of the house and had to take care of myself.

Having children isn't some rite of passage, it is a serious decision, and nobody should be demonized for that decision, one way or the other. The fact that you are agreeing with this person says a lot about your own character and maturity. How dare you judge others in such a manner!

[Telly Savalas]

76. Amen.

[twenty4blackbirds]

8. In a world of limited resources...

choosing not to have your own children makes sense. This means there are more resources (land, water, food, etc) for your nephew/niece/non-biological children.

You do not have to have your own children in order to care for the welfare of others.

You do need to care for other people in order to care for your own children.

Essentially, Albert Mohler Jr is a very selfish person and what he says is a reflection of himself, not what other people are in Reality.

Reality has a left-wing bias.

[Lasher]

80. I agree. Do you find yourself resenting those who have a lot of children?

I do. Some people make what to them is a sacrifice by having no children or having only 2 or 3, but just one bonehead couple can render this meaningless by cranking out a brood of 12 or so. It's insane to promote forbearance of birth control. We are lemmings.

[loyalsister]

9. "we grow up by having children"

What a disturbing thing to say!
Maybe I'm "old fashioned," but somehow I have also considered parenting to be a job for individuals whose oats were sown.

[Demeter]

34. Tell THAT To My Ex!

He is 52 going on 15.

[maggiegault]

37. Has he never seen an episode of Judge Judy?

[John Q. Citizen]

10. Next they will be prosecuting male masturbation as petty murder....

They put these whack jobs on TV and Kucinich can barely get air time.

The media is the problem.

[madfloridian]

22. Baptists consider masturbation a sin.

The old joke was it might lead to dancing. yuck.

They really do think it's sinful

[Bake]

38. Why don't Baptists make love standing up?

They're afraid someone will think they're dancing!

nyuk nyuk

Bake

[tblue]

11. So forcing people who don't want children to have them anyway does what exactly to benefit society?

Other than punishing women for being sexual beings.

[caligirl]

12. I respect a person alot who is capable of self analysis to the point

of choosing not to have kids in todays world. In my view someone so mature as to ask themselves questions requiring deep thought on the difficulties of raising kids today is the person who should be a parent. Not everyone needs or should be a parent, deep thinkers are probably odds on favorites for better ones.

[kineneb]

16. dipwad apparently never heard of genetic diseases

I am the third generation (that I know of) to suffer with clinical depression. Great-grandmother was a suicide. I do not have children, nor did I want them, given my family's medical history. I think I was being quite responsible.

What an authoritarian jerk.

[Hersheygirl]

49. Exactly,

My husband has CMT, a form of MD that is hereditary. The doctors cautioned us about having children. Since I was married before and was widowed, he adopted the two youngest children and raised them as his own. Otherwise we would not have had any children, because the only way to eradicate the disease he has is not to have children.

Now some may think that is selfish, but I could not bear to see a child suffer the way my husband has; he has since lost a foot because of ulcers that develope, sort of like what happens to diabetics.

[ninkasi]

17. I have three children

My older son and my daughter-in-law have one child of 13. My younger son, while not married, has been in a stable relationship for several years, and he and his girlfriend probably won't have children. My youngest, my daughter, and my son-in-law, don't want children. I respect each of my children's choices.

My younger son says that the world is already over-populated, and he and my daughter lavish their love on their niece and nephewsx, and on their two married cousin's children, their second-cousins. My great-nephews are like grandsons to me, so we can all indulge in spoiling the children of their family, whether they are sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, or younger cousins. It works for us.

[AtomicKitten]

19. my best friend had a tubal ligation at the age of 22

She knew early on she didn't want children although she was a doting "auntie" to mine. She ended up marrying a Cal Tech prof 20 years her senior and 21 years later she remains deliciously happy. I always admired her for knowing herself well enough particularly at such a young age to make that life-altering decision.

[Greyhound]

23. As do I, and I don't even know her.

As far back as I can remember, I've always known that I don't want children, and have acted accordingly (it may well have saved my life in the 80's when AIDS was still barely known). I've also been fortunate enough to have met many women that shared my view and we have therefore shared our lives.

[Apollo11]

30. Polygamy without the kids?

Sounds kinda interesting ... ;-)

[Greyhound]

48. Serial monogamist.

Well, there was one brief exception, but that's another story.

Peace

[LWolf]

24. Intentional childlessness is the pinnacle of responsible choice.

With 6+ billion people plaguing the earth like a swarm of locusts, there is no need to increase, or even maintain numbers.

Having spent the last 2 1/2 decades working with other people's children, and dealing with the damage done by people who don't really want to parent, but want kids to somehow fill their own emotional holes, I can truly say that people who don't want to be parents, SHOULDN'T.

It's a responsible, ethical choice to remain childless. Why not leave it to those who really want to be with children 24/7, who really do a good job nurturing and teaching them, and who are "present" enough in their children's lives to raise ethical, responsible, thinking people?

[Vinca]

25. What if you're not especially fond of kids? As a non-breeder of

long standing, I can't think of anything more tragic than a couple who doesn't really like children having them. Children are too important to be used as stage props or window dressing.

[Marnieworld]

52. or an obligation

Can you imagine being the child of parents who didn't like kids, didn't want them, really thought they'd be happier without them, yet had them because they were obligated to be "responsible"? To have a child because your religion obligates you to that life regardless of your personal feelings? I know I wouldn't want to be that kid.

The only way to be a mature responsible adult is to have a child? Anything else you are a selfish perpetual adolescent? Your marriage is a sham because it is not fulfilling its only purpose? Hooey.

I'm glad that I thought things through and made the right choice for me. I think I made the most loving of choices for the children that shouldn't be mine. But according to this man I am selfish and immature. I can find many a parent that fits that description but I will always have to defend myself.

This all comes from fear of losing control of women. If women can have equal lives as men, if we can remove all of the roles we play in the home and in the work world then how can men maintain the majority of power? This is why the same groups resist gay marriage (besides their general bigotry). If the genders of the partners are the same then how is the power divided? They can't conceive of marriage without strict roles defined. They do not want to let that go.

Too bad for them though because more women will make this choice and gay people will continue forming partnerships as the label affixed to these partnerships evolves towards equality.

So I shrug off this criticism because I know that I have won for myself and that they will lose in the long run overall.

[B3Nut]

86. That describes us.

We're not crazy about the idea of reproducing, so right after we were married I got snipped (I didn't want my wife on BC due to the potential harmful side effects, I preferred a vasectomy to exposing her to unneeded health risk.) We have a 6 year-old niece we borrow and spoil, and a baby nephew now as well. That's enough, we don't need to add to the number of mouths to feed in this world.

Oh, and Rev. Mohler: would you please be so kind as to kiss my ass? Thank you.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[qwlauren35]

27. I don't completely disagree.

I am convinced that adults who choose not to find ways to get involved with raising our nation's children are shirking an innate responsibility.

However, I don't believe that this requires them to be parents themselves. There are many ways to get involved without being parents. Being good aunts and uncles, spending quality time with nieces and nephews, and helping parents out with babysitting is important. Considering Big Brother/Sister programs, getting involved with Scouts, 4H, Boys and Girls Clubs, taking time out from work to talk to kids in school about careers, these all ways to get more involved. I knew a guy who used to take a group of inner-city kids camping every summer. He has no kids, but the found ways to be involved in the lives of children. I have no children, but I participate in Scouting and Sunday School.

Parents are feeling incredibly overburdened, and too many are cracking under the pressure. Too often, we are so busy scorning them for reproducing, that we feel no compassion toward them or their children. We turn our backs on them and then wonder why society is crumbling before our eyes. These are the next generation of VOTERS. The next generation of care-takers for the elderly. The next generation of the US workforce.

I stand by the statement that we have a responsibility to be involved in the lives of America's children. Reproduction isn't required, but giving time and energy to children is.

[maggiegault]

36. Don't Make The Common Mistake Of Assuming That Childfree People Do Not Have Children In Their Lives

The spouse and I have none of our own, but we are an influential, loving aunt and uncle to four great kids.

Have you ever noticed that it is other parents who lack compassion, a lot of the time? It's this I, Me, Mine mentality that just slays me.

I meant a rhetorical "you" in all of this, not you in particular, by the way.:patriot:

[Malidictus Maximus]

56. And I'll stand by my statement that anyone who actually

believes this is a danger to the planet on the scale of Karl Rove.

Some of us just don't like kids. I don't care for the sound of them, I don't like 'childlike' things, I couldn't WAIT to be an adult. If there was never another cartoon made, nor a toy sold I would not be sad. I would really prefer if the population of the planet was a few million. You like kids, YOU have 'em, entertain 'em and wrap your lives around them, to me they are a symptom of the disease called man that infects the planet.

[slampoet]

28. Most of my generation is so poor that they need to live in threesomes just to afford ONE kid.

How is family values going to contend with this?

[Apollo11]

31. Again with the polygamy?

How do these threesomes work exactly?

One wife looks after the babies while the other one goes out to work? :eyes:

[slampoet]

62. Both biological parents need to take on a roomate who also becomes part time babysitter .......

....and eventually a nurturing figure.

Sometimes these are gay friends, Sometimes a grandmother, aunt, or single parent.

BTW non-women have been taking care of children for three generations now. And non-wives have always been part of the child raising process.

Do you know anyone under 30??

[marmar]

29. The Rev. should avoid making "intentionally assinine statements and sounding like a jackass"

Not everyone wants children or would make a good parent.

[tigereye]

32. all I can say is

:banghead:

I really can't understand how folks can think like this...

[Demeter]

35. Never Call That Thinking! It Surely Isn't!

Propaganda is like commercial advertising, only worse.

[tigereye]

45. well, it is thinking, just not very complex thinking!

:)

[Demeter]

46. Heating a Microwave Dinner Isn't Cooking, Either

[raccoon]

33. Did I wake up in Nazi Germany this morning? nt

[Bake]

39. Al was never this extreme years ago? Yes, he was.

I graduated from THE Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (M.Div. 1979), and that was back in the days when Duke McCall was president of SBTS, and later, Roy Lee Honeycutt. They were statesmen of the denomination compared to Mohler, who has always been an extremist.

The first thing Mohler did as president was purge the remaining "liberal" scholars from the faculty -- those who hadn't already read the handwriting on the wall and left of their own volition.

It's a shame what Mohler and his crew did to our seminary. In fact, it's a shame what he and his kind did to the Southern Baptist Convention.

Bake

[madfloridian]

41. Thanks for that.

I knew him years before that. He and his family were very different then. I think Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson got hold of his soul.

He was part of the hijacking.

[Bake]

43. Mohler is a good bit more vocal now

Since he is now considered one of the established "leaders" of the SBC, and since he has more of a platform now, Mohler has been a good bit more vocal in his extremism. But I think it's always been there.

Bake

[Malidictus Maximus]

57. The problem with Baptists

is that they don't hold 'em down long enough:-)

[madfloridian]

59. LOL

:rofl:

I should not laugh at that, but since I am a recovering Southern Baptist...it's ok. Been there done that almost gagged.

[Sequoia]

63. In the water!

[Mend]

42. Rev. Al, you have convinced me.....

Come on over and let's get it on....your fat white pasty face is so karl rove....all those porky piggy repuke babies we could make....and with your genes, they would be so selfish, sexist, homophobic....it makes me all tingly just thinking about the new world order.

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

47. The term is "child-free" not childlessness...

- O.K., when I was pregnant, single, broke with no degree, where was Mohler?
- When I went from lawyer to lawyer, trying to find one who would set up an open adoption, where was Mohler? (For the record, it took visits to 7 attorneys before I found one who would agree to handle the case)
- When I was searching for good birth parents for my son, where was Mohler?
- While I was pregnant and trying to eat well for good prenatal care (despite having no food in the house), where was Mohler?
- When the State put me on camera and grilled me for more than two hours about my decision to adopt out my son, where was Mohler?

It's really easy for these types to sit back and throw stones, but you never see an evangelical stepping up to make adoption easier by helping the birth moms while they're pregnant. I know, as my own father is/was a southern baptist and believes the bull that Mohler is spewing. But did he or the congregation step up to help? Nope. Not one damned dime from any of them. My own stepmother spoke for the congregation loud and clear: "What you're doing (the adoption) - well, it's just not Christian!"

Well, unless the Bible has a typo - Moses was adopted, right?

I went through with it (the open adoption) anyway, and it was the best decision I could have made for my son. Put him in a healthy environment, away from the clutches of idiots like Mohler, who claim they are people of God, but never do anything to put their money where their mouths are.

Making this decision was the most mature thing I ever did. Being able to put the needs of others ahead of yourself is the true gauge of maturity, not how many babies you've got at home.

Mohler, if you're not planning on doing anything constructive to help the Moms or the kids, then STFU, for you know not what you speak of!
Hypocrite...

Count me as "Childfree by Choice!" - and happy about my life!

[catrose]

65. another Biblical typo

According to popular Christian belief, Jesus wasn't Joseph's son, but Joseph raised him. According to Catholic belief, he and Mary did not have children. Was that irresponsible? St. Paul thought it better that people not marry--and certainly not have kids. Was that irresponsible. St. Peter was married, but we don't hear about any kids.

It's so confusing.

[mnhtnbb]

51. Margaret Atwood's book, "The Handmaid's Tale", is looking more prophetic

all the time.

[yardwork]

53. If Roe v Wade goes down, so does the right to contraception

Contraception was illegal in CT and other states before a mid-1960s Supreme Court decision that is based on the same reasoning as their decision in Roe v Wade.

That means that we are close to losing the right contraception in this country. Please pay attention.

[Malidictus Maximus]

54. What a stupid son of a bitch.

Anyone who doesn't think this knucklehead is a moron should be sterilized, or at least not ever allowed near a voting machine.

ChildFREE (*NOT* childless), and proud of it.

[rodeodance]

55. “We grow up by having children...."-----OUT of our bedrooms Mr. Rev.

[renie408]

61. Having children was the most growth producing, important thing that has ever happened to me.

But that's ME. I know plenty of people who don't feel that way. I used to try to 'sell' having kids to people who said they wouldn't. But then I grew up and realized that this is a very personal thing and people know themselves better than I do.

[Sapere aude]

69. My wife and I don't have kids. People have said all kinds of thing to us but the best one was

a co-worker, when I told her we don't have kids she said,"Well what about her parents?" I said, "They are still young enough to have more kids." As if making grandchildren was a good reason to have kids.

[MasonJar]

66. Believe me (since I live in Louisville)! This freak is a perfect advertisement

for abortion. He is an embarrassment to the Baptists and certainly to the rest of us. I especially abhor self-righteous men who will never have to carry a baby telling women what to do.

[joshcryer]

68. I agree with him! If us responsible people don't start having kids...

...Idiocracy can become a reality!

In all seriousness, intelligent people hold off having children because they *are* responsible, not the other way around. It is irresponsible to bring a child into a world without a stable finanical and emotional situation.

But I do support intelligent people having lots and lots of babies. It only makes sense. :D

[Karenina]

71. INTELLIGENT people, in this day and age

generally tend to reflect on their economic means, the environment into which a child would be born and their personal circumstances. The result is smaller families.

[azmouse]

70. I don't dislike kids but I can happily live my life without them around me.

I'm infertile so I didn't really have a choice whether to have kids or not. The pressure to have children was definitely there... from the moment I got married 20 yrs ago it seemed the question everyone would ask was 'when are you going to have kids?'. When we didn't have them then it became 'why don't you have kids?'.
Why can't people just leave others alone to make the choices that are best for them?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

72. ,I kinda like being the uncle who brings over the loud toys that use lots of batteries

but I can't see children being part of my life, I just don't have the energy.

[xxqqqzme]

73. hey, mohler - it is NONE of

your f*cking business how many children anybody does or does not have.

[yellowcanine]

74. "Raising children is part of becoming an adult".

“We grow up by having children."

So is this guy recommending that teenagers have children so that they grow up faster?

Do these fundies even think before they open their mouths?

What a moran. My take on this is what he is really afraid of is independent women who are not tied down by children.

[booley]

77. So..does this apply to gay people?

First, Kudos to those that are Child Free. The Decision to raise kids is not to be taken lightly and so many children have been concieved by people who really should not have been al;lowed to be even near children, much less be resposnable for them.

Alas, those kinds of people aren't likely to decide to be child free.

However, I do want kids. Have always wanted kids. I have been working to get into a a position where I can take care of them.

And I am waaay Gay.

So you gotta wonder what this guy would say to me.

Actually I don't wonder. I know he would sputter and back track and say that what he said before doesn't apply to gay people.

[madfloridian]

79. Well, let's just say....

Al has recently gone even further to the dark side. He thinks some kind of hormonal treatment in the womb would cure that.

He makes me sick, he really does. He was nice little kid. I think the devil got hold of him in the guise of the lord.

[Canuckistanian]

78. More racist crap

He's arguing that white people should have more babies to counter the MUCH higher birthrate of immigrant families.

Just read between the lines.

[depakid]

81. This is clearly a sick and twisted individual

It's sad, but not in the least bit surprising that so many Southerners get taken in by trash like this.

Memo to Southerners: WHEN the Supreme Court overturns Griswold v. Connecticut- the case providing the basis for Roe v. Wade (and they will, once the right facts come up) some of you, depending on what state you're in, will face major restrictions on contraceptives.

With no federal right to privacy and reproductive freedom, there'll be nothing to prevent the fundamentalist majorities (the same folks who criminalize the sale of dildos) from banning, say, "the pill" outright- or putting age or marriage limitations on it.

If anyone thinks that certain states won't do that, then I suggest you read the OP again.

[Triana]

82. Is it just me or does that guy look "blissfully deranged"?

Is that him, in the picture?

I saw this coming, years ago when I got a tubal. I never wanted kids and was NOT going to be forced. Men trying to control women, their lives, and their bodies. Thank GAWWWWD I'm now too old to worry about it, too.

NEWSFLASH:

THIS PLANET IS AT ITS BREAKING POINT

OVERPOPULATION IS THE CRUX OF THIS PROBLEM

HAVING CHILDREN adds to the stress already on it.

IT IS IMMORAL to have a lot of children in this day and age. We're DESTROYING OUR HOME. We're DESTROYING OUR SELVES.

WE

DON'T

HAVE

ANYWHERE

ELSE

TO

LIVE

BREEDING in this situation IS IMMORAL and overrides Mr. Blissfully Deranged's contention that women belong perpetually pregnant and barefoot. NOT TO MENTION that trying to CONTROL other people indicates that the person trying to wield that control may suffer from MENTAL ILLNESS. THIS MEANS *YOU* Mr. Blissfully Deranged!

GAWWWWWWWD did NOT say "procreate until you destroy the planet".

Sorry. But SHE didn't.

GO TO HELL, Al!

Literally.

[prairierose]

83. In about 1969, I read the book...

The Population Bomb by Paul Ehrlich in which he discussed the growing world population and its future consequences. The world population at that time was 3.63 billion. Today,world population is about 12.6 billion and the negative consequences of that overpopulation are coming home to roost.

I decided at that time, that I would, at the most, have 2 children (ZPG=zero population growth). I later decided that there were so many irresponsible people in the world having too many children, that it was more responsible to have no children.

This guy is an idiot. There are two ideas behind this kind of non-thinking. One is to out-breed the educated people who,responsibly, have fewer children. The other is to control women by keeping them barefoot and pregnant. It is old thinking, left over from the 1950's or before. This kind of talk is beyond irresponsible.

[Triana]

84. So well put, prarierose, particularly this:

"This guy is an idiot. There are two ideas behind this kind of non-thinking. One is to out-breed the educated people who,responsibly, have fewer children. The other is to control women by keeping them barefoot and pregnant. It is old thinking, left over from the 1950's or before. This kind of talk is beyond irresponsible."

It's IMMORAL, what he's suggesting. I think the guy is mentally disturbed.

[formercia]

85. For those who haven't heard it already:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=276680&mesg_id=276807

Frank Shakespeare is a member of the CNP and a Knight of Malta, for those who don't already know.

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1998-11-12/introduction.html

INTRODUCTION

THE WORLD IN 2050

by Hon. Frank Shakespeare

Hon. Frank Shakespeare is the former U.S. ambassador to the Vatican. This address was delivered at the 1996 Wanderer Forum in Washington, D.C.

--snip--

A thought about Islam: Something tragic is happening in Western Europe, which was traditionally Chris tendom. It is almost never spoken about, it’s only very rarely referred to, but it seems to me to be of staggering importance. And when I say it you will say, "Well, that’s too dramatic a phrase." It’s not meant to be dramatic. It’s meant to be an exact description of the truth. And it’s this. Europe is committing suicide. What do I mean by that? Europe has a birth rate which is simply suicidal. For example, it takes 2.1 babies per woman in a nation, in a society, to keep the population even, if you exclude immigration and emigration. The birthrate in Spain is the lowest in the entire world. It is 1.2. The birthrate in Italy is the second lowest in the entire world. It is 1.3. We tend to think of a big fat Italian mama with ten bambinos, because that’s the way it used to be 50 years ago. Well it isn’t. Italy is dying. Spain is dying. Two of the most Catholic countries in the world. Why? That’s for people much wiser than I am to grope with. France is 1.4. Germany is 1.3. If you take the 15 countries that constitute the Euro pean Union, that constitute Chris tendom in the historical sense, the birthrate is 1.5. Right across the Mediterranean, directly across the Mediterranean, in the Muslim countries and in black Africa and in India, the birth rate is 3.7 to over 4. That is a staggering situation. What does it mean? What it means is very clear. In the lives of our grandchildren, or maybe our great-grandchildren, but in just a moment in history, you’ll look at a map and see a big structure that looks like a boot and it will stick down into the Medi terranean and it will say on it "Italy." But it won’t have Italians in it! It will have people who come from Libya, be cause Italy has a special relationship with Libya in the past, and people who will come from Turkey because they need work. 28 years ago there wasn’t one single mosque in Rome. When I left there 4 years ago there were over 200. In Rome! Now many of those are storefronts. But one of them is one of the biggest, most modern mos ques in all the world. In Italy! And what are the Ital ians doing? They have the second lowest birthrate in all the world. I do not know Islam. I haven’t studied it. But Islam has been re-animated in our time. After its enormous vitality three to four centuries ago, when these great battles took place, it sort of went to sleep. And in our lifetime, in the last 40 to 50 years, it has been re-animated. In many ways it’s been re-animated as an idea. Islamic fundamentalism is the governing mode in such countries as Iraq, and in Syria, and in Sudan, and in Algeria, and Iran. It has just taken over Af ghan istan. An Is lamic leader has just been elected the Prime Minister of Turkey.

Who is to know where Islam is going? It would be a man wiser and more educated than myself. But it is an enormous question. Clearly there have been two elements which have played some role in it. There has been an insertion of two new things into that world in our lifetimes. One is oil, and the other is Israel. In any event, in all of that mix, you have a resurgent Islam, you have the huge money of oil, you have the fervor of belief, and of course you have something far more than just the Arab world. Islam runs down through Pak istan, and South east Asia and India. Muslims are 80% of the population in Indonesia, one of the largest countries in the world. And the struggle in our time for the soul of Africa is the struggle between Islam and Chris tianity. So in the year 2050, what is Islam?

--snip--

Sympathy for the Devil

Please allow me to introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
Ive been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
I stuck around st. petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
cause Im in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or Ill lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me baby, whats my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, whats my name
I tell you one time, youre to blame
Rolling Stones

[provis99]

87. so what happens if us liberals take his arguments to heart, and start breeding like rabbits?

Just imagine how fast the fundamentalist dope would turn around. "Damn! There's too many liberals being born and raised! God has told me to change my mind! Everyone stop breeding!"