DU capitulates to politics as usual (Kerry)

[JackRiddler]

What happened to this place?

It was founded because of a coup d'etat, more specifically because the Democratic leadership went supine and legitimated it. It's called an "underground." In the aftermath of 9/11, it was instrumental in the electronic research movement that questioned the official story. The vast majority here fought against the invasion of Iraq and against the new police state. By now, apparently, they believe 9/11 was an inside job.

But within a few weeks, most fell for the "electability" sabotage meme with which the progressives were marginalized. In the meantime they seem to have convinced themselves that Kerry in any way bespeaks their political goal.

I don't care about his affairs; that he is sexually active is one of the best things I've heard about him. If it turns out that he sent an intern into exile, that's a bad thing, but so far I'm underwhelmed by the accusations and fairly well convinced they will backfire on the accusers. Americans are sick of this form of prudish sexual politicking, and they showed that during the impeachment.

But this guy voted for USA PATRIOT and IWR, not to mention Plan Colombia and Homeland Security. He mocked and attacked Dean for suggesting Bush might have known about 9/11. He knows about 9/11, of course, he's got Cleland on his team, but he's helping to keep it under wraps.

He's spent his Senate career gathering dirt on the Bush Mob (investigations into October Surprise, BCCI, CIA-cocaine, marrying Theresa) and doing NOTHING with it. It's apparently little more than his blackmail insurance for a presidential run. He's in a policy think-tank that supports a progressive "humanitarian" version of the PNAC program. He's telling the antiwar crowd to "get over it."

And where he never got more than 10 percent in a DU poll before Iowa, now you give him 55 percent and more. Why? Because you follow along with the leader like good little sheep.

Everyone wants to be with the winner, even if he's going to continue the Bush program. Hell, Kerry may end up worse, because he will have the apparent legitimacy and intellectual talent to legitimate the conquest of Iraq and put a human face on the dictatorship of PATRIOTism.

No doubt he's the perfect man to seize more oil-rich countries, and this time to tell Americans, "Hell yeah, it is because of the oil. You want unstable regimes in charge of that?"

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. "the perfect man to seize more oil-rich countries" or if you're too lazy

to type all that, "electable"

[corporatewhore]

2. YTheydont care that he will give our jobs away and approves of slavery

via free trade

[anti-NAFTA]

15. A-freaking-men.

Kerry is a who knows how to say the right things to the right people. A tried and true politician who will inspire widespread vote-abstinence in November. How is he going to convince people to vote for him? The AWOL stories and his service will only go so far until the issues come up, and this man voted YES on numerous trade expansions and on the IWR. All Bush and Rove have to do is say, "Hey, dude; you agreed with me then. Quit playing politics. You know I'm a great 'wartime president.'" And that's if Bush plays nice.

Someone who calls Dean, of all people, a "protectionist" can only be insensitive to the plight of the American worker.

[AngryYoungMan]

3. Respectfully, I think you're confusing two things.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but my sense of the current policial landscape involves a slightly different meaning of "electability" than is usually employed.

Generally, "electability" means "whom do the majority of the voters want."

2000 (at least in my mind) changed all that. A person the voters did not prefer ended up as President. He had all kinds of black marks against him (and kept accumulating more) but it didn't make any difference. For example, here we are FOUR YEARS LATER finally looking at his military record.

To whatever extent elections are "controlled from above," we are vulnerable. We are vulnerable because Wall Street types and big-name newspaper editors and corporate donors control how the candidates are perceived.

Therefore it's a whole new landscape, different even than what we faced in the '90s. You can lose three limbs in the jungles of Vietnam and not get elected. You can be a decorated vet and be beaten by a draft-dodger. You can have a sterling record as VP and be defeated by a man who screwed up his term as Governor.

Kerry is acceptable to certain powerful people in a way that Dean never would be. Therefore, Kerry is a viable candidate ("electable") because he can't be Dukakised or McGoverned or Mondaled (or Doled, for that matter.)

If you want to pretend we're still living in a world where the voters decide whom the candidates are, be my guest. But the best way to insure that that scenario comes about is to GET BUSH OUT, which at this stage in U.S. history cannot be done without Wall Street etc. turning against Bush. They won't do that if Dean's the candidate.

"Electability" therefore means "corporate viability." I don't like it either, but that's the way the world is now. "Anybody But Bush" means exactly that. If you want to pretend that Dean could get nominated and elected simply because more voters like him, you're dreaming. Not in Bush's America. Maybe in the fantasy world existing in Nader's mind, but not in real life.

[CWebster]

46. but he might be "Clintonized"

"Kerry is acceptable to certain powerful people in a way that Dean never would be. Therefore, Kerry is a viable candidate ("electable") because he can't be Dukakised or McGoverned or Mondaled (or Doled, for that matter.)"

[Merlin]

4. Some of us recognize the value of winning elections.

I've been around the block plenty of times before. It's not at all unusual to find that the bearer of the more progressive messages is flawed in the view of the masses. Welcome to the world.

Politics is not about getting your way all the time. Politics is, as JFK noted, the Art of the Possible.

I'm disappointed, too, with Cousin Howard's downfall. He would have been terrific, imo. But he had some built-in flaws. Thankfully, a reasonably progressive alternative was in place.

Kerry is definitely my second choice. But that's ok with me. And if Kerry goes down, and I have to go to Clark or even Edwards, I'll do it. Why? Because this is the most important election in my lifetime. And I'm 60 years old! The future of the world depends on deposing this current administration. Howard can try again in '12.

You can't always get what you want. You can't always get what you want. You can't always get what you want. But, if you try, sometimes, you get what you need.

[DuctapeFatwa]

7. Here's a site that outlines what you prize very simply

http://www.strike-free.net/ge/ds/chronicle/news25.htm

[The Magistrate]

8. Well Said, Mr. Merlin!

We must focus on what can be attained, my friend, even if this should fall somewhat short of what we desire. Rome was neither built, nor overthrown, in a day....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[JackRiddler]

9. talk about naive

So what can be attained is to endlessly go around in the same cycle of bad cop/good cop? The reassuring Clinton (who fattened up the sheeple and filled the treatury for another round of plunder) was the necessary prerequisite to a second Bush.

Rome will never be built or overthrown this way.

[The Magistrate]

You Make Me Giddy As A Schoolgirl, Mr. Riddler!

It is such a balm for this old soul to be called naive; it is a reminder of past summers, and fervid springs long gone by....

What is your practical prescription, Mr. Riddler? Not your fervent hope, Sir, but your plan of campaign? Accepting for the purpose of argument your cyclic contention, how do you see it being broken?

Let us see if you can make me smile again....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[The Magistrate]

12. The Machine Hiccoughed

[Eloriel]

39. If the Dems want my vote, they have to give me someone`

worth voting for.

Instead, they actively set about destroying the candidacy of the man who would have been the best President in my lifetime (and that includes JFK).

And are in the process of giving me John Fucking Kerry instead.

They don't seem to care if they get my vote.

So they won't.

[JasonBerry]

10. Thank you Merlin

Thank you. A little common sense is needed to compliment the far out crowd here at DU. Conspiracies, DK (1% in national polls), Che, Marx, and Anarchy avatars - it wasn't too long ago that the far out stuff that appeals so much to young people was called out for what it is. The "mainstream" and DU are far, far apart. Posts like yours remind me that sanity, common sense and true Democratic ideals still exist here and we haven't ALL been run off (or banned).

[JackRiddler]

11. So you prefer ideology to reason?

You call that an argument? Just a bunch of name-calling and abbreviated mythology. Nothing to do with facts, logic, or democratic values.

[The Magistrate]

13. It Is You, Mr. Riddler, Clearly Prefers Ideology To Reason

[bobthedrummer]

30. Dennis Kucinich is a lot more than 1% in national polls

now.
Watch Wisconsin on Tuesday.
He's going to surprise the pollsters again.

[mountainvue]

36. I agree with you Merlin.

This administration is by far the most dangerous we've ever had. If we don't take it back now then it may be too late. We're way off course as it already is.

[BL_Zebub]

5. A most unholy assessment of the situation, Mr. Riddler!

A Devil couldn't have said it better myself :evilgrin:

[Exgeneral]

6. Damn

Here I thought all the progressives left and gave their money to Jeff Seeman for congress.

[goobergunch]

17. It's Jeff Seemann

Two "n"s.

And the link to donate is here.

This has been a Goobergunchian Kick. :kick:

[Tesha]

23. Quite a few of them did (at least the money part) (NT)

[Capn Sunshine]

37. You're looking at one

[BeFree]

14. The reality is:

We have progressed pretty good in this election cycle. Dean, Kuch, Clark, et al, have moved the body politic a pretty good distance. Not far enough, mind you, just pretty good. Well, now, we've hit the WALL. We may make some progress, henceforth, but it will be slow. The reality is that we may have to settle for Kerry. Well, if that's it for now....that's it.

Our next chance for progress will be after we have seated a prez who is more to our liking than the idiot pug now installed.

I promise you this... when we have a more friendly prez in place, I shall join with you to begin progressing again. In fact, that's what we should be beginning to do... make plans for the day after the inauguration.

[Eloriel]

40. Be sure to take a good, long, hard look at that wall

and who erected it. That's the most important part of the message.

[regnaD kciN]

43. On the contrary...

Our next chance for progress will be after we have seated a prez who is more to our liking than the idiot pug now installed.

I promise you this... when we have a more friendly prez in place, I shall join with you to begin progressing again. In fact, that's what we should be beginning to do... make plans for the day after the inauguration.

...once "we have seated a prez who is more to our liking," said "prez" will become the boundary line for "acceptable liberalism." In other words, the Republicans will demonize him as "far left," as usual, and any positions more progressive than said "prez"'s agenda will be forever marginalized as "too extreme to take seriously" and vanish from the public arena. Meanwhile, the stage will be set for another ever-more-conservative Republican successor, as soon as the pendulum swings again.

This is the way it worked with Carter, this is the way it worked with Clinton, and this is the way it will work with a President John Kerry. We will wind up as we have over and over again...with a cycle between a lukewarm, go-along-to-get-along Democrat and a fire-breathing Republican. Why? Because Republicans value the importance of a "true believer" no matter what the cost (the 1964 Goldwater "debacle" in reality laid the groundwork for the conservative takeover of the last twenty years), while weak-bunny Democrats always secretly suspect that the American public would never vote for the things we believe in ("If you really knew me, you wouldn't like me..."), so we instead throw principle and conviction to the four winds and fling ourselves at the feet of the nearest lesser-of-two-evils, while warning those who might actually want to stand up for something that they have no choice but to go along, or else they will be to blame for our loss.

:puke:

As an earlier poster pointed out, President Kennedy described politics as "the art of the possible." But, for current Democrats, it's more "the art of the impossible," as in "it's impossible for our ideals to win out in the public discourse, so let's pretend we're really 'Republicans with a human face'." And, as we do this, our visibility and credibility sink ever faster down the drain...

:-(

[JVS]

16. I guess we have reached the thermidor phase

[Crachet2004]

18. Sheep?

Progressisves were marginalized because their agenda is too radical to appeal to mainstream voters and thereby beat Bush. We could even take the Congress back this time, the way things are shaping up...then the progressive agenda can advance another baby step. Might even get some health care. You just gotta be realistic. Kerrey voted for war because he was lied to...just like the rest of us.

The Dean campaign imploded from within as much as it was "marginalized" from outside agencies...never saw a candidate get so much bad advice (and take it) from within his own organization in my life. Dean and his team did much of the damage of themselves to themselves...but we all owe him a debt of gratitude (and Clarke too) for ripping aside the veil of invincibility and sanctity the Bushwhacker had managed to clothe himself in.

Most progressives realize the damage voting for Nader did the last time and don't want a repeat-damage done to us all. Progressives must advance their agenda from within the protection of a larger movement. Such participation will pay dividends to everyone. Nonparticipation might yield another defeat in November-and nobody wants that.

You are correct about the bimbo issue. I think it will be a nonissue, even if the rumors turn out to be true...and they may not be!

[anti-NAFTA]

19. You know what caused Nader?

Eight years under a president so terrified of the right that he passed welfare reform and other atrocities. Eight years under a president who talked about free trade like it was some great new invention. That's what caused Nader. One of my best friends is a conservative who loathes Bush's foreign policy and trade policy. I tried to convince him that the Democratic Party is the party for him if those are the two most important issues for him. You know what he said? He told me that Democrats are hypocrites who are all talk about the poor during elections but with no core principles!

THIS is what people like you are doing with your mantras about electability.

I absolutely can't stand Nader, but until our party stops being nothing but cynical talk at election time with nothing to back it up, how can you blame his constituents?

[Tinoire]

22. I've been reading your posts for a while

in GD, LBN and GD2004 for a while. I have no idea what you say in I/P which is as sensitive a subject as one can deal with but I must tell you that from everything I've seen, you do that avatar proud.

Well said.

[nancyharris]

21. Completely illogical

<”Progressives must advance their agenda from within the protection of a larger movement.”>

How is nominating Senator Kerry going to move the Party, even fractionally, to the progressive left? Why should the major Party players move to the left when the left is more than willing to vote for a centrist? Absurd!

[JackRiddler]

24. One excuse I shall not allow!

"Kerrey voted for war because he was lied to...just like the rest of us."

Sorry, I knew, Kucinich knew, Will Pitt knew, Scott Ritter knew, the entire foreign media and the millions of the antiwar movement worldwide knew all about the WMD lie. Everyone was lied to, but 23 senators saw through it and voted against IWR, including the head of the intelligence committee, Graham. There is no excuse for Kerry and I doubt you are falling for it yourself. You're just adopting the spin.

----------------

Am I calling for nonparticipation? I am only describing the existing stituation as I see it.

----------------

The issues remain narrowly defined thanks to the circular argument that we can't actually broaden how they are defined because this would be unelectable, and of course it's unelectable since the issues are always narrowly defined...

[Emillereid]

20. Amen Brother!

I think all of us agree that any of the democratic candidates is better than Bush -- we are all on the same page in wanting the Bush administration gone, gone, gone -- my preference is that they spend the rest of their years in prison. But -- why jump on the Kerry band wagon just yet. Regardless of what you hear on the TV, this democratic primary is not over. There's still a hell of a dog fight yet. Even if they don't end up being the candidate, I want to see the movements behind Dean, Kucinich and Sharpton go on to at least make the Democratic leadership stand up and take notice -- and know once and for all, that progressives' votes and work and passions are not to be taken for granted -- and that if we are going to win in November we have to draw sharp, unambiguous differences between ourselves and the Bushits. The 2002 strategy of republican lite is NOT going to work. If we can't take back our country, then we ought to at least try to take back our party from the Bush collaborators in the DLC ( and much of the DNC).

The take home message is this: this primary is just beginning -- don't throw in the towel and compromise BEFORE you have too -- and until at least a reasonable 'commitment' price has been paid. Make Kerry earn your devotion and your vote.

[Tinoire]

25. Thanks Jack. Good post. Your points are exactly why I am not ABB

The Democratic Party need not arrogantly rely on my vote. They can come earn it.

If the DLC & DNC prefer 4 more years of Bush than pandering to Progressives to capture the Progressive vote, then that shall be none of my concern.

I'm not over it.

Tens of thousands of dead Iraqis & Colombians are not over it.
Thousands of US soldiers without even the proper equipment are not over it.
Thousands of homeless, jobless Americans are not over it.

John, you have some explaining to do about the papers Scott Ritter personally sent you telling you there were no WMDs. Just humor us and address the issue please so that I can once again entertain the thought of humoring you with my vote.

I'm not over it and quickly becoming bitter.

[LostInTheMaise]

26. I'm with you Tinoire

It's time for an honest leader of the free world.

[Tinoire]

31. Thanks & welcome to DU

Good to run into you and hope to keep working with you.

Peace


:toast:

[JVS]

42. Hell yeah!

[stickdog]

27. But Kerry's imperialism is so much more PROGRESSIVE!

Even George Soros approves!

[JackRiddler]

and S&B

and the Heinz fortune

[corporatewhore]

41. hehehehehe

[Cheswick2.0]

47. yes and Will Smith, one of kerry's policy advisors says we should spend

more on the pentagon and big military profiteers. Rumor is that Will Smith posts here.

[JackRiddler]

28. kick it

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[DrFunkenstein]

32. He Married Teresa To Get Dirt On The Bush Mob?

He's telling th anti-war crowd to get over it? He's for seizing oil-rich countries? He's keeping 9/11 secrets under wraps?

Please, tell me where you've collected all this information so I can pass it on to the other people with the wool over their eyes. I don't want anyone legitmating the dictatorship of PATRIOTism! I was played for a fool by Kerry's Washington insider mind games!

[JackRiddler]

34. heh heh

I've collected all this information by paying attention and I know you are well aware of it, too; you merely want to give it a different spin.

But I was wondering when someone would notice the bit about Theresa!

Theresa somehow managed to go from a Skull & Bones billionaire (Heinz, killed in 1991 air crash), complete with the inheritance, to an S&B millionaire (Kerry).

John Heinz III was a potential Republican challenger to Bush Sr. and had collected dirt on both Iran-Contra and the Bush banking scams (was on the banking committee with Kerry).

It's hard to see his death as accidental, because on the very next day (Apr. 5) another plane crash killed John Tower, who a) was Heinz's friend, b) had also collected lots of Iran-Contra dirt and c) depending on accounts, was among those with Bush and Heinz on the October Surprise flight to Paris in 1980.

Looks like the BFEE-CIA were cleaning up potential troublemakers within the GOP.

Given all that it's hard to see the subsequent marriage as anything other than a power arrangement, with the presidency as the ultimate prize. I am presuming that Theresa added some of Heinz's inside info to Kerry's impressive collection (thanks to his various investigations of the Bush mob, BCCI, CIA-Contra Crack, etc.).

To all appearances Kerry's been laying the groundwork to have blackmail and assassination protection against the Bush Mob for nearly 20 years.

For more on S&B brothers Heinz, Kerry and Bush:

http://69.28.73.17/thornarticles/bloodbrothers.html

As for telling the antiwar movement to get over it, that's a quote from the man himself according to

http://www.pressaction.com/pablog/archives/001294.html

'It's Time to Get Over It'
John Kerry Tells Antiwar Movement to Move On
By Mark Hand





The leading mouthpiece for the New Democrats' radical interventionist program could be our next president. John Kerry, the frontrunner in the quest for the Democratic Party presidential nomination, has been promoting a foreign policy perspective called "progressive internationalism." It's a concept concocted by establishment Democrats seeking to convince potential backers in the corporate and political world that, if installed in the White House, they would preserve U.S. power and influence around the world, but in a kinder, gentler fashion than the current administration.

In the domestic battle to captain the American empire, the neocons have in their corner the Partnership for a New American Century while the New Democrats have the Progressive Policy Institute. Come November, who will get your vote? Coke or Pepsi?



Like the neocons, Kerry was not impressed by France's stance against the U.S. invasion of Iraq. On page 51 of his book, he writes: "I hope by the time you read this book that the UN has been usefully employed as a partner in the reconstruction of Iraq and that Jacque Chirac has ceased his foolish rebellion against the very idea of the Atlantic Alliance. America, which has always shown magnanimity in victory, should in turn meet repentant Europeans halfway, not ratchet up the badgering unilateralism that fed European fears in the first place."

There's much to digest in this paragraph. Perhaps the most interesting nugget is Kerry's statement that the United States should "meet repentant Europeans halfway." Hmmm, John, could you elaborate on what sins the Europeans committed for which they must repent?



On the next page, Kerry informs his reader that it's time we stop questioning U.S. foreign policy intentions: "As a veteran of both the Vietnam War and the Vietnam protest movement, I say to both conservative and liberal misinterpretations of that war that it's time to get over it and recognize it as an exception, not as a ruling example, of the U.S. military engagements of the twentieth century. If those of us who carried the physical and emotional burdens of that conflict can regain perspective and move on, so can those whose involvement was vicarious or who knew nothing of the war other than ideology and legend."

[JackRiddler]

38. & as for the 9/11 coverup

- Kerry has Cleland on his team but is still supporting the official story. Same pattern as always (did all those investigations, never exposed Bush Mob).

- K. attacked Dean for the his comment that Bush was obstructing the investigation because may have known in advance - although K. of all people should know better!

So, yes, he is helping to keep 9/11 under wraps.

And should he take office, with regard to 9/11 he will at best do the limited hangout that blames it all on the Saudis, setting up the next real target on the oil war list. It's time for a reliable Democrat to consolidate the Iraq gain (if possible) and prepare for the next intervention (which Bush is increasingly unable to do).

[John_H]

33. i agree pretty much with the war bit. but "electability" is no meme

It's a fact. Dean lost because people realized that bush would beat him by fifty. Either that or the democratic electorate are idiots. Is this the position of the Dean camp? Or is your position the people have spoken and you accept it?

[vision]

35. Good one JackRiddler

We as a nation went from the paternal Carter, to the "warrior" Reagan, to the sly fox Bush the greater, to the "Slick" but compassionate Clinton.

Than we had a hiccup. We elected a intellectual Eco-protector but were forced to take a Ken Doll dressed in GI Joe's' fatigues. What will we as a nation pick next?

Will we keep that faux GI Joe? or will we choose a democrat and if so who will it be? The choice we seem to be given is a Kerry. I am not sure that this is the choice that will advance populism and democracy. Personally I would rather have a fighter like Kucinich.

[CWebster]

44. Damn straight!

Speak it, brother!

[JackieO]

45. Servitude to the State

from Kerry's website:

"As part of his 100 day plan to change America, John Kerry will propose a comprehensive service plan that includes requiring mandatory service for high school students and four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service.

John Kerry's plan will call on every American of every age and every background to serve. John Kerry will set a goal of one million Americans a year in national service within the next decade."

The college tuition part sounds nice, the rest sounds fishy.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. funny thing I noticed in your post

Kerry has a hundred day plan to change the country. Clark had a hundred year plan. I am not sure why the contrast caught my eye but it did.

[Moderator]

49. Locking.....

1. If you start a thread in this forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. The moderators have the sole authority to decide whether a thread topic is inflammatory. Extremely inflammatory or inappropriate topics will be deleted rather than locked, and the thread's author will receive a warning.


DU Moderator