"Kucinich Campaign Becoming a Laugher"

[SaveElmer]

http://www.cleveland.com/tipoff/index.ssf?/base/opinion/116928540372900.xml&coll=2

U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich, once again running for president, often talks about his opposition to war and his idea for a Department of Peace.

But it's his approach to health care that really might gain traction.

If laughter is the best medicine, Kucinich's futile campaign may cure all that ails us.

Once a punching bag as Cleveland's boy mayor, he's now a punch line.

American Greetings made a card touting the fact that he had "thrown his hat" into the presidential race. The card then describes the hat as pointy with bells, skewering the elfen congressman. And on NPR's "Wait Wait . . . Don't Tell Me!" show last weekend, host Peter Sagal read a list of Democratic presidential hopefuls, including Kucinich, "who is, of course, the official hopeless candidate of 'Wait, Wait . . . Don't Tell Me' - and that is a title Kucinich will hold until John Kerry announces his bid."

Ouch.

David Letterman, who had Kucinich on his show during his last presidential campaign to deliver the famed "Top 10 List," is working Kucinich back into his act with regularity. Thursday night, he flashed the banner, "Dennis Kucinich: All the way in '08" followed by this announcement: "Before every speech, he gets ripped on vodka!" Then came the clip of Kucinich, with a low, sorrowful voice, singing "Sixteen Tons" during his speech this month to the Rainbow/PUSH coalition.

[Auggie]

1. So unfair...

[SaveElmer]

3. So you think I am taking a cheap shot then?

Maybe mocking someone gratuitously...

Or perhaps using a biased source?

[AtomicKitten]

18. bam

:rofl:

:applause:

[Forkboy]

69. Still interested in fairness?

If you liked that I've stuck up a little for Hillary lately why applaud this?

[AtomicKitten]

77. you bet -- and in fair play

And I will allow the ever so lovely, intelligent and fab-u-lous :) seasonedblue answer your question for me.

As she posted downthread:

Well I'm not a Clinton or a Kucinich supporter, but there have been plenty of threads against Hillary that were so vile they had to be locked. There's a poll in GD-P right now, questioning whether factually incorrect information should be banned from DU, and plenty of folks don't think so. The OP's playing turn-about, and I don't blame him.

Maybe if more flamebait anti-Hillary threads are confronted like this, things will settle down.

[Forkboy]

88. Wishful thinking...things are downright tame here right now.

This is the equivalent of trying to put out a fire with gasoline.It's not going to stop anything,and just adds to the pile of crap already here.

[AtomicKitten]

89. I wasn't here the last election

but from what I hear .... :scared:

[Forkboy]

93. It was bad...but no different from what you've already seen,only MORE.

The primaries were like watching monkeys on acid,and the Hillary supporters have assumed the role of the Kerry supporters,in both good and bad ways.(Good in that they defend her strongly,bad that they've already started the banning talk.It's sad when one tells the mods they'll be keeping track of the mods actions to make sure they're fair.)

I'm truly wondering how they'll react when the Right-wing smear machine really kicks in against the candidate,especially if it's Hillary.If the more vocal Hillary supporters on this board are any indication they'll be having a run on surgical forehead vein repairs.If a few vocal supporters of a candidate that polls in the 2-3% range can make them act this way I fear what how easily they can manipulated when the heat really starts.

[Auggie]

24. Not you. The media in general.

He's an easy target because his ideas are very progressive and he looks "nerdish." He's fighting the corporate fascists on our behalf and deserves our support and respect.

[Uncle Joe]

55. I agree with your take on the media,

they can't see substance because the style keeps getting in their eyes. Junior High values pervade the mass corporate media and this is why we're in Iraq today.

[calimary]

6. No kidding.

He's got SO much to contribute, and I would certainly like the kind of mindset he has to repeat itself in more of our leadership. We need to start thinking the way he does on a lot of issues.

[Radical Activist]

65. Not really.

Dennis brings it on himself.

[Clarkie1]

2. I'm not sure what your motive is for posts like this.

Personal grudge or something? Why rip into Kucinich?

[NYCGirl]

4. This is, I believe, the motive:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3198977&mesg_id=3198977

[mmonk]

32. Why not respond in a substantive manner

instead of using a personal attack piece which describes Kucinich as elf like? I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked as well.

[NYCGirl]

46. Because the original post was not substantive. The poster is replying in kind. NT

[mmonk]

53. It still doesn't answer the question.

It's all the same thing (except this one probably won't be locked).

[SaveElmer]

7. So you think I am being unfair?

Maybe the Cleveland Plain Dealer is not the most unbiased source in the world...?

or

Maybe mocking another candidate gratuitously is really not something that contributes to constructive dialogue?

[rinsd]

8. Tit for tat my friend.

They hit yours, you hit them back.

[mmonk]

56. Petulance is no excuse nor noble.

[rinsd]

60. Nobody assigned nobility to it .

It is simply part of politics and of the internet.

[mmonk]

63. I'll remember that when you complain

of an anti-Hillary post.

[rinsd]

66. And I am sure you'll be right there with me!

:eyes:

[mmonk]

83. I've defended her before concerning overtly negative comments.

Today is probably the end though.

[Greyhound]

59. Has something to do with fear.

It's the common denominator from her campaign. They do this to all of her opponents.

"Given a choice between a Republican and someone that acts like a Republican, the real Republican will win every time"

[RufusTFirefly]

5. A prolonged version of the Dean scream

Kucinich isn't in corporate America's pocket. In other words, he's screwed.

[GreenPartyVoter]

94. Indeed *sigh*

[rinsd]

9. Wow. The Plain Dealer really hates this guy. (nt)

[Auggie]

20. Not the PD. Just some no-name columnist.

[madfloridian]

10. You are using the tactics of humiliation on a Democratic candidate.

I see nothing wrong with criticizing views and stances, but making fun of anyone is just plain wrong.

This is just ugly.

[rinsd]

11. Its politics

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3198977&mesg_id=3198977

[SaveElmer]

12. So I am being unfair eh?

Mocking someone unnecessarily...maybe almost degradingly?

And certainly the Cleveland Plain Dealer is probably not the most unbiased source in the world eh?

[AtomicKitten]

13. whoa nelly

too funny :)

[madfloridian]

14. If you think it is ok, if it fits your style....go for it.

I don't know why you are doing it, but it is just ugly.

[SaveElmer]

16. Well at least I didn't call Dennis...

A whore...right?

And the Cleveland Plain Dealer isn't quite as bad as say Fox News...or the Washington Times!

[Rusty MacHenry]

15. Dude I don't know where you been

But the Plain Dealer have been hateing Democrats since forever, and it shows in there editoral/opinion section. In 2004 they took a no stance in endorseing no one in the presidental race. This news does not surprise me coming from the Plain Dealer.

[SaveElmer]

17. So then you think it is probably unfair...

To quote such a right wing source when criticizing a Democrat?

[Rusty MacHenry]

21. Edited

[Rusty MacHenry]

22. Not really

Because you expect it, you expect them to critize all Democrats and liberals cause that's there job, that's what there supposed to do, if they didn't they wouldn't be dubbed a "RW Paper". Now it would be unfair if my paper I read The Pittsburgh Post Gazette, a liberal paper to go out and Critize Kucinich, Bob Casey or any other Democrat unfairly and fot no reason.

But quoteing the PD won't get you anywhere cause they'll dub you a freeper and not credible on this board.

[tuvor]

19. He's an "elfen" congressman, huh? Is that hugh?

[rinsd]

23. hehehe SaveElmer brings a gun to the knife fight

:smoke:

[The_Casual_Observer]

25. The sad fact is that Dennis is the only real public servant in the bunch

The rest are pure form over substance. Form always wins over substance in this shit country.

[Forkboy]

26. "Ah.Smug Mode."

[Douglas Carpenter]

27. Imagine the one candidate who clearly and articulately and consistently articulates mainstream

progressive Democratic values with specific-no beating around the bush proposals, and that is considered laughing material.

Is this because Mr. Kucinich actually advocates policies that most progressive Democrats actually support?

"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."

-- George Orwell


http://kucinich.us/issues

http://kucinich.us/


.

[Greyhound]

61. Just had a thought and would like you opinion.

When I read your lesser known, yet quite apt, quote of Orwell, it occurred to me that there seems to be a correlation between being well read and supporting ideas over image.
:kick:

[AnOhioan]

28. A cheap shot from a right wing rag that is 4 months old.....

SaveElmer must be reeaalllly bored to dig up this piece of trash.

[SaveElmer]

38. So I shouldn't be using a right wing source to dig up trash

About Democrats? Is that what you are saying?

[Forkboy]

68. I think everyone got the point about twenty posts ago

You're a subtle as a sledgehammer.

How's it feel to become what you claim to hate?

[SaveElmer]

71. "I think everyone got the point about twenty posts ago"

Obviously not...because they keep comin'...

[Forkboy]

72. Well maybe you taught them a lesson they'll never forget.

Or,this post will sink and be forgotten by tomorrow.

Welcome to the internet.

[SaveElmer]

73. Well one or two would be enough...

I'll take small victories...

[MadHound]

29. You know what I find amusing?

The fact that, for such a "hopeless campaign", Kucinich gets smeared an awful lot, both around here and in the MSM. It's almost like certain special interest groups are damn scared of this man. They feel like they absolutely must crush this man, don't allow his ideas gain traction, don't allow him anywhere near power.

Really, when is the last time that you heard such demonization of a candidate who is so far back in the polls? I mean really now, such vitriol would normally be better spent on slamming one of the candidates who is further up in the race. But nooo, they come after Kucinich. Why is that? Is it because they're afraid that if it is ever widely known how right Kucinich has been all along on the war, it might damage their war hawk candidate? Is it because they're afraid if Kucinich's health care plan really became common knowledge, it might put their own in the shade? Or is it simply the overall effect that Kucinich is a caring, moral human being who hasn't sold himself out to various corporate interests that gets their panties in a twist? God knows, this country doesn't need another corporate whore in office, perhaps that's why Dennis scares the shit out them.

Yep, a bit pecurliar, and mighty damn funny, all the fury that Dennis draws down on himself, especially for one being so far back in the race.

As has been said before, things that make you go hmmmm:think:

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. This is the same treatment Kucinich get in 2004

How well did he do then?

[rinsd]

64. This anti-Kucinich posting has alot to do with the behavior of Kucinich supporters

Much like in 2004 when the overzealous PHDC crowd went nuts.

But yeah I have issues with a guy who hires a neophyte whose experience amounts to working on the Kucinich campaign in ME and the guy's wife's failed run against Snowe this year to run his Presidential campaign.

Like Bush(and this is about the only way in which Kucinich is like him) it seems ideological symmetry is more important to Kucinich that having the skills to do the job.

[TheWatcher]

30. When I see this kind of dehumanization of possibly the only true Candidate

That supports the kind of change this country needs, I need not shoot the messenger.

The messenger has already shot himself.

And so has this country apparently. In the foot, in the head, does it matter?

Perhaps a disturbing percentage of the people really aren't interested in anyone who truly represents their interests.

They consistently go after the one's who don't. And although many could try the argument that there are only "lesser evils" to choose from, and we must "hold our noses" if we must, although the argument has some merit because of the way our Political Process plays out like so much bad scripted Theater nowadays, it can't all be blamed on that merit alone.

Here you have someone who is probably the closest thing to a real servant of The People's Interests, yet he is largely ignored, smeared, and shat upon. Although I have a problem with his stance on abortion, compared to what we have right now, and frankly, our other choices, if you TRULY want someone who would represent the interests of WE THE PEOPLE, this is your man.

But hey, he just isn't sexy enough. Doesn't look Presidential Enough. Blah, Blah, Blah.
You know, sometimes I think that a person that serves the interests of The People simply isn't a priority for this country anymore. Far too many of us just want to feel good, play with our bobbles and trinkets, and believe everything is OK, and fall in line with whatever shiny new candidate is pushed upon us to "save us," and somehow, everything will just right itself in time.

Far too many of us have fallen into the trap of falling for the same "Meet the New Boss, Same As The Old Boss" trick every time, no matter which party prevails.

Perhaps America just no longer wants to be Free.

We just can't be bothered.

To addicted to shiny, I suppose.

Kucinich is not perfect, but he's one hell of a candidate. You could do much worse.

And, sadly, I humbly predict, like so many times before, we ultimately, and quite willingly, will do just that.

[SaveElmer]

37. So maybe I was being unfair huh?

Maybe being disparaging just to be snarky?

Possibly using a less than unbiased source?

Maybe just piling on for the fun of it?

[mmonk]

31. Do you want me to continue holding my fire?

[wyldwolf]

33. we're all shaking in our boots at the thought of you opening fire.

[mmonk]

34. Do you want democrats to rally around her if she wins?

Fat chance using this method. Pure flamebait. It needs to be locked like some of the attack threads on Hillary. There is zero substance to this thread.

[wyldwolf]

36. hysterical! No limit to the amount of anti-Hillary BS threads daily BUT...

... you actually believe an anti-Kucinich thread on DU will somehow stop Democrats from rallying around Clinton.

[mmonk]

39. Plenty yes. Some locked. This one cites a hit piece

that describes Kucinich as elven. Therefore it should be locked too. By the way, I'm a democrat. Keep it up and I'll be an example of what I mean if she is the nominee.

[wyldwolf]

40. so? They're ALL hit pieces. Have you expressed your "concern" in the Hillary threads?

By the way, I'm a democrat. Keep it up and I'll be an example of what I mean if she is the nominee.

Meaningless threat.

[mmonk]

41. I have said I don't pick the "last choice" candidates because I don't want to insult candidates.

The only thing I've said that would be considered "negative" by her camp is that I thought she might not win the general election if she were the nominee due to her negatives because of a decade long attack on her. I don't call her names or post things of no political substance. My "threat" is only meaningless if you don't want as many votes as possible if she is the nominee.

[wyldwolf]

44. this isn't about you insulting candidates

It's about you pouting in one of a few anti-Kucinich thread about negativity when you've let dozens of anti-Hillary threads escape your attention.

Yes, your threat is meaningless. I can see you now on election day if Clinton is the nominee.

Friend: Why aren't you voting today?
You: Because someone in an internet discussion forum said mean things about Kucinich.

[mmonk]

47. I've shown up in other attack threads complaining number one.

The piece cited is nothing but name calling and insult so yeah, if you call calling attention to that fact pouting, I will say something. You might not want to show up in any hit thread against Hillary to avoid any hypocrisy lest you be called pouting. I will vote but nothing says I have to participate in the presidential part (though I plan to vote at present and do warn you that I can be persuaded not to participate in that part).

[wyldwolf]

58. show me three example of you showing up in an anti-Hillary thread complaining

[mmonk]

95. There are quite a few anti-Hillary threads that have been posted.

Give me some time and I'll be back.

[dionysus]

45. no. the attitudes of people like you do nothing to endear anyone

to Hillary. You just like insulting people. I doubt you've created any hillary converts with your crap posts.

[wyldwolf]

57. like I always ask you to do: Show me the insult... alert it...

[SaveElmer]

42. So mmonk...you think this was unfair right?

Taking a cheap shot having nothing to do with the discourse?

Perhaps I used a discredited right wing source to make my point? Not really caring where this came from as long as it served the end, which was to bash the object of my derision?

Is this what bothers you about my Post?

[mmonk]

43. Of course.

Is this a two wrongs make a right post?

[SaveElmer]

48. Yeah it is ...kinda

Politics isn't conducted by the golden rule...sometimes reasoned responses and appealing to people's sense of fair play doesn't work...

How often have you heard Hillary called some variation of the word "Whore" around here, among other insults...some even more degrading?

How often have you seen Fox News, Insight.com, and the Washington Times used as sources in a good "Hillary bashing" thread?

How many times have you seen thoroughly debunked "facts" about her record reappear time and time again as the catalyst for these insults?

For some (and I am not talking about you specifically as I have not researched your postings), but for some, the plain fact is, the source, nature, and accuracy of the slur means nothing to them as long as they can get a good Hillary bashing thread going....so

Once in a while, a little turnabout is helpful. Maybe some of those doing the things I describe will remember what it felt like to have their blood boil a bit when they read a post they considered unfair to their candidate, and readjust their strategy accordingly...

If not, at least I get the satisfaction of seeing them flail around a bit trying to come to grips with the irony of it all.

[mmonk]

50. Likewise, I haven't researched or read all the anti-Hillary threads.

So why not complain in those threads instead of this way?

[SaveElmer]

51. Oh believe me I have...time and time and time again...

ad nauseum...

[Czolgosz]

49. I love Dennis Kucinich, and I wish we lived in a society where his great ideas were embraced.

[saltpoint]

52. I thought Dennis Kucinich handily defeated a well-financed steakhouse

heiress in a primary race this past November. Is that not so?

His constituents appear to me to be satisfied enough to return him again and again to Washington to represent them, and to prefer him to his primary opponent in 2006.

That ain't bad.

[RufusTFirefly]

75. Yes, but therein lies a problem with Kucinich

Many representatives inspire great loyalty within their districts and are capable of being re-elected again and again. However, being elected statewide, where the electorate is usually far more diverse, is a different matter entirely. I like many of Kucinich's ideas but wish he would broaden his base by being elected statewide as either governor or senator before setting his sights on 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. I don't think this eliminates him as a presidential possibility but IMHO it's definitely a liability.

[saltpoint]

84. Ohio has its conservative pockets, that's for sure. I grew up in one.

The Southwest corner is very red, although I believe Montgomery County in and around Dayton went for Kerry-Edwards over Bush-Cheney in 2004. Two of my friends from the Boston area sojourned in Montgomery County to throw in with the local Democratic organization there to help roll up some blue votes in that one.

But just down the road are Warren and Butler Counties, and the fundamentalist presence seems very strong there, and just to the south of that is Boehner's district. It's kind of an uphill climb in that part of Ohio. I doubt if they'd elect any Democrat, nevermind as liberal a one as Kucinich.

Boehner's district strikes me as a bunch of very white suburbs and 2 or 3 exits off the interstate. Also it's pretty close to that huge statue of Jesus at the Rt. 63 exit.

This is kind a wasteland for blue politics. Rough going.

[zulchzulu]

54. What a lame article

I'm not a big fan of Kucinich lately, but this op piece is pretty lame. It smells like Repig all over.

[Cameron27]

62. LOL

A DU "what's good for the gander is good for the goose"

[RufusTFirefly]

74. How is comparing Kucinich to an elf equivalent to questioning Clinton's voting record?

Sorry, but I don't see the equivalence.

There are legitimate reasons to question the voting records of both Kucinich and Clinton, but calling the former "elfen" and the latter a "whore" does a grave disservice to responsible political discourse. That said, questioning Clinton's judgment on key issues (most notably, the illegal, heartless, unconstitutional invasion of Iraq) is not a "smear," not does it make one a right-wing nut or a dupe of the RW media. One of the reasons that Kucinich is held up to ridicule is that it's easier than taking issues with his actual positions, which are far more principled or specific than those of either Clinton or Obama.

Why Pretend That Hillary Clinton Is Progressive? (from the ultra-rightwing Common Dreams)

Senator Clinton, in Pander Mode (from the rightwing New York Times)

By the way, for those who suspect otherwise, I am not currently a Kucinich supporter, although I find many of his stands to be inspiring and courageous rather than ambiguous and expedient.

[Cameron27]

76. Well I'm not a Clinton or a Kucinich supporter,

but there have been plenty of threads against Hillary that were so vile they had to be locked. There's a poll in GD-P right now, questioning whether factually incorrect information should be banned from DU, and plenty of folks don't think so. The OP's playing turn-about, and I don't blame him.

Maybe if more flamebait anti-Hillary threads are confronted like this, things will settle down.

Edited to add: There's a lovely thread in GD right now asking, "Why Do We Hate Hillary?"

Can you imagine if a thread popped up with this..."Why Do We Hate John Edwards?"

"Why Do We Hate Barack Obama?"

[AtomicKitten]

78. thanks, seasonedblue

you, as usual, are right on the money

[Cameron27]

79. Thanks AK

I get so tired of the Hillary bashing, I can only imagine what it must do to her supporters.

[mmonk]

80. A thread and poll concerning factually incorrect information

is different than a thread about a piece that characterizes a candidate as an elf and ridicules that candidate as a worthless candidate. That's the whole problem. If I were to see a Hillary thread comparing her to a witch or troll or munchkin or whatever and making her out as ridiculous, I don't think that's appropriate either.

[NYCGirl]

81. I've seen a lot worse here than "munchkin" directed at Senator Clinton. NT

[rinsd]

85. Here

Here is BS that has been debunked several times.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x583032

Here is a a whole whore thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3162428

Here's some whore comments from the last week (understanding that DU's doesn;t search the archives and the boards is moving so fast)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3185668&mesg_id=3186177

Same Poster different thread (same poster actually had quite a few examples)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3183401&mesg_id=3184261

More:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3195335&mesg_id=3196348

In fact fuck it all here's a google search of DU for hillary whore.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS212US212&q=hillary+whore+site%3Ademocraticunderground.com&btnG=Search

[SaveElmer]

86. This of course does not include...

Remarks that were so offensive the thread, sub-thread, and or post had to be removed....

[Forkboy]

92. If they were removed the mods are doing their job,no?

Hard to stop someone from saying something before they've said it.

And if they've been removed what's the problem?

[mmonk]

90. I'm aware of the corporate whore label given to her and the DLC.

I'm not supporting the claims nor saying they are alright or appropriate (except for whether she actually does support corporate interests or not which I think would be legitimate debate). Are you saying that Kucinich is an elf post and a joke candidate is in the same vein and how exactly could that be debated?

[rinsd]

91. One could certainly argue that Hillary is a corporatist.

I have no issue with that, adding the word whore is BS.

"Are you saying that Kucinich is an elf post and a joke candidate is in the same vein and how exactly could that be debated? "

I don't like it when people make fun of his looks but to be honest I don't see to much of that

I think a discussion of whether he is a vanity or joke candidate are certainly valid though.

[mmonk]

96. The issues he raises aren't.

[ulysses]

97. right.

Trying to make Kucinich a "joke candidate" trivializes the issues - not that that's a surprise from some quarters.

[Unvanguard]

67. They did the same thing in 2004.

Candidates outside the ruling-class spectrum are never looked upon with much fondness.

[ieoeja]

70. Ronald Reagan and "Laugh In"

I grew up when "President Reagan" was a one-liner guaranteed to get a laugh. One used routinely during the "News of the Future" segment on the TV Show Laugh In. The man and his ideas were so goofy that nobody could seriously imagine him in the White House.

[mdmc]

82. first they ignore, laugh, fight you ... then you win

We all know that Kucinich can't triangulate like the rest of the democratic party. We all know that DK is unique to the campaign.

It is triangulation that is the joke. DK is the future.

[Freddie Stubbs]

87. First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then you

lose every single primary. Then you go back to Ohio.