Disenfranchised voters- again

[tobius]

Why all the attention to such small and unrepresentative states as Iowa and New Hampshire with such small delegate counts?


Not only do they not "look like America", (a lot of white, older voters). With the especially front loaded primary system this season, Kerry the Default Democrat looks like he will have gathered enough momentum to knock out 5 candidates before the majority of African-American and Hispanic voters have their votes counted.

[RafterMan]

1. Uhhh

Before the majority of white voters had their votes counted, too.

[tobius]

2. and in FL whites were disenfranchised also

The point is not new obviously, but the idea that with "electability", and the DLC in such a hurry to unite behind Kerry, it is mind boggling to hear for the last 3+ years that dem controlled voting precincts, caucuses, ballots, and now the whole primary system has continually found ways to leave people feeling that their vote does not count.

[Zhade]

5. Funny thing about the "hurry to unite" factor...

...it reminds me of another time the American People were hurried into something...

Oh, yes. The illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq promoted by the DLC-linked PNAC.

THAT'S why this hurry-up-select-Kerry-now-now-NOW thing has bugged me so much. It reminds me of that recent hoodwinking.

[oasis]

3. The rules were understood far in advance of the elections. Nothing

we can do about it now. Recently there has been talk of rotating the states primaries for a more equitable situation in the future..

[Mairead]

4. But not rotatating Iowa or NH. They're set in stone.

Two white, rather conservative states.

[Paschall]

6. You might try clarifying--rather than muddying--the issue

The primaries are organized by the party. What you're hyperbolically labeling "disenfranchisement" in the primary system is easily solved. People need only show up for caucuses or at the ballotting places.

Non-participation in the primaries has nothing whatsoever to do with the systematic disenfranchisement perpetrated by Jebbie Bush and other evil-doers in the actual election via data manipulation, bogus felon purges, police intimidation, etc.

[Brian_Expat]

7. "Disenfranchisement"

That's when people who should have a say DON'T. You know, like the people insisting that Kucinich, Edwards and Dean drop out of the race when only 25% of Democrats have voted for a candidate.

[Paschall]

8. So you're saying that by dropping out of the race Cynthia McKinney...

..."disenfranchised" voters? That's a mighty big stretch.

People can put pressure on candidates to stay in the race or drop out. But the decision is the candidate's. Disenfranchisement is not the appropriate term. It's just politics.

Disenfranchisement is a crime, and throwing the word around in the primary context is absurd. Democratic Party rules make it possible for any eligible voter who supports the party to participate and even to present platform resolutions in caucus. The process could hardly be more open.

The solution to what you're mistakenly labelling "disenfranchisement" is working to get people out to vote. And getting involved in the party to reduce the DLC influence, if that is your problem.

Real disenfranchisement is what happened in Florida when people who did turn out to vote were turned away from the polls or had votes were tossed into the trash. That hasn't happened in the primaries. Or are you saying it has?

Using the term here is actually an insult to the crime victims, the people who were truly disenfranchised in Florida (and elsewhere).

[tobius]

9. It can be a criminal act, you are correct

I was using the word in the lexicon of the day. The House Commerce Commitee did not find criminal acts in FL. after an investigation. GAO reports follow.

OCTOBER 15, 2001
The General Accounting Office released four reports today... The third, Elections: Statistical Analysis of Factors that Affected Uncounted Votes in the 2000 Presidential Election (GAO-02-122) (PDF - 21 pages), reports that differences between states were the most important factor affecting the number of uncounted votes in the 2000 presidential election. The fourth report, Status and Use of Federal Voting System Standards (GAO-02-52) (PDF - 30 pages), recommends the development and implementation of federal standards for voting equipment, as well as a systemized means of ensuring the continued quality of the system. http://www.brook.edu/dybdocroot/GS/Projects/electionreform/ElectionReform.htm

see also.. (disfranchise, disenfranchise (vv.)

The two verbs are exact synonyms meaning “to remove, cancel, or take away the franchise.” Disfranchise is older and more frequent than disenfranchise. The noun franchise is the key: it means “the right to vote,” “a privilege granted by an authority,” or “an exclusive right to sell a product in a particular area” or “the area itself,” plus some other figurative uses. To enfranchise and to franchise are also synonyms, meaning “to grant a franchise.” The prefix dis- reverses the meanings of franchise and enfranchise alike.
  
The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. Copyright © 1993 Columbia University Press.

[Paschall]

11. HAHAHAHAHA!

Ya wanna blame Democratic campaigns for "disenfranchising" voters by urging other candidates to drop out, but you believe there were no criminal acts committed against Florida voters in 2000.

Thanks for the laugh!

Despite your Che avatar, and despite your apparent concern about minority voters, I think you're in the wrong space-time continuum at DU. I guess you never heard of Katherine Harris or the man who has tracked her crimes, Greg Palast.

In 2000, Katherine Harris, Florida Secretary of State, ordered county elections officials to purge 57,000 citizens from voter registries as felons not allowed to vote in Florida. In fact, about 95 percent of these voters were innocent of crimes -- but 54 percent were guilty of being African-American. No guess there: a voter's race is right there on the voter form. So there was the election: BBC Television, for whom I conducted the investigation of this black-out operation, figures Al Gore lost 22,000 votes this way.

But I was wrong. The company that put together this racial roster that fixed the election, DBT On-Line of Boca Raton, has now 'fessed up, having been sued by the NAACP for violating Floridians' civil rights. They have turned over to the NAACP's lawyers a report indicating that the state ordered the purge of 94,000 voters and that, according to the company's data, no more than 3,000 are likely illegal voters. http://globalresearch.ca/articles/PAL211A.html

[tobius]

14. ok, you got me

without a complete rehash of 2000; which would be pointless as is evidenced by your glee over the ongoing developments, I have conceded that a strict interpretation of the term in question can include criminal indictments. However, I believe the usage of the word "disenfranchised" is consistent with applications in a broader context as evidenced by this handy link- http://www.google.com/search?q=disenfranchised+voters+democrats+elections&btnG=Google+Search&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Also see recent claims against the Kerry campaign, by some various supporters of past and current candidates.( In addition to google, I have found this one quite helpful ). http://www.yahoo.com

My concern is the majority of voters; again, have been left with a nominee picked with a small, rural, non-representative slice of the Democratic party. The disappointment is not that Mr. Palast is doing useful and interesting work, but that this primary system is not facing an overhaul at least on pace with the changing demographics of the country's' population.

appreciate the opportunity to sharpen my thoughts, now I'm back to bed (PT here)


(edited for general sloppiness)

[Paschall]

15. No "glee over the ongoing developments"

Hilarity at your over-the-top criticism of the primary process coupled with your implicit denial that crimes were committed in Florida.

If you feel the primary process needs to be overhauled, do something about it. Get involved in the party, beat the bushes for support (no pun intended) and get the party rules changed. That's how things happen in the Democratic house.

[Brian_Expat]

10. People who urge other candidates to "drop out early"

are disenfranchising voters. Period.

Why should someone who couldn't win Iowa drop out before the people of California, New York and Massachusetts have a chance to evaluate that candidate? They shouldn't.

Kerry's whole campaign right now is screaming that other candidates should just quit -- and that's disenfranchising. We Democrats, NOT certain campaigns, should determine who the nominee is. The only "drop out" that should count is the final vote count.

[Paschall]

12. So ignore the "screaming" and urge your candidate to stay in the race...

Nobody in recent history was ever disenfranchised by screamers, except maybe the Florida voters whose ballots weren't counted following the "bourgeois riot" staged by GOP operatives in Florida 2000.

Are you contributing time/money to your candidate, or helping get out the vote?

[snippy]

13. Is this the first election you have followed?