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Which of our past nominees does Dean think was the lesser of two evils?

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 12:33 AM
Original message
Which of our past nominees does Dean think was the lesser of two evils?
Edited on Thu Feb-12-04 12:34 AM by bigtree
Dean said:

"What we now see is that John Kerry is part of the corrupt political culture in Washington," Dean said in an interview.

And:

"I intend to support the Democratic nominee under any circumstances," Dean said. "I'm just deeply disappointed that once again we may have to settle for the lesser of two evils."


Which of our party's nominees that I fought so hard for over the years does Dean feel is an evil? He appears to be seething underneath with contempt for the Democratic party and our faithful in Washington.

Why should he expect the votes of those who have worked so hard to support and defend our party faithful when he holds our leaders in such low regard?

I have heard many admonitions from Dean supporters about the folly in taking their votes for granted. I would ask them, why does Dean feel justified in scorning my leaders at every opportunity as republicans and Washington insiders? Does he not respect my vote? Does he not feel that he needs my support? Has he decided that he doesn't need the support of the party leaders that he has scorned?

My vote will matter, in the primary and in the general election. It is a vote against the present administration, no matter who eventually wins the nomination. At some point this purse-proud politician will have to win some states or accept that his attacks on our party are akin to the campaign of the ones he would depose.

I won't stand by and let him tear our party down just to get himself elected. I won't stand for anyone tearing at our party. Neither should anyone else who is proud of their Democratic party as I am. Stand with me against these attacks on our party, wherever the come from.


"I think there comes a point when you have to recognize reality," said Iowa Sen. Tom Harkin, one of Dean's high-profile endorsers. . . I think at some point there's going to have to be a reckoning here."


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040211/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_68
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Let me count.
What the "insiders" have done lately.

Patriot Act

Iraq Invasion

Voting for more money for the Iraq fiasco.

Medicare fiasco which is going to crush seniors.

Huge tax cuts

Huge deficit

Unfunded No Child Left Behind

Cuts in so many services that states and counties are raising taxes.

Allowing DeLay and Hastert to get away with not bring the FCC ruling to the House floor.

Allowing Social Security to be on the table for privatization.

There is more. I do respect some greatly, but this is not how Democrats should act.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. Clinton may have been the lesser of two evils.
NAFTA, war on poor working mothers (welfare reform), continuation of the War on Drugs, iraq policy that kept people starving, ignoring the slaughter in Rwanda, Telecommunications act, etc.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. That's pretty much how I saw it
I was never a really huge Clinton fan.

Or Gore, until much more recently when he has let himself "rip loose," I think his term was.
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. I've always say Clinton is the best Republican president we
have ever had.

He completely lost me on welfare reform and indiscriminate bombing from the skies in Bosnia.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. Dean just doesn't seem to understand
that it's the Democratic party he's talking to when he's running in the primaries. He is still talking as if he's speaking only to the "new people he's brought into the process".

I hope Dean can find his way to a position where he can be a voice inside the party instead of further isolating himself.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. Mighty small agenda you have there
Edited on Thu Feb-12-04 12:55 AM by bigtree
Democratic Accomplishments Since Regaining the Majority
http://www.democrats.senate.gov/~dpc/pubs/107-2-387.html

Since taking over the leadership of the Senate last year, Democrats have made a difference for all our families by passing important, common-sense legislation in a wide variety of policy areas while serving as a check against a Republican hard right agenda that does not reflect the values of most Americans.

Under Democratic leadership, the Senate has passed:

-Corporate Accountability: a bill to boost consumer and investor confidence and enhance corporate accountability;
-Patients' Bill of Rights: legislation to ensure that doctors, not insurance company bureaucrats, make health care decisions about patients;
-Greater Access to Affordable Pharmaceuticals: legislation designed to lower prescription drug prices by stopping drug company abuses that prevent generic drug competition;
-Prescription Drug Reimportation: an amendment to allow the reimportation of prescription drugs from Canada, which will lower the price of prescription drugs in the United States;
-State Flexibility in Providing Prescription Drug Discounts: an amendment to permit states to give residents access to lower prescription drug prices by extending the use of Medicaid-type rebates and discounts.
-Fiscal Relief for the States: an amendment to provide fiscal relief to states by temporarily increasing the federal Medicaid match rate (FMAP) - in addition to easing the states' current budget crunches, the increase will help states cope with the growing number of Americans who are uninsured.
-Health Care Safety Net: legislation to improve access to health care services for uninsured and medically-underserved individuals.
Medical Device User Fees: legislation to speed the Food and Drug Administration's approval of medical devices.
-Unemployment Insurance/Economic Stimulus: an economic stimulus bill designed to get our economy moving again through extended unemployment benefits, incentives for business investment, an extension of expired tax provisions, and tax incentives to help rebuild lower Manhattan;
-Military Construction Appropriations: $10.5 billion to pay for military family housing and military bases, an amount exceeding the Administration's request by $835 million;
-Defense Appropriations: $355.1 billion to pay for ongoing military activities, an increase of $34.1 billion over last year;
-Homeland Defense Appropriations: $8.3 billion to provide for homeland defense in the FY 2002 Department of Defense appropriations bill;
-Appropriations: The Senate appropriations committee reported all 13 Fiscal Year 2003 appropriations bills before the August recess, the first time all 13 bills were reported by the recess since 1994, the last full year in which Democrats controlled the Senate. Unfortunately, the House halted action on appropriations bills, forcing the government to rely on a series of temporary funding bills;
-Supplemental Appropriations: legislation to provide $29 billion for the Department of Defense, homeland security, the Transportation Security Administration, and recovery efforts in New York City;
-Debt Limit: passed the debt limit increase requested by the President in order to avoid default and preserve the full faith and credit of the United States;
-Campaign Finance Reform: an overhaul of our nation's campaign finance laws to restore integrity to our electoral process;
-Election Reform: election reform legislation to ensure that every vote counts;
-Environmental Protection: environmental measures to keep arsenic out of our drinking water, protect national parks, national forests, and national monuments, clean up toxic waste sites, and protect endangered species;
-Education Reform: a strong education reform program that requires states to set high standards for every student and strengthens federal incentives to boost low-performing schools and significantly improve educational achievement;
-Energy Bill: a comprehensive, balanced energy bill to benefit consumers, increase domestic energy supplies, promote energy efficiency, and protects the environment;
-Farm Bill: a Farm Bill that includes income certainty for producers, provisions making farmers and ranchers more competitive, an increased commitment to conservation, much-needed help for rural development, and expanded nutrition assistance;
-Emergency Farm Assistance: emergency farm assistance to respond to the deepest agricultural recession in American history;
-Natural Disaster Assistance: emergency natural disaster assistance for farmers and ranchers;
-Judicial Confirmations: confirmed 100 judicial nominees since assuming control of the Senate;
-Department of Homeland Security: legislation to establish a Department of Homeland Security, consolidating the major federal agencies responsible for homeland security into one department;
-Intelligence Authorization Act: an act for intelligence and intelligence-related activities, including the establishment of a National Commission to investigate 9/11;
-Use of Force Resolution: a use of force resolution against Iraq;
Use of Force Resolution: a use of force resolution against those responsible for the September 11 attacks;
-Response to Terrorist Attacks: a $40 billion package to respond to the terrorist attacks and provide for immediate assistance to the people, industries, and communities most affected by September 11;
-USA PATRIOT Act: a comprehensive anti-terrorism bill that provides law enforcement officials the tools they need in the fight against terrorists, while protecting the civil liberties of every American;
-Defense Authorization: a bill to authorize $393.3 billion (the largest increase for defense in two decades), a 4.1 percent across-the-board pay increase, concurrent receipt of retired pay and veterans' disability compensation (the conference report included an enhanced special compensation for military retirees with combat-related disabilities), and funding for nuclear non-proliferation programs;
-Airport Security: legislation to increase security at our nation's airports;
-Support for the Airline Industry: legislation to prevent the collapse of the air transportation system by providing direct payments to the major commercial airlines for losses they incurred as a result of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001;
-Bioterrorism Prevention and Preparedness: legislation to ensure that our public health system will be prepared for bioterrorism attacks and appropriations ($1.4 billion to the Department of Health and Human Services and $3 billion to the Department of Defense) for their prevention;
-Border Security: legislation to strengthen border security;
-Port Security: legislation to improve port and maritime security;
Pipeline Safety: legislation to enhance the safety and protection of pipelines;
-Dam Safety: legislation to strenghthen dam safety and security;
Terrorism Insurance: legislation to ensure that businesses can continue to obtain insurance against terrorist attacks;
-Anti-Terrorism: a bill to implement the International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings;
-Trade: Trade Promotion Authority, Trade Adjustment Assistance, Andean Trade Preference Expansion Act, an extension of the Generalized System of Preferences, trade agreements with Jordan and Vietnam, and the reauthorization of the Export Administration Act;
-Foreign Policy: support for expansion of the North American Treaty Organization (NATO) and assistance to candidate countries, authorization of assistance to Afghanistan, and support for democracy and anti-corruption programs in Russia; and
-HIV/AIDS: a bill authorizing an expansion of U.S. efforts to combat global HIV/AIDS.


Keeping the Extreme Republican Agenda in Check




With Republicans in control of the White House and the House of Representatives, Senate Democrats have also had to serve as a check against enactment of measures that don't reflect the values of most Americans. The following are a few examples of Republican proposals that Senate Democrats stopped when Republicans refused to compromise or moderate their extreme views.

Since reclaiming the majority, Senate Democrats have prevented Republicans from:

-Privatizing Social Security and risking its trust funds in the stock market - just as markets were plunging to their lowest levels in years;
-Accelerating future tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans, and further draining the Social Security trust fund;
-Giving Enron $254 million in retroactive tax breaks;
Permanently repealing the estate tax for a few wealthy estates - which would have made tax cuts for America's wealthiest families a higher priority than tax relief for middle-class families;
-Allowing federal funds to be siphoned away from public schools to pay for private school vouchers - which would have diverted $4 billion that is needed to upgrade the skills of one million teachers and provide 5.2 million more children with after-school learning opportunities;
-Weakening the Patients' Bill of Rights;
-Imposing a new $1,500 deductible on health care services for veterans - which would have driven away an estimated 100,000 veterans from seeking care at VA hospitals;
-Outlawing cell research to cure diseases, including Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, diabetes, and spinal cord injuries;
-Taking away rights of victims of medical malpractice, defective drugs, and medical devices from holding health care providers and manufacturers accountable;
-Drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and our public lands;
-Repealing the renewable energy requirement;
Allowing increased logging in our national forests - which would have turned over thousands of acres to logging companies at taxpayers' expense;
-Passing billions of dollars in tax breaks for oil and gas special interests;
-Blocking campaign finance reform;
-Leaving aviation security in the hands of private companies with security contracts awarded to lowest bidders;
-Undermining the protections granted in Roe v. Wade - which would have limited a woman's right to choose; and
-Confirming extremist right-wing judicial nominees.


Democratic Accomplishments in a Republican-Controlled Senate

NOTE: As of press time, the Senate had not considered the conference reports to S. Con. Res. 23, the Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution, and S. 762, the Fiscal Year 2003 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill. This Special Report will be revised after the Senate has acted on these conference reports to reflect any changes from the Senate-passed versions of the bills.

Although Republicans gained the majority in the Senate in the 108th Congress, Senate Democrats have continued the fight to make a difference for all our families. Highlights of Democratic accomplishments in the 108th Congress include:

increasing combat pay and providing other support for the National Guard and Reserves;


ensuring tax fairness for military and foreign service personnel;


extending the long-term solvency of Social Security;


preventing the Bush Administration from moving forward with drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge; and


providing additional funding for the No Child Left Behind Act.


On a number of issues, Democrats and Republicans have worked together to pass important, common-sense legislation. On other significant issues, however, Democrats have had to overcome Republican opposition to secure passage of legislation.

A Budget Set-Aside To Pay For Conflict In Iraq

On March 21, 2003, the Senate passed a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Feingold that reduces the tax cuts in the budget resolution in order to set aside a reserve fund of $100 billion to cover costs of war and reconstruction. Four Republicans joined Democrats in a 52-47 vote to support the amendment.


Military Personnel

Senator Durbin offered an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2003 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill that would have increased combat pay for military personnel from $150 per month (an amount that had not been changed since 1991) to $400 per month, and raised the family separation allowance from $100 per month (a level that has failed to keep up with the increasing number of military families with two working spouses and costly child care needs) to $400 per month. On April 2, 2003, the Senate agreed to the Durbin amendment, but only after Republicans reduced the increase in combat pay to $225 per month and reduced the increase in the family separation allowance to $250 per month.


Enhanced Support For the National Guard And Reserves

On March 26, 2003, the Senate passed a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senators Landrieu and Durbin that provides $3 billion to the Department of Defense in Fiscal Year 2003: $2 billion for an increase in combat pay and family separation allowance, and $1 billion for immediate Guard and Reserves equipment needs. The amendment passed unanimously, 100-0.


Armed Forces Tax Fairness Act

Democrats strongly supported passage of H.R. 1307, the Armed Forces Tax Fairness Act, in a 97-0 vote on March 27, 2003. The bill allows military and foreign service personnel to choose not to count time stationed overseas against the time limits for tax-free sales of their homes, provides National Guard and Reserve members with a deduction for overnight travel expenses related to military service, permits the exclusion of military death gratuity payments and of amounts received under the military housing assistance program, among other benefits. Passage of the bill represents a victory for Democrats, who included it among their legislative priorities at the beginning of the 108th Congress.


Humanitarian Food Assistance For Iraq

On April 3, 2003, the Senate passed a 2003 Supplemental Appropriations bill amendment introduced by Senators Kohl and Leahy that provides $600 million for international food aid programs and specifies that $155 million be used to restore funding for previously approved Fiscal Year 2003 programs. Twenty-two Republicans joined Democrats in a 67-26 vote for the amendment.


Veterans Health Care

Senator Graham offered an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2003 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill that would have provided $375 million to the Veterans Administration (VA) Medical Care Account for the purposes of caring for returning service members who are separated or released from the military. Current law requires that the VA provide such care for two years. The level provided for in the Graham amendment was based on the percentage of veterans who sought VA health care and benefits following the 1991 Gulf War, multiplied by VA's average per patient cost of care. The Senate accepted the amendment on April 3, 2003, but Republicans reduced the amount to $155 million and prohibited the money from being available after the end of Fiscal Year 2003.


Partial Concurrent Receipt For Veterans

On March 25, 2003, the Senate agreed to a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Reid to increase funding to allow concurrent receipt of retirement pay and veterans' disability compensation for veterans with service-connected disabilities at 60 percent or higher, phased-in from 2004 to 2007.


First Responders

Senator Feinstein offered an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2003 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill that would have provided $200 million for interoperable communications equipment for police through the COPS program, and $200 million for communications equipment for firefighters and emergency departments through FEMA. The Senate approved the amendment on April 3, 2003, but Republicans reduced the levels to $109.5 million for each account.


Nuclear Security

Senator Reid offered an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2003 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill that would have provided $400 million for nuclear security, including $300 million to track and account for fissile nuclear material overseas, and $100 million to enhance security at federal nuclear facilities in the United States. After the Administration included no money for these programs in its request, the Appropriations Committee added $55 million for international programs and $43 million for security at domestic facilities. Democratic support resulted in the Senate approving on April 3, 2003 an additional $95 million for the international programs and an additional $42 million for domestic nuclear security.


Port Security

Senator Hollings's amendment to the Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution that provides $1 billion per year for two years for port security was accepted. Senate Republicans refused, however, to pay for port security out of the tax cut (which a bipartisan majority of the Senate determined was too large) and insisted on cuts in other discretionary programs before agreeing to the amendment on March 21, 2003.


Small Pox Vaccine

Senator Bayh offered an amendment to the Fiscal Year 2003 Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill that would have provided $340 million to help state and local public health officials with the cost of administering smallpox vaccines. The Senate approved the amendment on April 3, 2003, but Republicans reduced the level to $105 million.


Social Security

On March 25, 2003, the Senate passed a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Breaux that re-directs $396 billion from the resolution's tax cuts into a reserve fund to increase the long-term solvency of Social Security and limits the tax cuts protected by reconciliation instructions to $350 billion. Three Republicans joined Democrats in a 51-48 vote to support the amendment.


The Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

On March 19, 2003, the Senate passed a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Boxer that stops the Bush Administration's effort to put drilling in the Arctic Refuge on a fast track. Eight Republicans joined Democrats in a 52-48 vote for the amendment.


Unemployment Insurance Extension

On January 7, 2003, the Senate agreed to extend jobless benefits to 2.8 million unemployed workers through the end of May 2003. The bill, introduced by Senator Clinton and Senator Nickles, will give unemployed Americans an additional 20 weeks of benefits and the economy $7.25 billion in stimulus.
Expanded Health Coverage For the Uninsured

On March 25, 2003, the Senate agreed to a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Kennedy that increases funding for coverage of the uninsured from the $50 billion currently included in the budget resolution to the $88 billion recommended in the President's budget.


Funding For the No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act

On March 25, 2003 the Senate agreed to a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senators Murray, Kennedy and Harkin that re-directs $2 billion from the budget resolution's tax cuts to increase funding for the No Child Left Behind Act.


Individuals With Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), School Construction And Modernization, And After-School Programs

On March 25, 2003, the Senate agreed to a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Levin that raises revenues $4.7 billion over ten years by ending the use of offshore tax havens (tax advantages for corporate inversions and closing the Bermuda reinsurance loophole). Half of the resulting funds were directed at deficit reduction and half to restoring funding for education programs, including IDEA, school construction and modernization, and after school programs.


Pell Grants

On March 21, 2003, the Senate agreed to a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senators Kennedy and Dodd that increases funding for Pell Grant Aid by $1.8 billion. This amendment will increase the maximum Pell grant from $4,050 to $4,500.


After-School Programs

On March 26, 2003, the Senate agreed to a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Boxer that provides $400 million to restore funding for after-school programs and that includes Sense of the Senate language to ensure that the number of children in after-school programs does not decrease.


The Workforce Investment Act

On March 25, 2003, the Senate voted to restore $678 million in proposed cuts to federal workforce training programs administered under the Workforce Investment Act of 1998 (WIA). This Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment, introduced by Senators Cantwell and Corzine, will save approximately 65,000 job-training opportunities. Three Republicans joined Democrats in a 51-48 vote for the amendment.


Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program

On January 21, 2003, the Senate agreed to a 2003 Omnibus Appropriations bill amendment introduced by Senator Reed that directs the President to release $300 million for the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program. Forty-six Republicans joined Democrats in an 88-4 vote for the amendment.


Transportation

On March 21, 2003, the Senate passed a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Bond and Senator Reid that supports the Federal-Aid Highway program and the Federal Transit program. The amendment increases budget authority for highways and transit by $59.6 billion in Fiscal Years 2004-2009, and provides outlays of $48.4 billion in Fiscal Years 2004-2013. Thirty-two Republicans joined Democrats in a 79-21 vote for the amendment.


The Charity Aid, Recovery, and Empowerment (CARE) Act

On April 9, 2003, the Senate passed S. 476, the Charity, Aid, Recovery, and Empowerment (CARE) Act, on a bipartisan vote of 95-5. The CARE Act provides tax incentives to encourage charitable giving, and largely reflects the plan requested by President Bush in his Fiscal Year 2004 budget. Notably, the legislation allows for a standard deduction of up to $500 for cash donations to charities, tax-free roll overs of Individual Retirement Accounts (IRA) to qualified organizations, and enhanced deductions for farmers making food donations. The bill is paid for by cracking down on corporate tax shelters.


Support For Rural Counties To Reduce Out-Migration

On March 25, 2003, the Senate agreed to a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Dorgan that assists rural counties facing high levels of out-migration, by providing a venture capital fund to make equity investments in start-up and expanding businesses located in high out-migration rural counties, and by repaying up to 50 percent of college loans (up to $10,000) for recent graduates who live and work in such counties for 5 years.


Amtrak

On March 21, 2003, the Senate passed a Fiscal Year 2004 Budget Resolution amendment introduced by Senator Byrd that increases spending on Amtrak by $912 million, offsetting the amount with a reduction in the budget resolution's tax cuts. Three Republicans joined Democrats in a 51-49 vote for the amendment
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hedgetrimmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. see thread .... "'It's Time to Get Over It' "
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I don't know whether to laugh or cry
Among the "accomplishments" cited:

- Use of Force Resolution: a use of force resolution against Iraq

- USA PATRIOT Act

- Defense Authorization: a bill to authorize $393.3 billion (the largest increase for defense in two decades)

- Airport Security: legislation to increase security at our nation's airports (i.e. CAPPS II)

- Defense Appropriations: $355.1 billion to pay for ongoing military activities, an increase of $34.1 billion over last year

- Debt Limit: passed the debt limit increase requested by the President in order to avoid default and preserve the full faith and credit of the United States (and increase the deficit to historic proportions)

- Education Reform: a strong education reform program that requires states to set high standards for every student and ... blah, blah, blah (Didn't even have the guts to indentify this as NCLB.)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Your candidate hasn't gotten many votes on that list of woes

I don't imagine that he will get many more in the future with his strident rhetoric against the party faithful. Most of us like our party and are proud of their efforts and committment.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Good for you
I'm one of those independent voters the dems supposedly can't win without. Nominate a candidate who is proud of the Patriot Act, the Iraq war, CAPPS II and NCLB and see how proud the dems are on November 3rd.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. We haven't distorted the votes like you have
We can read and reason as well as you. So far, the majority have made their decision for Kerry despite the hysterical misrepresentations from a desperate Dr. Dean.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. What votes, pray tell,
have I distorted?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Don't act like you hold the only interpertation of those votes.

Or that Dean has a lock on rationality. You want a rebuttal?

http://www.johnkerry.com
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Dodge, dodge, dodge
I can see I'm going to have to end my participation in this thread because misdirection and dissembling are no way to have an honest conversation. I'll just leave you with this thought: stand with the republicans on these issues and you'll lose to the republicans (see 2002).
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'm standing with the Democrats on these issues thank you
And I am offended that because I disagree with you that you would label me so. That is the subject of this thread, btw.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. you're kiding...right?
1) That's why in 2002 turnout amongst Dems was low....

2) That's why the number of American's whop identify themselves as Dems has dropped to an all time low, lower than Repugs and independents...


Those "Most of us.." couldn't even name who their Congressperson or state elected officials are....

Don't take uninformed Democratic voters voting based upon polls as some kind of endorsement of the elites who run our party....

And you should remember....nobody liked Edwards and Kerry until the grew a pair after Clark, Dean, Kucinich and Sharpton forced them too.....or has that slipped your memory?

Let's just hope that the spine transplant on Kerry holds after he wins the nomination!

If history is any indicator....don't hold you breath!
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countmyvote4real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. Me thinks you doth protest too much.
I can't believe you or your candidate are still feeling threatened by Dean. Unless maybe there is a there there.

Oh right. Damn, those voting records.

News flash. This is a flag from OUR side. You ain't seen nothing yet.

Fasten your seat belt.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Dean has yet to prove that he can do anything outside of Vermont
Edited on Thu Feb-12-04 01:04 AM by bigtree
Little Vermont. He talks a good bit though. I just hope he is doing all of this sqwaking for the party and not just to get himself elected.

Damn right I feel threatened. What a way to treat the party.


As for seat belts, fasten your own. It's a long way down from the high flying, strident rhetoric the Dean campaign uses to bully and denegrate those they disagree with. I don't imagine you will find much support for that type of destructive rhetoric outside of this board. Good luck with that, though.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. It's a campaign.
It doesn't matter if you are way ahead in the polls. You keep campaigning anyway.

I, for one, am glad Kerry has this quality. In New Hampshire, when the news reports talked about him going out on election day, folks said it was a sign of desperation, that it meant his internal polls showed him behind. But it was a sign of strength, a sign of a fighter who takes nothing, and certainly no voter, for granted. And you will see the same thing in the general election, even if the polls show Kerry way up, he will be fighting to the end.

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. I would vote for Tom Daschle over Dean. Daschle took his lumps for us.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Minority Leader Daschle is a stalwart defender of Democratic values

Democratic Values (From http://www.democrats.org/issues/)

Campaign Finance Reform
Children
Civil Rights
Crime
Defense
Economy
Education
Energy
Environment
Health Care
Immigration
Social Security
Voting Rights
Women
Democrats are committed to:

-Winning the war on terrorism and making our country more secure.
-Protecting your Social Security, pension, and retirement savings.
-Investing in America to create good jobs.
-Cutting prescription drug costs and providing Medicare drug coverage for every senior.
-Improving education by reducing class size with additional, qualified teachers.
-Keeping our air and water clean.

Misplaced Republican Priorities

Republicans have a plan to cut Social Security benefits; provide prescription drug coverage for only 6 percent of seniors; safeguard big corporations rather than workers; cut funding for education; and allow polluters to get away with contaminating our air and water.

Securing America's Future for All Our Families
Social Security

Republicans are spending your Social Security money on tax breaks for special interests, and have a plan to cut your benefits and raise the retirement age with a risky privatization scheme.

Democrats created Social Security and will fight to protect it.

Prescription Drug Costs and a Medicare Drug Benefit

Democrats will halt the skyrocketing cost of prescription drugs for all Americans, and provide a Medicare drug benefit for every senior.
Republicans will protect the big drug companies and have proposed a drug benefit that covers only 6 percent of seniors.

Education

Democrats will work to improve education by reducing class size with additional, qualified teachers.

Republicans have broken their promise on education by making 28 education cuts totaling more than $1 billion, including technology training and after-school classes.

Pension Protection

Democrats will provide real pension protections and impose stiff new criminal penalties for corporate pension fraud.

Republicans tried to give Enron a $254 million retroactive tax cut. They will offer token protections for employee pensions while they coddle the corporate executives who mismanage them.

Air and Water

Democrats will enforce clean air and water laws and ensure that polluters will pay.

Republicans will turn our air and water over to the polluters and force taxpayers to pay the clean-up bill.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. clinton?
:shrug:

I think actually he is refering to Kerry and I have to say that this time I do agree with that assesment.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. He says "once again"
Certainly he means Kerry. Kerry is an evil. Ridiculous.

But he alludes to the past. Who is he indicting? Clinton? Gore, who gave him the early endorsement? Clinton-Gore?

Gore supports him with passion and he comes down on him and the party like a rock. You think Sen. Harkin is ok with the trashing of the party? Read his statement. Dean is alienating the very folks he would have support him. How large is the Dean constituency? Will he be satisfied to have the IWR voters replaced? Can he guarantee that we won't end up with worse? No. He can't, and he takes no responsibility for that in his rhetoric. He would tear down the party to get elected or to further his aims. Disagree with him and you are a republican or corrupt. What a demagogic way to campaign. Totally destructive.

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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
23. 1968 - n/t
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I would take Humphrey over Nixon any day. He would have ended the war.
Edited on Thu Feb-12-04 11:08 AM by bigtree
Johnson knew that and didn't go out of his way to support Humphrey.
But Nixon lied about his 'plan to end the war'.

New Study:
Nixon 'Wrecked Early Peace In Vietnam'
by Martin Kettle in Washington

On the eve of his election in 1968, Richard Nixon secretly conspired with the South Vietnamese government to wreck all-party Vietnam peace talks as part of a deliberate effort to prolong a conflict in which more than 20,000 Americans were still to die, along with tens of thousands of Vietnamese and Cambodians.

The devastating new charge against Nixon, which mirrors long-held suspicions among members of President Lyndon Johnson's administration about the Republican leader's actions in the autumn of 1968, is made by the authors of a new study of Nixon's secret world in the latest issue of Vanity Fair magazine.

"The greatest honour history can bestow," reads the inscription on Nixon's black granite tombstone in California, "is the title of peacemaker." But if the charges by authors Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan are correct, Nixon better deserves to be called a peacewrecker than peacemaker.

At the heart of the new account was Nixon's fear that Vietnam peace efforts by President Johnson in the run-up to the November 1968 US presidential election could wreck Nixon's bid to oust Hubert Humphrey, the Democratic candidate, and capture the White House.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/080900-01.htm
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