DEAN Detractors: You were right, I was wrong!

[Gringo]

I ditched the Dean campaign after the scream. Not because I thought Dean was bad, because I knew he had instantly become unelectable. For better or worse, we all know what the whore media would havve done with the "scream" and his other flubs in the lead-up to the general election. I still wished him well, though. But today, this:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040211/pl_nm/campaign_dean_dc_32

Dean has come out smearing Kerry, the likely dem nominee, as part of a "corrrupt" establishment. Aside from being hypocritical (Dean has taken his share of corporate money), He is slinging mud at the likely nominee, which just smacks of bitterness and disloyalty to me. I liked Dean because he came out fighting against Bush. It's fine to criticize the prevailing DLC way of doing things, but attacks on other democrats (who he would have to work with in the Senate if he were elected) is just counterproductive and desparate. He may mean well, but he's going about this the wrong way. He should be campaigning positive, and save his bile for Bush. I will be glad when he and Sharpton have fallen to the wayside.

I will campaign for the democrat, whoever it is. Apparently, the "democrat from the democratic wing of the party" is to pure to think about such things.

I wish I had picked up on whatever it was that made the Dean detractors mistrust him early on. I'm glad he's out of the running now.

[Bombtrack]

Dean's tax plan made him a hell of a lot more unelectable than the "scream

and coming from Vermont. And I don't think he was ever "unelectable" but he was unelectable in all probability, for all intents and purpouses.

[Nederland]

44. Agreed

Nobody that promises to raise everybodies tax can possibly win.

[Norquist Nemesis]

51. We can't have it both ways

We can't complain about the Bush tax cuts then turn around and say we don't support Dean for raising taxes when, in fact, the "raise" is a repeal

[Bombtrack]

53. Just like Mondale proposed a repeal, and Bush1 repealed

Every candidate is proposing raising taxes from what is law now, but with Edwards and Kerry it's not on the middle and working class. Not on people who could really use the money. No matter how many times Dean repeats his misleading talking points, the fact remains that his proposal would be no more popular than Mondales

[Norquist Nemesis]

61. So you're with Bush

even though cutting taxes during war time (a first), an astronomical deficit (a first), and continued job loss (in record numbers) are something you support? While I agree that if you're going to cut taxes it should benefit the middle class and not the top 1%. However, with where we are right now, there's a much better chance of fighting to repeal all the cuts then compromising than there is beginning with compromise and losing the whole thing.

[Nederland]

62. Not asking to have it both ways

I'm merely asking for what Kerry and Edwards have proposed--leave the working class aspect of the tax cuts alone. More importantly, you can try and argue all you want the what you are doing is "repealing", but voters won't buy it. The bottom line is that they've already received their tax cut and if you take it back they will consider it "raising taxes". Otherwise we could return to the days 90+ rates on the rich and simply say we were "repealing" the JFK tax cut. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[graelent]

55. Dean's tax plan was one fo the reasons I liked him

Dean's tax plan is the best thing for the country and he is willing to fight for that, instead of compromise before the fight has even begun.

[Stoker]

1. I never understood the problem with the "scream"

Heck, I'm angry too! I want to see more candidates, and citizens, screaming!

Everyone should be screaming.

Stoker

[WillyT]

7. But Stoker, Don't You Understand ???

You have to be the flavor, texture, look, and taste of Ovaltine to be President of these United States!!!

My god man, we can't have anything resembling REAL emotion out there. We've been called unstable sissys long enough, dontcha know?

We're gonna show those Republicans that we're 'real men' too. Ain't it grand?

:puke:

BTW Stoker - Welcome to the DU!!!

:hi::kick::hi:

[cavebat2000]

2. Did you defend Dean when Kerry was smearing him?

An honest question that could reveal some hipocrisy

[Gringo]

6. Yes, I did. Things are diffferent at that stage of the game.

Dean is shooting himself in the foot, smearing the guy who has won most of the primaries, and is the likely nominee. He obviously does NOT want a position in a Kerry administration.

[Eloriel]

12. I'm sure he doesn't -- I certainly wouldn't

I don't even want a Kerry administration. Dean is 100% right on about Kerry. 100%.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. Want a position in a Kerry administration? Why on earth would he?

Good lord, LOL!

Ps... I missed the times you defended Dean against Kerry. Could you post a link?

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. Screamer or PNACer? Screamer or PNACer? Hmmm, tough choice

not really. I'll stick with the screamer, thanks!

You better read this before you jump on the Kerry bandwagon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=316117&mesg_id=316117

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. Kerry has never taken a dime of AIPAC money

PNAC'ers are usually rolling in it...Dean has.

[KaraokeKarlton]

29. I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you

Kerry seems awfully friendly with AIPAC according to this article:

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Editorials/2002/April%202002/sharon's%20cheerleaders%20in%20Congress%20and%20the%20money%20from%20AIPAC.htm

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. The reference that Al Jazeera uses in that editorial

is a William Sapphire new york times editorial debunked by Salon here

AIPAC'S political contributions:

http://www.wrmea.com/html/aipac.htm


http://www.wrmea.com/archives/june2003/0306036.html

[oasis]

32. If Kerry's a PNACer, why did you wait for Dean to tank before letting us

know? Did he join up within the last month? Please show proof.

[WiseMen]

65. Guess you have secret info that no progressive org has. All score Kerry hi

[DannyRed]

4. In this case

If you would make the effort to read the information made available on other threads, it certainly seems to me that Dean does, in fact, have a point.

Osama add ---> 527 ----> Skadden Arps ---> Gross ---> Jones ---> Gibbs ---> Toricelli

Strong connections to Kerry and to Gephardt...who is now endorsing Kerry and who directed many caucus votes into the Kerry camp on Iowa Caucus day...

Sometimes things really are as simple as they seem, and sometimes people who seem paranoid really DO have enemies out to get them.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

15. 2 Dean donors also contributed to that ad - does that make Dean

guilty also? Apparently, there were people who did not realize that the money they donated was being used for this ad.

[Cheswick2.0]

43. no he didn't contribute to the add...what a thing to say

someone who gave a small amount to his campaign also contributed to that add. That is how it is done in DC. You hedge your bets.

[Guaranteed]

5. SO sorry to see you go.

Enjoy your candidate that isn't as bad as Bush!

[Gringo]

9. Voters are flocking AWAY from Dean in droves

My disillusionment has nothing to do with that. If by some miracle, Dean pulls off the nomination, I'll be solidly behind him, but at that point, it will be Bush's election to lose. Dean is a dream opponent now.

[KoKo]

18. Well, some of us still think what he says is important and hope he hangs

in there for the long haul. It's too early to annoint any frontrunner, but since the campaign was "frontloaded" it makes it very difficult for anyone to stay in. However, being that it's frontloaded, your choice to support Kerry at this stage is yours to make. I just wonder why you now feel dissing Dean should be important for you. Especially since many of us still support him, and don't feel a need to "jump ship."

It wouldn't matter for the few you would turn away from him here anyway.

I'm here in NC and can't vote until May. So, turning me away from Dean wouldn't do you much good. :shrug:

[Gringo]

22. You should vote as you please

And it's less about trying to sway people from Dean (he is NOT doing well as it is). I'm just acknowledging that the detractorrs were right, IMO. I stuck with Dean, even after most DUers had gone ga-ga over Clark. I did not make Dean unelectable. He did it himself, with his foot-in-the-mouth pronouncements and now, even moreso, with his bitterness.

[eileen_d]

35. As a Dean "detractor" (more like a non-believer)

let me welcome you to the living hell of posting on GD2004 with a non-favorable opinion of Dean. My view is pretty close to yours (and it wasn't implanted in my brain by a Kerry Konspiracy, LOL).

So I thank you for posting this. :toast:

[Zomby Woof]

36. living hell?

I LOVE posting in here. But then, I am evil.

Thanks Gringo. :toast:

[eileen_d]

37. Hey, I never said it was a BAD "living hell"

How bad can it be if there is a ZombyWoof?

;)

And I admit, I am addicted to the place in a semi-evil way.

[Cheswick2.0]

47. yup, because it has been such a freaking treat to be a Dean supporter here

cry me a river

[Zomby Woof]

58. They should treat people with respect

And the rest of us will return it in kind. I am not a Kerry supporter, nor was I a Clark supporter, but I never engaged in tussles with them because we treated each other with respect. I tried doing the same with Dean supporters, but all I got was derision, sarcasm, expressions of doubt and disgust with my sincerity, my hand bitten off with olive branch destroyed, etc., ad nauseum. After watching them eat one of their own yesterday for expressing less than 100% religious faith in him, I stand vindicated.

I don't turn the other cheek for that kind of behavior, and neither do many others, or perhaps being a Dean supporter would be a more positive experience for DUers.

Disclaimer: I have Dean supporters as friends on DU, and they damn well know I am not talking about them. They don't even post in this forum, which is a testament to their wisdom, lol.

[ShaneGR]

8. His rhetoric is over-the-top at this point

He does himself a disservice at this point. Unless he has some sort of master plan to defeat Kerry by endorsing Edwards (Which would give him a LOT of power within the Dem Party). If not, Kerry's a lock and he's just giving Bush ammunition.

[DannyRed]

14. Bush already has plenty of ammo.

Dean is doing just what he should be doing, and the only people who are complaining about it are people who were saying that Dean should just be "sucking it up" because frontrunners need the trial by fire and blah blah blah...and now they are getting the same treatment and suddenly its unfair.

Whatever.

Not to mention the dirty pool.

Dirty pool of the SAME EXACT SORT that kerry decried when it was done to Max Cleland.

Go figure.

[JVS]

52. Yeah, they had their chance to play nice

This frontrunner needs more fire!

[liberalmike27]

10. I

It's funny that you don't think they will do the same to any Democratic nominee. Kerry will get "Gored" by the media. They love Bush, as he's willing to allow full media merging, probably up to 100%, that way, Republicans, or anyone they choose can be inserted into the willing minds of people like yourself, even more completely.

Dean is quite electable, and has far more integrity than any candidate. He's the only one who's honest, and tells the truth about the deficit, not being able to have our cake and eat it too. Democrats, and our country will start paying very soon, for neglecting this incredibly important issue, and voting for their ideological choice.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

17. If Dean is the only candidate who is honest - we are in REAL trouble.

n/t

[iowapeacechief]

34. Actually, Dennis Kucinich is the only Democratic candidate...

...who tells it like it is about "guns and butter"--the only one willing to put the Pentagon on a diet. That's really telling the truth!


http://www.kucinich.us/issues/militaryspending.php
"I don't agree with other Democrats that we can continue to increase military spending and still deliver on our domestic agenda for middle class and working Americans. We can't. That's voodoo budgeting. I propose trimming the Pentagon budget by 15% or $60 billion."

[dionysus]

11. great choice to jump on the bandwagon

Kerry voted for

IWR
Patriot Act
No Child Left Behind
Tax Cuts for Wealthy
no show on Medicare vote

about to vote against gay marriage

he'll stand up to * on.... um... on.... uh...

[RichV]

19. Good Lord

NCLB was Kennedy's bill and had bipartisan support. Is that part of the anti-Kerry meme now too?

[WillyT]

13. Glad To See You Enjoying Your Hobby, Man !!!

Damn, you're pretty good at it too!

:eyes:

[Duder]

16. Kerry should confess his sins...

...and ask for forgiveness.

[w13rd0]

21. ossama ad

kerry can f'off

[vision]

23. I agree with much of what is quoted

First he sided with the president on the war ... now we find he is more like President Bush than we ever imagined," Dean said. "This is exactly what we don't need in Washington. I got into this race because I wanted to stand up and give the Democratic Party some backbone and character."


He added: "If we have to become like Republicans in order to beat them, then I think the Democratic Party needs to change fundamentally, and I don't think John Kerry is capable of changing the political culture in Washington."

I will vote for the nominee but if it is Kerry I will not be excited about it. IMO Dean has got it correct. We need somebody willing to stand up for us. We should not become like Republicans, the truth alone, if repeated over and over will do. The biggest problem that Dems face is the 50% or less voter turn out.

Most of us will not make over 200,000 in our lifetimes. We deserve somebody who will speak up for us. Kucinich has been consistent about it. Dean has been doing it but many others talk the talk but I doubt them walking the walk.

[shance]

24. And you wouldnt do the same thing if someone viciously attacked you

by less than ethical means?

Anyone with a reasonable spine would of course name the lie and the wrong doing.

Why is it okay for Kerry to attack unfairly and Dean to fight back fairly?

If there is a need to conform and be included in the "winner" crowd, which is only "winning" because of manipulative, dishonest stunts Kerry has played during the primary and prior,

NOT because Kerry is a great candidate.

That says it all right there.

A great and electable candidate is Howard Dean. We are going to learn that soon enough either through wising up, or either by sheer unconcious fear driven behavior.

But so many of you have bought into establishment hoax of this primary.
Kerry is NOT the electable candidate folks!! WAKE UP!!!


It can be bought for Kerry, but he will never in my opinion earn it.

Howard Dean earns everything he does, AND he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

So he doesnt have anything to prove. He just is a good person.

If being part of the temporary 'in' crowd is your top priority, then gringo honey, you just knock yourself out.

[arewethereyet]

25. better late than never

welcome back to the real world

[poskonig]

26. Dean's never getting my support back.

I've been a soft Kerry supporter for a while, but the flamethrowing from Dean and many his supporters helps no one except Bush at this point. I don't see the Edwards people doing this stuff, and he is Kerry's greatest competition at this point.

So much for the "Democratic" wing of the Democratic party.

[shance]

27. Its pretty obvious that he never really had it to begin with.

n/t

[paulk]

31. LOL

Since he's done so well, it's pretty obvious you're right!

[poskonig]

64. I've given Dean more money than I've given Kerry.

:kick:

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

28. Dean is playing murder-suicide now

It's no wonder the Rove machine was so anxious to see Dean as the opponent. They could see he was an amateur and he'd be his own worst enemy.

The last couple weeks Dean has gone over the top, making a complete ass of himself and trying to take Democratic candidates as hostages with him.

And people wonder why the Democratic machinery want nothing to do with him.

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[Edge]

38. Way to go!

Dean is out of the race now. He hurt himself. The media never hurt him. All he can do is make pithy attacks to other candidates. It's sad, really.

Support Edwards or Kucinich now! They need all the help they can get!

[K8-EEE]

39. Dean Is Behaving Badly Now

I'm really disappointed in him too. There's no constructive purpose in it. I'm just glad he didn't win the primary.

[stickdog]

40. Dean has some trouble with the truth.

He tells it way too much to be a successful politician on the national stage.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

41. It's all about instinct. Good for you

Dean is so lacking in credibility now I don't think it matters what he says. Who cares? I don't. Except that, as with the Osama ad, his true followers believe Kerry was behind it, and he is alienating future Kerry support.

[Cheswick2.0]

45. Dean is not lacking in credibility...kerry is lacking in character however

I think I will stick with the guy who yelled at a pep rally and reject the one who wants to bring the "liberal" version of PNAC down on the rest of the world.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

49. Sure. That Wisconsin "ploy" was sweet. eom

[Cheswick2.0]

42. Kerry is the king of special interests

He beat everyone else in the senate for that title and he won if fair and square.

PS...when was it you supported Dean?

PPS..was it bitterness and disloyalty when kerry smeared Dean? The osama add was smear.

[enki23]

46. did you bother asking *why* dean said what he did?

have you read anything about the toricelli bit, how he's alleged to be fundraising for kerry? have you read about the bin-laden/dean ad he partially funded?

you may not agree that it's *sufficient* cause to say what he said. but if you were running for president, and you were pretty sure another candidate tacitly endorsed an ad placing your picture alongside bin laden's, for whatever reason, you might be a tad pissed off.

best to consider all the realities of the situation before starting an "i'm sorry for wanting dean to be the nominee" thread. not only for that reason, but... also because it's extremely unlikely anyone here truly cares enough about what you used to think that you need to "apologize" to them for it.

[farmbo]

50. Dean's only attacking Kerry on issues which won't hurt him in the GE.

Bush* can scarcely go after Kerry on contributions from special interests (Enron's biggest recipient)or dirty campaign tricks (S. Carolina 2000).

Plus, the attacks just happen to have some validity to them in light of Kerry's unholy alliance with Torricelli.

[progressiverealist]

54. I am becoming less and less fond of Dean as time goes by

I do believe that Dean was treated unfairly by the media and slimed by some of the other campaigns. I also think we owe a large debt of gratitude to Dean for being the one who helped many other democrats "find a spine," so to speak.

However, now is not the time to be sliming the likely democratic nominee if you are truly interested in ousting Bush. As I see it Dean can continue to be a positive force in the Democratic Party, stay in the race if he wants, and continue to promote his anti-Bush pro-America message. Or, he can essentially become a 2004 version of Ralph Nader.

I hope he chooses the former.

[w4rma]

56. Kerry is reaping what he sew.

When those despicable smear ads were run, Dean was in Kerry's current position.

[DoNotRefill]

57. So if Pat Buchanan somehow got the Democratic nomination....

you'd blindly support him?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't part of the purpose of the primaries to help the party select a good candidate to run? And if a candidate has huge skeletons in his or her closet, and other severe political liabilities, doesn't it behoove us to know about them BEFORE we give the person in question the nomination?

However much of a Blue Meanie you think Dean is being now, trust me, it's a pale, pale example to how Kerry will be treated by the Republicans.

Suppose there was a candidate running for the nomination (this is a hypothetical, I'm NOT referring to Kerry) who was videotaped raping Mother Theresa's corpse on the Senate floor while a mariachi band played "tiptoe through the tulips" right next to him and a bunch of schoolchildren who were watching the act while fellating each other at the urging of the candidate. Should the other Democratic candidates for the nomination not bring that issue up because it's negative? Because I guaran-fucking-TEE that it would be brought up by the republicans in the general election...

[TheDonkey]

59. Dean's tax plan, his scream, and his general yelling

made him unelectable.

Glad to hear some people on DU are having their eyes opened about Dean.

[Darth_Kitten]

71. Yes, he woke up many a person

so I've heard. :eyes: Too bad.

[mrgorth]

60. No backbone

We are learning that Kerry and Gep were tied into the Osama ad but because it's Febrary Dean is supposed to be nice now? Fuck that. Kerry wanted war. He's got it.

[WilliamPitt]

66. This is a war?

Dean has been beaten on every front, in every engagement, even in the ones he retreated from. Not much of a war.

[DoNotRefill]

67. Coming from a guy who works on the Kucinich campaign....

that's pretty funny... :crazy:

[WilliamPitt]

69. DK is not fighting 'a war'

so...

:)

[mitchum]

63. kick for wisdom

[dsc]

68. apparently

you don't get Larry King Live, the last two Presidential debates, or any of the other places where Dean has said time and again he would vote for the nominee.

[Darth_Kitten]

70. This Dean-bashing is getting tiresome.

n/t