Dean called Kerry "part of the corrupt political culture."

[Octafish]

Then Dean calls Kerry "the lesser of two evils."

So, does Dean mean Kerry is corrupt? If so, how?

I, for one, would like to know exactly when Kerry in his life has ever demonstrated a lack of character. I can't think of an example and I've followed the guy's career since Operation Dewey Canyon II.

If Dean has proof, he should show it. Otherwise, he should shut up and go back to the ski slopes.

-- Octafish


Dean Says He Favors Edwards Over Kerry

Wed Feb 11, 4:05 PM ET

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

EXCERPT...

"What we now see is that John Kerry is part of the corrupt political culture in Washington," Dean said in an interview. He said he came to that conclusion after learning that former New Jersey Sen. Robert Torricelli contributed to an independent group that ran ads that used images of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) to question Dean's ability to combat terrorism if elected president.

Torricelli, who was forced out of office over ethical lapses, is now raising money for Kerry's presidential campaign. Dean said disclosures that money was also raised by backers of Dick Gephardt (news - web sites) show Washington insiders are trying to derail his candidacy.

"The link is unassailable," Dean said. "The same fund-raiser who was ethically challenged and had to step aside from a Senate race because of that raised money from the same donors to support both Senator Kerry and his ... political action group.

"I intend to support the Democratic nominee under any circumstances," Dean said. "I'm just deeply disappointed that once again we may have to settle for the lesser of two evils."

CONTINUED...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040211/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_68

[XanaDUer]

1. Oh brother.

Dean said that?

Dean does have habit of shooting his mouth off.

:puke:

[adadem]

6. You ain't kidding

The more he spouts off the more voters turn away. I'm just glad I figured that out before I gave any more money or wasted any more time.

[curse10]

2. I've learned to expect nothing else from Dean

but this kind of crap.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

3. I agree with Howard Dean

[seventhson]

5. me too

[HFishbine]

8. Me too

What's the problem?

[Octafish]

11. The problem is the proof. There isn't any.

That makes what Dean said a lie. If Kerry wasn't a public figure, it would be slander.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

77. Those are words, allegations, theories and whatever else ...

... can be spun. None of that is proof. None of that is even evidence. All of what that is, though, is talk.

[liberalmike27]

100. Shiney

Hard to convince the shiny, happy, people, jumping on the bandwagon. Where is that bandwagon, I'm going to abandon my convictions and jump on that Kerry bandwagon, I'm going to ignore all the evidence, and vote for the most embedded guy in Washington, just because the media has directed me to do so.

Minds washed clean of conviction, by the media sponge.

Dean 2004, stay in long, stay in strong.

I wish he'd lay out some more stuff, I can't say I'd blame Dean for anything he might do at this point, Kerry wasn't shy about dissing Dean when he was ahead, why is it any different now? It isn't, that's your answer. Kerry needs to be tested now, because 200 million is starting to come down the pike, and he's liable to be washed right way.

You think the media doesn't know Kerry has tons of records to go through, and trash so completely? Just follow the media, they'll steer you to the most easily beaten one.

[Octafish]

9. Why?

Just because Dean says so?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

15. no because I did my research

Kerry is tied to special interest groups. If you and i remember Kerry has received the most special interest money in a span of 15 years than any other senator etc.

[Octafish]

Show me a quid pro quo.

There isn't one. Kerry sided with the Democrats 95-percent of the time, as rated by the Americans for Democratic Action. That's a Wellstone-like voting record, the "Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party."

[ProudToBeLiberal]

35. but siding with the democrats isn't necessarily a good thing

for example most democrats voted for the patriot act, NCLB, IWR, 87 billion dollars for Iraq war, trillion dollar tax cut.

[Octafish]

67. And if siding with the Republicans is a bad thing...

... That means both sides are evil. Thus, they are the same. An interesting perspective, but not mine. There is a fundamental difference between the two parties.

There are also fundamental differences between the two candidates. Dean is a guy who talks a lot about what he'd do. Kerry is a guy who's actually done stuff to make this a better couintry.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

108. Dean has a track record

Dean's walked the walked. Nearly 99% healthcare for kids 18 and under etc.

[Octafish]

124. Most of that was done by his GOP predecessor.

In office, Dean closely followed all his GOP policies.

Meet Howard Dean

The Man from Vermont is Not Green (He's Not Even a Liberal)

by MICHAEL COLBY

EXCERPT...

"EP under Governor Dean meant Expedite Permits, not Environmental Protection," proclaims Annette Smith, the director of Vermonters for a Clean Environment.

SNIP...

"Dean's attempts to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud," Smith told Wild Matters. "He's destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while constantly meeting with the development community, and he's made the permitting process one, big dysfunctional joke."

Those are not the words you'd expect to hear from an environmentalist if all you relied on for your news was the mainstream press. The Burlington Free Press, for example, has spent considerable space putting one coat of varnish after another on Dean's tenure, including a rather smarmy salute to his eco-record. The word from those quarters is that Dean is the environment's friend and he's done nothing but anger the business community by slowing development and stymieing growth.

Dean's record, however, shows just the opposite. Remember, when Dean took office there were no Wal-Marts in Vermont; there was no Home Depots; Burlington's downtown was dominated by local stores not the national chains that now rule the roost; there were 36% more small farmers in existence; there were no 100,000-hen mega-farms; and sprawl wasn't a word on the tip of everyone's tongue.

CONTINUED...

http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html

[ProudToBeLiberal]

109. I said necessarily

not indefinitley

[drfemoe]

118. Americans for Democratic Action

May I assume you mean the *lifetime* voting record rating rather than "sided with the Democrats"?
This one?
ADA releases an annual voting record based on 20 issues we consider to be the most important each year. Each Member of Congress receives 5 points for each vote on which he/she voted with us, and does not receive 5 points if he/she voted against us or was absent for the vote. The total possible score is 100%, a perfect Liberal Quotient. The following are the year LQ scores and Lifetime for each Senator in this state.

Kerry has a lifetime rating of 92%.
His rating for 2002 was 85%.
http://www.adaction.org/lifetimesenmassachusetts.html
Senator Harkin has a lifetime rating of 92%.
His rating for 2002 was 80%.

They also have this:
ADA Progressive Poll

The Votes Have Been Counted And The Winner Is.............
Howard Dean 29.7%
John Kerry 29.4%
Dennis Kucinich 24.9%
John Edwards 7.8%
Wesley Clark 5.6%
Al Sharpton 1.3%
Joe Lieberman 1.2%
http://www.adaction.org/PresPoll.html

Interesting organization.
I think their findings are on voting standards for a few designated issues. We don't know what the issues were/are.
It says nothing that would absolve Kerry from the observations Dean is sharing.

[Nicholas_J]

55. Well I did my research:

MARCELLA LANDELL, et al., Plaintiffs, NEIL RANDALL, et al., Plaintiffs, and VERMONT REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE, Plaintiff v. WILLIAM H. SORRELL, et al., Defendants, and VERMONT PUBLIC INTEREST RESEARCH GROUP, et al., Defendant-Intervenors
Docket No. 2:99-cv-146
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF VERMONT
August 10, 2000, Decided
August 10, 2000, Filed


...Reports also described allegations that Governor Dean vetoed a pharmacy bill after collecting $ 6,000 in campaign contributions from drug companies...



...The influence of out-of-state donations: "Outside money is one of Howard Dean's specialties. Of the $ 312,290 the governor raised for his 1996 election, 65 percent came from out-of-state contributors: labor unions, Washington lawyer-lobbyists, the health care industry, to name a few of the special interests." n13 For the 1994 election "Dean, for example, received more money from major pharmaceutical manufacturers during the reporting period ($ 11,000) thin he did from people and companies located in Burlington ($ 10,460)." n14 One editorial said, "it's no mystery why out-of-state contributors pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into Vermont campaigns. ... They're trying to buy influence. But the cost is public trust.".

Bryan Pfeiffer, Dean Angry About Pharmacy Veto Criticism, News Story, Rutland Herald, June 16, 1994


http://www.brookingsinstitution.org/dybdocroot/gs/cf/headlines/cases/LandellvSorrell.DOC



Howard Dean's top career patrons are Time Warner, $65,225; Microsoft Corp., $25,100, and IBM Corp., $23,250.

http://www.benningtonbanner.com/Stories/0,1413,104~8676~1880270,00.htm ...

Dean raises money from energy sources
February 27, 2002

By David Gram

ASSOCIATED PRESS


ASSOCIATED PRESS

MONTPELIER — When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.

Nearly a fifth of the roughly $111,000 collected in its first months by Dean’s presidential political action committee, the Fund for a Healthy America, came from people with ties to Vermont’s electric utilities, according to a recent Federal Elections Commission filing.

It should be no surprise. Dean and utility executives have had a long and friendly relationship.

One donor who gave Dean’s PAC the maximum amount allowed — $5,000 — said he did so because he and his wife “agree with many of the things the fund is talking about — fiscal conservatism, education, health care.”

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html


CLF seeks details of Dean administration’s talks with utilities
March 11, 2002

(from the State section)
By SUSAN SMALLHEER Southern Vermont Bureau

MONTPELIER — The Conservation Law Foundation will file a freedom of information request with the Dean administration today to find out how many contacts it has had with Vermont utility executives over the pending sale of the Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant.

Mark Sinclair, senior attorney with the environmental group, said Monday that recent news reports about the financial contributions made by Vermont utility executives or board members to Gov. Howard Dean’s presidential campaign political action committee were “too much of a coincidence.”

Sinclair said the new offer from Entergy Nuclear of Jackson, Miss., last week wasn’t substantially better than the original bid, and doesn’t really address the serious concerns raised by the state earlier this winter about local control and other economic issues.

“The department didn’t get anything,” he said.

Sinclair compared it to the negotiations with Vice President Dick Cheney by energy companies that are now subject to an investigation by the General Accounting Office.

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43924


Dean, Cheney And Energy Secrecy

Dean's Vermont re-election campaign received only small contributions from energy executives, but a political action committee created as he prepared to run for president collected $19,000, or nearly a fifth of its first $110,000, from donors tied to Vermont's electric utilities.

One co-chairman of Dean's task force, William Gilbert, was a Republican lawyer who had done work for state utilities. At the time, Gilbert also served on the board of Vermont Gas Systems, a subsidiary of Hydro Quebec.

Many state legislators, including Dean's fellow Democrats, were angered that the task force met secretly.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/26/politics/main590311.shtml

Some Republicans back Dean
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

Led by South Burlington attorney William Gilbert, a core group of 11 Republicans said they believed Dean has proven his ability to lead the state in a fiscally responsible direction and for that reason, and his nine years of experience, he is their choice over GOP candidate Ruth Dwyer

He said the committee would support Dean's candidacy by reaching out to other moderates in the party as well as helping Dean with fund-raising.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

{b]Campus cash crucial to candidates
UC faculty, staff are among Democrat Howard Dean's biggest contributors

By Josh Richman, STAFF WRITER

Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean and President George W. Bush are big men on campus when it comes to fund raising, a campaign finance watchdog group has found.

And no U.S. university or college is friendlier to Dean than the University of California, the Center for Responsive Politics found in a study of presidential campaign contributors from the education sector. UC system faculty and staff had anted up $51,124 for the former Vermont governor by Sept. 30, more than twice the amount given by donors from the next-closest university on the list -- Harvard, at $24,150....

Dean collected almost $719,000 from education interests through Sept. 30, ranking that sector third most-lucrative behind retirees ($1.6 million) and lawyers ($932,000).



Among other contenders for the Democratic presidential nomination, education is the 10th most lucrative sector ($325,915) for U.S. Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass.; eighth ($174,324) for U.S. Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C.; 15th ($107,420) for U.S. Rep. Dick Gephardt, D-Mo.; ninth ($207,640) for U.S. Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn.; third ($119,898) for retired Gen. Wesley Clark; third ($69,809) for U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio; 16th ($3,250) for former U.S. Sen. Carol Moseley Braun; and 18th ($2,990) for the Rev. Al Sharpton.

http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,1413,87~11268~1870457,00....

Monsanto's Legal Thuggery

by Michael Colby

Monsanto's legal team began 1998 by taking on the State of Vermont and its attempts to pass a very weak rBGH law that merely required Monsanto to register with the state and make its client list available to state authorities so "rBGH-free" claims could be verified. The company responded by publicly threatening to sue the state and stop selling its products in Vermont if the bill passed. Governor Howard Dean, feeling the lobbying heat from Monsanto and its rBGH-addicted farmers in Vermont, came to Monsanto's defense and pulled the plug on the measure by threatening a veto. The legislature then went on to further soften an already spineless bill by removing the section that required the drug manufacturer's client list. Eventually, after yet another legal threat and a "closed-door" meeting with Governor Dean, Monsanto backed off and let the near-meaningless legislation go into effect.


http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/24/monsanto.html

Besides money, Dean continually intervented for special interestes, greasing the wheels, as it was put by one corportation...

Who's the Real Howard Dean?
As Vermont governor, the liberal firebrand was a fiscal conservative with close ties to business

Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations. When Canada's Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. wanted to build a new manufacturing plant on 700 acres of Vermont farmland in the mid-'90s, for instance, Dean greased the wheels. Husky obtained the necessary permits in near-record time. "He was very hands-on," says an appreciative Dirk Schlimm, the Husky executive in charge of the project.

And when environmentalists tried to limit expansion of snowmaking at ski resorts, "Dean had to show his true colors, and he did -- by insisting on a solution that allowed expanding snowmaking," says Stenger. IBM (IBM ) by far the state's largest private employer, says it got kid-gloves treatment. "We would meet privately with him three to four times a year to discuss our issues," says John O'Kane, manager for government relations at IBM's Essex Junction plant, "and his secretary of commerce would call me once a week.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_32/b3845084.htm

Does Howard Dean Have An "Enron" Problem

Did then-Gov. Howard Dean's administration approve a $180 million sweetheart deal to the boys at Entergy, at the same time utility executives were pumping campaign contributions into his then-fledgling campaign for president?


The Dean Administration's Public Service Board last year gave thumbs up to the sale of the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant to Entergy Corp. Conservationists opposed the deal, and the board rejected a rival energy company's bid to buy the plant a year earlier.

What was different about Entergy's bid to buy the plant that hadn't already been rejected by the Dean Administration? Not much, says Vermont's Conservation Law Foundation - except critical campaign contributions to Dean's presidential campaign at the time the deal was under review.


Vermont utility executives got complete access to the Dean Administration's Public Service Department to pressure a deal on Vermont Yankee that will give the utilities some $25 million for their corporate coffers, and lock ratepayers into high-priced energy costs for the next ten years. This sweetheart deal was struck just after certain utility officials made political contributions to the Governor's presidential bid. Meanwhile, environmental groups didn't get the time of day.

And as usual, ratepayers get stiffed. For years to come, Vermont ratepayers will be forced to pay above-market power costs - more than $100 million -- to Entergy to buy back Vermont Yankee power, while power prices drop everywhere else in New England.

http://www.latefinal.com/archives/000899.html


hmmm, pot meet kettle.

Dean's speciality reportedly special interest money...


However, a closer examination of Kerry record on special interest money is:

John Kerry Ranks 92nd out of the 100 Senators in Contributions from Special Interest PACS and Lobbyists

Bush Raised More Lobbyist Funds in 2003 than Kerry Raised in Career



Spokane, WA– While Senator John Kerry has run and won four Senate races over the past 20 years, he ranks about the bottom of the list of current Senators in contributions from PACs and lobbyists.


“George Bush accepted more money last year from lobbyists than John Kerry has in his career,” said Kerry campaign Senior Advisor Michael Meehan. “John Kerry’s vote is not for sale, period. He is the only current Senator to run four campaigns without taking a dime of special interest PAC money.”


“John Kerry is one of the most successful Democrats over the past two decades and one of the party’s top fundraisers,” Meehan added. “Therefore it is understandable that Kerry, who has raised over $45 million from individuals in 20 years, would lead any particular sub-grouping of individual contributors.


“What is stunning is that despite his successful long service in the Senate, 91 other Senators beat Kerry in contributions from PACs and Lobbyists.”

http://www.politicsus.com/020304jkd.htm


According to the Center for Responsive Politics:

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean has raised $25.6 million so far, and has $12.4 million on hand. Among his top contributors are Time Warner ($61,000), Microsoft ($30,000) and IBM ($25,000). Dean's own campaign staffers have contributed nearly $21,000 to their boss' campaign, making the group of them his sixth biggest donor.

Two of Dean's top five donors -- and 10 of his top 20 -- are groups of university employees. University of California employees attained the highest ranking of any organization, with more than $63,000 in contributions to Dean. Dean has raised money from the professors and staff of at least 450 colleges and universities. Those in the education field have contributed a total of $852,000 to Dean's campaign, behind only the legal profession ($966,000).

One-fourth, or $3.1 million, of Dean's itemized contributions has come from California. Fourteen percent, or $1.8 million, was raised in New York state. Dean has collected nearly $930,000 from Massachusetts and $693,000 from his home state of Vermont.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2003/1016-05.htm






Dean Now Courting Party Insiders
Strategy Evolves As Support Grows
By Jim VandeHei and Paul Farhi
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, December 4, 2003; Page A01


Former Vermont governor Howard Dean, who has bashed the Washington establishment throughout his presidential campaign, is increasingly courting this city's lawmakers, lobbyists and political operatives to help cement his status as the man to beat for the Democratic nomination.



Dean has convened a regular meeting of Washington insiders and lobbyists, who “meet every other week in the downtown law offices of Hogan & Hartson to plot strategy with key Dean advisers. The group is getting bigger by the week.”


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A33342-2003Dec3?language=printer


The same organization that Dean tapped for info on Kerry, reports Dean being the highest recipient for money from Heath Care Special Interests and Lobbyists.

As a result of Deans deals with the energy industry, Vermonters pay energy costs that are 50 percent higher than the national average

[ProudToBeLiberal]

57. Now give me kerrys record

I'll expect you back in 5 hours? I know theres too many but see what you can do

[Nicholas_J]

92. Actually Kerrys real rating:

John Kerry Ranks 92nd out of the 100 Senators in Contributions from Special Interest PACS and Lobbyists

Bush Raised More Lobbyist Funds in 2003 than Kerry Raised in Career

Spokane, WA– While Senator John Kerry has run and won four Senate races over the past 20 years, he ranks about the bottom of the list of current Senators in contributions from PACs and lobbyists.

“George Bush accepted more money last year from lobbyists than John Kerry has in his career,” said Kerry campaign Senior Advisor Michael Meehan. “John Kerry’s vote is not for sale, period. He is the only current Senator to run four campaigns without taking a dime of special interest PAC money.”


“John Kerry is one of the most successful Democrats over the past two decades and one of the party’s top fundraisers,” Meehan added. “Therefore it is understandable that Kerry, who has raised over $45 million from individuals in 20 years, would lead any particular sub-grouping of individual contributors.



http://www.politicsus.com/020304jkd.htm

Kerry is in the lowest ten percent of Senators who have received money from PAC's Lobbyists, and other Special interests.

Again, Dean twists the information to suit his particular needs, as the statements about his out of state money. Far far more out of state contributions than his campaign says.

[HFishbine]

58. Kerry supporters: Out-of-state contributions? Don't go there.

Kerry accepted over $6,228,310 in out-of-state contributions for his senate race. Dean's $203,000 pales in comparison.

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/geog.asp?CID=N00000245&cycle=2002

[Octafish]

81. What's that prove?

It costs money to go up against William Weld for the Senate seat in 1996. It's probably cheaper to run for governor of Vermont.

Anyway, using the same level of logic employed by many Kerry detractors, who's to say Dean didn't get all that money from the developers who profited from the four Walmarts that opened up in Vermont during his tenure. How many mom-and-pop stores and how many jobs would disappear, do you suppose? A lot.

See how easy that is? That's also a hypothetical situation.

[Nicholas_J]

82. Not so:

One-fourth, or $3.1 million, of Dean's itemized contributions has come from California. Fourteen percent, or $1.8 million, was raised in New York state. Dean has collected nearly $930,000 from Massachusetts and $693,000 from his home state of Vermont

http://www.commondreams.org/news2003/1016-05.htm

[HFishbine]

99. Fact Check

We were comparing a Kerry senate race to a Dean gubenatorial race. If you want to jump to the presidential races, then we can compare:

Dean's $3.1M from CA to Kerry's $3.5M from CA.

Dean's $1.8M from NY to Kerry's $2.4M from NY.

But that's kind of pointless, one expects contributions from across the country in a presidential race.

The post that started all this implied that Dean was, well, I'm not sure of the implication, frankly. However, since it noted Dean accepting just over $200,000 from out of state contributors, I thought that whatever nefarious intentions that implied, it would certainly be more egregious for Kerry to have accepted over $6M from out of state contributors for his senate run.

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/geog.asp?id=N00000245&cycle=2004

[drfemoe]

119. It got confusing when

Senator Kerry's record was compared to President Bush's.

It was implying that Dean is guilty of something, so that means Kerry can't be or if he is it doesn't count. I think.

Using confusion to confuse the opponent is very effective. In confusing, of course.

[Duder]

61. Don't forget this one...

KERRY RESCUES FRIENDS IN PEACETIME, TOO

JAKE TAPPER, ABC NEWS - 'As Kerry's front-runner status has become further solidified, media reports have pointed out various actions by Kerry that they say benefited his campaign contributors. ABC News has learned of a story involving Kerry taking legislative action that benefited a campaign contributor: Predictive Networks, a Cambridge, Mass., tech firm co-founded by Paul Davis, although he is no longer directly associated with the company.

"It absolutely is a special interest," said Davis, a Democrat who generally likes Kerry. "Make no mistake about it — we were in that business to make money, not to perform any kind of social service." . . .

Predictive Networks — now under new management and called Predictive Media — monitors what Internet and cable consumers are viewing and targets advertising accordingly. As one might expect, such surveillance has raised privacy issues. In 2000, the U.S. Senate debated whether Internet and cable customers should get the opportunity up front to reject such surveillance, a position known as "opt-in," supported by consumer groups and codified into legislation by Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C. Predictive Networks' CEO, Devin Hosea, met with Kerry and his staff on July 25, 2000.

One day later, Kerry introduced a bill that would have enabled companies like Predictive Networks to automatically be allowed to monitor what consumers are viewing — placing the onus on customers to "opt-out" of surveillance if they wanted. Making it more difficult for consumers to "opt-out" is generally believed to benefit the industry side of this debate, since the pool of consumers being monitored would be larger, making it more lucrative for those marketing ads to those viewers — like Predictive Networks.'
...

[Octafish]

97. Good try.

ABC tells only one side of the story, William Casey's side. The rest, they leave out or diminish. Here's what they buried at the bottom of page 2:

.... When they ceased doing business together, Davis and Hosea did not have an amicable parting. Davis says the Kerry fund-raising issue was one of many; Hosea would not comment. Davis is quick to say he likes Kerry, is not supporting any of his rivals, and would vote for him for president should he become the Democratic nominee...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/WorldNewsTonight/kerry_fundraising_040209-2.html

[Duder]

131. Beyond try...

One day later, Kerry introduced a bill that would have enabled companies like Predictive Networks to automatically be allowed to monitor what consumers are viewing — placing the onus on customers to "opt-out" of surveillance if they wanted.

[The Magistrate]

80. Nonsense, Sir

The only "research" you could be citing refers to individual contributions from registered lobbyists, and totals over fifteen years to a trifling sum by the standards of the game. The Public Citizen organization from who's figures the swill was culled has denounced the thing. Each Senator raises millions for each campaign, throughout the whole term of office. No one can campaign without money. It is past naivite to put this before us as a serious complaint.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[ProudToBeLiberal]

91. of course no one can campaign without money

But look at dean most of his money comes from the average people. About 75 dollars average.

[The Magistrate]

95. Not Running For Governor, Sir

When it comes to raising funds, the thing is what it is, and it is foolish to pretend otherwise. The fact is that no Democrat receives nearly the quantity of special interest funds all Republicans do.

Best to keep the focus on the misdeeds of the enemy, and not to do his work for him, particularly not in the interest of a fading and discredited figure....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[HFishbine]

104. The lesser of two evils argument, ma'am

"no Democrat receives nearly the quantity of special interest funds all Republicans do."

This is exactly what Dean is talking about and some of us "get it."

[The Magistrate]

106. If You Seriously Want To Trot That Chestnut Out, Sir

Why some people have difficulty opposing a greater evil is beyond me, particularly when their refusal to effectively oppose it, and their insistence on exaggerating a less egregious thing, is certain to result in the triumph of the greater evil. It makes them, in effect, the allies of the greater evil, for all the protestations of purity of heart that follow hearing that unavoidable, if lugubrious, conclusion.

"If a man will insist that two and two do not make four, I know of nothing in the power of argument that can stop up his mouth."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[HFishbine]

107. It's easy to understand, ma'am

Implicit in the call to oppose the greater evil is the acknowledgment that the alternative is also evil. No thanks. But good luck with that.

[The Magistrate]

110. Want A World Without Evil, Do You, Mr. Fishbine?

Do let us know when you find one....

It will be an awfully still place, that is sure. Evil shrouds action as smoke shrouds fire, and it is very dificult to do anything at all without doing evil in some degree. To hold oneself aside from striking effective blows against a great evil lest one sully one's own hands with the needs of opposing it is moral bankruptcy.

"Saints should be judged guilty till proved innocent."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[ProudToBeLiberal]

112. but can't be strive?

I mean if we don't try then how can we as a people be born of noble stature ever have the inherent worth to fulfill our vision.

[The Magistrate]

114. 'Born Of Noble Stature', Sir?

We are clever monkeys, that is true, but that is also about the limit of it. The word noble means a person who's profession is violence, living off the wracked toil of peasantry, and giving himself airs over his better diet, and the activities that amuse his leisure.

You have, as do we all, all the inherent worth this moment you will ever have, and may fulfill any vision you may have, providing it does not require any other person to comply with it....

"We should have had Socialism long ago, were it not for the Socialists."

[drfemoe]

120. He's running for President, not Governor btw ..

eom

[bornskeptic]

96. You call that doing your research?

Maybe you should have researched this. Of course it probably isn't posted on DFA.com. In case you don't know anything about Common Cause, Public Citizen, and PCAF, you may need to do a lot more research.

Feb. 3, 2004

Kerry Ranks Near Bottom in Senate on Money From PACs and Lobbyists


Statement from Nick Nyhart, Executive Director of Public Campaign Action Fund; Chellie Pingree, President of Common Cause; and Joan Claybrook, President of Public Citizen

According to a Jan. 31 Washington Post story, presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) is beholden to the very special interests he says he will dismiss from the White House if elected. The Post based its erroneous conclusion on an analysis of the money Kerry has raised from lobbyists while he was a senator.

But the Post paints an inaccurate picture using an arbitrary statistic. A more accurate indicator of whether a candidate has ties to special interests is whether that candidate receives political action committee (PAC) as well as lobbyist money, and if so, how much. An analysis of PAC and lobbying contributions combined shows Kerry is near the bottom in receiving such funds when PAC money is averaged from 1993 through the present and lobbyist money is averaged from 1990 through present. Further, the lobbyist money that Kerry has taken in the presidential campaign is less than 1 percent of his total money raised.

Not only has Kerry historically refused to take PAC money, but his record shows that he been a leader for more than a decade in full reform of campaign financing, advocating for clean public money not only for presidential but also congressional campaigns.

(more)

http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1639

[Darranar]

10. I do as well...

Kerry, like the other "electable" candidates, Dean included, are part of the "corrupt political culture" of this country.

[Guaranteed]

20. .....

You're ABB? Man, you're ripe for a particular candidate that you can believe in.

[Darranar]

25. Yes, I am ABB...

the lesser of two evils is better than the greater.

[The Magistrate]

86. Well Said, Mr. Darranar!

Good to see you up here, my friend! This has our old dungeon beat all hollow for shot and shell, eh?

"To a bloody war and a sickly season!"

[Darranar]

4. He omits "and I" after Kerry's name.

[Octafish]

28. Good observation, easy for a Kucinich supporter to see.

As both candidates have been part of the US government for a while. My contention is that Kerry has actually attempted to do something about the corruption, bipartisan as it is.

Kerry is the one who outted the corrupt BCCI bank and its tentacles to the highest levels of power in the United States -- Jimmy Carter's White House, Clark Clifford, Jackson Stephens and of course, all BCCI's myriad ties to the Reagan-Bush administrations and the Bush Organized Crime Family.

Supporting my side are the facts. For example, during the Iran-contra hearings, a time when Kerry exposed the drug running by Nicauraguan contras "terrorists) and Americans John Hull, Ollie North and in the White House. So, the powers-that-be in Congress kept Kerry off the investigation. They didn't want a "firebrand" about. The biggest beneficiary was George Herbert Walker Bush, ex-CIA head, vice-president and father of the current occupant.

[Darranar]

34. Kerry's record on Iran/Contra is one reason he is high on my list...

(#3), but his votes for NAFTA and IWR bother me greatly.

[Renew Deal]

7. Dean needs some moderator warnings.

Great, Kerry is corrupt. Can we use that one at the convention.

[Gringo]

12. Dean is barreling towards obscurity

I'm so grateful for the "scream". I'm more and more convinced that he would have lost.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

19. You do know that the Media intentionally made it big?

ABC apologized same with CNN.

[Gringo]

41. Of course I know. It doesn't matter.

Coming from where Dean was coming from, Dean had to be nearly perfect. He showed an astounding lack of media savvy, and it was not the first time.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

45. or you can interpret that he isn't a fake

that he is honest. You know that he isn't spinning things

[drfemoe]

122. That's not exactly what the media said about their

production and overplay of the event which seems so weighty in your mind.

"where Dean was coming from" happens to be exactly what Kerry has started repeating. Dean is Kerry's *model*. At least during the primaries. If you never paid much attention to Dean, you might not know this. Dean supporters hear it repeatedly. Why would Kerry be using Howard Dean's issues platform, and even slogans? I can think of a couple of possibilities. But I would rather hear your opinion.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

125. It would if there was proof. There isn't even evidence.

Thanks for the link, though.

[frustrated_lefty]

14. Dean calls a spade a spade? eom

[Darranar]

21. And conveniently omits the fact that he is one as well.

[frustrated_lefty]

44. No sell

Dean never said he was for the war AND against it.
Dean never said he was for No Child Left Behind and against it.

It takes a particular type of person to sell that trash.

[Darranar]

47. Dean supported the Iraq war...

until he saw it as politically convenient for him to stop doing so.

With his vote on record, Kerry couldn't do so. That is the major difference between the candidates.

[frustrated_lefty]

56. Get real

his vote on record is mostly "absent."

[Guaranteed]

16. Corrupted can also mean "weak and decayed."

While I don't think that Kerry is corrupt in the traditional sense of the word, I do think that he's gotten far too comfortable in his political career to make any serious changes in the system, which clearly need to be made (more than anything else). He has no leadership skill, nor the desire for it, and so far hasn't even really said anything about what he'd do if he moved into the White House. Of course, that's his M.O. He blows with the winds of the media, always making sure that he has an out, never taking a stand on anything. He's all image- but, most politicians are, I guess.

[Octafish]

127. I agree with what you said, but not about Kerry.

I don't think the guy's perfect, but he is as good a person as we'll get in politics. That said, the smartest lawyers I know are professors. They don't practice. The best legal practitioners I know wouldn't explain what they do to a class if they had to.

BTW :I disagree about your evaluation of Kerry's character and stated policy positions. They guy does have leadership skills -- he didn't run when he was shot, he pulled people out of the water or attacked the enemy, personally. In the Senate, he went after the crooks from BCCI to Ollie North, drug runner for the GOP. Recently, yes, he's cooled it. He has to in order to get elected.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[girl gone mad]

18. How dare Dean..

tell the truth!

[PretzelWarrior]

24. I'm sure if he was viable we'd be seeing dirt about him

but he is even more "over" than rainbow suspenders or 8-track tapes.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

22. And hyperbolic shit like this is why people aren't voting for him

The negative tactics hurt him and backfire on him and he just doesn't know when to STFU.

Dean is playing a game of murder-suicide with the Party. Just like an abusive mate -- if I can't have you, nobody can have you. Despicable.

[Maddy McCall]

51. Yep...especially on the murder-suicide point.

[agingdem]

23. Remember...

Anyone here remember Nader saying that their was no difference between Gore and Bush? So Howard Dean is taking a page from Nader's notebook?!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

27. but that depends on the premise

you're assuming that kerry will be the nominee

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[agingdem]

29. So...

if Kerry is the nominee you will what?...vote for Bush?...vote third party?...not vote?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

36. well we have many options

we can write in, not vote,etc. sometimes one has to think outside the box

[KaraokeKarlton]

37. I'm writing in Howard Dean if he's not the nominee

and voting for him if he is. Regardless of who the nominee is, I will be voting for Dean. And even if Dean had never entered this race, I STILL wouldn't vote for Kerry. I would never have been interested in the race at all and would have just stayed home in November. I don't go out to vote against someone, I only go out to vote FOR someone I believe in. :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Never got a dime of AIPAC money so I doubt it

[Darranar]

42. What does AIPAC have to do with this discussion?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

48. remember we're talking about how corrupt kerry is

AIPAC is a big part of that unless one thins AIPAC is a good thing

[Darranar]

54. I DON'T think AIPAC is a good thing...

but this sub-thread is about PNAC, not AIPAC, and I don't see the connection.

[Eloriel]

68. The connection is that the PNAC plan fits very nicely

with the Likudniks' dream for the ME.

Edit: whether or not they're formally aligned isn't IMO all that important. The ideologies mesh.

[Darranar]

74. There is actually a very important difference...

AIPAC is (radically) pro-Israel. If tommorrow Sharon declared his opposition to the US occupation in iraq, the AIPAC position would change accordingly.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. Check the AIPAC funds sent to PNAC'ers

Usually if one is a PNAC'er you will see scads of AIPAC cash floating their way.

[Darranar]

85. Okay, that's perfectly reasonable.

[Eloriel]

65. AIPAC money often gets bundled in nice, discreet,

far less traceable little bundles. Just ask Denise Majette (who defeated Cynthia McKinney in her 2002 primary race) or Earl Hilliard (who got defeated in the same way in AL in 2002), and no doubt many others.

Too, AIPAC seems to be an organization that takes out its revenge on you, and maybe doesn't reward you if you tow the line.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

101. Now There, Ma'am

Is a source widely known for the depth of its insight into the ins and outs of politics in the United States. It is as essential to understanding that subject as the Oakland Tribune is to following the succession manouverings within the Saudi royal family....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTASRDS!"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

113. No and it's debunked right here

The reference that Al Jazeera uses in that editorial
is a William Sapphire new york times editorial debunked by Salon here

AIPAC'S political contributions:

http://www.wrmea.com/html/aipac.htm


http://www.wrmea.com/archives/june2003/0306036.html

[The Magistrate]

115. But It Works So Well At Cards, Ma'am...

This straight face of mine has got me into trouble before....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

102. your link doesn't go anywhere

But an AlJazeera editorial is your proof??

Just go to APAc's site. IT was listed the other day..no Kerry donations.

As for bundling, Dean is doing it.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[hellhathnofury]

87. All the spamming made me cave in,

damn you GrovelBot!

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[killbotfactory]

32. Kerry's and Gephardts fingerprints are all over the Osama ad

Which basically says "elect Dean and the terrorist win"

If Bush or Rove had the same ties to the ad, we'd be calling for their heads. But since it's Kerry, oh it's just Soooo friggin ridiculous what Dean is saying, blah blah blah.

Fuck Kerry. I agree with Dean.

[Maddy McCall]

33. This is why I wish he would concede; he's doing more damage than good.

He questions everyone else's political affiliation, but by the damage he is doing, I think it appropriate to question his, because if he is a Democrat and cares anything about this party, he wouldn't spend so much time trying to destroy it.

It seems like Dean is in the race for Dean and Dean alone. This kind of statement makes him appear more egomaniacal than ANY candidate I can recall in the past couple of decades.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

Dean is in this race for the people

the establishment is different from the people.

[Maddy McCall]

50. Yeah, you just keep on telling yourself that...the cliche will become

transparent soon enough for you.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

52. proof that he isn't doing it for the people?

back it man

[frustrated_lefty]

63. Here's transparency

you cats insist on a guy who 10-20% of the party rejects. My wife doesn't watch politics at all. She wasn't keen on Dean, but she saw Kerry had the lead and flipped.

She DEMANDED we move out of this country if Kerry is the nominee. I have to agree. Our kids are now studying british curriculum.

Is that transparent enough for you?

[Maddy McCall]

66. Like you said, your wife doesn't watch politics at all.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

72. exactly from a person who is neutral

that is why her opinion is highly valued though every one's is. She hasn't been exposed she's a regular person from a regular perspective

[Maddy McCall]

73. "exposed"...LOL!

[ProudToBeLiberal]

78. what's so funny?

or ae you talking about janet jackson being exposed? well I guess that is funny but that's kinda getting old...

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

93. And you cats insist on a guy that 80-90% of the party rejects.

Have a safe trip.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

88. Apparently not. Or he wouldn't be playing murder suicide

now and letting all his supporters down. They are leaving in droves, and he knows it. He can't do the people any good if he can't stay in the game, and he has failed miserably. What he's doing now is despicable.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

39. Dean is right about Kerry

What's the problem here?

[killbotfactory]

46. We have to treat Kerry with kid gloves... for the good of the party....

Apparently...

:eyes:

[Eloriel]

71. Yeah, it was only Dean who needed to be savaged

by his own party AND the GOP AND the media just to make sure he could withstand the abuse and go on to win. That can't be allowed to happen to Kerry.

Don't worry -- it won't. Not until (and unless) he's the clear nominee.

[Armstead]

49. Anyone think Washington isn't corrupt?

If so, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

53. lol nice one

[TheDonkey]

59. Dean is imploding and trying to take everyone down with him

it's disgusting. I guess he was first out with negative campaigning this season and he wants to be the last.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. He can say that. His gubernatorial records are still sealed.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

64. I guess you aren't up to date

The courts are going through his records and picking things out that are approriate to unseal

[Maddy McCall]

70. That's Dean's line...but if there is new movement in unsealing his

records, please post a link, and not to Dean's statement that it was the court who sealed his records, not him.

Last I recall, he sealed his records with his own executive order.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

76. that's not what i said

you twissted my words. I didn't say the courts sealed his record. If dean unseals his record people are going to clamor that he is being bias. But if the courts do it it's going to be impartial.

[genius]

69. This is the reason Dean's losing votes. He needs to stop doing this

All his attacks on the other candidates are doing are alienating people from him.

[drfemoe]

123. He owes it to the American People

to tell the truth just like he always has. He won't stop telling the truth, and we don't want him to. He doen't expect everyone to agree with him. But a lot of us do.

Kerry hasn't won any primary with more than 50% of the vote, has he? I'm not looking it up right now. If Dean has enough power to destroy the Democratic Party all by himself, then the Democratic Party might be in a little trouble.

[solinvictus]

75. Kerry's a Skull & Bones Man...

Just like El Presidente. Cut from the same cloth, except that Kerry had the guts to go to Viet Nam. I really don't like the media sponsored coronation of Kerry.

[genius]

79. And Dean's taken contributions from Halliburton.

Just like El Presidente.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

83. if I remeber correctly

you said yourself that contributions from "haliburton are from the people who work their, the average joe. But what Bush received are contributions from the CEOs, and executive officers of Haliburton. Their is a big difference

[ibegurpard]

84. I agree with him.

And I would've agreed with someone else who'd said it if Dean never existed.

[corporatewhore]

89. Kerry is corrupt NAFTAGATTWTOIMF Plan Colombia makes me thinkso

[eileen_d]

90. Dean becomes more and more irrelevant to me every day. n/t

[ProudToBeLiberal]

94. hmmm that's weird

he becomes more relevant to me as the days go by. Especially as the death toll in Iraq rises

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progressivebydesign]

105. Oh Hurrah!!

Another Dean bashing thread!!! It warms my heart every time I see the same people attacking Dean, hourly. It just means to me that he is the real thing.. and he's scares the hell out of everyone else. If not, why the constant attacks? I'm just not sure why there is such a movement to destroy Dean personally and politically. I'm so completely tired of it.. you make me want to cry.

[Zomby Woof]

111. Eh, that's just projection

He does that in spades.

[stickdog]

116. Dean is truthful to a fault. (nt)

[aeon flux]

117. Kerry gets a taste of his own medicine

when Kerry was behind in Novemeber
he was shooting his mouth, spouting off at Dean non-stop.

Kerry supporters have such short memories.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

129. That's what Karl Rove wants, too.

The gay marriage issue is going to get a lot of press -- just like when Clinton took office and the issue was gays in the military -- in order to drive a wedge between Democrats. Ask yourself what Kerry has done for civil rights -- of ALL Americans -- and what Bush has done, then make your choice. Unless you want four more years of Rehnquist, Scalia and Cheney, vote for Kerry.

[kstewart33]

126. It is time for Dr. Dean to leave the stage

He is doing neither himself nor the Dem party any good with these antics.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

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[Octafish]

130. BK, you could be talking about Dean.

Thanks for reminding me. The family's membership in the Maidstone Club on Long Island did all that. Then, when he was governor for 12 years, he did the same to his Cabinet, as far as African Americans and Hispanics are concerned.

[bitchkitty]

133. Key word: family -

it's well known that Howard broke with his family on this. And it's also well known that he tried to recruit minorities for cabinet positions but nobody wanted the job.

It's very well known that John Kerry is Bush's fraternity brother. You want Bush's frat brother in office?

[Zolok]

132. A month ago, Governor Dean decried

John Kerry's status as a "Washington Insider"....then virtually in the same breath he denounced the Senator's unimpressive legislative record.
Isn't the mark of a DC insider the ability to procure legislation and other boons and perks?
Guess not....it is a tangled argument IMHO...
***
It is getting close to the time when Governor Dean should hang it up.
There is no shame in that, not for him or his supporters but the bell is about to toll here.
The great and final fight with Bush is at hand and the DU is as divided as ever...
:)
www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com