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Why the Right is conveniently leaving out Kerry's Bronze Star...

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bucknaked Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 06:56 PM
Original message
Why the Right is conveniently leaving out Kerry's Bronze Star...
(repost from locked GD thread)

From his Bronze Star Citation...

"The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieut. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieut. Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged boat to safety..."

BTW, sorry Mods, about originally posting in GD)
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chocolateeater Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. The better to twist Kerry's war record and
deflect criticism of Bush's time(or lack of it)in the National Guard, my dear.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Still wondering...
What exactly does Vietnam have to do with this election?


:shrug:
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Ummm....let's see....CHARACTER?
Shows his character, that he sacrificed his OWN safety to rescue a downed soldier.

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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Character?
Why go back to the 60's and 70's for character? There are examples of character in this century. Examples that might be more relevant to this era.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Exactly--it shows consistent character. What do you think about Bush
snorting coke and going AWOL during the early seventies? Doesn't THAT get a fair amount of discussion here? Don't we look at those issues to show Bush is worthless and amoral?

Then why should we not look far back in Kerry's past to investigate his character?

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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. No reason not to look back at all. My point is:
You don't have to go back to Chimp doing coke to see character flaws. Yesterday's flaws are fresher and more relevant.

As for Kerry, what should be more relevant to me: Kerry pullin' some guy out of the shit in 1970, or Kerry puttin' some guy in the shit in the 2000's?

It's all fair game, but what have you done for me lately?
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Because Skull & Bones ran the Vietnam War
It all fits.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Have you noticed
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 07:20 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
that we are engaged in an war that is quickly becoming an unpopular quagmire - just like Vietnam?


Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq Vietnam Iraq

The more people are reminded of Vietnam, the more likely they will oppose the Iraq war, and the more likely they are to vote against Bush.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. OK
So is Kerry for or against this war?

I'll give you the IWR. His vote meant what he says it meant. Agreed.

I won't give you Saddam's capture and his accompanying words. I won't give you the words he said when war was initiated. And, in contrast, I won't give his comments, as of late, about it being a reckless war.

War starts= FOR
Statue topples= FOR
Post "Mission Accomplished" deaths= Against
Saddam's capture= FOR
500+ dead= AGAINST

Am I missing something? It's pretty damn clear. :shrug:


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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Are you missing something? That would be a personal comment.
So I can't answer that question.

You asked why Vietnam matters. I answered.

Vietnam is one of the reasons Kerry will beat Bush.



The other points you raise in this post, besides being outright false, have been discussed ad nauseum here at DU. Basically, it is the main argument in favor of voting for Howard Dean, and I predict it will be just as successful for Dean in Wisconsin as it was in Tennessee, Virginia, Michigan, Washington, Maine, etc, etc...
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. FOR or AGAINST? A one word answer will suffice.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Life is more complicated than one-word answers.
The American people recognize this, but perhaps the 9% of Democrats in WI who support Dean do not.



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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. I'll take that as meaning you don't know either.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Kerry did not support this war.
In fact, the entire use of IWR, Iraq War Resolution is another complete misnomer, created by the media. THe Iraq War Resolution does not exist. Like all legislation of this nature, it is subject to the interpretation of the person who is using the law. Bush used it to justify stopping his involvement with the U.N. though the legislation itself clearly states that once Bush engaged the U.N. he thne had to leave it up to the U.N. to decide what the appropriate course of action was, unless Bush could prove to Congress and the nation that delay on the part of the U.N. would result in a direct threat to the U.S., its allies, or its interests. That is the way the law reads, It does not authorize war outside of those conditions.

Kerry authorized Bush going to the U.N. to get them to deal with the problems presented by Iraq's continual beaking of international law, international agreements, and U.N. Resolutions. Or to use increaing degrees of force to do so with the U.N. Or finally, if there was a real threat to the United States, its interests, or its allies by Iraq, directly, or indirectly, by Iraq aiding and abetting the groups responsible for the events of September 11th. The "Authorization of the Use of Military Force In Iraq Act of 2002" Authorized these things and these things alone, and in that specific order.

Nothing in the act allowed for without meeting a specific set of conditions. Only if the U.N. could be reported to be failing in its efforts to require Saddam Hussein to abide by the 16 resolutions passed between 1991 and 2002, and this resulting in direct or indirect threat allowed Bush to use any degree of force, up to and including war deemed necessary defend national security, get Saddam to abide by the conditions that were continually being placed on him, and which he continually broke. It was Bush and his administratio who interpreted the conditions in March of 2003 as having come to the point in which the U.N had failed to enfoce its own resolutions, and had reached the stage that the resolution called for, in which the U.N. is found to be unable to support its own resolutions and that this consitutied a threat to the U.S. Democrats did not agree that it dod, nor did they agree that Bush had made the case that the conditions set in the resolution had occurred. Only the meeting of the conditions set in the act authorized the use of force. Democrats did not agree to this either, and as the event have shown, the conditions that Bush claimed warranted the U.S. breaking off meeting with the U.S. and going to war did not exist. Democrats at the time indicated very clearly that they did not agree with the president that the conditions existed, nor did they agree that going to the United Nations had been a failure. It was democrats who insisted that Bush remain engaged with the U.N. and allow the inspectors to continue inspections and finish their reporting cycle which according to other resoluions named in the introduction of the Iraq Resolution, required another three months inspection, under the resolutions establishing UNMOVIC's existance and presence in Iraq. Only then could Bush actually make the first claim that going to the U.N. had failed.

In fact, all that the Iraq resolution did was confirm the terms set in the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, which established that the U.S. had decided that the regime of Saddam Hussein should be removed due to his failure to abide by the terms he agreed to after the Gulf War. Kofi Annan came up with another set of resolutions and agreements from Saddam which intervened and prevented full scale war in Iraq in 1998, but the terms still stood. If Iraq was found to continuue in non-compliance, then regine change had already been authorized in 1998.


While everyon is claiming that the media did Dean, it was Deanho manipulated the media by the continual claim that the resolution gave Bush a "blank check", unconditional support for going to war in Iraq on any terms set by Bush. The media conspired with Dean to create an act which does not exist, called the Iraq War Resolution, the ever mentioned but non existant IWR, which simply does not exist, but was created by the media while it backed up the popular, spectacle, that was Howard Dean while at the height of his popularity, and was most certainly going to be the nominee. As the inaccuracy of Deans statements about the resolution became more obvious to the public, the media hype about the Iraq War Resolution, has become less popular, less sensationalistic. Less beleiveable. While 2 out of 3 people voting in the primaries and caucuses cite opposition to Bush's War in Iraq, citing the vote on the resolution obviously is not detrimental to the candidates who supported it. It becomes obvious that Deans interpretation of the act does not stand up to even the slight scrutiny the voters give it. Kerry's interpretation of the act is most obviously the most beleived interpretation.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. What does the character of a candidate have to do with this campaign
To turn around and take your boat, other boats, and whole lot of other people back into waters laid with mines, and into a lot of people trying to shoot at you and kill you, while moving yourself from a safe position directly into the line of fire to reach over the boat and pull the one person you discovered was left behind in the water speaks a great deal to the kind of person Kerry is. Willing to risk his life and his command to save someone who was lost.

When you have done it yourself, then come and ask what it has to do with an election. What did Eisenhower being a General in World War II have to do with his campaign. Or PT 109 have to do wih Kennedy's election. Plenty.

It is most revealing about the character of the person running while under fire. Any kind of fire. Political or real. The kind of person who doesnt lose his head when losing your head can really result in you losing your head.

When the most dangerous thing you have ever faced is maybe losing an election for a decision you make,no matter how high the office, you are really not making a decision that reveals a great deal about character. you win some , you lose some. When the biggest personal life effecting decision you have to make as a young person is whether you are going to be a rich investment banker, or a rich doctor, I would say that this isnt a great indicator of character either, though deciding to be a doctor in a poor area may be some indication, it just isnt all that life threatening, a lot of doctors do it. If Dean had chosen to remain in a situation in which he gave up private practice in order to work with the poor, I would give him credit for that. He didnt make that choice however. It doesnt reveal much about how a person behaves in the most critical situations

When you make a decision that could effectively end your life, and you make a courageous one, this is a bit more revealing about the kind of person who is running for office. Yes it has a great deal to do with the person we are electing. We has everything to do with this campaign. Much has been made of Bush's going A.W.O.L.
Deans deferment is ignored, or explained away, or simply denied. Even with his deferment, Dean could have chosen to serve in a non military capacity. He could have chosen even to do some sort of community service in lieu of deferrment. He didnt make these choices either.
There were lots of things a person could have done during the Vietnam War, when drafted and deferred, that did not aid to the War Effort in Vietnam, and could have been of service to his nation. Dean did not make these choices either.

This did play in Iowa, according to the exits polls. Deans deferment had an effect on a number of the caucus goers in Iowa. The choices a person has made durng there lives frequently is an issue in every campaign. Certainly Bush's "youthful indiscretions at the youthful age of 37 have been made an issue among democrats. As they rightly should be. Getting arrested for breaking the law by possessing a controlled substance certainly was and is a part of the record of George W. Bush. It should have been in the 2000 campaign, and it still should be.
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Mobius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Just wanna plug Clark here
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 10:22 PM by Mobius
Clark was shot 4 times, and didnt realize he was shot till he reached for his rifle and saw that there were bones sticking out of his hand. He got a Silver Star and has huger cogoles that Kerry :)
*spelling edit*
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lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. This will only get a passing mention among the good puppy
press and everything else will get blown out of proportion. Get ready for a world class beatdown. He's going to be responding to one accusation after another he will never get one explained before the next one takes off.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. "responding to one accusation after another"
Sounds like you are talking about Bush to me.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. Amazingly, I recall some people trivializing his injury...
saying that it was only a minor flesh wound yadda yadda yadda.

He is a hero and we are fortunate to have him on the ticket.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kerry earned a Bronze Star; Bush, a reassignment to ARF
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 07:34 PM by brentspeak
otherwise known as "BARF" to National Guardsmen. Bush impressed his superiors so much that they grounded him by taking away his pilot's license, followed by transferring him to the Colorado ARF unit. An ARF unit exists on paper only, and is a disciplinary unit reserved for slackers and deliquents. The National Guard equivalent of having a dunce's cap placed on one's head.

Brentspeak
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olacan Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. As
an active member of the Air Force one of my tourd was supporting a national guard outfit for a couple of years. In all of the conversations this type of unit was never talked aout. Do you have any more information on it, I do not think this unit ever existed.

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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. This from calpundit's page:
"So what is ARF? I asked Bob Rogers, a retired Air National Guard pilot who's been following this for some time, and what follows is his interpretation of what happened.

ARF is the reserves, and among other things it's where members of the guard are sent for disciplinary reasons. As we all know, Bush failed to show up for his annual physical in July 1972, he was suspended in August, and the suspension was recorded on September 29. He was apparently transferred to ARF at that time and began accumulating ARF points in October.

ARF is a "paper unit" based in Denver that requires no drills and no attendance. For active guard members it is disciplinary because ARF members can theoretically be called up for active duty in the regular military, although this obviously never happened to George Bush.

To make a long story short, Bush apparently blew off drills beginning in May 1972, failed to show up for his physical, and was then grounded and transferred to ARF as a disciplinary measure. He didn't return to his original Texas Guard unit and cram in 36 days of active duty in 1973 — as Time magazine and others continue to assert based on a mistaken interpretation of Bush's 1973-74 ARF record — but rather accumulated only ARF points during that period. In fact, it's unclear even what the points on the ARF record are for, but what is clear is that Bush's official records from Texas show no actual duty after May 1972, as his Form 712 Master Personnel Record from the Texas Air National Guard clearly indicates..."

http://www.calpundit.com/archives/003220.html
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adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. If this is what
Hawk Rogers says then I believe it. He is a very honorable and credible man.
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olacan Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Is
ARF a typo I never heard that, I have heard AFR which is Air Force Reserves, it is not a disciplinary unit. The are or at least were AFR units around the country. The ANG is a state organization, full time employees are state employees during week. As I recall on weekends and during the two week summer camp they are considered military which makes them federal. Also when they are called up they become federal, if a governor needs them he can activate them but then they remain state employees. I retired in 1985 so some details may have changed but I think the basics stayed the same. As I said in another post I spent two years with an ANG unit training them on a new system.
I have no experience with AFR units so I cannot speak to the way they work.
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Mobius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. It was a Silver Star I thought
Im no Kerry supporter, but at least Kerry didn't go AWOL. Press will go after Kerry full throttle, now that they got rid of Clark.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. He got BOTH. Silver and Bronze
The Silver came for the beaching of his boat and taking out the ambush/sniper post.
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