If Hillary was named Hillary Brown, or Hillary Smith...

[dionysus]

would she be polling above Kucinich in this primary race?

discuss, and please give reasons why. :)

[durtee librul]

1. No, I don't think she would

and btw, I still wouldn't vote for her.

She does not strike me as a person that I could trust to get us out of this quagmire we are in. She does not instill a sense of leadership in me and all the 'speeches' and 'conversations' she has had, have not shown me she truly cares about anyone but herself. To paraphrase the late great Ann Richards, she is all hat and no cattle in my book. She just strikes me as another one of 'them' who has been in the public eye and won't accept the fact she has reached the peter principle in her career.

Sorry Hill lovers. I just don't care for her.

[twiceshy]

20. The SOB factor

I tend to disagree with this thread because Hillary is who she is and has in fact been a player in the halls of power just because her husband was Bill Clinton. You can't take that away from her and I think it gives her a ton of experience at the executive level the other candidates just don't have. You can argue that she was never elected and Bill was the "decider", but I think folks generally acknowledge she was a major player in the Administration and certainly party to many important decisions.

Hillary also has what I call the SOB factor (along with Rudy Giulliani (sp)). We are living in dangerous times with a world made more unstable by Bush's policies and I think people will gravitate to a candidate who they feel can face down our enemies and do the unpleasant things needed.

[zulchzulu]

23. There's no way of telling...

Senator Clinton was a Goldwater Girl, as they say in the biz. If she had not met Bill and had continued in her path, she might possibly have made it to Congress perhaps.

Since she is from Illinois (last I checked), she might be as well known as Judy Biggert (Illinois-13th district) or Melissia Bean (Illinois-8th district)... household names in their district perhaps...

It's hard to rewind history and really say anything about where or who'd she be...

[L A Woman]

2. why wouldn't she be?

Would she, in your scenario, be a popular senator who was just overwhelmingly re-elected? Or are you suggesting that she isn't qualified because she was "just a wife" of someone who was?

I think she has more than proven her capacity to be where she is on her own. I don't think most people look at her and naturally think of him. I certainly don't.

[dionysus]

5. lot's of sucessful career politicians vastly popular in their own

regions don't catch on nationally

whether they are qualified or not...

what would set her above the field?

I am from NY, voted for her. She does good work for the VA hospitals here. How does that equate into presidential material?

[Ninja Jordan]

3. Most would concede that her husband is obviously the reason why she is well known.

She very well may have become Senator Rodham if she had never met Bill, though. But no, she wouldn't be the huge force she is.

[L A Woman]

4. Would Bill have become president without HER?

That is the real question.

[dionysus]

6. lol

most likely.

[durtee librul]

9. I don't see her and Bill in the same light

There is just something about her that I don't care for. I know that is really lame, but it's just a gut feeling I have about her.

She can do (and from what I read here and in the papers) and has done very well in NY as a Senator....and maybe she should just stay there.

She is too polarizing (just look at the threads here on du) and I honestly think, even without her last name, the repukes would eat her alive...not that she won't fight back, but she just has too much to overcome being a Clinton.

Now I realize the thread asks about her name NOT being Clinton...that being said, if it weren't I am not too sure she still wouldn't be in AR as a top notch lawyer or maybe even a federal judge. I doubt if she would even be where she is now without Bill. Marriage has it's bennies with surnames.

Sorry, I know that makes me a lame voter, but again, there is just something about her that makes me uneasy. (btw, Kerry did too)

Bill's Bill. Hillary is Hillary and is her own woman. I just don't think that fate would have handed her the same platter without him but since I am not psychic, I guess I really can't say that either.

[dionysus]

10. Would she have even been a senator here without that name?

n/t

[ElizabethDC]

13. Exactly. I don't think you can have one without the other.

The Clintons are a package deal, for better or for worse. I doubt he ever would have been president without her - she has the discipline that he lacks, and I think that she was the one who kept him focused (albeit not 100% focused, of course). He, obviously, has the charisma, while I think they both have the drive and the intelligence. It's simply impossible, though, to imagine one of them without the other.

[Bonobo]

28. Hold on a sec...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[LittleClarkie]

7. Why Kucinich in particular?

Why not ask the question of one of the frontrunners.

Anyway, your question boils down to name recognition. Anyone with name recognition would be polling above Dennis. I'm not sure having run before is enough for the country to remember him as a whole. They barely remembered him the last time. I heard people trying to list off the candidates in 2004 and faltering when they got to him and Ms. Braun.

[dionysus]

8. Ok, not to single out Dennis then.

Without the name, what would you think she'd be polling at?
Would she be ahead of the late candidate Vilsack, or Biden? Barack or Edwards?

[saracat]

11. I think she would.I think she would poll better without the "Clinton baggage".

She was a highly rated valedictorian in college, got a lot od press and was thought to represent her generation of women.She was top of her law school class and appointed to the committee on the Nixon impeachment.She was already on her way when she let marriage and Bill distract her.I think she would have been considered a likely candidate for President earlier if not for Bill.I say this and I am not a real fan of Hillary's.IMHO.

[CTD]

12. If she was a man holding her same views and if "he" wasn't named Clinton...

Everyone on this board would rightfully be calling "him" barely better than Joe Lieberman. "He" would be just another DLC Dem, looking to have "his" corporate funded cake and eat it too.

If somehow Holy Joe Lieberman got the Dem nomination for President, you'd have Holy Joe defenders here on DU asking, "Well, who would you rather have, Holy Joe or George W Bush? At least Holy Joe votes with us *sometimes*." It would be just like what the Hillary defenders are saying today.

She is WRONG on the issues. Period. And, WORSE, she doesn't believe a damn thing she's saying. Everything is poll and focus group tested. There is no passion. Focus groups lost 2000 for Gore. Authentic passion is going to win in 2008. We do not need 4 more years of calculating and divisive politics. Yet that's exactly what Hillary is bringing to the table. And it's for the greater good. It's just to satisfy her own quest for power.

[IndianaGreen]

14. She wouldn't even be in the US Senate

but she might be a successful corporate lawyer in a large city.

[election_2004]

18. Agreed

Nita Lowey would be the junior U.S. Senator from New York right now, and Hillary would be a philanthropist or Democratic organizer in an urban metropolis (possibly Chicago).

[onenote]

21. how can you possibly know that?

If we're going to imagine a world in which Hillary Rodham didn't marry Bill Clinton, then pretty much anything else one might want to imagine would be possible. I don't see any reason not to imagine that Hillary Rodham could've forged her own successful political career.

And if the question is whether the junior senator from NY would poll higher than Kucinich for president, I think the answer is likely yes, no matter who the junior senator happens to be.

[election_2004]

34. Only if she'd moved to NY early on, and established a record there as a private citizen

But she didn't. It's a hypothetical alternate reality.

[Nedsdag]

22. How true!

Lowey wanted to run for Moynihan's seat but was pushed aside by Charles Rangel and other New York Democrats because they needed a "name" to run against Giuliani.

To be perfectly honest, if Monica didn't blab to Linda, Hillary would definitely be the head of a major non-profit organization.

[Tellurian]

15. I could NEVER vote for her if her name was Hillary

BUSH!:spank:

[stuartrida]

16. Doesn't everyone poll above Kucininch?

[FredScuttle]

36. I think Pat Paulsen is polling above Kucinich

[mtnsnake]

17. She polls where she does because she's one of the best politicians in the business

She's earned every point in the polls on her own.

[k_jerome]

19. reminds me of the old gas station attendant joke...

punchline: if i was married to him, HE would be President.

[wyldwolf]

24. Isn't EVERYBODY polling above Kucinich? Doesn't seem the last name has much to do with that.

[dionysus]

25. oh c'mon, you know exactly what I'm asking.

this has nothing to do with kucinich, he's an example.

Would Hillary be the presumed frontrunner, were she not a former first lady? Would she even have gotten into government at all without her family name?

I think you know the answer.

[wyldwolf]

26. yeah, it's the same tired "name recognition" charge spun another way

...already covered, debunked, etc.

[dionysus]

27. debunked, how? links please

[wyldwolf]

33. sure, why not... again!

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/1/30/181044/219

[Adelante]

29. I tend to think yes

She is very strong and accomplished in her own right. If she'd had a different husband I don't think it would have made her a different person or less of a politician.

[fujiyama]

30. No she likely wouldn't

If Ms. Brown or Ms. Smith had won a NY senate seat, she'd likely be just some Democratic senator, with a mediocre voting record - like a Cantwell or a Landreu (OK, Cantwell isn't as bad as Landreiu but they're both not known to the average person).

But then again, who would have won a senate seat in '00? Maybe JFK Jr. would have run then...Interesting what-ifs...

[AtomicKitten]

31. Hillary has an impressive curriculum vitae.

Just hating her isn't a reason to disregard that.

[DeepModem Mom]

32. As Hillary Rodham, her Wellesley classmates chose her as commencement speaker --

she must have been mighty impressive.

[FredScuttle]

35. Yeah, and if his name was Dennis Clinton

He'd still be a hobbit-like loon who's unknown to 85% of the voters and a goof to the 15% who do know him.

Why is he running again? Is he looking to trade up his wife?