What does it mean to be centrist or leftist?

[question everything]

We are quick to use labels that mean different things to different people.. unless, of course, there are manifestos someplace from which people quote, behaving like Limpback dittoheads.

Here is where I am coming from, as a start:

I accept the role of a government to provide basic necessities to all citizens. This means food, shelter, medical attention, education and jobs and decent retirement.

Above that, I don't have any problems with some who are ambitious, or lucky, to have more, to be, yes, filthy rich. (A disclaimer - we are very much middle class who depend on a regular paycheck for a living).

There are some who favor communism and socialism but who have never lived in countries that practice this, to see what it really means. (Living in communes in this country does not count).

There are many who claim that ours is a police state - while never have lived in a real police state where someone can knock on one's door in the middle of the night, never to be heard off again.

There are some who claim that "adequate" income is $50,000 and every dollar above it should be taxed at 90% rate. I see this as unfair and punitive. Individuals should retain at least 51% of their earnings.

All these, by the way, come from threads on DU.

I support the "live and let live" approach. Whatever you do in the privacy of your own home is no body's business. Plus, living in an ideological society, means that one has to follow these dictum. I find such a living to be stifling and, yes, anti democratic. We should be able to choose the way we live, think, and interact with our families and friends and neighbors - as long as we do not harm anyone, of course.

I am all for a personal responsibility. Parents are responsible for their children. and if a daughter dresses like "a slut" - it is not the fault of the media promoting Brittany and Anna Nicole and the rest of them.

Parents, not teachers, are responsible for the way their kids behave and learn and their belief system. There are many private parochial schools that would love to instill a parent's "value system." Schools should concentrate on teaching and on counseling - as needed.

I do believe that the US sometimes has to be the policeman of the world. We've done this before and when it was successful - everyone cheered (most, at least). I do want us to intervene, military if we have to, to help the people of Darfur, for example, the way we did in Bosnia 10 years ago, the way we should have done in Rwanda 14 years ago.

I want our government to utilize our resources intelligently. Ours is a rich country. We can help the needy in our country and abroad. But we need to this smartly and compassionately. And I think that if our government will behave responsibly, so will individual citizens.

Even here, on DU, people still ask "what can my country do to me."

Some of us supported a draft - a humanitarian civic draft - and were shot down in that "the government will own our children." We consider this a trait of the Republicans - to keep government at a distance.. until there is a need. But this sentiment is alive and well on DU.

What does it matter? Again, there are threads of people who will not vote for a certain candidate because s/he is a "moderate" or a "centrist." There are DUers who don't want to compromise. They'd rather stay home or vote Green. And we we lose then we "deserve" it, or whatever. There are many who are still proud of their Nader's vote in 2000. (Will they wait 40 years, like those who stay home in 1968 and now regret it? was in the recent "the 60s" on PBS)

So here is the score: there are still more than 40 million people with no access to heath insurance; there are 86 million who do not get paid sick leave - according to ABC news a couple of days ago. Most Americans will have to work to the day they die, will not be able to retire. There are many sick and hungry children and adults in our society. Doctors leave the profession because they are tired of fighting the CEOs of the insurance companies while seeing their compensation dwindle.

Does anyone here think that we can correct any of this with Republicans in the White House and in Congress?

So Clinton may be pandering to the center (why is this so bad?) and Lieberman supports the war in Iraq and many of the new members of Congress do not stand by a woman's right to choose and most of them - certainly all the front runners of the race to the White House - do not support gay marriage.

But we accepted them because we got control of the House, at least.

And if DUers here are so bound by their ideology that they'd not vote for the party nominee in November, they they have no right to preach to us here. They'd rather talk than actually do something to better the life of all of us. They'd rather talk (i.e. click and nod) than be active in making our country better. Perhaps not ideal - it never will be - but certainly a lot better than what we have had during the 80s and in this Century.

OK, start flaming.

[cyclezealot]

1. Philosophy is tenous.

What is more important to me are they their own thinker or are they on the take. But, usually that means liberal/progressive types are less on the corporate dole than their DLC counter part.

[pepperbear]

2. As a self labeled centrist

I look at centrism as a means to judge every issue by it's pros and cons, rather than having to check and see what my position should be.

I hold a few right-leaning positions, such as supporting the 2nd Amendment, and I am probably much more of a hardass on defense than a lot of leftists here. I am, however, very anti-incompetence, which allows me to distrust Bush on the Iraq war.

I am pretty leftist on issues like healthcare, censorship etc.

Doug

P.S.
Crap! I posted with our drummer's login info!

Sorry, I'll log in as myself...

[pepperbear]

17. dougee!

Yes dougee, I'm so far left that there isn't anything beyond the leftness left to be left.

and this is mike. doug, we both gotta start remembering to log out dude.

[indepat]

3. To those on the extreme right, a leftist, IMO, is anything left of extreme right and there is no

center: in other words, you are either extreme right or a bloody stinkin' bleeding-heart pinko commie rat-bastard.

[movonne]

5. I agree with you....

[Pushed To The Left]

11. The extreme right has pushed what used to be moderate to the left

Liberals and moderates are pretty much on the same team these days thanks to the radical right. I have gone from a moderate who was "pushed to the left" to a pretty hardcore liberal in the last few years!

[Warpy]

4. First, an extensive debate over many years realized the conclusion

that a graduated income tax was the fairest tax of all. That meant taxes would fall least upon labor and most upon capital, and be nearly confiscatory on extreme, obscene wealth. That system worked well and gave us the longest sustained boom in history. People were housed, fed, clothed, cared for when they got sick, and were able to raise and education decently.

Reagan thought as you did, and decided everybody should pay the same tax, whether they had enough to live on or not. At the last minute, Congress had an attack of reason and established a two tier system. Our taxes were supposed to be so easy we could send them in on a postcard. Congress then set about creating loopholes for their favorite contributors. You see what kind of system we have now. He then raised social security premiums six times so that the poorest would have a back door income tax as the overpayments went right into the general fund. We will never get a reasonable graduated income tax while conservatives are in power, and it doesn't matter which party those conservatives represent.

People who are old enough to remember the draft are against it. A huge army of draftees handed over to a madman like Stupid is unthinkable. No amount of sugarcoating it with "civic responsibility" and "honor to serve one's country" will change that fact. Drafted teenagers will go wherever they are needed, Stupid will decide that part, and you can bet your ass they'll go right into the military.

That's your history lesson.

I won't attempt to counter your diatribe against Americans in general and DUers in particular. I'll leave that to the mods.

[question everything]

6. Reagan is not the model for any tax system

Clearly all the loopholes to help special groups should be thrown out. And since Democrats controlled Congress during the Reagan years, who is to blame?

As for Social Security: this will never fly, but my idea is to eliminate this as a separate line.

If we need extra taxation of 7.25% then add this amount to all tax rates. This way it will be truly progressive. And we should have a pension allowance as part of the general funds. When people retire, they should be paid from that funds according to their means. This will eliminate first - the heavy load on the lowest income, where their SS taxes are higher than their income tax and, second, the complain by many that "this is my money."

This is not personal money. We all pay into the general funds, and we should trust our leaders to handle it with competency.

I was talking about a civic draft. Young people can set aside a year, or two, to delay their career planning to help where there is a need. Tutor students, assist in free clinic, or even with filling documents for assistance.

If you find the above a "diatribe" against Americans and DU - did you hit the alert button? You either did not read it closely or are having some other issues.

[MissWaverly]

7. I am an FDR democrat

which makes me a leftist in today's world, I believe we should have went to Katrina
and had an army of volunteers rebuild people's homes and rebuild the levees, I don't
believe in the almighty corporation, whose survival comes first in today's america at
the expense of the working man, world peace, and survival of all species living on the
planet. If this makes me a radical so be it, I don't like chicken hawks, warhawks
and loud mouths that are quick to throw somebody's elses sons & daughters away, I don't
believe in the Pentagon, CIA or the DOJ with no oversight. I don't believe that the
president is omnipotent and he is accountable to the Congress AND the American people.
I believe a crime is a crime and a lie is a lie whether the president does it or
the soldiers do it or the bagger at Walmart. I don't believe that there is such
a thing in this country as the privileged elite and that they are immune from obeying
our laws. I believe that the actions of the president should be reviewed and criticized
by our press and by our people, since debate makes our country stronger not weaker. I
believe that George Bush is the highest elected official in this country and not a king.
What I will fight for is a president who is not another chicken hawk/war hawk/bully
that will pardon everything that has gone on since 2000 and keep up with busting the budget by letting the rich ride for free, whether they be corporations or wealthy individuals.

[question everything]

12. I agree with everything you say but..

isn't this true for most Democrats now in Congress? Democrats who are now running for the White House?

Clinton is the most attacked candidate on these pages. One reason may have to do with her being the most recognized name, a front runner. She is not my first choice now but, of course, I will vote for her if she is the nominee.

Can you point to anything in her track record and her current platform that would contradict your stand?

[MissWaverly]

14. she has been a senator during the current crisis

I heard little criticism of Bush during that time, in fact, I heard that the reason the
Dems were so silent in the Senate was due to her influence and she has an aggressive
stance towards Iran and she has been a war hawk, I do not want another war hawk in office
after bush leaves office, we have had enough of gun boat diplomacy.

Look, many people around here think that I should rally round the
Hillary flag, NOW, Jimmy Carter, came out and invited Al Gore to run
for president, he probably knows both Bill and Hillary very well, he
did not endorse Hillary. Jimmy Carter, is a man I have great respect for
and I believe that he endorsed Al Gore not to be a crony but because he
thought Al Gore would be the best candidate for the country.

[leftofthedial]

8. all that is happening in the human sphere--

wars, economic dislocation, environmental exploitation and degredation, manipulation of social wedge issues . . .

all are artifacts of an underlying class struggle, in which a would-be plutocracy is attempting to wrest control of the planet away from the people.

"Centrist" Democrats, although with a gentler style than the repukes, are on the side of the plutocracy and are working to undermine civil liberties, middle-class decentralized control of the world's wealth and the regulation of "capitalists" (the plutocrats and their agents).

"Leftist" Democrats reject the ascendancy of the plutocrats.

[More Than A Feeling]

9. It boils down to this: who is to blame when a person rejects a candidate?

From your writing, my guess is that you would blame the person. I blame the candidate. I blame the opposition party for running such an evil candidate so as to make a bad choice the lesser of two evils. I blame a system where the only serious candidates have been corporate-vetted first.

That having been said, I will be voting for the Democratic nominee in November. Even if I have to shower again afterward. How much I do beyond that, well, who knows?

[Peace Patriot]

10. A centrist is someone who wants a 2% audit (automatic recount) of votes

tabulated by rightwing Bushite electronic voting corporations using "trade secret," proprietary programming code.

A leftist is someone who wants a 100% audit--all votes counted--and furthermore wants to...

THROW DIEBOLD, ES&S AND ALL ELECTION THEFT MACHINES INTO 'BOSTON HARBOR' *NOW*!

If this litmus test is applied to everyone in Congress, not one of them is a leftist. If it is applied to the American people, 92% of them are leftists.

[MedleyMisty]

13. I'm an extreme leftist

And I'm not ashamed of it.

Sorry, but from down here at the border between lower class and middle class, capitalism sucks.

Every life is equally priceless. Everyone deserves water, food, shelter, health care, and education. Everyone, no matter how much money their parents have or what color their skin pigments are or where they're born or which reproductive system they have.

Have any of you read the book on the authoritarian personality that's been posted about in GD?

Yeah, due to nature and nurture I'm pretty much on the extreme opposite end of the authoritarian scale and the social dominance scale. I'm the complete anti-authoritarian.

And proud of it.

And I vote a straight Democratic ticket at every election even though I think it's voting for the lesser evil, just to head off any of that type of thing.

[Zorra]

15. "Centrists" believe in government of, by, and for, giant corporate interests.

Leftists believe in government of, by, and for the people.

To me, that seems to be the defining ideological difference between the two.

[marions ghost]

16. After the Bushco hijacking

I don't think the terms "centrist" and "leftist" have much meaning anymore. They have become suddenly obsolete.

You either among the sane or the insane now.

You're either on the side of the decent and honest or you support the greedy and corrupt.

There's no way to have it both ways.