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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:06 AM
Original message
We need to stop repeating right wing non sense about our candidates
Right wing meme

Hillary Clinton refuses to apologize for her vote in favor of the IWR.

Truth

Hillary Clinton has repeatedly, since 2004, stated that knowing then, what we know now, there would have been no vote. She has been clear, unambigious in this. It is simply ludricrous to suggest that she hasn't repudiated that vote. You will note that no one who repeats this meme never quotes Hillary.

Meme

Hillary Clinton would be part of a dynasty (just like Bush)

Truth

Bill Clinton was born poor. He never knew his dad. From totally humble circumstances and with a ton of merit, he rose, with lots of people's help, to the highest office in this land. Bush, is the third generation of a family that has been wealthy, powerful, and in politics for decades. Bush is a dynasty. Clinton is the man who built a business out of nothing. Hillary is no part of a dynasty.

Meme

Hillary Clinton owes all her success to her famous husband and name.

Truth

When Hillary met Bill back in 1971, she had already been valedictorian at Wellesley College and the first student to deliver a Commencement address. She had already worked for the Children's Defense fund taking on cases of child abuse at a New Haven hospital. She was on the law review at Yale. In short, she was an acomplished woman in her own right. One could very easily wonder if Bill would have been President without her, instead of wondering if she would be Senator without him.

I don't have a horse in this race. But we will lose this race if we let the right wing determine what is and isn't true.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. I agree. Not a Hillary fan, but...
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 08:16 AM by caledesi
have noticed that the cons have infiltrated DU bec of the Hillary-bashing. DU doesn't need this kind on disruptment, nor do we need cons here to start a flame-war about Hillary. Not productive.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. Amen - When GOP phrasing about Hillary is on DU I wonder why we even try to elect a
candidate - too many are into destruction of other Dems and quite willing to use GOP slime to prove they are more left, more righteous, than other Dems.

It should be about issues - maybe in a few months it will start - at least on DU - to be about issues.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
3. Many here have said not to diss the Candidates but you have provided
some reasoning with your call.

Thanks very much.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nice try
Hillary's IWR vote is a big problem for a lot of us who don't take our cues from wingnuts. There's also a sincere belief among many egalitarian-minded people that tying up the presidency in the hands of two families over a 25-year period is a bad idea. These are sincerely held opinions. Deal with them on their merits, please.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Then do so honestly
Don't pretend that Edwards honestly regrets his vote while she doesn't. Don't pretend that there is no difference between Bush and Clinton.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Let's try again
Power and wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people is a MAJOR problem for many of us. Nepotism and family rule are not what our democracy is supposed to be about.

ANYONE who voted for IWR will NEVER get my vote for the nomination. There are a lot of us who feel that way. We supported any number of anti-IWR candidates last time around, and it keeps us from supporting Hillary and others this time around. This is not because we are creatures of the Right, as your original post offensively implies.

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. OK - IWR and perceived bias to rich and corporate - but who is your candidate and why? n/t
n/t
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Who is my candidate?
I know it's early, but...(Hint, hint: avatar.) As for the why, that's a thread hijacker. Suffice it to say I am not supporting Obama and opposing Hillary because all I do is repeat right-wing memes.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. You do know that Obama has made nice sounds toward Rubin/Altman (DLC) economic
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 09:45 AM by papau
concepts and social policy suggestions, so why is he less biased toward the rich and corporate?

I don't think Hillary or Obama, or any of the others, is biased to the rich and corporate - but I was wondering why you thought Hillary different - on what issue or issues do you have an Obama quote or position paper that moves you to him on this?

Indeed Edwards is the best to date on my other than Iraq number one issue - health care - IMO.

March 24 debate is to be about health care so I may be jumping the gun - but at this point I don't have enough on the issues to be as convinced as yourself as to a candidate - pro or con that candidate.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. All fine and good
But first tell me how you feel about the real title of this thread: If you oppose Hillary you are a right-wing tool.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. it is the dishonesty
not the opposition. I have no candidate in this race. If I had to vote today, it would likely be Richardson. But the simple fact is people are out and out lying about Clinton. It is a total lie to say she hasn't said the war vote was wrong. It is also a total lie to say that Hillary is part of some dynasty.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Those are your opinions
and you're entitled to them. To call those who sincerely disagree with you dishonest right-wing tools is wrong.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. No they're not
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 11:38 AM by dsc
She has repeatedly, as in over and over, said "There would have been no IRW vote had we known then what we know now" She said it on Meet the Press and she has said it repeatedly since. It is dishonest to say she hasn't retracted her war vote.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I'm beginning to think you're hopeless
Here's what you branded as a "right-wing meme" up top:

"Hillary Clinton refuses to apologize for her vote in favor of the IWR."

In fact, she does refuse to apologize. Here's one of a million news links on the topic:

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/02/18/news/123584.txt

You built this whole thread on a false statement and you go on to call those of us who embrace the truth about the supposed "right-wing meme" as wingnuts. Now will you at least have the HONESTY to admit that you are wrong?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Here is what she said
"I take responsibility for my vote. It was a sincere vote based on the facts and assurances we had at the time. Obviously I would not vote that way again if we knew then what we know now," she said, her oft-repeated explanation.

She then added in a clear reference to her rivals: "I have to say, if the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote or said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from. But for me, the most important thing now is trying to end this war."

To your source's credit, it actually quotes her. But in the first paragraph they tell a story they like. They say she won't repudiate her vote. Yet there she was doing just that. I don't know what other way her words can be taken as. She clearly repudiated her vote. So now we have her refusing to use the magic m word. That is the sole difference between her and Edwards. It is a total lie to pretend that that is a huge difference.

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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. DSC, arbiter of all things honest, your opening statement is false
and that's the truth.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. No it isn't
I say, both in my post, and again here, that the dishonesty is in not quoting her while doing so. It is also dishonest to pretend that she and Edwards have behaved differently here.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Hillary says IWR was a "wrong" vote but the error was Bush's - so why does she apologize? n/t
n/t
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Ah - it is opinion that her Oct 02 speech was reluctant yes? - or that she has opposed
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 12:36 PM by papau
the war in many way since 03s and has called for troop reduction/re-deploy for the last year?

Or that unlike the rich legacy background of GOPers the Clintons are from middle class (Hillary) and poor (Bill) backgrounds.

I believe what is being said is not that anyone is a "dishonest right-wing tools" or insincere - only that GOP lies are being sold as truth, and that that attempts to sell your own brand of candidate by knocking down another candidate helps the GOP.

Perhaps new "why I won't vote for Hillary" lines would make everyone feel better - like say "the Clintons are too respectful of Corporations and refuse to acknowledge that there are no "American" international corporations" and then go on to say how your candidate differs from this.

In any case the link to Hillary's anti Bush war in Iraq comments beginning with her reluctant "we must trust the President" IWR speech is : http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/iraq/

Hillary Clinton Plan to End War: Reject the President's Escalation; Protect U.S. Troops in Iraq; Begin Redeploying Our Troops; Enables President to End War Before Leaving Office is at:
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=269481

and the speech is : http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=233783

October 10, 2002

Floor Speech of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq

As Delivered

Today we are asked whether to give the President of the United States authority to use force in Iraq should diplomatic efforts fail to dismantle Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons and his nuclear program.

I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

In 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, losing the support of the United States. The first President Bush assembled a global coalition, including many Arab states, and threw Saddam out after forty-three days of bombing and a hundred hours of ground operations. The U.S.-led coalition then withdrew, leaving the Kurds and the Shiites, who had risen against Saddam Hussein at our urging, to Saddam's revenge.

As a condition for ending the conflict, the United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.

In 1998, Saddam Hussein pressured the United Nations to lift the sanctions by threatening to stop all cooperation with the inspectors. In an attempt to resolve the situation, the UN, unwisely in my view, agreed to put limits on inspections of designated "sovereign sites" including the so-called presidential palaces, which in reality were huge compounds well suited to hold weapons labs, stocks, and records which Saddam Hussein was required by UN resolution to turn over. When Saddam blocked the inspection process, the inspectors left. As a result, President Clinton, with the British and others, ordered an intensive four-day air assault, Operation Desert Fox, on known and suspected weapons of mass destruction sites and other military targets.

In 1998, the United States also changed its underlying policy toward Iraq from containment to regime change and began to examine options to effect such a change, including support for Iraqi opposition leaders within the country and abroad.

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.

Now this much is undisputed. The open questions are: what should we do about it? How, when, and with whom?

Some people favor attacking Saddam Hussein now, with any allies we can muster, in the belief that one more round of weapons inspections would not produce the required disarmament, and that deposing Saddam would be a positive good for the Iraqi people and would create the possibility of a secular democratic state in the Middle East, one which could perhaps move the entire region toward democratic reform.

This view has appeal to some, because it would assure disarmament; because it would right old wrongs after our abandonment of the Shiites and Kurds in 1991, and our support for Saddam Hussein in the 1980's when he was using chemical weapons and terrorizing his people; and because it would give the Iraqi people a chance to build a future in freedom.

However, this course is fraught with danger. We and our NATO allies did not depose Mr. Milosevic, who was responsible for more than a quarter of a million people being killed in the 1990s. Instead, by stopping his aggression in Bosnia and Kosovo, and keeping on the tough sanctions, we created the conditions in which his own people threw him out and led to his being in the dock being tried for war crimes as we speak.

If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.

Others argue that we should work through the United Nations and should only resort to force if and when the United Nations Security Council approves it. This too has great appeal for different reasons. The UN deserves our support. Whenever possible we should work through it and strengthen it, for it enables the world to share the risks and burdens of global security and when it acts, it confers a legitimacy that increases the likelihood of long-term success. The UN can help lead the world into a new era of global cooperation and the United States should support that goal.

But there are problems with this approach as well. The United Nations is an organization that is still growing and maturing. It often lacks the cohesion to enforce its own mandates. And when Security Council members use the veto, on occasion, for reasons of narrow-minded interests, it cannot act. In Kosovo, the Russians did not approve NATO military action because of political, ethnic, and religious ties to the Serbs. The United States therefore could not obtain a Security Council resolution in favor of the action necessary to stop the dislocation and ethnic cleansing of more than a million Kosovar Albanians. However, most of the world was with us because there was a genuine emergency with thousands dead and a million driven from their homes. As soon as the American-led conflict was over, Russia joined the peacekeeping effort that is still underway.

In the case of Iraq, recent comments indicate that one or two Security Council members might never approve force against Saddam Hussein until he has actually used chemical, biological, or God forbid, nuclear weapons.

So, Mr. President, the question is how do we do our best to both defuse the real threat that Saddam Hussein poses to his people, to the region, including Israel, to the United States, to the world, and at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations?

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.

If we try and fail to get a resolution that simply, but forcefully, calls for Saddam's compliance with unlimited inspections, those who oppose even that will be in an indefensible position. And, we will still have more support and legitimacy than if we insist now on a resolution that includes authorizing military action and other requirements giving some nations superficially legitimate reasons to oppose any Security Council action. They will say we never wanted a resolution at all and that we only support the United Nations when it does exactly what we want.

I believe international support and legitimacy are crucial. After shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable. While the military outcome is not in doubt, should we put troops on the ground, there is still the matter of Saddam Hussein's biological and chemical weapons. Today he has maximum incentive not to use them or give them away. If he did either, the world would demand his immediate removal. Once the battle is joined, however, with the outcome certain, he will have maximum incentive to use weapons of mass destruction and to give what he can't use to terrorists who can torment us with them long after he is gone. We cannot be paralyzed by this possibility, but we would be foolish to ignore it. And according to recent reports, the CIA agrees with this analysis. A world united in sharing the risk at least would make this occurrence less likely and more bearable and would be far more likely to share with us the considerable burden of rebuilding a secure and peaceful post-Saddam Iraq.

President Bush's speech in Cincinnati and the changes in policy that have come forth since the Administration began broaching this issue some weeks ago have made my vote easier. Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

And perhaps my decision is influenced by my eight years of experience on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue in the White House watching my husband deal with serious challenges to our nation. I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war. Secondly, I want to insure that Saddam Hussein makes no mistake about our national unity and for our support for the President's efforts to wage America's war against terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. And thirdly, I want the men and women in our Armed Forces to know that if they should be called upon to act against Iraq, our country will stand resolutely behind them.

My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections.

And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. To oppose Hillary is to have an opinion & is fine-to use GOP slogans in doing that is not OK-IMO n/t
n/t
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. "If he [Bush] doesn't end the war, I will" - HRC
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 09:59 AM by MethuenProgressive
It wasn't a "YIPPEE!! LET'S GO WAGE WAR" vote, and you know it. If you don't, you should go look up the wording.
She's said over and over she wouldn't have voted that way if she knew then what she knows now.
Your "egalitarian" arguement holds no water. She's a Rodham, not a Clinton, and which Adama or Roosevelt do you think shouldn't have been President?
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. Your line will work better when she divorces her husband and calls herself Rodham
In the meantime, many of us will continue to oppose someone who authorized Bush to go to war under pretenses that millions around the world knew to be false.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. so if she divorces Bill, then she becomes anti war
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. She also served on the Watergate Commission--everyone forgets that, but she was one of the staff
lawyers.

I find those kinds of posts rather transparent, myself. They belong in the same category as the "Should we be concerned because Obama's middle name is Hussein? Everyone is saying(Yeah, right--everyone at the Rightwingnut Social Club, maybe) that 'fill in name of frontrunner or strong contender' can't be elected because of 'fill in spurious, bullshit, made up reason.'

When there are honest disagreements between posters, well, that's just the way life is. However, when you see that sort of 'lives under a rickety bridge at the edge of town' type behavior, and it's repeated in tireless fashion, that's what that alert button is for, IMHO.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I left that out because it came after she met Bill
though I would think he had nothing to do with it.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. I'd agree with that assessment. No one knew who they were back then
They could walk down any street in the nation and no one would look once, never mind twice.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. By Dec. 2003 she was critical of the war and the vote. Yes, let's not let the RNC manipulate us.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. DSC, while I agree with the meat, I don't agree witth the potatoes. These are LEFTWING memes
...except, possibly, the last one.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. So the left and the right agree - bipartisanship on DU - interesting n/t
n/t
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. in the case of Clinton, apparently so.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. Geffen was right. except for the fact that he knows them better than anyone,
he could be ignored. The fact that he does know her and said what he said speaks volumes. If a former fund-raiser for the Clintons feels that strongly, it also explains why so many Dems and 3x as many GOPers dislike and mistrust her. It is not a right wing talking point to admit that one does not trust or like her, or that she would be a horrific candidate.

Geffen is right and he has every single right to speak his mind. I am glad he did. Hillary's true colors came out in response, and that has confirmed what many of us on the left thought about her earlier. the basics work. ABC = anyone but clinton.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
54. Geffen Is A Record Producer, Sir
Lying when the truth will do is a requirement for success in that business. For him to disparage someone as a liar is rich fare indeed....
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. w/ his experience, who better to believe?
et tu brutus?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. What Strains Credulty, Sir
Is the fellow posturing as one afflicted with moral outrage. Professional jealousy, or even collegial respect, would ring a truer note....
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
18. Mediamatters.org did a great debunking story
I'd include a link but I am not getting a response from their site right now.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
45. I'm not sure some DUers want to read Hillary truth - but here is the media matters facts on Hillary
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 01:12 PM by papau
http://mediamatters.org/items/200702130005

Myths and falsehoods about Hillary Rodham Clinton

On January 20, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) announced the formation of her presidential exploratory committee. Yet despite the claim by conservative news outlets such as Fox News that the Washington press corps is "pulling for her," media reports and commentary are already rife with myths and falsehoods regarding her record, her motivations, and Americans' perceptions of her, as Media Matters for America documents below. Whether new or old, these erroneous claims reinforce the baseless and often demonstrably false characterizations of Clinton commonly perpetuated by the media -- that she is "calculating," "dishonest," "vicious," "ruthless," "unelectable," "unlikable," and even "unqualified."

"CALCULATING"

Media frequently portray Clinton as "calculating" or overly ambitious, motivated by political considerations rather than conviction. These assertions are rarely accompanied by actual examples or support. For instance, on the January 29 edition of MSNBC's Hardball, Wall Street Journal national political editor John Harwood described Clinton as "very politically cautious and calculating." Similarly, Hardball host Chris Matthews has called her a "calculated politician." Conservative media figures have also joined in. On the January 31 edition of his nationally syndicated radio show, Rush Limbaugh said of Clinton's political tactics: "She'll lie. She'll change her mind. She'll say whatever she has to say." And in a February 1 column, National Review Online editor-at-large Jonah Goldberg claimed that "everyone understands that Clinton takes positions on issues based on political calculation."

In recent years, the media have also regularly described Clinton as repositioning herself to attract one set of voters or another. For instance, CNN has previously reported that there exist "two Senator Clintons" -- one that appeals to progressive Democrats and one that appeals to moderates.

This pervasive view of Clinton manifests itself in knee-jerk reactions to her actions, sometimes to the point of absurdity -- as in the case of Slate.com editor Jacob Weisberg, who analyzed the songs reportedly on her iPod and found that the playlist "suggests premeditation, if not actual poll-testing."

On the February 11 edition of NBC's Meet the Press, Washington Post media critic Howard Kurtz noted "the image that the many journalists have of Senator Clinton as being a kind of a cold and calculating and triangulating politician." In a February 5 post on his ABCNews.com weblog, ABC national correspondent Jake Tapper ridiculed this depiction of Clinton:

(Sen. Joseph R.) Biden (D-DE) shoots down the notion that he thinks Clinton is too calculating -- a meme that is emerging in this race, the notion that Clinton is a cool, calculating pol driven by a hunger for power. (As opposed to the other 300 politicians running for President, of course)

Following are examples of media claiming that Clinton has shifted her views on certain issues solely for political gain.

Clinton has moved to the center

One widespread characterization of Clinton is that of a presidential hopeful moderating her political and personal views in order to appeal to a broader swath of voters. On the January 22 edition of CNN Headline News' Glenn Beck, John Mercurio, senior editor of National Journal's "The Hotline," said: "(O)ver the past six years in the Senate, I think you've definitely seen her in a very calculated way move to the center." By contrast, in her column in the February 5 issue of Newsweek, Anna Quindlen identified this as one of the many myths that have surfaced regarding Clinton. "Today many of the contenders are enshrouded in the mists of myth," Quindlen wrote. "One is that Hillary Rodham Clinton is a flaming liberal ... It's laughable to talk about the senator moving toward the middle. She's been there for years."

Critics often cite Clinton's views on reproductive choice as an example of her repositioning. For instance, Chris Matthews has described Clinton as purportedly shifting her stance on abortion in a "transparent" effort to recover the so-called "values vote." He has also accused her of "trying to play it safe" on the issue by taking a "poll-tested path." Matthews has pointed to her assertion in a July 25, 2006, speech that abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare" as an example of her changing position on the issue. But far from representing a point of departure from earlier statements, Clinton's remarks in July were consistent with those she made in a January 22, 1999, speech. While first lady, she said: "But all too often, generally because of the loudest voices, the American people don't hear explained the efforts that we're engaged in to continue to work with people from all different walks of life to make abortion safe, legal, and rare."

Other media figures, such as Fox News congressional correspondent Major Garrett, have claimed that in a January 24, 2005, speech, Clinton "appeared to soften her historically hard-line defense of current abortion law by praising the role that religious faith has played in promoting teen abstinence." But while Clinton did praise religion and teen abstinence in the speech, she at no point backed away from her defense of abortion rights and even reiterated her support for keeping abortion legal. Referring to the Putting Prevention First Act (H.R. 4192), Clinton said: "It provides a roadmap to the destination of fewer unwanted pregnancies -- to the day when abortion is truly safe, legal, and rare."

Clinton has moved to the left

In contrast to those claiming that Clinton has moved to the center are media figures who suggest that she only recently became critical of the Iraq war to purportedly appeal to "anti-war Democrats." For instance, in a January 18 article, Washington Post chief political reporter Dan Balz wrote that Clinton is "continuing her steady evolution from one of the war's staunchest supporters to one of the administration's most prominent critics" -- an assertion later echoed by CNN. And a February 8 Wall Street Journal editorial asserted that "as Mrs. Clinton bids to win the Democratic Presidential nomination, she is taking a marked turn to the left. Pressured by other candidates and by her party's left wing, she is walking back her hawkish statements and is now all but part of the antiwar camp."

But the claim that Clinton was once one of the "staunchest" backers" of the Iraq war does not withstand scrutiny -- nor does the claim that her criticism of the war is recent. While Clinton did vote in favor of the 2002 resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq, less than seven months after the war began, she expressed doubt about President Bush's leadership in the war, saying in an October 17, 2003, floor statement, that her "yes" vote for an $87 billion supplemental appropriation "was a vote for our troops, it was a vote for our mission. ... (I)t was not a vote for our national leadership." During the same statement, Clinton accused the Bush administration of having "gilded the lily" on pre-war Iraq intelligence at "the cost of perhaps not being able to take actions in the future that are necessary to our well-being and our interests because we may look like the nation or at the least the administration that cried wolf."

In a December 7, 2003, appearance on ABC's This Week, Clinton said of the Bush administration's handling of the war: "(T)here were a lot of miscalculation and, frankly, inept planning that we're now living with the consequences." She went on to say, "I regret the way the president has used the authority" given to him by Congress.

Further, on the August 29, 2004, edition of CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, Clinton criticized the administration for taking the country to war on faulty premises. Referring to the Iraq war resolution -- which she voted for on October 10, 2002 -- Clinton said, "(I)f we had known then what we know now, there wouldn't have been a vote."

Clinton has refused to "come out against" the Iraq war

Some media figures have depicted Clinton as hesitant to oppose the war. For instance, on the February 8 edition of MSNBC's Hardball, host Chris Matthews said of Clinton, "I'm sick of what`s going on in Iraq. I wish she would come out against it." But as Bob Somerby noted on his blog, The Daily Howler, Clinton had clearly stated a week earlier that she would end the war if elected president. Indeed, in a February 2 speech, she said, "If we in Congress don't end this war before January 2009, as president, I will."

Further, Clinton co-sponsored and was one of 38 Democrats who voted in favor of a resolution by Democratic Sens. Carl Levin (MI) and Jack Reed (RI), introduced on June 19, 2006, calling on the Bush administration to begin withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of 2006.

"DISHONEST"

Along with the media's frequent characterization of Clinton as calculating is their propensity to question her honesty. In a particularly absurd example, then-New York Times reporter Anne E. Kornblut suggested on January 16 that Clinton had faked a cell phone call in order to avoid speaking to reporters.

Following are other examples of media figures baselessly attempting to depict Clinton as having lied or deceived the public.

Clinton lied about why she voted for 2002 Iraq war resolution

In a January 31 column, New York Daily News columnist Michael Goodwin claimed that Clinton has "lied about her reasons for" supporting the 2002 resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq. Goodwin highlighted Clinton's recent statements that Bush "said at the time he was going to the United Nations to put inspectors back into Iraq, to figure out whether they still had any WMD," and that he "took the authority that others and I gave him and he misused it." Asserting that this account is "not even within spitting distance of being true," Goodwin went on to claim that Clinton did not express any concern about the Bush administration's drive to war during the five months between the October 2002 vote and the March 2003 invasion. He noted that several members of Congress had "urged Bush to let weapons inspectors finish their work," adding that "Clinton was not recorded as being part of that effort."

In fact, during those five months, Clinton repeatedly expressed her support for further U.N. inspections. For instance, in a January 31, 2003, letter to then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, she wrote:

If our words about supporting UN inspectors have any meaning and if we truly want the United Nations to be effective, we must act to support the UN arms inspectors and act to unite the UN Security Council behind the use of U2 aircraft in Iraq ... Additionally if we are truly serious about supporting the UN inspections we should increase our intelligence support to the inspectors.

Further, a March 3, 2003, Associated Press article quoted Clinton stating that she would prefer further inspections over military action. "It is preferable that we do this in a peaceful manner through coercive inspection," Clinton said. The AP went on to report that she "said the Bush administration still had work to do at convincing the American public and the rest of the world that Hussein presented a real threat that might require military action."

Clinton moved up '08 announcement because of Obama

Following Clinton's January 20 presidential exploratory announcement, numerous media figures suggested that she had accelerated the announcement in reaction to that of Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) four days earlier. But such claims ignored news accounts preceding Obama's entry into the race reporting that Clinton was expected to launch her presidential exploratory committee in January. Some media figures went so far as to portray Clinton as willfully covering up this purported change of plans. Chuck Todd, editor of National Journal's The Hotline, asserted that the allegation that Clinton changed her plans "certainly seems" to be true but her aides would "never admit" it.

Clinton taped her '08 announcement months ago

Some conservatives in the media -- including CNN Headline News host Glenn Beck, Fox News hosts Sean Hannity and Steve Doocy, and Limbaugh -- pointed to the green foliage in the background of Clinton's announcement video in order to suggest that she had shot it months earlier. This attempt to cast Clinton as dishonest about the timing of her decision to run for president disintegrated, however, as The Washington Post and others confirmed that Clinton had shot the video on January 18 at her Washington, D.C., home. Regarding the foliage specifically, the Post reported: "Sources familiar with the landscaping have identified those plants as small azaleas and nandina shrubs, still vibrant because of last month's unusually mild temperatures."

Clinton won't admit that her "evil men" comment was directed at her husband

Most recently, media figures have taken to speculating about whom Clinton was referring to when, in response to a January 28 question about her ability to deal with dictators, she jokingly answered, "And what in my background equips me to deal with evil and bad men?" The hypotheses regarding the "men" Clinton had in mind have ranged from former President Bill Clinton to Osama bin Laden to former independent counsel Kenneth Starr, and so on, as Media Matters has noted. But media figures have also accused her in this context of dishonesty. Indeed, on January 30, when asked by Pat Buchanan why the media had latched on to Clinton's joke, Chris Matthews answered: "Because she won't honestly admit what she does. ... (S)he won't admit that was a joke about Bill."

Clinton planted Spencer plastic surgery story

During Clinton's 2006 re-election campaign, MSNBC host Tucker Carlson suggested that the senator had planted a story about a purported smear of her in order to garner sympathy among New York voters. On October 23, the New York Daily News reported that former Yonkers Mayor John Spencer, Clinton's Republican opponent, had said Clinton "used to be ugly -- and speculates she got 'millions of dollars' in plastic surgery" -- a comment Spencer later denied having made. Following the publication of the Daily News story, Carlson claimed that it "almost seems like a plant" by the Clinton campaign, because "that's how she wins in every case, when people think she's wronged."

"VICIOUS" and "RUTHLESS"

The repeated characterization of Clinton as calculating is also accompanied by the media's tendency to portray her as vicious and ruthless. For instance, Matthews has described her as a "sort of Madame Defarge of the left." Media figures such as MSNBC host Don Imus and conservative radio host Jay Severin have bashed her as a "buck-toothed witch," "Satan," and "the devil." Rush Limbaugh has repeatedly suggested that Clinton had then-deputy White House counsel Vincent Foster murdered while she was first lady.

In concert with this characterization, many in the media have predicted that she will ruthlessly attack her fellow Democratic candidates in the 2008 presidential race. Most recently, Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank called Clinton's seat at Bush's January 23 State of the Union address the "perfect spot" because she sat directly behind Obama and "could have inserted the knife right there without even being detected."

Following are examples of media figures baselessly accusing Clinton of having either smeared her political opponents or viciously attacked a person or group of people for her own political advancement.

Clinton was behind madrassa smear against Obama

The concept of Clinton's no-holds-barred campaign strategy reached an apex following Obama's January 16 presidential exploratory announcement when a smear regarding his religious background circulated throughout the media. From Media Matters' recent examination of the manufactured scandal, which originated with a conservative website and was later debunked by CNN and others:

On January 17, InsightMag.com published an article claiming that "researchers connected to" Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) disclosed that Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) "spent at least four years in a so-called Madrassa, or Muslim seminary, in Indonesia." The story claimed that "sources close to (a) background check," which was supposedly "conducted by researchers connected to Senator Clinton," said that "(t)he idea is to show Obama as deceptive." These "sources" also speculated that the "the specific Madrassa Mr. Obama attended" might have taught "a Wahhabi doctrine that denies the rights of non-Muslims." The InsightMag.com story also noted that in each of his two books, Obama "mentions but does not expand on his Muslim background." The article cited only anonymous sources. By January 19, the story had been picked up by conservative media figures and given prominent play on major television networks, such as CNN Headline News and Fox News.

Conservative efforts to raise questions about Obama's Muslim heritage had, in fact, begun days earlier. Indeed, on January 9 -- a week before the InsightMag.com article -- Chicago Tribune metro columnist Eric Zorn wrote on the Tribune's Change of Subject weblog, "The crazies are sending around an e-mail that attempts to establish that Barack Obama is actually a Muslim who masquerades as a Christian for political advantage." But following the publication of the InsightMag.com article, numerous right-wing media figures repeated the entirely unsubstantiated accusation that Clinton's campaign staff was responsible for spreading the madrassa allegation against Obama. Several Fox News hosts repeated the claim that Clinton had "outed Obama's madrassa past." Rush Limbaugh declared, "This is Hillary's team doing this." And conservative radio host Melanie Morgan asserted that Clinton "is going to try to derail the (Obama) train before it gets out of the station." As recently as January 30, Fox News political analyst Dick Morris persisted in leveling this baseless accusation.

Clinton leaked Obama drug story

The recent attempts to tie Clinton to the madrassa story recall an earlier suggestion by Hannity and conservative columnist Robert D. Novak that Clinton was behind a supposed "leak()" to the press about Obama's admitted past drug use. But Obama himself disclosed that he had used drugs in his 1995 memoir, Dreams of My Father, as Media Matters noted.

Clinton is anti-Semitic

Numerous conservative media figures have in recent years advanced discredited accusations suggesting that Clinton is anti-Semitic. For instance, right-wing radio host Debbie Schlussel claimed that Clinton, during a trip to the West Bank in 1999, did not make "a peep" when Suha Arafat, wife of former Palestinian National Authority president Yasir Arafat, stated that Israelis "poison Palestinian water and air and cause cancer for them." In fact, an October 6, 2000, New York Times article reported that Clinton disavowed Arafat's remarks after receiving an official translation "hours later."

More recently, conservative radio host Dennis Prager revived the allegation that Clinton made "private remarks that were anti-Semitic" more than three decades ago. But these allegations were originally advanced by former President Bill Clinton's 1974 congressional campaign manager, who has reportedly "admitted to leveling charges 'without factual foundation' against the Clintons in the past." Moreover, Sen. Clinton biographer Gail Sheehy, author of Hillary's Choice (Random House, 1999), told the Associated Press that she did not include the accusation because the source was "only moderately reliable" and "kind of flaky," and because "even he didn't back it up."

"UNELECTABLE"

Perhaps the most frequent line of attack against Clinton's political prospects is the assertion that she is unelectable. Media figures have offered various rationales to support this claim -- that Democratic voters would never nominate her, that she could not win a general election, that female voters will not support her, that her association with former President Bill Clinton would prove too big a liability. But recent polling rebuts each of these arguments.

Clinton can't win the Democratic primary

A recent Newsweek article declared that Clinton's polling numbers "will need to change for Democratic primary voters -- now comfortable with assessing electability -- to move her way." But contrary to claims that Democratic voters are yet to "move her way," recent polls show her leading her potential primary opponents:

* A January 16-19 Washington Post/ABC News poll asked Democratic or Democratic-leaning respondents: "If the 2008 Democratic presidential primary or caucus in your state were being held today, and the candidates were: (Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Barack Obama, John Kerry, Al Gore, Wesley Clark, Tom Vilsack, Bill Richardson, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Dennis Kucinich, or Mike Gravel), for whom would you vote?" Forty-one percent of respondents said they would vote for Clinton. Obama received the second-greatest amount of support, with 17 percent, followed by former Sen. John Edwards (NC) with 11 percent.

* A Time magazine poll released on January 25 found that Clinton led Obama among registered Democratic voters by a margin of 40 percent to 21 percent. Edwards came in third with 11 percent of Democratic respondents saying they would vote for him.

* A January 25-28 Gallup poll surveyed 504 Democratic and Democratic-leaning voters and found that 29 percent backed Clinton for the nomination, while 18 percent supported Obama, and 13 percent chose Edwards.

Clinton can't win the general election

On the December 29, 2006, edition of Hardball, Matthews claimed that Clinton would not "do so well" in "the center of the country, Ohio, Michigan, those kinds of states where people own guns and boats and have a certain attitude towards modern women." But recent polls conducted in both Ohio and Michigan found that Clinton leads in head-to-head matchups with the current Republican front-runners:

* A Quinnipiac University poll released January 30 found that, among Ohio voters, Clinton leads Arizona Sen. John McCain (46 percent to 42 percent), former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (46 percent to 43 percent), and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney (52 percent to 31 percent).

* A Detroit Free Press poll released February 3 found that, among Michigan voters, Clinton leads McCain (46 percent to 43 percent) and Giuliani (46 percent to 42 percent).

Further undermining claims that Clinton could not win the general election are several recent polls showing her beating potential Republican opponents at the national level:

* The January 16-19 Post/ABC poll also found Clinton outpolling McCain (50 percent to 45 percent) and Giuliani (49 percent to 47 percent).

* A Newsweek poll conducted January 24-25, showed Clinton outpolling McCain (50 percent to 44 percent), Giuliani (49 percent to 46 percent), and Romney (56 percent to 37 percent).

Clinton can't win because of ambivalent female voters

In a January 28 Post opinion article, retired women's studies professor Linda Hirshman suggested that because "white, married women" are generally less engaged in politics than men -- and, thus, often consult their husbands when deciding on their vote -- they may not strongly support Clinton's candidacy. But recent polls appear to undermine Hirshman's theory, showing that Clinton currently derives much of her support from female voters:

* The Post/ABC poll found that "Clinton receives significantly higher support among women than men." Indeed, 49 percent of the Democratic or Democratic-leaning women surveyed said they would vote for Clinton over 12 other potential candidates from her party, while 29 percent of men supported her.

* An American Research Group (ARG) poll released February 3 found that, among females likely to vote Democratic in the 2008 Iowa caucus, 56 percent would support Clinton. As ARG president Richard Bennet said on the February 5 edition of MSNBC's Tucker, "(S)he owns the women's vote at the moment."

Clinton can't win because of her husband

Some in the media have suggested that Sen. Clinton's association with her husband, Bill Clinton, may represent a liability as she vies for the White House. For instance a December 17, 2006, Washington Post article reported that the former president "could be a massive and messy distraction" on the campaign trail. But as Media Matters noted, the Post offered no concrete evidence that he is anything but an asset to his wife. Moreover, a May 2006 Post/ABC poll found that a strong majority -- 60 percent -- of Americans think Bill Clinton has "about the right amount" of political influence on Hillary Clinton, while just 9 percent thought he has too much influence. The same poll found that 47 percent of respondents stated that the way Sen. Clinton handled the Monica Lewinsky controversy had "not much impact" on their level of respect for her, and 34 percent respected her more for her handling of the situation.

"UNLIKABLE"

Conservative media figures are not shy in expressing their negative feelings toward Clinton. Time blogger Andrew Sullivan recently referred to her "cootie vibes" and declared, "I just can't stand her." MSNBC host Joe Scarborough described her as "very shrill." Glenn Beck previously labeled her the "Antichrist." But the expression of such views is not limited to conservatives. The Hotline's blog, On Call, posted excerpts from speeches by several Democratic hopefuls at the Democratic National Committee winter meeting. But, while Clinton was by no means the only speaker to raise her voice, she was the only one described by On Call as striking a "discordant note."

Many in the media believe that most Americans -- including many Democrats -- also harbor unfavorable opinions of her. For instance, Weekly Standard executive editor Fred Barnes claimed on the December 9 edition of Fox News' The Beltway Boys that, in the eyes of the "Democratic hordes," Clinton is "not very likable." And San Francisco Chronicle columnist Debra Saunders said on the January 28 edition of CNN's Reliable Sources, "A lot of people don't think that she's very likable."

But recent polling data do not support these assumptions:

* The January 25 Time poll found that 58 percent of respondents viewed Clinton positively. The poll also found that more respondents would choose to have dinner with her than with any of the other 2008 presidential candidates. Indeed, 26 percent chose Clinton as a dinner companion, while 15 percent named Obama and 15 percent picked McCain.

* The recent Post/ABC poll similarly found that 54 percent of respondents had a favorable view of Clinton. (Nonetheless, media figures such as New York Times reporter Patrick Healy and National Public Radio's (NPR) Juan Williams misrepresented the poll results to claim that she received a favorability rating of 41 percent. Healy even reported that this figure had concerned "(s)everal New York and Hollywood donors.")

"UNQUALIFIED"

In discussing Clinton's presidential prospects, some media figures have baselessly called into question her qualifications for the job. Most common is the suggestion that Clinton could not have become a U.S. senator and a contender for the White House if it were not for her marriage to former President Bill Clinton. During a January 22 interview with Sen. Clinton, ABC News anchor Charles Gibson asked, "You are a strong, credible female candidate for president of the United States, and I mean no disrespect in this, but would you be in this position were it not for your husband?" Similarly, on the January 31 broadcast of his radio show, Limbaugh asserted, "She is not a brilliant woman. She's not the smartest woman in the world. She is a hack!" He went on to ask, "(I)f her name was Hillary Smith, would anybody be talking about her as a presidential candidate?"

Others, such as blogger Andrew Sullivan, have questioned whether Clinton possesses the political skills to win a presidential election. On the February 2 edition of NPR's The Diane Rehm Show, Sullivan asserted that when Clinton "gets up in front of an audience, by and large, she bombs. She is a terrible orator. She does not have her husband's capacity to wow a crowd. Up against Obama, it's almost excruciating how uncomfortable she is in public." Sullivan added: "I don't think she's a good public politician."

Recent polling, however, shows that Democrats have significant confidence in Clinton's abilities as both a candidate and a potential president:

* The January 31 Gallup poll found that 61 percent of Democratic and Democratic-leaning respondents picked Clinton over Obama and Edwards as the "most qualified to be president."

* Gallup also asked respondents to pick which of these three candidates would best handle the major issues facing the country. On nine of these 10 issues -- including health care, education, the economy, terrorism, and Iraq -- a plurality named Clinton as the most capable.

* A Fox News poll conducted January 30-31 found that when asked to choose which of seven potential Democratic and Republican candidates would be "toughest when it comes to terrorism," more respondents picked Clinton than any other.

Regarding her political abilities, the January 31 Gallup poll found that 57 percent of respondents thought Clinton would perform better than Edwards and Obama in debates. And 41 percent picked her as the best public speaker -- slightly less than Obama, whom 44 percent favored as an orator.

Claims that Clinton is not a capable candidate are also belied by the results of her two Senate victories in New York. In 2000, Clinton garnered 55 percent of the vote over her Republican opponent's 43 percent. And in 2006, Clinton made significant gains among New York voters, winning re-election with 67 percent of the vote and holding her GOP opponent to just 31 percent. Furthermore, Clinton's support was spread across the state, where she won in all but four counties, including many in the more conservative upstate region. As The New York Times reported on November 8, 2006, during her first term in the Senate, Clinton appeared to overcome New Yorkers' doubts about her abilities and intentions:

Six years ago, many voters, particularly upstate, were leery of her, and skeptical of what this woman from Arkansas, this former first lady with the outsized persona whose relationship with her husband had been the subject of endless scrutiny, wanted from New York.

After a full Senate term, even her opponents did not make an issue of her not being a native New Yorker. Her sizable victory reflected just how deftly Clinton had managed to balance her high profile with the day-to-day work of the Senate, winning the respect of even Republican colleagues who less than a decade ago were trying to impeach her husband, Bill Clinton.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. that is total bullshit
Here is wikipedia on Ms Malkin.

Malkin was born in Philadelphia to Filipino parents, Dr. Apolo and Rafaela Maglalang, in the United States on a work visa. Her maternal grandfather fought under General Douglas MacArthur.<1> She grew up in Absecon, New Jersey, and graduated from Oberlin College. In 1993, she married Rhodes Scholar and RAND Corporation economist Jesse Malkin, with whom she has two children.


Career
She began her career at the Los Angeles Daily News, working as a columnist from 1992 to 1994. Years later on her blog, Malkin recalled these days in her reaction to Jessica Cutler when Cutler claimed to be unable to live on a $25,000 salary in Washington:

Note what isn't here. She didn't graduate first in her class at the most prestigious women's college in the country. She didn't give her college's commencement address. She didn't edit her law review. She didn't work for the Children's Defense fund, she didn't sue a hospital for abusing children. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, she merely went to a pretty good college.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. I can't agree with that at all. Malkin?
If Hillary's last name were Obama, and she was on her second term as a high viz NY senator, I'll bet she'd be neck and neck with the guy named, I suppose, Clinton who is the new senator from Illinois.

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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
22. Thank you.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
24. You mean stuff like "gore says he invented the internet?"

...so many people I know, lefties, still think that actually happened. Sigh.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. exactly
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Dems buying RW lies is sad - w/o Gore and the 87 funding bill there's no internet - and Dems still
instead buy the GOP re-write of that fact into Gore saying he invented the internet.

No one else wanted to fund the internet - it took 2 years to get the damn bill passed.

But Dems refuse to remember other than GOP sound bites.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. Bill Clinton may have been born poor, but Hillary was born into wealth
Hillary Rodham comes from a well-to-do family that has never known the poverty that Bill Clinton experienced as a young man. Hillary was even a Goldwater Republican.

Sometimes the truth is bipartisan, and when it comes to the Iraq War, and the upcoming war in Iran, you will find the antiwar Left and the anti-neocon Right raising the same points simply because it may be true.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Not quite true as to Hillary - I know the house/schools/area - its not rich and Dad wasn't rich
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 01:04 PM by papau
Her father, Hugh Ellsworth Rodham, was a son of English immigrants. He attended Pennsylvania State University on a football scholarship, graduating with a Bachelor of Science degree from the College of Education in 1935. By Oct. 26, 1947, when Hillary was born, Hugh was a sales manager for the Barrett Textile Corp. He was a GOPer who wanted a cut in the capital gains tax. He died as an executive in a small textile company.

Her mother, Dorothy Emma Howell Rodham, was a homemaker.

(as an aside - I only know her home because I grew up in the area (before her), our high schools competed, and I had a job in the area as a teamster - non-semi trucks - after high school to get money for college)
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
53. Hillary wasn't "born into wealth"
nor was she poor. I think she was pretty solidly middle class (though I guess it depends on your definition). She attended public schools and I believe she went to college on a scholarship. And being a Goldwater Republican doesn't mean that you're wealthy. My mother grew up in a household that would be termed Goldwater Republican, and they were middle class/upper-middle class, but certainly not wealthy.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
41. Sorry, but nobody gets a free pass... even Senator Clinton...
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 12:58 PM by zulchzulu
If Senator Clinton says statements where she cares more about the so-called "war on terror" than other candidates, felt more pain from 9/11 than others because they weren't from New York or launches an attack on Obama because one of his contributors voiced an opinion she didn't like, she gets the same scrutiny as anyone else...and she is directly responsible for her words and deeds.

If her campaign representatives use phrases like "you're with us or you're against us" when being asked about contributing to multiple candidates, that kind of arrogance (and actual GOP phraseology) doesn't help Senator Clinton's "brand".

Playing the Pity Party Card that she is somehow immune to criticism is yet another reason why many don't find her their first choice for candidate. Politics is hardball, not tiddleywinks.

If you can't bear the scrutiny now, imagine when the campaign begins in full swing.





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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I hope you like President McCain or Guiliani
because that is what you will get if you let the right wing memes win.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Your logic is bereft of intelligence
Imagine if a candidate is not accountable for their words and we all have to sit back like obedient prisoners. Is that what you want?

If so, it is duly noted. And it would appear that your candidate would prefer that undemocratic behavior.






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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Evidently you can't read
I don't have a candidate. It is clearly stated in the OP. As to your second point, we have President Bush precisely because we allowed the press to lie about first Gore and then Kerry. If we let them lie about Clinton or Obama or Richardson or Edwards or Clark or whomever, we will have President Guliani or McCain.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 05:55 PM
Original message
Evidently you can't comprehend...
My point is that no one gets a free pass to say careless or inane remarks. Period.

If that person in question is Senator Clinton and some of her recent comments that MANY found troubling, she gets what she deserves.

It's not "right wing" to question someone's intentions with what would seem to most as careless statements. I won't fall for that bullshit. Sorry...

By your implication, questioning ANY candidate's statements, policies or issues means that it leads to a Repuglican getting into office. That is not merely naive, it is simplistic nonsense at best. And least of all, it is undemocratic.




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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. DUPE - Self delete
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 05:56 PM by zulchzulu
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. imagine when the campaign begins in full swing" - yep -after Dems have done the GOP job of planting
the lies the GOP want to sell about her.

She is not my candidate - yet. Indeed no one is. But the Reagan 11th Commandment of not tearing down other party members makes for winning elections - and I want to win this one more that I want the world to know how much some Democrat has not measured up to my high standards.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. So accountability for one's own statements is not worth scrutiny?
I know... we should not criticize Senator Clinton's own statements for fear that we will be called "Republicans".

If someone takes a crap on someone's front lawn, it certainly must be the person who owns the front lawn that is liable. After all, it was their lawn. Otherwise, no one would have taken a crap there.

If Senator Clinton says that she cares more about "the War on Terror" than some other candidates or that she felt more pain than other Americans from the aftereffects of 9/11... it's our fault that we point it out. I get it now.

:wow:













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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. Um, the Right despises candidates *other than* Hillary, you know?
It's not like she's the only "poor, innocent victim of the Left." Far from it.

In fact, she benefits from it perhaps more than any other Democrat.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
47. Here's some information
not from the RW.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
50. I'd NEVER reify RW talking points reHillary. I wish Hillary didn't reify RW talking points
about OTHER Democrats.

And I HIGHLY doubt the RW would use what many of us have to say about the Clintons as any talking point for them.

The reason we are wary of another Clinton term is because they protected the Bushes at the expense of this nation and our party.
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
57. Thanks for a little context,
The Bush-Conservatives forums get ignored while IWR, Hillary is Bush, Kerry is a wimp, threads get hashed over and over again. I swear some days, one third of the posts are done by RWingers trying to make this board a joke with democrat bashing. It's like the enemy is Hillary and Kerry, not Bush/Rove/Cheney.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
58. It is disconcerting to come to a place called DEMOCRATIC Underground
... only to find a nonstop campaign to annihilate Hillary Clinton by any means necessary.

Some of you are doing Karl Rove's dirty work for him.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. So if someone criticizes Hillary Clinton, they're doing Rove's work? Ah
see Post 19.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. you and others aren't discerning enough to know what criticism means
Edited on Sun Feb-25-07 01:39 AM by AtomicKitten
Which is ironic since the very mention of John Kerry if not prefaced by acclaims and adoration is met with such outrage by you and others here; you guys can't hit 'alert' fast enough demanding that threads be locked.

Then, and this is the money point, you and the same people post thread after thread with assaults in the form of innuendos, blog blather, polls - all meant to annihilate Hillary, one of our candidates in the upcoming presidential election, here at DU 24/7.

And you have the nerve, the unmitigated audacity, to try to pretend you have a clue what criticism means? Pahleeeze. That's funny.

On edit: I talked about it here, another thread you and your friends had locked because it offended your delicate sensibilities:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3095230&mesg_id=3095230
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. I do know what criticism means
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. please do pretend that all of DU
... doesn't know what the Church of Kerry is all about.

I'll go make some popcorn.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Not pretending.
Really don't care!


"Church of Kerry"

Rich!

:rofl:
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Remember what Kerry said...
Remember when Kerry said*:

"I am the only candidate running that really cares about the War on Terror, not like some these other candidates".

And when he said: "I live in Massachusetts. Planes that hit the World Trade Center left from Boston. People were from Boston. I think I deserve to be the one to say that I suffered more that most other people on that fateful day."

And his flag burning idea that it should be a federal crime to burn one. I mean, yunno, people get real pissed when they see burning flags on the teevee.

I totally stood by his side though when someone contributed money to another campaign and had the audacity to say something negative about him. Damn straight...they should give the money back...



* Kerry never said any of this, but if he did, no one on DU should ever, ever criticize him. I mean...dissing a Democrat...that's like so Karl Rove, yunno?





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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. Kerry is not running for president.
Nice try, ZZ, and thanks for coming out. I like to see people in the light.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. He isn't? Really?
Whudemigonnado.....whah....

Surely, you caught my sense of irony and sense of indignation that somehow any criticism of a Democrat is to be seen as "gwoin' Repug"...

If that's what the Democratic Party stands for now, well then it's good to see that out in the light...



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