The Kerry camp's silence is deafening and conspicuous on Torricelli

[helleborient]

And the connections with Gephardt and Kerry and the "Osama" ad

Hmmm...is there really something here?

To quote an old favorite..."something nasty in the woodshed?"

[slinkerwink]

1. I'm eager to see an explanation from the Kerry camp

[janx]

2. Has Neel written the Kerry campaign that you know of?

I haven't checked the blog.

[GumboYaYa]

5. The only explanation available is an ugly one.

The inside the beltway Dems decide to take Dean down and they colluded to use the most vile Repuke tactics possible to do it. To admit that is to admit the validity of Dean's arguments about needing to elect someone not beholden to inside the beltway interests. I'll be amazed if there is any Kerry supporter big enough to acknowledge that.

[lancdem]

10. Nobody "took Dean down"

Conspiracies, conspiracies. :eyes:

[GumboYaYa]

11. Right and the Willie Horton ads did not

impact Dukakis' campaign either.

[helleborient]

16. Why did all 5 news networks admit taking the "scream" too far?

Perhaps they realized their unfair impact...

When Kerry was failing, his supporters screamed media conspiracy, but when the media supports him, presto! no problem with the media...even when they admit wrongdoing.

[library_max]

91. Oh, so it's now Kerry's fault that the networks overreacted to the speech?

Gee, I'm so sorry I called this thread conspiracy theory. I don't have a more dismissive epithet handy, but I'll sure start working on one now.

[flpoljunkie]

100. Kerry's Statement from Dec 15th denouncing Osama ad from poster, Nathan

Kerry's statement from Dec. 15 denouncing Osama ad from Nathan Newman.

December 15, 2003
I'm Satisifed

Just received this letter from the Kerry campaign. It asserts no connection to the Osama-Dean ads and condemns them-- not quite strongly enough for my taste but enough:

Thanks for sending John Kerry your thoughts and concerns about
the recent advertisements sponsored by Americans for Jobs, Health Care
and Progressive Values. The John Kerry for President Campaign is not involved in any way with these advertisements. John Kerry does not agree with independent expenditure ads by nameless, faceless entities, in fact in his 1996 Senate race,
Kerry kept them out of the campaign. Using Osama bin Laden in this ad is certainly inflammatory and a distraction from a real issue of who has the foreign policy experience and vision to lead the country in a dangerous world. John Kerry agrees with you that this campaign should be about the issues facing America...

The slowness of the response (36 hours) does show that the campaign still needs to get up to Internet speed.

Posted by Nathan at December 15, 2003 09:31 PM !
TrackBack
(1)

[eileen_d]

3. Who do you mean by "the Kerry camp"

If you mean DU Kerry supporters... why would you think we have any information about Toricelli?

[helleborient]

4. There is usually a rush to defend John Kerry...why not now? (n/t)

[eileen_d]

6. I'll defend Kerry

I won't defend Toricelli.

[helleborient]

8. Will you defend Kerry's embrace of Torricelli? The "unassailable"

relationship?

[eileen_d]

9. I won't respond to McCarthyism.

And that is where these discussions of the Osama ad always lead.

Count me out.

[helleborient]

27. Unrepentant political corruption is welcome in the Kerry campaign?

Wow...drum out those against the war by saying we're "crying in our teacups" but celebrate "unassailable" relations with corrupt politicians who barely escaped prosecution.

No thanks...count me out for now.

[Eloriel]

71. McCarthyism is a hunt for communists under every bed

Non-existing communistis, I might add.

How are these questions McCarthyism?

[library_max]

92. Guilt by association was a hallmark of McCarthyism. /nt

[eileen_d]

103. Thank you.

That was what I meant. Also I'm hearing an "Are you now or have you ever been..." tone on this thread. I'm sure it's not just me.

[JVS]

7. Do they expect us to vote Kerry if he rat-fucked us?

[LuminousX]

12. That which is ignored, is often forgotten

They know that the longer they go without addressing it, the greater the chance that something else will distract from it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. Sorry. Dean's comments leading up to this

and his response to the attack ad lead me to conclude he could never have survived the GOP assault.
Some fighter Dean turned out to be. :shrug:

[ShimokitaJer]

22. So it's our fault for not withstanding the attack?

Rather than Kerry's for initiating it? Wow, you're right. I guess I will vote for Kerry now.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. You're assuming Kerry initiated it. There is no proof of that

And Kerry even condemned the ad and claimed no knowledge of it.
But I don't care where it came from- Dean needed to fend it off.

[ShimokitaJer]

55. First, show me where he condemned it

I remember him condemning a similar tactic used against Cleland, but I don't recall him specifically condemning the ads attacking Dean.

But if Kerry did condemn it, then tell me if you agree with Kerry. Do you condemn the ad and anyone who is shown to be associated with it? Do you think Kerry should sever all ties with Torricelli? Do you think anyone proven to be associated with the ad should be censured?

Oh, that's right. You don't care where the attack came from. Amidst all the cries for party unity, you could care less by a Dem on Dem attack using the worst tactics of the Bush administration. Well don't be surprised if some of us do care where the attacks came from.

[Guaranteed]

41. Speaking of which, do you think Kerry would have put the Nazis on trial?

Or just had them all shot?

After all, they started a war that killed millions, and killed millions of civilians by their own hand.

[helleborient]

58. Yep, and Kerry used Dean's support of our constitution against him...

It was a bad thing to say we should follow our constitution in prosecution of Saddam Hussein....at least according to John Kerry.

[Eloriel]

73. How should he have handled it?

[Gman]

14. What the hell does Torricelli have to do with Kerry

and when does Kerry come clean about his connections to the Rosenbergs and/or the abduction of Lindburgh's baby? What does Kerry know about Bruno Hauptman that he's not telling us?

Geez, folks... Kerry's on roll. Be happy we have a good candidate. These "issues" are nothing.

[helleborient]

17. A candidate who leaves the party open to being painted as Nixonian

Dirty tricksters.

IF there is no problem...address it NOW...don't allow the drip, drip, drip

Unless the allegations are true.

[The Magistrate]

26. Be Serious, Sir

To you really expect that the Republicans will attack Sen. Kerry in the general election with charges that he knocked Gov. Dean out of the Democratic primary race, or that they will paint him as Nixon come again? They will be far too busy making their own advertisements morphing Sen. Kerry's face into that of Bin Laden or Ms. Fonda.

Politics is a blood sport, Sir, and people tend to prefer ruthless practicioners of the craft over goody two-shoes types who can neither throw or take a solid punch.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[helleborient]

29. I have more scruples than support "ruthless practitioners"

So yes, if that's being a loser...fine.

I guess this does show the nastiness that John Kerry's campaign draws to itself like moths to a flame, right?

[The Magistrate]

45. You Are Welcome To Your Scruples, Sir

To me, votes are much to be prefered: these can evict reactionaries from office....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[helleborient]

49. I prefer to not be called "Sir"...

Are you sure that is an accurate indication of my gender anyhow?

[The Magistrate]

52. It Is What You Claim, Sir, In Your Forum Profile

If you have mis-identified yourself there, you may be a more interesting person than hitherto perceived....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[helleborient]

56. Your posts sound to me like you're addressing a BDSM master...

And that's what makes me uncomfortable.

[The Magistrate]

60. You Think Rather Highly Of Yourself, Sir

What an extraordinary thing to say!

[helleborient]

68. And you are simply rude in denying my request...

Ah well you embrace dirty politics, fear and hate as well...enjoy.

[The Magistrate]

70. 'Kill One, Warn One Hundred.'

[helleborient]

59. Not to mention rudely denying my request... (n/t)

[bowens43]

28. That's silly

if there's no problem there is nothing to address. It's up those who make the claims to provide supporting evidnce. You're kind of doing what the bush administration did to iraq, "prove that you don't have WMD'.

[helleborient]

32. We have proof Torricelli bankrolled the ads and is bankrolling Kerry...

Why is Kerry not disavowing himself of the connection...it's very easy to do.

I guess it's simple, John Kerry sees no problem with political corruption...if taking our nation's democracy and politics into the gutter wins votes.

Sickening.

[paulk]

76. what connection?

Toricelli is fundraising for Kerry. Torecelli donated money he had raised from his Senate campaign, his own money, to an organization that ran an ad against Dean.

Kerry is responsible for what Torecelli does with his own money?

You're saying Kerry was responsible for the ad. Nonsense. There is no connection.

[Gman]

44. Paint the party as Nixonian????

From the perspective of picking up RW votes in November, we should be so lucky.

In any event, I'm wondering if you were even around during Nixon's administration.

You know Kerry's the indisputable front runner when he's being attacked by the right wing as a Massachusetts liberal and from the left wing as Nixonian.

Kerry must be doing something very right. And that would be appealing to the center which determines who wins or loses races.

[helleborient]

47. Oh yes..those who disagree must not have been around...so stupid...

I was around during the Nixon administration....and I know my history.

Kerry is doing a right thing embracing political corruption in the form of Torricelli if winning is all that matters.

My view of the Democratic Party is better than that.

[Gman]

54. Then let me be very specific...

were you of voting age in 1968 or even 1972?? I didn't mean were you born in 1968 or 1972? If you were of voting age then you would know an awful lot about Nixon. You would know an awful lot more than to say the party now would be painted as "Nixonian".

I really don't think you have a clue what you're talking about.

[helleborient]

57. Thanks for the personal attack...I do know a lot about Nixon

And I know that John Kerry attacked using Osama Bin Laden to smear Max Cleland.

And I know that Howard Dean has rightfully claimed that the Republican Party since the 1968 Nixon election has used race as the bogeyman to win elections in the South.

I know the Osama ad ran in South Carolina.

And I know hatred of Osama Bin Laden bleeds over into hatred for those of Arab descent in many parts of this country.

So...using Osama Bin Laden as a political prop in South Carolina does seem to me to be closely allied to the racist dirty politics that were taken to an art form by the Nixon administration.

How is the attempt to draw connections between known terrorist Osama Bin Laden and Howard Dean that far different from drawing connections between convicted criminal Willie Horton and Michael Dukakis?

John Kerry now knows that Torricelli bankrolled the Osama ad (which used similar tactics to those he attacked when they were used against Max Cleland) and yet, he still embraces Torricelli for his role in fundraising in the Kerry campaign. I would expect Torricelli is the type of person Nixon would have embraced in his campaign if he were a Republican.

[Gman]

64. Too bad you took that as a personal attack, sir

because it wasn't. The facts are just that those that weren't alive and politically aware during the Nixon years can't really know what it was like. If you ever had someone show up at your group of friends hangout and start acting real friendly and start to try to hang out with you and your friends; and then you later find out the guy worked for the government and was investigating you and your friends like what happened to me and my friends, you can say you knew the Nixon administration.

That being said:

1) So gee whiz... an Osama ad ran against Dean in SC. Politics is a full contact blood sport and not for the faint of heart. Its probably best that Dean is getting out because he sure couldn't handle the heat in November.

2) Nixon had nothing to do with the Willie Horton ad.

3) So Torricelli bankrolled the Osama ad. Big deal. I thought he was in prison. Would it make any difference if George Soros bankrolled the ad?

[helleborient]

69. Another who loves political blood sport...don't be annoyed at those

Who choose not to participate.

[Gman]

79. Then I hope you'll understand when I say

if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

[drfemoe]

82. Or gallup like the cockroaches

then stay under the sink?

[helleborient]

85. If you can't refrain from childishness (the 'sir' garbage) don't speak to

Adults.

[pacifictiger]

102. your blood sport attitude is

why the majority of normal americans are apathetic about voting - the fix is already in.

[JVS]

106. I take that to mean that Kerry is fair game

[The Magistrate]

66. A Scorecard Might Be Helpful, Sir

It is news to me that Sen. Kerry attacked Sen. Cleland in South Carolina using Bin Laden's face....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[helleborient]

75. You don't know much about recent politics...oh well...here it is...

Republicans in Georgia used an ad morphing Max Cleland's face into that of Osama Bin Laden. John Kerry decried that as inappropriate.

Apparently, he hasn't gotten that through to his supporters who seem here to embrace similar tactics against Howard Dean.

He draws those who love political bloodsport like moths to a flame.

[The Magistrate]

77. Your Statement, Sir

Was that Sen. Kerry attacked Sen. Cleland in South Carolina using Bin Laden's face. This provided me even more amusement than your pretension above you could be regarded a dominant male by me, and so drew a small comment in response.

It may be safely left to others to draw the conclusion which of us is better informed about contemporary politics, but the odds are likely to tilt against one who conflates the state of Georgia with the state of South Carolina....

"The floggings will continue until morale improves."

[Gman]

80. So kindly explain, sir,

why Max Cleland was making campaign appearances with Kerry and endorsing him.

It doesn't seem to me that Cleland was offended by Kerry. Would you disagree?

[helleborient]

83. Kerry was offended by the ads being used against Cleland, but not...

When a similar tactic is used against Howard Dean.

He was being duplicitous, and I suspect neither of you can understand simple English...obviously, you don't know recent political history.

Duh

[The Magistrate]

89. Good Lord, Sir!

Duplicitous? A professional politician! Damn my eyes, for having had the sight of such a thing!

Why do you think there are two sides to every mouth, Sir?

It remains for you to engage, Sir, the substance of your claim above that Sen. Kerry smeared Sen. Cleland in South Carolina using Bin Ladin's face. Enquiring minds are looking forward to your citing some supporting account for that claim....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

95. You Will Be Surprised, Sir

At just how many people fluent in English read this sentence of yours from No. 57 above --- And I know that John Kerry attacked using Osama Bin Laden to smear Max Cleland --- as conveying the meaning that it brought to me, namely, that Sen. Kerry attacked Sen. Cleland using that device. The best that can be said is that your expression is imprecise, and open to a variety of interpertation. A better phrasing might have been alonmg such lines as --- Sen. Kerry attacked the use of Bin Ladin to smear Sen. Cleland --- that would not be open to such a variety of interpertations, and might have saved us all a good deal of trouble, though at some expense to humor.

You then, two paragraphs down in the same No. 57 above, state "I know the Osama ad ran in South Carolina," and then again refer to "...using Osama Bin Laden as a political prop in South Carolina..." and do so with no indication you are no longer refering to the race involving Sen Cleland. Sen. Cleland, of course, was Senator from Georgia, and has never run for office in South Carolina. This raises some question of how much attention you have actually paid to current events....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[library_max]

93. The Magistrate always addresses everyone as Sir or Ma'am.

It's a matter of style. It's not aimed at you personally.

[helleborient]

97. Typically, someone who has concern for who they address...

Will respond politely to a request.

And it is not always...I have watched it today "The Magistrate" is inconsistent...

[helleborient]

98. I have strong Quaker background where titles are not used...

The Magistrate chooses to ignore any possibility of this, and stick with insisting his/her way of addressing is automatically correct.

Insensitive, at the least.

[The Magistrate]

99. No One Has Ever Accused Me Of Sensitivity, Sir

Or of over-much scruple, or any of a number of other things some are misguided enough to put a great value on.

Your background is of no more concern to me than mine is to you. People who seek insult out find it everywhere; no one else can do a thing about it, for what a person seeks he will surely find.

"It is wrong to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."

[Larkspur]

62. Torricelli was one of Kerry's fundraisers. That's a fact, not fiction.

And Torricelli was driven out of the senate on ethics violations.

[library_max]

105. Guilt by association. /nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. Maybe Dean's supporters should ask why his own donors contributed

Perhaps a vote of NO CONFIDENCE?

Dean Donors Paid for Some Anti-Dean Ads

WASHINGTON — A group that ran an ad using a picture of Osama bin Laden to portray Howard Dean as unqualified to fight terrorism was financed by donors including labor unions, former Democratic Sen. Bob Torricelli and at least two of Dean's own donors.

Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values ran at least three ads in December against Dean in early-voting states, a finance report the group provided Tuesday showed.

The group spent $15,000 on an ad aired in South Carolina and New Hampshire that showed a picture of Bin Laden and said that Dean lacked the experience to take on terrorists.

The group aired two anti-Dean ads in Iowa, the first state to hold a delegate contest. One criticized Dean's history of endorsements by the National Rifle Assn.; the other blasted his support for the North American Free Trade Agreement and said he supported cuts to Medicare.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-antidean11feb11,0,3609207.story?coll=la-headlines-politics

[helleborient]

18. The Dean donors contributed to all candidates...Kerry, Gephardt did not

The article is very clear on that.

[GumboYaYa]

23. That's disingenuous.

You know that there are some people who spread money around every Dem campaign as a stop-loss measure. That's exactly what these two so-called "donors" were doing. The article states that they donated to virtually all the campaigns. Moreover, the amounts of those contributions pale in comparison to those made by Torricelli.

It's abundantly clear what was going on here. To obfuscate the issues with disingenuous assertions does nothing to absolve Kerry and Gephardt of their participation in this Repuke tactic.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Two points:

Kerry spoke OUT against the ads and called for their removal, Gephardt did not, so it is also disingenuous to place all the blame at Kerry's door. Why would he waste his own donor's money?

Politics IS dirty and how is Dean to deal with what Republicans will do?

I spoke out against the ads. I think they were slimy, but I also think that Dean should have been prepared given his own rhetoric in the matter.

[helleborient]

38. This has moved on to...why embrace Torricelli?

Who is a walking posterboard for political corruption.

Even Torricelli's contributions to the Dean ads were probably illegal.

Politicians in Illinois know better than to publicly embrace Dan Rostenkowski.

Any Kerry comments now against political corruption are suspect until he cuts his ties to Torricelli, and explains why he embraced them in the first place.

[GumboYaYa]

42. I would have more confidence in Kerry if he would

come out and denounce any connection with Torricelli. Kerry is a smart politician who knows how to keep his hands clean. Let's see him reject the Torricelli money and I may buy your argument.

There is no doubt abut Gep's involvement here. I live and work in Missouri so I have to deal with Gep and Joyce's evil ways on a regular basis.

I have been fairly careful to point my blame at the whole inside the beltway establishment on this one. I may have mentioned Kerry in my post, but I'm pretty consistent in calling this a DLC problem not a Kerry problem. Until Kerry rejects the Torricelli money and support, he will be partially to blame in my book.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

94. I agree and would be more comfortable with that too

[library_max]

19. If you're waiting for a response to every conspiracy theory,

you're going to have a long wait. Possibly they have better things to do.

[joshcryer]

21. Conspiracy? We've been trying to find out who did the smearing...

...and we did. It's not our fault they have fairly strong connections to the Kerry camp.

[helleborient]

24. Yep, Reagan had better things to do than address Iran Contra...

And Nixon had better things to do than address Watergate.

If you want to swallow a primary financial supporter of Kerry bankrolling using Osama Bin Laden (and remember John Kerry attacked him being used against Max Cleland) to smear another Democrat...and Kerry's silence on the matter...that's fine - continue to support political corruption - it seems to be a winning ticket.

[joshcryer]

33. Some people here don't care about that as long as they 'win.'

Honestly and truely. People, for example, think PATRIOT ACT is okay as long as it means someone gets to win. It's sickening.

[helleborient]

34. Yep, the Nixon-Reagan-Bush mode..winning is everything

Very disgusting.

[MoonAndSun]

20. I need to know what Kerry has to say about this, it stinks and all

Democrats should want to know if a fellow Dem (Toricelli) could sink this low to destroy another Dem. And I want Kerry's views on this, did he know what Toricelli was doing?

When these ads first came out, the unions whose money was being used repudiated the ads and demanded their money back. I did not hear anything about Toricelli during this time. So that tells me that Toricelli knew about the ads.

[brentspeak]

25. Kerry needs to dump Torricelli

I almost tossed my lunch when I heard that Torch is raising funds for Kerry. Torricelli is an arrogant jerk whose near-corruption would make Oil Can Cheney proud. Knowing that he needed all the help he could get when an ethics probe was inevitable, Torch supported Ashcroft's nomination as AG. Didn't do him any good after all was said and done.

And this is a Democrat from NJ who's saying this!

Brentspeak

[slinkerwink]

30. welcome to DU!!!!!

[DU GrovelBot]

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RUN C:\GROVELBOT.EXE
 
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Click here to donate.

[bigtree]

37. Do you have a list of Dean's donors?

John Kerry Releases Fundraiser Names in Effort to Improve Transparency
Challenges Democratic Rivals to Follow His Lead
October 21, 2003
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2003_1021b.html

Donor List PDF Format:
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/donors.pdf

Democratic Presidential Candidate John Kerry today released the names of supporters who raised over $50,000 for his presidential campaign. The list has been posted for the public on his web-site at www.johnkerry.com

John Kerry said, “Throughout my career I have fought for reform in the campaign finance system and I believe strongly that voters should know who is funding campaigns. There is no better reason for transparency than the Bush Administration’s blatant reward of campaign contributors with tax breaks and special favors at every turn.”

“I hope that every Presidential candidate will show their commitment to transparency by releasing the same information from their campaigns.”

The Washington Post said, “Mr. Kerry's release of the names puts him in the forefront of meaningful disclosure


Kerry's 'Special Interests' over 20 years compared to Bush's 10 years:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=312392

[dave29]

39. Would you like us to list all 300k+ of them?

averaging around 70 bucks each. Surely there's some dirty money in there somewhere..

Kerry took 100k from Toricelli. Yuck.

[helleborient]

40. All donors are required to be released by FEC disclosure law (n/t)

[bigtree]

48. Can you vouch for the credibility of all of them?

[helleborient]

50. Kerry can disavow connection with Torricelli...why isn't he?

That is the question here...

If you have proof a major fundraiser for Howard Dean is known to have participated in widespread corruption, please, let us know!

[bigtree]

61. From The Center for Public Integrity

While governor, Howard Dean pushed for utility contract provisions that aided the power companies, but cost Vermont families millions of dollars in skyrocketing rates. Vermont has the sixth highest utility rates in the country, due in part to a series of long-term contracts between its major power companies.

After years of pushing for Central Vermont Public Service Corp. and the smaller utilities it held to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contracts, Dean's Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of the excess costs—which could soar into the hundreds of millions of dollars. Central Vermont Public Service Corp. donated more than $10,000 to

Dean's Fund for a Healthy America PAC—a hefty contribution in a state that limits campaign contributions for statewide offices to $400.


___________________________________________________________________

From The League of Women Voters of South Carolina:


Special interests pour billions of dollars into political campaigns:


"Some incumbents have generally not favored leveling the playing field toward a more genuine representative democracy – especially so for Democrats trying to prevent the challenge of third-party candidates.

Vermont’s Governor Dean and Massachusetts’ House Speaker Finneran each devised transparent strategies to strip designated funds from their state’s campaign finance program.

Governor Dean successfully convinced the legislature that while the law’s contribution caps were awaiting resolution in court, the fund itself should be sacrificed to the lean budget year. Therein, candidates for Lt. Governor and Governor are back to gathering record contributions. Substantial momentum continues for upgrading Vermont’s Clean Elections law. "

http://www.lwvsc.org/Pages/Newsletters/Aug02/0802_10.htm

_________________________________________________________________

Dean said the four-term senator from Massachusetts was beholden to special interests after The Washington Post and The New York Times reported that he had accepted more than $600,000 in donations from lobbyists over the course of his 19 years in the U.S. Senate.

Criticizing Kerry, Dean told reporters in Tucson: "It turns out we've got more than one Republican in the Democratic race. I've already said I thought (retired Gen.) Wes Clark was a Republican and now apparently John Kerry has the same financing habits."

>>>

In Kansas City, Missouri, Kerry said, "The only people that have contributed to my campaigns to the U.S. Senate are individual Americans. Now are some of those individual Americans lobbyists? Yeah, sure.

"And if anybody in America thinks that a $1,000 contribution against 14 million in a campaign is somehow going to sway my vote they're, there's a level of cynicism about this."

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/381249|top|01-31-2004::20:07|reuters.html

[joshcryer]

43. "Follow his lead?" Dean and others have been disclosing...

...regularly. And on time, unlike Kerry.

[Nicholas_J]

108. Yet Dean has recived over 900,000

Dollars bundled from law firms, and over 700,000 from universities yet asserts that these are among his small contributors because they are contributed in small sums, by obviously wealthy special interests:

Dean collected almost $719,000 from education interests through Sept. 30, ranking that sector third most-lucrative behind retirees ($1.6 million) and lawyers ($932,000).

http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,1413,87~11268~1870457,00.html

All that is necessary is to have these special interests send in the funds and report thme as having been donated in 100, or 80 dollar increments, to state that your campaign contributions are coming from small donors.

Clever, but misleading.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

46. Kerry denounced the ad and called for their removal

Kerry wasn't persoanlly responsible for the ad, like you would like to suggest.

I haven't seen more dirty politics than I've seen from Dean himself. the pissing war he started with Gephardt in Iowa, for example. It bit him in the ass. He's still going negative. Calling candidates Republicans.

Dean doesn't need ads. He's a slimy advertisement all to himself.

[joshcryer]

51. Source?

Thanks.

[Robb]

96. Yeah, I'd like to see that too. nt

[helleborient]

53. Kerry is personally responsible for meeting with and embracing Torricelli

I would think he might know a thing or two about Torricelli's past...but it simply doesn't seem to bother John Kerry if it means money.

There is the issue...simple.

John Kerry seems like he will embrace corruption and dirty politics for money.

[John_H]

63. I love the truth: Toricelli's a dick. Dean can't beat chimp.

[seaglass]

65. Maybe is this wasn't the 5th or 6th thread on this today.

Amazing that Dean only condemns those who didn't contribute to his campaign.

[ibegurpard]

67. They're hoping to run out the clock before this blows up in their faces.

eom

[helleborient]

72. It's now in a Yahoo News Headline...time to rate it a 5!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040211/pl_nm/campaign_dean_dc&cid=615&ncid=1963&sid=96378800

[MoonAndSun]

74. I just rated it "5"

eom

[NewYorkerfromMass]

78. Dean's freudian slip: "President Kerry."

At one point, Dean inadvertently referred to Kerry as, "President Kerry."

[eileen_d]

104. Wow, for once I agree with Dean! n/t

[killbotfactory]

81. If Dean wins, the terrorists have won.

That's the message strong Gephardt and Kerry supporters spent 600k promoting. If you agree with this kind of politics, donate to the Kerry campaign, today!

[helleborient]

86. Isn't terrorism win at all costs bloodsport? Hmmm....

I see a connection.

[library_max]

88. Nah, you guys aren't terrorists.

You're throwing the wrong kind of bombs.

[KFC]

87. Silence? I didn't hear anything.

At any rate, he doesn't have to worry about Dean.

[corporatewhore]

101. Something is rotten in DC...

but then again it always is ;)

[Nicholas_J]

107. Because obviously

The vast majority of the public do not beleive Dean's take on it, and believe Kerry's, again. Dean is being viewed as simply being more and more desperate. And he is.

Dean could be said to be far more responsible for distributing incorrect information smearing Kerry, such as his supposed vote against the Harkin Resolution for farm aid, which Kerry was a sponsor of, and Deans refusal to stop distribting the information even aftrer he was totally aware that it was false, the attempts of Dean suporters to infiltrate the Kerry campaign in Iowa, adn other similar atempts by the Dean campaign to smear Kerry, which Dean can be considered to be far more directly involved with, than Torcelli's action's. Kerry did not support these advertisement, pay for them, endorse them, or pay for them. Dean and his campaign however did directly pay for the false smears on Kerry, and his campaign did pay the people who tried to infiltrate the Kerry campaign. Directly.

AS Lincoln incorrectly stated about the Gettysburg Address "That Speech wont scour"

Deans pathetic and desperate attempts to link this directly to Kerry simply wont scour. They havnt. The voters do not accept Deans attempts to do so. In fact, I would wager that the person who will be most adversely effected by the claims will be Dean himself.

Though the F.E.C. states the contributions by Torcelli's Senatorial campaign fund to the organization who put out the advertisement seems fuzzy, because such groups are not listed among those allowed to be contributed to with Torcelli's campaign funds, neither are they among organizations who are prohibited from being contributed to by FEC rules. Neither did Torcelli directly contribute to the advertisements.


It would be necessary to prove that those who contributed to the organizations did so with fore-knowledge that the money was being used to pay for the advertisements. That is, they would have had to contribute to a fund that they were aware of was expressly for the purpose of creating the advertisment.

This one is over before it began. And Dean will be knocking one more nail into his campigns coffin by pursuing it.

[DannyRed]

109. Sorry but this is incorrect

It would be necessary to prove that those who contributed to the organizations did so with fore-knowledge that the money was being used to pay for the advertisements. That is, they would have had to contribute to a fund that they were aware of was expressly for the purpose of creating the advertisment.


We already know that the Unions who contributed to the group that made the ad withdrew their money and disavowed both the group and the ad as disgusting, wrong, misleading and dishonest.

What would be NECESSARY is to prove that the group that financed the PAC/527 (whatever it was) is directly linked to powerful backers and supporters of one candidate or another.


Oh, wait, I can do that!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/17/elec04.prez.dean.osama/

"The group was founded in November as a nonprofit committee known as a "527" -- named for the section of the tax code that limits its requirement to disclose the source of its funding."

"Its leadership includes two people with ties to Dean's Democratic rivals -- David Jones, a former aide to Rep. Dick Gephardt, and Robert Gibbs, a former spokesman for Sen. John Kerry's campaign."

And, as noted previously, was heavily bankrolled by Toricelli, and by Skadden Arps....both of which are currently INSTRUMENTAL in Kerry's campaign.

Back to you, NICK.

[DannyRed]

110. Oh, and I should say,

That if you would bother to read the information available both in this and the other threads, you would know that the Skadden Arps, David Jones, and Gibbs groups were PAID by the 527 to create the a, to vet the ad for possible libel concerns (that would be the law firm's job), and to get the ad on the airwaves in IOWA, NEW HAMPSHIRE and SOUTH CAROLINA.

In short, Kerry's main backer (Skadden Arps), a former close colleague and current fundraiser (Toricelli), and former close colleague and campaign spokesman (Gibbs), together with a former Gephardt staffer (Jones) put together, produced, funded, and vetted an advertisement fundamentally identical to the advertisement that Chambliss put out against Cleland.

Sometimes, Nick, if it looks and smells like dogshit, it is not necessary to taste it to be sure.

[DannyRed]

111. Three or four threads on this issue,

and such desultory, unsatisfactory, lame responses...deflections...dodges...

I am still willing to wait for a decent explanation, however.

[DannyRed]

112. Just another little kick

just a few more times....

I am conducting some research.

[DannyRed]

113. And another

KICK for good measure.