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I see nothing wrong with Hillary telling people who disagree with her war vote to look elsewhere

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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:21 PM
Original message
I see nothing wrong with Hillary telling people who disagree with her war vote to look elsewhere
She's focused on ending the war now, not on the past that can't be changed. What's done is done and she is focused now on fixing the mess and getting the troops home. And if all you are focused on is the past, you should look elsewhere.

She's an honest politician who isn't pandering to you and telling you what you want to hear and DU has a cry-baby hissy fit.

I respect her for doing everything she can do win the general election, even if it pisses off people here.

She knows, like any sane person knows, republicans will eviscerate a female commander in chief if she admits to making a mistake and appearing weak in a time of war.

She knows if she apologizes that it may help her win the nomination, but doom her to win the general.

She's doing it the only way she knows how to win it all. She's going to raise $150 million and have more than enough money to fight a nationalized primary in every state and will let the chips fall where they may.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Repugs always set up others in lose-lose situations.
And then the Dems step in and finish the job :(
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. How come you still have hearts?
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I kept mine. Could not bear to part with them......
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. So, her game plan is
playing to the repups instead of the 'base'? :eyes: Isn't that special.
Her war vote is the least of my worries. Her general wtfso attitude rubs the wrong way.
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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. do you want a winner or not?
There has been ONE and only ONE democratic president that has been inaugurated (I won't say elected) in the past 30 years.

And it was a CLINTON.

CLINTON may be a dirty word at DU but they know how to get inaugurated. Winning elections isn't enough. YOu got to get inaugurated as Gore and Kerry know.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. I never said Clinton was a dirty word.
"they know how to get inaugurated" .. so does Bush. Twice. Your statement is illogical.
If BILL Clinton was running, I would vote for HIM. The name 'Clinton' has no bearing on electibility. The crown may be due to pass to 'her'. But not if a whole bunch of us have our say in the matter.

"Winning elections isn't enough". So your solution is to have Dems fall lock step in with Hillary.
Keep 'em coming.
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oldtimecanuk Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think with her inability to say I was wrong will probably do just...
as she is asking! How hard is to say, I made a mistake and should not have voted for the war? Hillary is a Hawk, and thus scares the crap outta me and I'm certain that I am not alone.

ww
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Me too, I just want to hear what the candidates really think, for a change.
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 06:36 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
That did not have the sound of "handler"ese to it.

She's been hounded and hounded about this. She is making it crystal clear, her answers over the last few weeks are her stand.

Whether one agrees with her, or not, is fodder for another thread. She took a chance, she threw the down the gauntlet. Finally, our candidates are acting like people instead of robotrons.

I think she's learned a f***ing lot from that damned vote. If she could go back and change it, I don't doubt that she would.

Anyway, I appreciate that she said something that many of us would say if we were in the same situation of having a SNAFU shoved publicly in our face, over and over.

It doesn't mean I'll now vote or not vote for her. So much time between now and Nov. 2008.MKJ
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. How hard is to say, I made a mistake and should not have voted for the war?
Republicans will eviscerate a female commander in chief if she admits to making a mistake? I do not want a president who has shown they are incapable of learning, and incapable of saying they made a mistake. That is what has gotten us where we are. No mistakes. Ever. Strong. Stay the Course. Bullshit.
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Herman Munster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. do you want to win elections?
Your vote and quite frankly 90% of votes are irrelevent.

General election campagins are won and lost based on a narrow swath of 10% of voters.

These voters for the most part are apolitical types too busy to follow politics closely. What they see are bits and pieces on tv and in the newspaper. They like strong leaders. Hillary knows that her only chance to win these 10% of voters is to do what she is doing now.

That's politics. It all boils down to that 10%.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I see. You are with us or you are against us.
I disagree with much of what you say and stand by my previous post and questions. Guess you would consider me a traitor then also. So be it.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. Logic escapes any of the 'reasoning'
highlighted in your posts. You might be able to write campaign ad copy. No logic required.

The 90% are "irrelevent"? What if I'm part of the 10% and not the 90%?
What if 'the' 90% didn't bother to vote? Then elections would be determined by 100% of the voters?
What if I'm a 10% and switch to the 90% side? Would that skew the percentages?

It all boils down to 'that' 10%... which is nowhere certain.
You aren't on any get out the vote teams, are you?
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
47. "90% of votes are irrelevant"
In the GE, yes, I'll concede that point. However, she's not yet reached the GE and this tactic has the potential to turn Democratic voters against her in the primary. It's not as if she's the only viable candidate in the race and many Democrats are turned off by such a show of arrogance.
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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. So she will be * in dress if elected?
Obstinate, incorrigible and too proud to own up to her mistakes!
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. She wouldn't be Mr.bush but would have some of the same problems as he, yes.
Indeed, obstinate, incorrigible and too proud to say she made a mistake.
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left is right Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. And my reply to HRC is thanks for the tip
and I think I will (look elsewhere). Her actions strike me of being day late/dollar short
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Wow! I get it now: we have a choice in the primaries!
Maybe that is why I get so much email from Kucinich, Edwards and Clark! Never a one from Mme. Clinton...how odd.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. :-) It does sound like an invitation, does it not.
MKJ
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. I agree
she said exactly what she should've said - if you can't abide her vote, support somebody else.

I agree with her.

The funny part is that if she had something different, people here would be all over her for pandering. She can't win with this crowd - luckily, she doesn't need this crowd one tenth as much as this crowd thinks she does.
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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. She's a woman ...
... and as always she's judged more on style than substance. If she retreats, she'll be seen as weak, while a man who changes his mind will be seen as thoughtful. I am certain that if Hillary apologized for her vote, the same people demanding her apology will not be placated and her opponents will imply that she's a weak-willed, indecisive woman.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. Actually, NO!
Barbara Boxer is a woman, and gets plenty of respect here.
Invalidates your whole point, doesn't it?+

Embarrasing: :blush:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. you're right,and I hope people take her up on that
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. Those who quickly apologized for IWR vote are flipfloppers or
are confirming that they did not have enough brains to
make the right decision. HRC made the right decision to
vote for IWR based on what was known THEN. 95% of leaders
in either party reached the same decision based on
what was known about Iraq & Saddam.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. 95% of leaders in either party?
What country are YOU living in?

More than 50% of the Dems in the House said NO!

And ALL of these Dem Senators were NO voters:

* Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
* Barbara Boxer (D-California)
* Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)

* Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
* Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
* Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
* Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
* Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
* Bob Graham (D-Florida)
* Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)

* Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
* Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
* Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
* Patty Murray (D-Washington)
* Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
* The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
* Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

You need a new calculator.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Ok it was aprox 80% of senate consisting of both parties ...
since you listed 21 no votes. But please don't get
lost in the forest looking at the trees. The exact
number of senators opposing IWR was not my point.
I was not posting in a statistics forum.

My main point was, to repeat, overwhelming majority of
senate, or an absolute veto proof, absolute filibuster
proof majority voted WITH HILLARY R. CLINTON.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. In the HOUSE, the majority of the DEMOCRATS voted NO.
Do you like siding with the REPUBLICANS on this issue?
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. I like siding with the intelligence briefing given by OUR services
The decision Hillary made was the correct one based on
security concerns as were defined by OUR CIA. That is my
whole point. Security of country trumps all other issues.

Even the intelligence services of Britain, France, Egypt,
Bill Clinton, Al Gore, on and on, were all concerned about
Saddam possibly hiding WMD's. So why did some vote against
IWR? Did they have better intelligence sources? If so, why
did they not come forward with it? Or was it pure pacificism?
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Because they didn't trust Bush with UNILATERAL authority to go to war
If they had inserted the Levin amendment which would've forced Bush to get UN approval before using military action instead of just suggesting it, then voting for the resolution would've been appropriate.

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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. That is good reason but not enough to chance national security
jeopardized by a possiblwe WMD attack on homeland.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. The testimony of Wes Clark and others says otherwise
Don't get me wrong, Clark agreed that Saddam may possess weapons. His point was that Saddam was by no means an IMMINENT threat to the United States. The intelligence presented to Congress didn't show that Saddam was an imminent threat. It showed that he was a potential threat that needed to be addressed. Bush and his cronies were the only ones claiming that he was an imminent threat.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. That's the point everyone forgets.

It didn't matter if Saddam had NBC weapons or not. We originally sold him chemical weapons because he was using them against the Islamic faction that is trying to expand Islam by violent means.

Saddam was a monster, but he was a monster fighting a proxy war on our behalf. You had to be a naive idealist to take him out, more interested in your personal political career than in the security of this country, or a complete idiot.


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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. IMHO the real reason Saddam was forced out was his policy
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 04:04 PM by fuzzyball
of rewarding families of suicide bomber attackers in Israel
with $25,000 cash which was a considerable reward in the
local purchasing power. There was no shortage of willing
bombers with the knowledge their family would benefit and
they would receive their reward in Allah's brothel with 72
virgins. Saddam passed out the checks openly and not covertly.

The neocons feared that if Saddam was willing to reward suicide
bombers in Israel, what was stopping him from sending suicide
bombers in United States armed with Saddam's WMD's. With 20-20
hindsight we now know it was a false assumption.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. I agree with Clark that Saddam was not an imminent threat
but we are talking about IWR votes and what was the
justification for HRC to vote yes. She made a wise choice
in deferring to CIA intelligence. I would rather a threat
be neutralized BEFORE it becomes imminent.

Having said that, if I was the president, I would certainly
have tried other avenues before mounting a full invasion. The
inspectors were still in Iraq. Granted Saddam was playing cat
& mouse with them but so long as they were not kicked out smart
policy would have been to give it more time.

Also, the pro-invasion neocons badly mis-calculated the can of worms
of sectarian violence once the brutal dictator was overthrown.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. If Saddam wasn't an imminent threat then there was no need for such a strong resolution
Democrats should have used the power as the majority party in the Senate to force the Levin Amendment and told Bush either take it or you get no authorization at all. Bush's hand would've been forced and he would've had to defer to the UN who would've forced him to let the weapons inspectors finish their job.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Wait a minute, you and I and Clark agree it was not imminent
but the majority in congress obviously reached other
conclusions. If CIA assessment was correct, and an attack
did take place, can you imagine the political fallout for
those who voted against IWR? If you examine the list of
congress individuals voting NO, I would guess most are
from very safe seats.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Now you're mixing up believing the intelligence with political fallout
For one, I don't accept political fallout as an excuse for a vote that is this big

Despite a close race and popular support for the IWR, the guy in my avatar voted NEA and went back home to explain to his constituents why. I expect no less from someone who wants to be President of the United States.

Secondly, the only people suggesting that Saddam was an imminent threat to the Untied States was the Bush Administration. If you took their word as absolute, then yes you would believe that it was an imminent threat. If you listened to various different sources and formed your own opinion, then you would've easily come to a different conclusion.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. I can't recall if "imminent" was the main issue or just WMD's
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 07:11 PM by fuzzyball
being developed for future attack. Let's not forget that
Saddam actually used chemical weapons on civilian population.
Let us not forget that Saddam actually had a working nuclear
reactor. Let us not forget Saddam deployed biological weapons
during war with Iran. I just can't sit in judgement of those
who voted to remove this megalomaniac from power even though
it was not 100% certain he was planning an immenent attack on
US assets. On hindsight ofcourse those who voted no on IWR were
more right than those who voted but yes. But since NO ONE WAS
100% CERTAIN of Saddam's intentions, it is wrong to blame HRC
on any one else who voted yes.

And like I said, it is never wise to wait until a building
threat becomes imminent. Europe sat on its butt while Hitler
pursued arms build-up and Poland paid the price. United States
sat on the sidelines inspite of the axis powers build-up of arms
and the sailors at Pearl Harbor paid the price. It is never safe
when dictators have a penchant for arms-buildup. It is best to do
surgically remove a tumor before it gets too big. Pacifism is not
good cure for the evil people who pop up in this world.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. "But since NO ONE WAS 100% CERTAIN of Saddam's intentions"
To be 100% certain, we must BLOW EVERYONE UP.
CLEARLY, Iran is next... there's just NO arguing with your logic.

We now need 100% certainty.

How do you LEAVE THE HOUSE every morning?

:scared:

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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Does Iran have a dictatorship with megalomaniacal tendencies?
Edited on Wed Feb-21-07 02:45 AM by fuzzyball
If yes, the answer is simple....remove the dictator.
if no, the answer is even simpler....no need to start a war.
I am not privy to CIA findings. The president gets briefed
and can make better decisions.

History of world is littered with megalomaniacal dictators allowed
to build up arms and eventually war becomes unavoidable. It would
have saved a lot of blood if Hitler, Stalin, etc. were removed
sooner than later.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Does the United States have a leader with megalomaniacal tendencies?
Who issues "signing statements"?

Who creates "The Office of Faith-Based Initiatives" by EXECUTIVE FIAT?

"If yes, the answer is simple....remove the dictator.
if no, the answer is even simpler....no need to start a war.
I am not privy to CIA findings. The president gets briefed
and can make better decisions.

History of world is littered with megalomaniacal dictators allowed
to build up arms and eventually war becomes unavoidable. It would
have saved a lot of blood if Hitler, Stalin, etc. were removed
sooner than later."

Better get busy, fuzzyball.....

You've got a LOT of executing to do.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. War needs to be an absolute last resort
It was clear that Saddam Hussein should be address and frankly he already was considering the no fly zones and other sanctions against him.

But Bush's rhetoric before the IWR and after showed that he had no interest in war as a last resort and that he was trigger happy to get us stuck in this quagmire. Democrats should have insisted on the Levin Amendment to prevent this form happening, period. If the IWR had included the Levin Amendment I would've had no problem with Hillary's vote.

Comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler doesn't fly. Appeasement in the 1930's didn't work because while the allies were appeasing Hitler, he was becoming more powerful than the allies and thus a very real threat to conquer the world. We could've sat on our asses for a decade and Saddam Hussein still wouldn't have a prayer against the United States in conventional warfare. Secondly, we weren't appeasing Saddam Hussein, we were enforcing the no fly zones, using economic sanctions, and forcing the weapons inspectors into the country. There's a middle ground between appeasement and war.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. We agree that Saddam was a marginal case...
of maniacal dictatorship. His past record was probably
what did him in. I can't argue with your statement that
Saddam was a shadow of his power before Gulf War I.

But Saddam could have easily avoided the attack if he had
complied with the UN resolutions and given a free reign to
the inspectors. I think there were more than a dozen violations
by Saddam of UN resolutions. My guess is the reason he was playing
cat and mouse with the inspectors was because he did not want Iran
to know that Iraq had no weapons left to defend itself against
another war with Iran.

What it boils down to is that there was enough grey area to vote
for IWR.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
39. Exactly, they should never have caved into public sentiment..
The publics memory has a shelf life of about 6 wks- (as calculated by newspaper publications.)

Why people are turning this into a wedge issue is beyond me. I've heard excuses ranging from stupidity
to incompetence. Sen Clinton is absolutely correct in NOT apologizing for the IRW Vote. I commend her
on her strength and fortitude in the face of adversarial public opinion..

She is taking a leadership role and STANDING her ground!

To those that have a problem with her refusal to apologize for something she's NOT guilty of..I say:

IT'S the WAR STUPID! END this WAR! GET the TROOPS HOME!

Precisely what she's all about!

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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. I see nothing wrong with the statement
In fact, I prefer it to the apologies. However, I think anyone who made that war vote has no business running for president in 2008, not having shown that kind of tragically poor judgment, especially with the costly result of that vote still unfolding. I'm not looking for a fight, this is my personal opinion.
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shoopnyc Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. The End of the Era of the Single Issue Voter...
It seems to me that America is at a crossroads with regards to what was known as the "Single Issue Voter". For the 2008 Election, I foresee a much more sophisticated electorate, due to the fact that all candidates, on both sides, do not not fulfill 100% of their respective bases wishes, (which, I believe, to a certain extent, is healthy).

Most recently, this has been most effectively been applied through the abuse of the "wedge issue". This construct became the norm during the rise of the 24/7 news cycle, somewhat holding them together. But the internet has diffused a lot of this, and people have a greater capacity now to look at all sides of any candidate on any side.

My fear is that people that do not follow politics closely will throw their hands up with a "they're all bad" collapse. But I think the situation in Iraq will encourage, shall we say, a more "nuanced" , and complete media coverage of all campaigns. I hope.
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. She took a similar attitude back in 1992. I think it was at the
height of the "bimbo eruptions", and she simply said 'look, if you don't like my husband, don't vote for him'. I think we all remember who got elected.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
24. "She's an honest politician who isn't pandering?"
You don't really believe that do you? The Clintons are the poster children for pandering and so called triangulation.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
25. To be honest, that doesn't seem like a very smart political move...
All that statement does is literally point people to other candidates. It is not to her political advantage to bring up what many consider one of her biggest weaknesses as a reason to "look elsewhere".

If the war was still popular, I could see that statement essentially making sense, especially if done in a sardonic fashion. But certainly the Democratic base and even many Republicans find the war as a disaster.

If she wishes to keep the issue hanging over her head like Damacles' Sword, that's her decision.




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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
28. it is precisely the opposite of pandering
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 12:10 AM by AtomicKitten
The truth is folks that are against her find even her spatial existence in the universe unpalatable, an unmistakable visceral response. She is held to not only a higher but a different standard than the other contenders.

She gave her detractors the gate, and I shake my head because they even bitch about that. But I will reiterate: if you don't like her, don't vote for her. Done.
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fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Sometimes I wonder if the posters on DU hate HRC more than
the republicans, and I am at a loss as to why. HRC
has and will have a very similar administration as Bill
Clinton, the only democrat since FDR to win 2 terms.
The BJC era will go down in history as one of the most
prosperous periods in American history with almost zero
loss of soldiers lives.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Having written for a Green paper at one time
I know precisely why. You can see it in those that incessantly post about how Bill Clinton is in cahoots with the Bush family, how he covered up for their crimes. They lay at his feet all the ills of the world, conveniently overlooking the good he accomplished and progress he made as president when 6:8 years were in partnership with a hostile GOP Congress, a gossipy sycophantic media, and Ken Starr up his arse.

The mal/discontent of some is often misconstrued for "third party types" when it is more a psychological mindset of disgruntled, unhappy, unproductive personalities who enjoy rallying negativity rather than working with others in an atmosphere of compromise toward the shared goal of progress and the betterment of the human condition.

And if Hillary gets the nod, which is definitely possible, what will happen to those that are working overtime here 24/7 to annihilate her? I trust DU will hold true to their policy of not allowing the tearing down of our nominee.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. yeah, we know who they are...they're not working at midnight..
They're getting their rest for another big day tomorrow.
They're just waiting with baited breath for another round of
'the artist painting with feces' quote.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. good post
also - what Hillary is doing is setting herself apart from that same group of "third party types" (so overrepresented on this board). This is a calculated political move and it will not hurt her either in the primaries or in a general election.

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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
54. You've identified one reason --
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 02:50 PM by Morgana LaFey
HRC
has and will have a very similar administration as Bill
Clinton,


Yeah, there were some good things about Bill's 8 years, but he wasn't what we thought he was, either, and did some BAD things as well. Some very bad things, actually. Some of those bad things are gnawing away at our economy and way of life as we speak and probably will be for many years.

Don't need no damn DLC corporatists, nor wolves in sheep's clothing, in the White House no more. Had enough, thank you very little.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Considering that Clinton's time in office was preceded by
twelve years of Reagan/Bush and followed by (so far)6 years of Bush the younger, I find it hard to accept the argument that Clinton's "bad things" are "gnawing away at our economy and way of life as we speak and probably will be for many years".

some of the Clinton administration accomplishments -

Economy: the Strongest Economy in a Generation

Longest Economic Expansion in U.S. History. In February 2000, the United States entered the 107th consecutive month of economic expansion -- the longest economic expansion in history.

Moving From Record Deficits to Record Surplus. In 1992, the Federal budget deficit was $290 billion - the largest dollar deficit in American history. In January 1993, the Congressional Budget Office projected that the deficit would grow to $455 billion by 2000. The Office of Management and Budget is now projecting a surplus of at least $230 billion for 2000 - the third consecutive surplus and the largest surplus ever, even after adjusting for inflation. Compared with original projections, that is over $685 billion less in government drain on the economy and over $685 billion more potentially available for private investment in this one year alone. The 2000 surplus is projected to be 2.4 percent of GDP -- the largest surplus as a share of GDP since 1948. This is the first time we have had three surpluses in a row in more than a half century, and it is the second consecutive surplus excluding Social Security.

Paying Off the National Debt. In July 2000, the Treasury Department announced that the United States will pay off $221 billion of debt this year -- the largest one-year debt pay down in American history. This will be the third consecutive year of debt reduction, bringing the three-year total to $360 billion. Public debt is on track to be $2.4 trillion lower in 2000 than was projected in 1993. Debt reduction brings real benefits for the American people -- a family with a home mortgage of $100,000 might expect to save roughly $2,000 per year in mortgage payments. Reduced debt also means lower interest rates and reduced payments on car loans and student loans. With the President's plan, we are now on track to eliminate the nation's publicly held debt by at least 2012.

More Than 22 Million New Jobs. 22.2 million new jobs have been created since 1993, the most jobs ever created under a single Administration -- and more new jobs than Presidents Reagan and Bush created during their three terms. 92 percent (20 million) of the new jobs have been created in the private sector, the highest percentage in 50 years. Under President Clinton and Vice President Gore, the economy has added an average of 248,000 jobs per month, the highest under any President. This compares to 52,000 per month under President Bush and 167,000 per month under President Reagan.

Fastest and Longest Real Wage Growth in Over Three Decades. In the last 12 months, average hourly earnings have increased 3.8 percent -- faster than the rate of inflation. The United States has had five consecutive years of real wage growth -- the longest consecutive increase since the 1960s. Since 1993, real wages are up 6.5 percent, after declining 4.3 percent during the Reagan and Bush years.

Household Income Breaks $40,000 for First Time in History. Income for median households rose $1,072, or 2.7 percent, from $39,744 in 1998 to $40,816, marking an unprecedented fifth year of significant growth in income. In 1999, the median income of African American households increased from $25,911 in 1998 to $27,910 -- an increase of $1,999, or 7.7 percent, which is the largest one-year increase ever recorded. The income of the median Hispanic household, adjusted for inflation, increased from $28,956 in 1998 to $30,735 in 1999 -- an increase of $1,779, or 6.1 percent, which is the largest one-year increase ever recorded.

Unemployment is the Lowest in Over Three Decades. Unemployment is down from 7.5 percent in 1992 to 3.9 percent in September, the lowest in more than three decades. The unemployment rate has fallen for seven years in a row, and has remained below 5 percent for 37 months in a row -- over three full years. Unemployment for African-Americans fell to the lowest level ever recorded, and for Hispanics it remains at historic lows.


Highest Homeownership Rate in History. The homeownership rate reached 67.2 percent in the second quarter of 2000 -- the highest ever recorded. Minority homeownership rates were also the highest ever recorded. In contrast, the homeownership rate fell from 65.6 percent in the first quarter of 1981 to 63.7 percent in the first quarter of 1993. There are almost 9 million more homeowners than in 1993.

Lowest Poverty Rate Since 1979. In 1999, the poverty rate dropped from 12.7 percent to 11.8 percent, the lowest rate in two decades. Since President Clinton and Vice President Gore passed their Economic Plan in 1993, the poverty rate has declined from 15.1 percent in 1993 to 11.8 percent in 1999 - the largest six-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years (1964-1970). There are now 7 million fewer people in poverty than in 1993, and over 2.2 million, or over 30 percent, of this decline occurred during the past year.

Largest One-Year Drop in Child Poverty in More than Three Decades. Under President Clinton and Vice President Gore child poverty has dropped by 25.6 percent -- from 22.7 percent in 1993 to 16.9 percent in 1999. While this is still too high, it is the lowest child poverty rate since 1979 and includes the largest one-year decline since 1966, which occurred from 1998 to 1999. The African American child poverty rate has fallen 28.2 percent since 1993, and dropped from 36.7 percent in 1998 to 33.1 percent in 1999 -- the largest one-year drop in history and the lowest level on record (data collected since 1959). The Hispanic child poverty rate has fallen by 26 percent since 1993, and dropped from 25.6 percent in 1998 to 22.8 percent in 1999 -- the lowest level since 1979.

Families and Communities: Strengthening America's Working Families

Tax Cuts for Working Families. 15 million additional working families received additional tax relief because of the President's expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit. In 1999, the EITC lifted 4.1 million people out of poverty - nearly double the number lifted out of poverty by the EITC in 1993. This year, the President proposed expanding the EITC to provide tax relief to an additional 6.8 million hard-pressed working families.

Helping Parents Balance Work and Family. The Family and Medical Leave Act allows workers to take up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave to care for seriously ill family members, new born or adoptive children, or their own serious health problems without fear of losing their jobs. Nearly 91 million workers (71% of the labor force) are covered by the Family and Medical Leave Act and millions of workers have benefited from FMLA since its enactment. President Clinton has proposed expanding FMLA to allow workers to take up to 24 unpaid hours off each year for school and early childhood education activities, routine family medical care, and caring for an elderly relative.

Improved Access to Affordable, Quality Child Care and Early Childhood Programs. Under the Clinton-Gore Administration, federal funding for child care has more than doubled, helping parents pay for the care of about 1.5 million children in 1998, and the1996 welfare reform law increased child care funding by $4 billion over six years to provide child care assistance to families moving from welfare to work. Since 1993, the Clinton-Gore Administration has increased funding for the Head Start program by 90 percent, and in FY 2000, the program will serve approximately 880,000 children - over 160,000 more children than in 1993.

Increased the Minimum Wage. The minimum wage has risen from $4.25 to $5.15 per hour, increasing wages for 10 million workers. The President and Vice President have called for an additional increase to $6.15 over two years.

Enacted the Workforce Investment Act. The Workforce Investment Act reformed the nation's employment and training system so that it works better for today's workers. The WIA empowered individuals by giving adults more control and choice over their training or retraining and providing universal access to core labor market services; streamlined job training services by consolidating a tangle of individual programs into a simple system and creating a nationwide network of One-Stop Career Centers; enhanced accountability through tough performance standards for states, localities, and training providers; and increased flexibility so that states can innovate and experiment with new ways to train America's workers better. All 50 states are now up and running and the number of One-Stops has reached 1,200 nationwide.

Signed the Adoption and Safe Families Act. The Adoption and Safe Families Act, which was based in large part on the recommendations of the Clinton-Gore Administration's Adoption 2002 report, made sweeping changes in adoption law so that thousands of children in foster care move more quickly into safe and permanent homes. In 1999, 46,000 foster care children were adopted - more than a 64 percent increase since 1996 and well on the way to meeting the President's goal of doubling the number of adoptions from 28,000 in 1996 to 56,000 by 2002.

Putting Families First. The President and Vice President developed and implemented first-ever plan to protect our children from tobacco and end tobacco marketing targeted to young people. They also required the installation of V-chips in all new televisions, and encouraged schools to adopt school uniform policies to deter school violence and promote discipline.

Supporting Community Service. In just five years, AmeriCorps has allowed 150,000 young people to serve in their communities while earning money for college or skills training.

President's One America Initiative. President Clinton has led the nation in an effort to become One America: a place where we respect others' differences and embrace the common values that unite us. The President has been actively involved in public outreach efforts to engage Americans in this historic effort, and followed up on the work of the Initiative on Race by appointing Robert B. (Ben) Johnson as Assistant to the President and Director of the new White House Office on the President's Initiative for One America. The office is working to ensure that we have a coordinated strategy to close the opportunity gaps that exist for minorities and the underserved in this country, and build the One America we want for all of our nation's children. The President's FY 2001 budget includes $5 million for One America dialogues to promote and facilitate discussions on racial diversity and understanding. President Clinton has also appointed the most diver! se Cabinet and White House staff in history, presiding over an Administration that looks like America.

Welcoming New Americans. Since 1993, the United States has welcomed 4.4 million new American citizens. Faced with this unprecedented number of applications, the Administration undertook an initiative that has significantly reduced the backlog of citizenship applications and is restoring timely processing. Furthermore, the Administration's English as a Second Language/Civics Education Initiative will provide limited English speaking adults with instruction in both English literacy and critical life skills necessary for effective citizenship and civic participation.

Providing Fairness for Legal Immigrants. The President believes that legal immigrants should have the same economic opportunity and bear the same responsibility as other members of society. In 1997 and 1998, the President fought for and succeeded in restoring disability, health and nutritional benefits for certain legal immigrants, and he will continue to press for additional restorations. The President and Vice President have also taken executive actions to ensure that immigrants who are eligible for benefits are not deterred by language or other access barriers.

Education: Largest Investment in Education in 30 Years

Opening the Doors of College to All Americans. President Clinton proposed and enacted the HOPE Scholarships and Lifetime Learning tax credits, which in 1999 were claimed by an estimated 10 million American families struggling to pay for college. The HOPE Scholarship helps make the first two years of college universally available by providing a tax credit of up to $1,500 for tuition and fees for the first two years of college. The Lifetime Learning Tax Credit provides a 20 percent tax credit on the first $5,000 of tuition and fees for students beyond the first two years of college, or taking classes part-time (in 2003, this increases to $10,000 of tuition and fees). In his FY 2001 budget, the President has proposed expanding the Lifetime Learning tax credit with a College Opportunity tax cut, which will give families the option of taking a tax deduction or claiming a 28 percent credit for the first $5,000 of college tuition and fees until 2002, and $10,000 thereaft! er.

Expanding Work Study and Pell Grants. One million students can now work their way through college because of the President's expansion of the Work Study Program, and nearly four million students will receive a Pell Grant of up to $3,300, the largest maximum award ever. The maximum award has increased 43 percent under the Clinton-Gore Administration. This year President Clinton proposed a $77 million increase in Work Study to continue to support one million awards, and a $200 increase in the Pell Grant maximum award, to raise it to $3,500.

Making College More Affordable. The Clinton-Gore Administration has cut student fees and interest rates on all loans, expanded repayment options including income contingent repayment, and improved service through the Direct Loan Program. Students have saved $8.7 billion since 1993 through the reduction in loan fees and interest rates.

More High-Quality Teachers with Smaller Class Sizes. The Clinton-Gore Administration won a second installment of $1.3 billion for the President's plan to hire an additional 100,000 well-prepared teachers to reduce class size in the early grades, when children learn to read and master the basic skills. Already, 29,000 teachers have been hired through this initiative. This year's budget provides $1.75 billion, a $450 million increase -- enough to fund nearly 49,000 teachers.

Turning Around Failing Schools. 11 million low-income students in 13,000 school districts now benefit from higher expectations and a challenging curriculum geared to higher standards through Title I-Aid to Disadvantaged Students. The FY 2000 budget provides a $134 million accountability fund to help turn around the worst performing schools through such measures as overhauling curriculum, improving staffing, or even closing schools and reopening them as charter schools. This year, the President is proposing to nearly double investment in this fund to $250 million to help ensure all children receive a quality education.

Providing Safe After-School Opportunities for 850,000 Students Each Year. The 21st Century Community Learning Centers program will provide enriching after-school and summer school opportunities for 850,000 school-age children in rural and urban communities in FY 2000. Extended learning time has not only been shown to increase achievement in reading and math, but to decrease youth violence and drug use. Funding for this program more than doubled from FY 1999 to FY 2000. For FY 2001, the President's budget calls on Congress to invest $1 billion in 21st Century Community Learning Centers and to ensure that all children in failing schools have access to quality after-school and summer school opportunities. This proposal will double funding and triple the number of students served to 2.5 million.

Expanding Choice and Accountability in Public Schools. The Clinton-Gore Administration has worked to expand public school choice and support the growth of public charter schools, which have increased from one public charter school in the nation when the President was first elected to 2,000 today. More than 250,000 students nationwide are now enrolled in charter schools in 30 states and the District of Columbia. The President won $145 million in FY 2000 -- and has proposed $175 million in his FY 2001 budget -- to continue working toward his goal of establishing 3,000 quality charter schools by 2002.

Teaching Every Child to Read. The President challenged Americans to commit to the effort to ensure that every child can read well and independently by the third grade -- 1,400 colleges and universities took up his challenge, and 26,700 college work-study students now serve as reading tutors to help every child learn to read.

Expanding Access to Technology. With the Vice President's leadership, the Clinton-Gore Administration has made increasing access to technology a top priority. The President and Vice President created the Technology Literacy Challenge Fund to help connect every school to the Internet, increase the number of multimedia computers in the classroom and provide technology training for teachers. They increased overall investments in educational technology from $23 million in 1993 to $769 million in FY 2000, and tripled funding for Community Technology Centers to reach at least 120 low-income communities. Through the E-rate program, they secured low-cost connections to the Internet for schools, libraries, rural health clinics and hospitals, benefiting more than 80 percent of America's public schools. They also increased investment in education research to ensure all children benefit from educational technology. In 1999, 95 percent of public schools were connected to the I! nternet -- up from just 35 percent in 1994.

Supporting Local Education Reform Efforts. The President signed the Education Flexibility Partnership Act of 1999 (Ed-Flex) into law in April 1999, giving all states greater flexibility in the use of federal education funds in exchange for greater accountability for helping all students reach high academic standards.

Established the GEAR UP Mentoring Program for Middle School Children. President Clinton and Vice President Gore created and expanded GEAR UP, a nationwide mentoring initiative, to help over 750,000 low-income middle school children finish school and prepare for college. The President's FY 2001 budget would expand services to 1.4 million students.

Providing Early Education to Nearly 900,000 Children with Head Start. The President and Vice President have expanded Head Start funding by 90 percent since 1993. Head Start will reach approximately 880,000 low-income children in FY 2000 and, with the President's proposed increase for the program, will be on the way to reaching the President's goal of serving 1 million children and their families by the year 2002. The Administration also created Early Head Start, bringing Head Start's successful comprehensive services to families with children ages zero to three, and set high quality standards for both programs.

Crime and Drugs: Lowest Crime Rates in 25 Years

Lowest Crime Rates in a Generation. When President Clinton and Vice President Gore took office in 1993, the violent crime rate in America had more than quadrupled during the previous three decades. Since then, America has experienced the longest continuous drop in crime on record. The overall crime rate is the lowest in 25 years, and in 1999 crime fell for the eighth consecutive year nationwide. Violent crime rate fell 7 percent in 1999 and 27 percent since 1993. Since 1993, the murder rate is down more than 25 percent to its lowest point since 1967, and gun violence has declined by more than 35 percent.

Putting 100,000 More Police on the Streets. In 1999, ahead of schedule and under budget, the Clinton-Gore Administration met its commitment to fund an additional 100,000 police officers for our communities. As a part of the COPS Program, the President announced a distressed neighborhood grant program to increase community policing in high-crime and underserved neighborhoods. To help keep crime at record lows, in fall 1999, the President won funding for the first installment toward his goal to hire up to 50,000 more officers by 2005. This year, the Clinton-Gore budget includes over $1 billion to continue the successful COPS initiative to hire more officers, hire new community prosecutors, give police the tools and technology they need to fight crime, and to fund community-wide crime fighting efforts.


More Than Half a Million Felons, Fugitives and Domestic Abusers Denied Guns. Since taking effect in 1994, the Brady Law has helped to prevent a total of more than 536,000 felons, fugitives, domestic abusers, and other prohibited purchasers from buying guns. In November 1998, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) took effect under the Brady Law, allowing access to a fuller set of records that law enforcement officials can use to conduct checks of all prospective gun purchases -- not just for handguns. As of March 2000, NICS has conducted over 10 million background checks on gun purchasers, and stopped an estimated 179,000 illegal gun sales.

Cracking Down on the Most Serious Gun Criminals. President Clinton and Vice President Gore have established a tough records of enforcement of our nation's gun laws by helping law enforcement take serious gun criminals out of our communities and put them where they belong: behind bars. The number of federal firearms cases prosecuted by the U.S. Attorneys increased 16 percent, from 4,754 in 1992 to 5,500 in 1999. And, by providing federal, state and local law enforcement and prosecutors with the tools they need to crack down on gun criminals, overall gun prosecutions have increased 22 percent. In addition, the average sentence for federal gun offenders has increased by nearly two years, and federal law enforcement is successfully targeting the most serious gun offenders. Between 1992 and 1998, the number of federal gun defendants sentenced to prison for three years or more went up 20 percent, and the number sentenced to five years or more went up 12 percent.

Largest Gun Enforcement Initiative in History. This year, President Clinton has proposed the largest gun enforcement initiative ever. The initiative would provide a record $280 million to add 500 new federal ATF agents and inspectors to target violent gun criminals and illegal gun traffickers that supply guns to criminals and juveniles, and fund over 1,000 new federal, state, and local gun prosecutors to take dangerous gun offenders off the streets. This initiative would also expand the ATF's crime gun tracing program by providing tracing equipment and training to 250 additional law enforcement agencies and by creating the first nationally integrated ballistics testing system. The new ballistics testing system will help law enforcement use the unique "fingerprints" of bullets or shell casings left at the scene of a crime to identify gun criminals -- even in the absence of a firearm.

Developed Comprehensive Anti-Drug Strategy Including a $195 Million National Youth Anti-Drug Media Campaign. The President appointed Barry McCaffrey, a four-star general, to lead the Clinton-Gore Administration's anti-drug strategy as the nation's Drug Czar. In 1997, President Clinton and Director McCaffrey launched the National Youth Anti-Drug Media Campaign, the largest targeted effort ever to teach youth about the dangers of drugs. The Campaign uses the full power of the modern media to encourage young people to reject drug use, and helps parents, teachers and other responsible adults talk to kids about drugs and get more involved in the lives of young people. Illicit drug use among young people age 12-17 declined for the past three years, and the average age of first-time use went up. Since 1997, overall youth drug use is down by more than 20 percent, and youth marijuana use has declined by over 25 percent. Overall drug use is down since its peak in the 1970's! , drug-related murders have fallen by 48 percent since 1992, and youth drug use is leveling off or declining.

Preventing Violence with the Safe Schools/Healthy Students Initiative. Evidence shows that a comprehensive, integrated community-wide approach is an effective way to address the problems of school violence and alcohol and other drug abuse and promote healthy childhood. In 1998, President Clinton unveiled the Administration's Safe Schools/Healthy Students Initiative (SS/HS), an unprecedented joint effort involving the Departments of Education, Justice, and Health and Human Services to help communities design and implement a comprehensive approach, including educational, mental health, social service, and law enforcement services for to help combat youth violence. SS/HS has provided $146 million to 77 local education authorities who have established formal partnerships with local mental health and law enforcement agencies. This year, the President has called for a $100 million expansion of the Safe Schools/Healthy Students Initiative.

Fighting Hate Crimes. The President enacted the Hate Crimes Sentencing Enhancement Act in 1994. He held the historic White House Conference on Hate Crimes, where he called for passage of the Hate Crimes Prevention Act -- bipartisan legislation which would strengthen hate crimes laws and make it clear that America will not tolerate acts of violence based on race, color, gender, national origin, religion, sexual orientation or disability.

Protecting Children from Sex Offenders. President Clinton signed Megan's Law and the Jacob Wetterling Crimes Against Children and Sexually Violent Offender Registration Act, requiring states to set up sex offender registration systems and require community notification when sex offenders are released from prison.

Welfare Reform and Community Empowerment: Moving Millions of Americans from Welfare to Work

Lowest Percentage of Americans on Welfare in 35 Years as More Recipients Go to Work. President Clinton has kept his promise to reform the welfare system and move more Americans from welfare to work. The percentage of Americans on welfare is at its lowest level since 1965 as record numbers of people move from welfare to work. Since January 1993, the number of people on welfare has fallen by more than half, from 14.1 million to 6.3 million. More than 1.3 million welfare recipients went to work in 1998 alone, and the percentage of adults still on welfare who were working reached 33 percent in 1999, compared to just 7 percent in 1992 -- nearly a fivefold increase. Through the Welfare to Work Partnership launched by the President, more than 20,000 businesses have hired 1.1 million former welfare recipients since 1997.

Creating New Tools to Help Families Move from Welfare to Work. The 1997 Balanced Budget Act signed by President Clinton included $3 billion to move long-term welfare recipients and low-income non-custodial fathers into jobs. The President's Access to Jobs initiative helps communities design innovative transportation solutions, such as van services, to help former welfare recipients and other low-income workers get to work. President Clinton has secured 110,000 new housing vouchers in the last two years to help welfare recipients and hard-pressed working families move closer to job opportunities, and this year he is proposing $690 million for 120,000 new housing vouchers. And the Welfare-to-Work Tax Credit provides tax incentives to encourage businesses to hire long-term welfare recipients.

Doubled Child Support Collections. President Clinton signed into law the toughest child support crackdown in history. Federal and state child support programs broke new records in 1999, collecting nearly $16 billion -- double the amount collected in 1992. The number of paternities established rose to a record 1.5 million in 1999 - more than triple the number from 516,000 in 1992. The number of child support cases with collections more than doubled during the Clinton Administration, from 2.8 million in 1992 to 4.5 million in 1999.

Teen Births Down to the Lowest Rate on Record. The teen birth rate has fallen eight years in a row, dropping 20 percent from 1991 to 1999 to the lowest rate in the 60 years data on teen births have been recorded. The teen pregnancy rate is also at the lowest rate on record. To build on this progress, the President's budget includes funding for "second chance homes" for teen parents.

Child Abuse Declines for Five Years in a Row. The number of children abused and neglected has decreased approximately 11 percent from a record 1,018,692 in 1993. While this represents progress, President Clinton and Vice President Gore continue to work to protect the health and well-being of America's children, and ending child abuse.

Expanded Investment in Urban and Rural Areas. The Clinton-Gore Administration created 31 Empowerment Zones and more than 100 Enterprise Communities, including 50 rural ECs, which have created new jobs, new opportunities and stronger communities.

Encouraging Investment in Underserved Communities with the New Markets Initiative. President Clinton's New Markets Initiative will help bring economic development and renewal to communities that have not benefited from the soaring economy by spurring more than $22 billion in new investment in urban and rural areas. On July 25, 2000, the House passed the President's New Markets Initiative in a historic bipartisan agreement that included extension and expansion of Empowerment Zones, and an increase in the Low Income Housing Tax Credit. The President has taken three New Markets Tours of underserved communities, which have helped generate more than $1 billion in private sector investment commitments.

Providing Incentives to Save. President Clinton signed legislation creating Individual Development Accounts, providing incentives for low-income families to save for a first home, higher education, or to start a new business, a key part of his 1992 community empowerment agenda. In FY 1999, $10 million was awarded to establish savings accounts for over 10,000 low-income workers in 40 communities, and an additional $10 million will be awarded in FY 2000. The President's budget provides $25 million for IDAs in FY 2001 and proposes to allow low-income working families to use IDAs to save for a car that will allow them to get or keep a job.

Health Care: Increasing Access and Improving the Nation's Health

Enacted Most Comprehensive Medicare Reforms in History. In the 1997 Balanced Budget, the Clinton-Gore Administration protected, modernized and extended the life of the Medicare Trust Fund while offering new options for patient choice and preventive care. New preventive benefits passed include coverage of annual mammograms, coverage of screening tests for both colorectal and cervical cancer, and a diabetes self-management benefit. The President proposed a plan to reform and modernize Medicare's benefits, including an optional prescription drug benefit that is affordable and available to all beneficiaries. The President has also proposed a reserve fund to help Medicare beneficiaries with extremely high prescription drug costs.

Extending the Life of the Medicare Trust Fund. When President Clinton and Vice President Gore took office, Medicare was expected to run out of money in 1999. Now, the life of the Trust Fund has been extended until 2025. Medicare is now in the soundest shape it has been since 1975.

Enacted Single Largest Investment in Health Care for Children since 1965. The five year, $24 billion State Children's Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP) will provide health care coverage for up to five million children. Two million children have already been enrolled, and in October 1999 President Clinton announced new outreach initiatives to enroll millions more uninsured, eligible children. Last year, the President launched a nationwide "Insure Kids Now" campaign that will bring together major TV and radio networks, healthcare organizations, religious groups and other community-based organizations to help enroll more children in the Children's Health Insurance Program, with the goal of enrolling 5 million of the estimated 10 million children eligible for health insurance under S-CHIP within 5 years. As of June 2000, approximately 2.5 million children were enrolled in S-CHIP. This year, the budget includes sev! eral of Vice President Gore's proposals to accelerate enrollment of children in S-CHIP. The President is also proposing a new FamilyCare program, which would give States the option to cover parents in the same plan as their children.

Passed Meaningful Health Insurance Reform. The President signed into law the Kennedy-Kassebaum Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, which helps individuals keep health insurance when they change jobs, guarantees renewability of coverage, and ensures access to health insurance for small businesses. As many as 25 million people will benefit from this law. The bill also eliminated the discriminatory tax treatment the of the approximately 10 million Americans who are self-employed; strengthened efforts to combat health care fraud, waste and abuse by creating a stable source of funding; and provided consumer protections and tax incentives for private long-term care insurance.

More Americans Have Health Insurance. From 1998 to 1999, the number of Americans with health insurance rose by 1.7 million -- two-thirds of them children. This is the first decline in the number of uninsured in 12 years. Factors contributing to the decline in the uninsured include the establishment of the historic S-CHIP program; the unprecedented outreach and enrollment efforts by the Administration and key states; and the improving economy in which increasing numbers of employers are offering health insurance. Despite historic gains, millions of Americans remain without insurance. The President and Vice President remain committed to provide health insurance coverage for all Americans.

Enacted Historic Comprehensive FDA Reform that Expedited the Review and Approval of New Drug Products. The President signed into law the 1997 FDA Modernization Act that includes important measures to modernize and streamline the regulation of biological products; increase patient access to experimental drugs and medical devices; and accelerate review of important new medications. This reform builds on the administrative initiatives implemented under the Vice President's reinventing government effort which have led U.S. drug approvals to be as fast or faster than any other industrialized nation. Average drug approval times have dropped since the beginning of the Administration from almost three years to just over one year.

Signed Mental Health Parity Provisions into Law. To help eliminate discrimination against individuals with mental illnesses, the President signed into law mental health parity provisions that prohibit health plans from establishing separate lifetime and annual limits for mental health coverage. In 1999, the White House held the first-ever Conference on Mental Health and released the Surgeon General's first Report on Mental Health. This year, the President's budget includes an investment of $100 million for mental health services, a 90 percent increase since 1993 levels.

Signed Legislation to End Drive-Through Deliveries. President Clinton signed into law common sense legislation that requires health plans to allow new mothers to remain in the hospital for at least 48 hours following most normal deliveries and 96 hours after a Cesarean section.

Extended Strong, Enforceable Patient Protections for Millions of Americans. Leading by example, the President directed all federal agencies to ensure that their employees and beneficiaries have the benefits and rights guaranteed under the proposed Patients' Bill of Rights. 85 million Americans covered by federal health plans, and Medicare and Medicaid, have the security of knowing they will have fair access to health care thanks to the President's work. The President and Vice President have called for passage of the bipartisan Patients Bill of Rights Act, to ensure that all Americans have essential protections, such as guaranteed access to needed health care specialists; access to emergency room services when and where the need arises; continuity of care protections to assure patient care if a patient's health care provider is dropped; access to a timely internal and independent external appeals process with a medical necessity standard; assurance that doctors and! patients can openly discuss treatment options; and an enforcement mechanism that ensures recourse for patients who have been harmed as a result of health plan actions.

Fighting Medicare Fraud and Waste. Since 1993, the Clinton-Gore Administration has assigned more federal prosecutors and FBI agents to fight health care fraud than ever before. As a result, convictions have gone up a full 410 percent, saving more than $50 billion in health care claims. The Balanced Budget Act gave an array of new weapons in our fight to keep scam artists and fly-by-night health care out of Medicare and Medicaid.

Released Strong New Protections for the Privacy of Electronic Medical Records. The Clinton-Gore Administration released a new regulation to protect the privacy of electronic medical records held by health plans, health care clearinghouses, and health care providers. This rule would limit the use and release of private health information without consent; restrict the disclosure of protected health information to the minimum amount of information necessary; establish new requirements for disclosure of information to researchers and others seeking access to health records; and establish new administrative and criminal sanctions for the improper use or disclosure of private information.

Implementing Comprehensive Nursing Home Quality Initiative. The Clinton-Gore Administration has issued the toughest nursing home regulations in the history of the Medicare and Medicaid programs, including increased monitoring of nursing homes to ensure that they are in compliance; requiring states to crack down on nursing homes that repeatedly violate health and safety requirements; and changing the inspection process to increase the focus on preventing bedsores, malnutrition and resident abuse. They also won a $43.5 million increase in FY 2000 to fund more rigorous inspections of nursing facilities and improved federal oversight and enforcement of nursing home quality.

Ensuring Safe Food for America's Families. President Clinton created the President's Council on Food Safety to develop a comprehensive food safety strategic plan for federal agencies. The Clinton-Gore Administration has implemented a new science-based inspection system -- Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points -- and reduced the prevalence of salmonella in raw meat and poultry by as much as 50 percent. The President signed the Food Quality Protection Act, which included special safeguards for kids and strengthened laws governing pesticides and food safety. The Administration also issued new rules to prevent foodborne illness caused by pathogens such as E. coli.

Raised Child Immunization Rates to All Time High. Childhood immunization coverage rates in 1998 were the highest ever recorded. 90 percent of toddlers in 1996, 1997 and 1998 received the most critical doses of each of the routinely recommended vaccines, surpassing the President's 1993 goal. Because childhood vaccination levels in the United States are at an all-time high, disease and death from diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, measles, mumps, rubella and Hib are at or near record lows. There was only one reported case of diphtheria, 100 reported cases of measles, and no reported cases of wild poliovirus in 1998.

Promoting Reproductive Health. The Clinton-Gore Administration has taken strong steps to protect a woman's right to choose and to promote safe reproductive health services for women. The President has provided contraceptive coverage to more than a million women covered by federal health plans; provided family planning services to low income women through the Medicaid program; stood up against attempts to prohibit the FDA from approving RU-486; and continues to fight restrictions on international family planning.

Environment: Growing the Economy And Improving the Environment

Preserving Our National Treasures. The Clinton-Gore Administration has protected tens of millions of acres, from the red rock canyons of Utah to the Florida Everglades. The Administration reached agreements to protect Yellowstone from mining and save the ancient redwoods of California's Headwaters Forest. In the FY 2000 budget, the President and Vice President won $651 million (a 42 percent increase) for Lands Legacy, a historic initiative to strengthen federal efforts to preserve national treasures and provides communities with new resources to protect local green spaces. This year, the President's budget includes a record $1.4 billion for Lands Legacy -- a 93 percent increase and the largest one-year investment ever requested for conserving America's lands.

Created Nine New National Monuments. The Clinton-Gore Administration has created nine new national monuments: Grand Staircase-Escalante, protecting spectacular red rock canyonlands in Utah; Grand Canyon-Parashant, protecting deep canyons, mountains and buttes on the north rim of the Grand Canyon; Agua Fria, protecting extensive prehistoric ruins in Arizona; the California Coastal monument, protecting thousands of islands, rocks and reefs along the California coast; Giant Sequoia National Monument in California's Sierra Nevada, protecting 34 groves of ancient sequoias, the largest trees on earth; Canyons of the Ancients National Monument protecting America's highest density of archeological sites in southwest Colorado; Cascade-Siskiyou National Monument protecting unmatched biological diversity in the Cascade Range in southern Oregon; Hanford Reach National Monument protecting critical habitat for salmon spawning along one of the last free-flowing stretches of! the Columbia River in south central Washington; Ironwood Forest National Monument protecting rich stands of ironwood trees - known to live more than 800 years -- in the Sonoran Desert of Arizona. The Administration also expanded Pinnacles National Monument in California to better protect the area's unusual rock formations, and designated Anderson Cottage, which served as Abraham Lincoln's summer home while he was president, a national monument.

Preserving Our National Forests. The President directed the National Forest Service to develop and propose regulations to provide long-term protection for 40 million acres of roadless areas within national forests and ensure that future generations will be able to enjoy the pristine wilderness. The proposed regulations would ban road building in these areas and could also prohibit logging or other activities that harm their unique ecological value.

Accelerating Toxic Cleanups and Brownfields Redevelopment. The Clinton-Gore Administration has completed clean up at more than 530 Superfund sites, more than three times as many as completed in the previous twelve years. Clean up of more than 91 percent of all sites is either completed or in progress. The Administration's brownfields redevelopment initiative has leveraged over $2.3 billion in private sector investment and generated 6,400 jobs.

Keeping Our Drinking Water Safe. The President proposed and signed legislation to strengthen the Safe Drinking Water Act to ensure that our families have healthy, clean tap water. The Clinton-Gore Administration has required America's 55,000 water utilities to provide regular reports to their customers on the quality of their drinking water. The Administration significantly tightened the arsenic standard, providing additional protection to at least 22.5 million Americans from cancer and other health problems. The Administration has adopted or proposed new standards to provide the first-ever protection against waterborne illness like Cryptosporidium, potentially preventing more than half a million illnesses each year. The Administration also proposed new rule to reduce dirty runoff and strengthen protections for 20,000 rivers, lakes and other waterways too polluted for swimming and fishing. Ninety-one percent of America's tap water from community drinking water sys! tems now meets all federal standards.

Clearing the Air of Unhealthy Pollution. The President and Vice President have adopted the toughest standards ever on soot and smog. They proposed significant reductions in tailpipe emissions from cars, light trucks and SUVs, and launched long-term effort to restore pristine skies over our national parks and wilderness areas. Since 1993, the number of Americans living in communities that meet federal air quality standards has grown by 43 million.

Reducing the Threat of Global Warming. The Clinton-Gore Administration negotiated an international treaty to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in an environmentally strong and economically sound way. The President and Vice President secured $1.1 billion in FY 2000 for research and development of energy efficiency and clean energy technologies, and set a goal of tripling U.S. use of bio-energy and bio-products by 2010. The President issued several Executive Orders. The first order directs agencies to dramatically improve energy efficiency in federal buildings, saving taxpayers over $750 million a year when fully implemented. The second order improves fuel efficiency by requiring the Federal government to reduce fuel use in its vehicle fleets by 20 percent in five years. The third order offers federal workers incentives to use public transportation, cutting fuel use and the pollution that contributes to climate change.

Protecting Oceans and Coasts. The Clinton-Gore Administration has extended the moratorium on new oil leasing off most of the U.S. coast through 2012, and permanently barred new leasing in national marine sanctuaries. They directed the development of key recommendations for strengthening federal oceans policy for the 21st century and appointed a high-level task force to oversee the implementation of those recommendations and launched a new era of ocean exploration where federal researchers will collaborate with marine research institutions and universities for ocean exploration. The President and Vice President secured a funding increase of over 100 percent to better support national marine sanctuaries, and have led the world in calling for a global ban on ocean dumping of low-level radioactive waste.

Science and Technology: A Strong Research and Development Agenda

Unprecedented Investment in Biomedical Research. Two years ago, the President called for an increase of almost 50 percent over 5 years in the National Institutes of Health (NIH) budget as part of his Research for America Fund. Since that time, the NIH budget has increased by over $4.3 billion and with the funding proposed by the President this year, the Administration will be one year ahead of schedule in reaching the 50 percent goal. As a result, NIH now supports the highest levels of research ever on nearly all types of disease and health conditions, making new breakthroughs possible in vaccine development and use, the treatment of chronic disease, and prevention and treatment of diseases such as diabetes, osteoporosis, heart disease, cancer, and neurological diseases like Alzheimers and Parkinsons. The Clinton-Gore Administration's FY 2001 budget includes a $1 billion increase for NIH.

Supporting University Research, Training the Next Generation of Scientists and Engineers. The FY 2000 budget contained a 6.6 percent increase in the National Science Foundation research budget to support science and engineering research across all fields and disciplines. This includes $126 million for the Administration's "Information Technology for the 21st Century" initiative.

Ensuring U.S. Leadership in Space Science and Exploration. The Clinton-Gore Administration won increased investment of $13.65 billion for NASA in FY 2000. This investment offers the potential of new scientific breakthroughs through an aggressive robotic series of exploration missions into the solar system, as well as enhancing our ability to monitor important changes in the earth's climate systems, and strengthening aviation safety for the traveling public.

Strengthening the Economy and National Security with Information Technology. The Administration continued our investment to help ensure that America leads the world in information technologies that predict tornadoes, design life-saving drugs, and make air travel safer and more efficient, and maintain our nuclear weapons stockpile without nuclear testing.

Changing the Way Government Does Business: Doing More for Less

Results from the Reinventing Government Initiative. Overall, the Vice President's National Performance Review recommended and Congress adopted savings of about $136 billion since 1993.

Smallest Federal Civilian Workforce in 40 Years. Since President Clinton and Vice President Gore took office, the Federal workforce has been cut by 377,000 - nearly a fifth - and is now lower than any time since 1960.

Lowest Federal Spending as a Share of the Economy Since 1966. The spending restraint under President Clinton has brought government spending down from 22.2 percent of GDP in 1992 to a projected 18.5 percent of GDP in 2000 - the lowest since 1966. At the same time, President Clinton has increased investments in education, technology and other areas that are vital to growth.

Slowest Per Capita Growth of Government Spending Since the 1950's. During the Clinton-Gore Administration, federal spending -- on a per capita basis -- grew at the slowest rate since the Eisenhower Administration, not including inflation.

Increasing Participation in Our Democracy with the Motor Voter Law. President Clinton signed the National Voter Registration Act during his first year in office -- making voting easier for millions more Americans, and leading to the registration of more than 28 million new voters.

Foreign Policy: World's Strongest Force for Peace, Freedom and Prosperity

Promoting Peace and Strengthening Democracy

Advancing peace in the Middle East by hosting the Camp David Summit between Israelis and Palestinians, which constituted the first high-level discussions of all permanent status issues; brokering peace agreements between Israel and its other neighbors, including the Palestinians and Jordan; negotiating the Wye River Accords; supporting the launch of final settlement negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians; and revitalizing peace talks between the Syrians and Israelis.
Stabilizing Southeast Europe by ending a decade of repression and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo through leading NATO alliance to victory in air campaign and ushering in international peacekeepers, and by launching the Stability Pact to strengthen democracy, economic development and security throughout the region and accelerating its integration with the rest of Europe
Helped broker the Good Friday Peace Accord in Northern Ireland, ending decades of bloodshed and empowering the people of Northern Ireland to determine their future.
Led diplomatic efforts to end the civil war and foster multi-ethnic democracy in Bosnia.
Restored democratic government in Haiti, ending military dictatorship and stopping refugee flows.
Supporting transitions to democracy in South Africa, Nigeria, Indonesia, Central Europe and the Baltics and supporting the mediation of peace efforts in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the Central African Republic, Sierra Leone, Burundi, and Ethiopia-Eritrea.
Helped end violence and protected democracy in East Timor by leading diplomatic efforts and supporting international peacekeeping mission.
Helped settle the Peru-Ecuador border dispute and end civil war in Guatemala.
Pressing for human rights and religious freedom worldwide, including in China, Burma and Sudan.
Re-started talks toward a comprehensive settlement on Cyprus.
Combating Threats

Protecting Americans from weapons of mass destruction by working to reduce Russian nuclear arsenals through implementation of strategic arms control agreements (START) and cooperative threat reduction programs, permanently eliminating nuclear weapons from Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan, easing nuclear tensions between India and Pakistan, signing the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, and achieving the indefinite extension of the Non-Proliferation Treaty and ratification of the Chemical Weapons Convention.
Enhancing military stability in Europe by successfully concluding the adapted Conventional Armed Forces in Europe Treaty.
Combating terrorism by developing a national counter-terrorism strategy, appointing a national coordinator and striking terrorist targets in Afghanistan and Sudan.
Waging war on drugs by intensifying interdiction efforts, strengthening cooperation with allies, cracking down on drug lords and providing $1.3 billion in assistance for Colombia.
Reducing North Korean threat through deterrence, including the forward deployment of 37,000 U.S. troops; diplomacy, including bilateral talks leading to a moratorium on long-range missile testing; and non-proliferation, including the eventual dismantling of North Korea's dangerous nuclear facilities.
Containing Iraq while working toward regime change through deterrence, economic sanctions, humanitarian assistance for the Iraqi people from the oil-for-food program, and support for popular opposition to Saddam Hussein's regime.
Addressing new threats by protecting America's critical infrastructure from cyber-terrorism and biological and chemical weapons.
Discussed development of a limited national missile defense to protect against attacks from states that threaten international peace and security while preserving strategic stability with Russia.
Strengthening military readiness and modernizing our armed forces.
Combating trafficking in persons, especially women and children, through the development of an integrated strategy that focuses on prevention, prosecution of traffickers, and protection of and assistance to victims.
Fighting proliferation by improving controls over Russian nuclear weapon materials, and by funding legitimate employment opportunities for former Russian nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons researchers and institutes as an alternative to selling their skills abroad.
Negotiating a protocol to the Convention on Conventional Weapons, banning antipersonnel landmines that do not self-destruct and self-deactivate, signed by all the major mine-producing nations.
Waging war on international crime by strengthening U.S. law enforcement programs and bilateral, regional and global cooperation related to drug trafficking, money laundering and other international organized crime and by providing $1.3 billion in additional funding for critical counter-drug and related initiatives throughout the Andean Region.
Mobilizing leadership and resources - including the development of new vaccines - to fight AIDS, malaria and tuberculosis, which threaten development, economic growth, stability and security.
Strengthening Alliances and Building Partnerships

Fulfilling vision of an undivided, democratic and peaceful Europe by enlarging NATO, integrating Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic and Southeast Europe, and strengthening NATO's partnerships with Russia, Ukraine and the other New Independent States.
Building a more constructive relationship with China through engagement and frank dialogue, leading to cooperation on non-proliferation and regional security, environmental protection.
Deepening security alliance with Japan through adoption of Defense Guidelines and Joint Security Declaration.
Strengthening cooperation with South Korea through jointly offered Four Party Peace Talks with North Korea and the establishment of Trilateral Consultation and Oversight Group to coordinate North Korea policy.
Supporting democracy, human rights, and market economies in Russia, Ukraine, and the countries of the former Soviet Union and promoting their international integration
Secured landmark agreements to develop oil and gas pipelines from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, strengthening ties in the region and ensuring Americans have continued access to vital natural resources.
Expanding trade and strengthening democracy in Asia and Latin America through the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, the Summit of the Americas, and the Organization of American States.
Strengthening ties with Africa by launching the new Partnership for Economic Growth and Opportunity, achieving passage of the African Growth and Opportunity Act, and supporting the Africa Crisis Response Initiative and other regional peacekeeping efforts.
Preserved U.S. leadership role at the United Nations by reaching agreement with Congress that would enable us to pay $1 billion in back dues. Deepened security ties with the Philippines through adoption of the Visiting Forces Agreement.
Expanding Prosperity

Opening markets for U.S. exports abroad and creating American jobs through NAFTA, GATT and nearly 300 other free and fair trade agreements.
Integrating China into the world economy through landmark agreement for China's entry into the World Trade Organization that opens markets to U.S. exports, slashes Chinese tariffs, and protects American workers from dumping.
Established World Trade Organization to reduce tariffs, settle trade disputes, and enforce rules.
Reduced the possibility that a future Asian financial crisis would undermine America's prosperity by promoting structural reform -- including sound monetary policies, urging banking reforms and fighting corruption abroad.
Stimulating worldwide growth through support for the IMF and G-8 global economic strategy.
Assisted Mexico's economic recovery with $20 billion in emergency support loans.
Forgave $500 million in African debt, announced initiative to link debt relief to health and education investments, and forged agreement among G-8 industrialized countries to provide additional debt relief.
Helped to overcome the Asian financial crisis through support for multilateral and bilateral efforts and through keeping America's markets open at a critical juncture.
Helped facilitate disaster relief and reconstruction in Central American countries affected by Hurricane Mitch, committing $940 million to economic reactivation, education, public health, and future mitigation.
Helped Brazil avert financial crisis by backing $41.5 billion international support package.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Clinton's legacy is mixed
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 04:43 PM by Hippo_Tron
You cited many of his good accomplishments and believe me there are many.

Some of the problems include: Thousands of people locked up for simple possession because he escalated the drug war instead of ending it. Welfare Reform moved plenty of people to work but many of them have not moved out of poverty. NAFTA failed to enforce human rights in Mexico and China was admitted to the WTO despite their dismal human rights record. The trade embargo with Cuba still continues despite the fact that they are not a threat.

I could go on, but here's the point. 90% of what Reagan/Bush did needed to be overturned and still needs to be overturned. Clinton didn't even make a valid attempt to do this, but rather continued many of the major policies from the Reagan/Bush years.

If we are going to get any progress in this country, we need to return to the days where Ronald Reagan was considered a right wing lunatic even in his own party and moderates like Ike, Nixon, and Ford were considered the only acceptable Republicans and "big government" wasn't considered a bad thing. Clinton probably couldn't have done this himself but he could've pointed us in the right direction. Instead we got "the era of big government is over".

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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. my point is - Clinton made a good start on things
considering what came before him. It's over the top to make the claims the poster I responded to did.

Clinton did ok, considering what he was up against.

I do think that Clinton tried to overturn what Reagan/Bush did. His first budget, which rolled back the tax breaks for the wealthiest, got passed without a single Repuplican vote - and it laid the groundwork for Clinton's economic successes - and his reward for this was ... disaster at the polls, followed by six years of a Republican Congress. After that, it was impossible to push any kind of progressive agenda.


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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. Herman
Do you think any other Democratic candidate apart of Hillary has a chance to win the 08 elections?
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. Indeed
And I believe we will
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
36. I agree -- it was smart. nt
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
38. she has a problem if she cannot adequately address the anger out there
a HUGE problem
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
40. Hillary's not my first choice, but I agree with you.
People here keep saying they want to hear Hillary Clinton apologize for her IWR vote. But, if she did, she would be criticized by the same people for pandering to them.

I remember back in 2004 when Kerry and Edwards defended their votes and explained why they voted the way they did. Some people groaned about it, but they accepted their explanations.

I think it's kind of weak to say after everything goes to hell in Iraq that they regret voting for the IWR when they were so confident about their vote in 2004.

NOW, it's politically expedient to apologize and saying I woulda, coulda, shoulda.

I think it's better to accept responsibility for their vote and try to fix the mess they got the country into.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
41. I couldn't agree more & this is what sets her apart from the apologists
As wrong as she was in voting for the IWR, she's not a hypocrite who tries to pander to the voters like Kerry & Edwards, who both only apologized long after it was safe politically for them to do so and not until all the polls showed how unpopular the Iraq War had become across the nation. That kind of shit only comes back to kick you in the ass.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
45. I think it is great. Now we know who she is going after...."their" base.
I intend to take her up on her advice. It was an insulting thing to say to your own party.

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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
48. Yes, there are other Dems running for the nomination.
I was sort of on the fence (leaning against, admittedly), but her comments were horrible. How can she say that?

If she doesn't want to earn our vote in the primary, fine, we'll vote for someone else. No skin off my nose. :shrug:
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
49. I agree that there is an irrational amount of hatred for the Clintons on this, a "Democratic" board
I don't know if that means there are a lot of clever Republican "shills" active here or what.

For example, her position on gay marriage "evolved" recently, she made a statement, and she was criticized for it as mere "pandering". I thought, "Huh?, WTF is that supposed to mean? Her position has changed. She'd be making policies about the issue which are more favorable than they would have been, and for that she's criticized??"
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
50. I don't have a problem with it either
:shrug:

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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
51. Hillary is a triangular and that makes her a liar, not an honest politician
And she is for selling out the Middle Class by supporting the outsourcing of high paying jobs to India, china, etc..
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. If you are going to parrot the caustic rhetoric
... at least get the buzzphrases correct.

It's "triangulator," not triangular.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. How childish...
and cowardly to pretend she's wiser than those who have nothing to apologize for. "Let the conversation begin" indeed.
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
58. She doesn't want my vote?
Consider it done.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
71. No problem at all with it....people WILL look elsewhere! nt
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
72. I support Hillary
and many others. The idea that David Brooks may be saner than some DUers is really scary. Keep those misogynist Hillary bashing products selling! They're paying for Republican campaigns. Is there a PC word for morons. I feel like it might cause a flame war to tell the truth. If you don't like a candidate, shut up and say something nice about yours. Is that so hard?
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cmkramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-21-07 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
74. She said the same thing when Bill was running too n/t
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