Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The senators who voted for the IWR were not misled.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:17 PM
Original message
The senators who voted for the IWR were not misled.
Edited on Sun Feb-18-07 11:22 PM by Clarkie1
At least, not successfully misled. Senators may be politically calculating, but they are not stupid.

Just look at the statements of Byrd, Feingold, Kennedy, and many others during the time before the vote and after. I won't repost the statements here, they have been posted already many times on DU over the years. Anyone who is interested in truth can find them.

The truth is every senator who voted for the war (and yes, it was a vote for the war, they all knew the administration's intent) did so either because they felt war was the correct course of action, or they were worried 2 years after 9/11 of looking weak on national security and the terrorist threat (which of course Iraq had nothing to do with...they knew that too).

That's the truth, and that is all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Some will disagree with you. But I for one do not.
You've summed it up eloquently. Every counter-argument is mere sophistry.

:kick:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malikstein Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
88. "Some" can find their ass with a search warrant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. None of them knew that the WMD evidence was bullshit
Remember the Bush administration made claims that turned out to be completely untrue about Saddam's weapons capabilities. So maybe there are a few that decided that giving Bush unilateral authority to go to war was necessary given the magnitude of the threat that they claimed Saddam posed to the country.

Of course, I'd say that such a person has a serious lack of judgment in assessing threats to the United States and therefore isn't qualified to be commander-in-chief.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The world knew it was BS
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Maybe, but read the statements by those who voted against the IWR
Most of them acknowledged that they agreed with the administration that Saddam was a threat. They just didn't agree to the point of trusting Bush with unilateral authority to go to war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Those were their statements, not what they knew to be true!
Edited on Sun Feb-18-07 11:27 PM by Clarkie1
They are politicians, and they were worried about the election!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. So those who voted against the IWR weren't exaclty being honest either
Edited on Sun Feb-18-07 11:46 PM by Hippo_Tron
I haven't seen the intelligence that the Senators were supposedly shown so I won't comment on whether they should have believed it or not.

Had I been in the US Senate my justification for voting against the IWR would've been that I don't trust an administration that has been using extreme warmongering rhetoric for several months with unilateral authority to disarm Saddam. If they want to disarm Saddam they need to get UN approval and build a real coalition.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
139. You can't have it both ways
The statements of the people who voted against the war can't both be dispositive and ignored.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. Chew on this:
No one opposed the IWR in stronger terms than Leahy. And the outrage he felt towards his colleagues who would vote for the piece of shit, is palpable.

"This resolution, like others before it, does not declare anything. It tells the President "you decide." This resolution, when you get through the pages of whereas clauses, is nothing more than a blank check. The President can decide when to use military force, how to use it, and for how long.


We have heard a lot of bellicose rhetoric, but what are the facts? I am not asking for 100 percent proof. But the Administration is asking Congress to make a decision to go to war based on conflicting statements, angry assertions, and assumptions based on speculation

Proponents of this resolution argue that it does put diplomacy first. They point to section 3, which requires the President to determine that further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone will not adequately protect the national security, before he resorts to military force. They say that this ensures that we will act only in a deliberative way, in concert with our allies.

But they fail to point out that the resolution permits the President to use unilateral military force if he determines that reliance on diplomacy alone "is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq . . .."

And what of the critical issue of rebuilding a post-Saddam Iraq, about which the Administration has said virtually nothing? As I have said over and over again, it is one thing to topple a regime, but it is equally important, and sometimes far more difficult, to rebuild a country to prevent it from becoming engulfed by factional fighting
Unfortunately, we have learned that the phrase "not likely" can be used to justify just about anything. So let us not pretend we are doing something we are not. This resolution permits the President to take whatever military action he wants, whenever he wants, for as long as he wants. It is a blank check."


Patrick Leahy.

October, 2002
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. Leahy was exactly right
"This resolution does not declare anything. It tells the President "you decide.".

Why do people insist on saying that yes-voters had "conditions" or were demanding inspections.?
There were NO conditions. It was a blank check. Period.
Why was Leahy able to clearly understand this short text, while the yes-voters could not?

The law is short and simple. No conditions, Bush decides. The end.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
104. Well, I've read the statements of other Senators that say otherwise
Paul Wellstone and Russ Feingold acknowledged that possibility that Saddam may have been somewhat of a threat, although Feingold stated that Bush's case was questionable due to his flip-flopping back and forth between WMDs and human rights.

I'm not saying that they believed everything that Bush was saying (even Bill Clinton said that Bush was putting too much emphasis on Iraq). I'm saying that many of them may have believed that Saddam was at least was somewhat of a threat.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. I remember seeing a pre 9-11 tape of Condi Rice saying Saddam was "contained" and not a threat.
I don't think candidates who signed the Iraq War Resolution deserves to be president.

They had to know about PNAC's plan to go into Iraq prior to the 2000 elections.

We have to clean house and support only representatives who were smart enough not to sign the IWR. We should make sure only these politicains are in the running in '08.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #107
135. Look I don't disagree with you about the IWR
Or that we should have been a bit suspicious that the administration wasn't being entirely truthful. Or the fact that Condi and the other neocons all of a sudden changed their mind about Iraq after 9/11.

My only point is that it wasn't unreasonable to believe that there were at least some weapons in Iraq that may pose a threat (although not an imminent one).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #104
136. And who was right?
Who was right on all the points he made? Senator Leahy. As he said it was a fucking blank check and sure to be misused. As he said reconstruction would likely be a disaster. As he said, it was a Gulf of Tonkin moment. Maybe more of his colleagues should have been listening to him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. I don't disagree, none of that has to do with WMD
First of all, you're arguing with the wrong person here because I'm a harsh critic of those who voted for the IWR. The evidence presented did not merit giving a bunch of warmongers unilateral authority to go to war even if you believed all of it.

But my point is that at no point in Senator Leahy's statement did he say "The administration's claims about WMD are COMPLETE LIES."
Did he and others allude to the possibility that they were hyping up the threat and claiming it was imminent when really it was not? Absolutely. Were they saying that they were 100% sure that Saddam had no weapons and therefore the entire process of getting the inspectors back in was a waste of time? Nope.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
73. Some of us were jumping up and down shouting at the top of our lungs, "Don't believe
the lying bastards". But they didn't listen to us. they made the most disastrous mistake of modern times. I hope we can recover. they can not be forgiven.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #73
92. They cannot be forgiven - Really and truly I agree n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Yes they did.
KENNEDY: And that really was -- influenced me to the greatest degree. And the second point that influenced me was in the time that we were having the briefings and these were classified. They've been declassified now. Secretary Rumsfeld came up and said "There are weapons of mass destruction north, south, east and west of Baghdad." This was his testimony in the Armed Services Committee.

And at that time Senator Levin, who is an enormously gifted, talented member of the Armed Services Committee said, "Well, we're now providing this information to the inspectors aren't we?" This is just before the war. "Oh, yes, we're providing that." "But are they finding anything?" "No."

Because the answer was because they're moving things, because when we tell the team they're all infiltrated by Saddam's people and they're leaking that so that's the reason we're not finding anything.

They started giving all the places where we said there were places and they still couldn't find any. And at the end of now, history will show we never gave any information to the inspection team at all.

But I kept saying, "Well, if they're not finding any of the weapons of mass destruction, where is the imminent threat to the United States security?" It didn't make sense.

There were probably eight Senators on the Friday before the Thursday we voted on it. It got up to 23. I think if that had gone on another -- we had waited another ten days, I think you may have had a different story.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/20/lkl.01.h...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Thanks for this. Seems to me this settles the issue.
>>>But I kept saying, "Well, if they're not finding any of the weapons of mass destruction, where is the imminent threat to the United States security?" It didn't make sense.
>>>>>

Senators who voted for IWR acted irresponsibly by failing to properly evaluate the evidence available .

Some people have better judgment than others. Some people have good judgment but are swayed by political considerations.

So be it. But let's not devalue the enormous public service rendered by the 23 'nays' by repeating, "But everyone agreed that Saddam had WMD's."

This is deceptive and dishonorable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
33. The original UN inspection team documented the destruction of 96% of all
WMD. This was after Gulf War I

We knew there wasn't any capabilities to make more. And the remaining 4% that wasn't documented were useless due to shelf life even if they still existed.

We knew this. Hell, I knew it.

So how a Senator can claim ignorance is beyond belief.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
103. Do you have a source for that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #103
134. Scott Ritter
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 03:22 AM by John Q. Citizen
He was the Chief UN Weapons Inspector in Iraq from 1991 until his resignation in 1998.
And he was a US Marine.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=scott_ritter
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. Kucinich says that he knew he was being hustled.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
39. I am just an average citizen...
...a senior citizen, in fact...and if I knew going to war against Iraq was complete, total and utter bullshit, there is no excuse for those who "voted to give Bush the authority" to not have known the same. Iraq was no threat...PERIOD. If the US govt believed this, then our govt had a lot of explaining to do as to why Saddam had been our friend in the past. Besides, even IF Iraq had WMD, what the hell were they going to use to bring them to our shores? Carrier pigeons?

I have been thinking about this issue ~~ supporting any candidate who voted for and/or was in favor of the IWR. In good conscience, I cannot do this. It took courage, IMO, to stand up and vote NO on the IWR because at the time, IMO, the majority if the populous appeared to be in favor of it. And if not in an elected office at the time, IMO, it still took courage to back then voice an opinion against the IWR.

I want someone in the WH who has this kind of courage...and who it NOT looking at the next election instead. I want someone who votes by conscience and not by public opinion polls. The candidates who "suddenly" now find that they really would not have voted for and/or supported the IWR ~~ I wonder if that is true ... or if that is merely a politically expedient position to take at the moment.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
106. I agree, the WMD claims were BS
The inspectors on the ground weren't finding WMDs, Sen Bob Graham (frmr Chair of Sen Intel Cmttee0 was saying he hadn't seen any evidence of WMDs, Saddam's neighbors didn't seem too concerned about him, and even if he did have WMDs he couldn't deliver them. Plus, the 9-11 guys were Saudis and Al Qaeda - anyone who knew ANYTHING about the ME knew AQ and Saddam didn't work together. Any Congress-critter who voted for the IWR was either pandering to the voters whom were being whipped into a war frenzy by the MSM, selling their vote to the corporate RW war industry, or just plain too lazy to check for themselves. In any case, no one who supported the IWR could possibly be representing ME, so I will not vote for any of them. Hillary can shove her triangulation where the sun doesn't shine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
72. Disagree. There was no credible evidence presented. It would have been easy
for any of them to find out the truth. Your saying that they believed Bush over Wilson. No way. The fact that the Bush Admin "made claims" without evidence should have made them suspicious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
102. I thought Wilson made his statements after the IWR was voted on
Admittedly it wasn't long after they voted that some of the claims seemed dubious. But the administration made sure that the IWR was rushed so that they claims would come out afterwards as I recalled.

I'm not saying that the Senators should be let off the hook. I am saying that a reasonable thinking person could've believed that the administration wasn't completely full of shit, even if they knew that they may have been exaggerating the threat somewhat. That still doesn't justify unilateral authority, IMO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malikstein Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
89. The evidence of bullshit was readily available
All you have to do is look at the CIA World Fact Book.

Compare the statistics:

Population: 23 million
GNP: $50 billion.
Military spending: $2 billion

These guys weren't even a threat to themselves, much less the USA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. I do not believe that is true at all
On more than one occassion, I have heard various Senators say that if the American people had seen the intelligence they were given by the Administration, it basically would have scared us out of our wits. Now, of course, they know the intelligence was wrong. But I believe a lot of them believed the intelligence that they were given, which claimed that Sadaam had the capabilities to do x, y and z.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Then explain this, journalist.
KENNEDY: No. The best vote I cast in the United States Senate was...

KING: The best?

KENNEDY: The best vote, best vote I cast in the United States Senate (INAUDIBLE).

KING: In your life?

KENNEDY: Absolutely.

KING: Was not to go to Iraq?

KENNEDY: Yes, not to go to Iraq.

KING: Why did you vote against?

KENNEDY: Well, I'm on the Armed Services Committee and I was inclined to support the administration when we started the hearings in the Armed Services Committee. And, it was enormously interesting to me that those that had been -- that were in the armed forces that had served in combat were universally opposed to going.

I mean we had Wes Clark testify in opposition to going to war at that time. You had General Zinni. You had General (INAUDIBLE). You had General Nash. You had the series of different military officials, a number of whom had been involved in the Gulf I War, others involved in Kosovo and had distinguished records in Vietnam, battle-hardened combat military figures. And, virtually all of them said no, this is not going to work and they virtually identified...

KING: And that's what moved you?

KENNEDY: And that really was -- influenced me to the greatest degree. And the second point that influenced me was in the time that we were having the briefings and these were classified. They've been declassified now. Secretary Rumsfeld came up and said "There are weapons of mass destruction north, south, east and west of Baghdad." This was his testimony in the Armed Services Committee.

And at that time Senator Levin, who is an enormously gifted, talented member of the Armed Services Committee said, "Well, we're now providing this information to the inspectors aren't we?" This is just before the war. "Oh, yes, we're providing that." "But are they finding anything?" "No."

Because the answer was because they're moving things, because when we tell the team they're all infiltrated by Saddam's people and they're leaking that so that's the reason we're not finding anything.

They started giving all the places where we said there were places and they still couldn't find any. And at the end of now, history will show we never gave any information to the inspection team at all.

But I kept saying, "Well, if they're not finding any of the weapons of mass destruction, where is the imminent threat to the United States security?" It didn't make sense.

There were probably eight Senators on the Friday before the Thursday we voted on it. It got up to 23. I think if that had gone on another -- we had waited another ten days, I think you may have had a different story.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/20/lkl.01.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Thrasybulus Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. The Ranking Dems on the Intelligence Committees
Pelosi in the House and Graham in the Senate, received the
most sensitive information not available to even their fellow
Congress critters and both voted against the Iraq War
Resolution.

Pelosi is quoted here:
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=122  

 [Pelosi, the number two Democrat in the House, was equally
outspoken in her opposition to the resolution. Rejecting the
argument that the president needed maximum flexibility to act
quickly against an immediate threat, Pelosi noted that Central
Intelligence Agency Director  George Tenet had told Congress
that the likelihood of Iraq's Saddam Hussein launching an
attack on the U.S. using weapons of mass destruction was low.
"This is about the Constitution. It is about this
Congress asserting its right to declare war when we are fully
aware of what the challenges are to us. It is about respecting
the United Nations and a multilateral approach, which is safer
for our troops."]
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
63. Baloney.
Go back and read the exerpt I posted upthread from Senator Leahy. What's more I've heard Senator Leahy say on several occasions that the intelligence provided them was conflicting and less than convincing. Do you know more than a Senator who's been serving for 32 years? Amazing if you do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
69. i've heard them say it, same as i heard * say it, and i was sure it was not true...
just as * knew it wasn't true, and trusting that congress critters may be calculating sobs and liars but that they are not stupid, they knew it too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
79. I have heard this argument over and over. No offense but it is BS
What exactly was the mysterious that scared them into the worst decision of modern history? What was the evidence? Is is still secret? BS. They had access to a lot of intelligence including from other countries. Nothing of any substance has ever been been presented. Didn't they get suspicious when Cheney outed Plame because of Wilson's evidence? There are those that need to believe that there was bad intelligence to justify the horrible decisions of our democratic representatives. What is the evidence?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
99. Shhhh....
You're not allowed to actually accept what a Democratic Senator said as the truth or anything. Not here at Democratic Underground.

p.s. - hang in there, there's plenty here who agree with you, we're just mostly weary of these threads repeating the republican trap about the IWR. Never mind, it's too late, the media and half the "activists" in the Dem party seem to have already bought into the version Rove sold them. And by doing so weakened half the Democratic presidential candidates, and limited our ability to choose based on more real and current factors. Not that we should care about that, mind you....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Nice to meet someone on here who's in the reality-based community
I find it amazing that people here on DU who never saw the intelligence that US Senators did, think they know more about what those Senators saw.

But that's just me...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #99
105. Puhleeze!
In the past, before the internets, they MIGHT have
been able to blow this shit past us.

It unfolded before us in REAL TIME. We SAW IT.

MOST of our Democratic House Representatives REPRESENTED US.

THESE SENATORS:
* Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
* Barbara Boxer (D-California)
* Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
* Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)
* Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
* Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
* Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
* Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
* Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
* Bob Graham (D-Florida)
* Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
* Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
* Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
* Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
* Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
* Patty Murray (D-Washington)
* Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
* The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
* Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Made the right choice.

The politicians can NOT spin their way out of it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. The world knew.....that is true.....
my then 12 year old knew......and she marched with me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. My dad (posted in another thread)
Edited on Sun Feb-18-07 11:58 PM by Katzenkavalier
Who didn't even finish high school (GED), who knows very little about foreign policy and geopolitics and who can't even vote because he is still a legal resident told me in 2002: "Bush is an asshole. Saddam has nothing over there. If anything, he is keeping that country and the region pretty stable. That war will be a mistake. Bush needs to forget about oil and about what his daddy didn't finish."

Then, I was a "wannabe a Republican super patriot" 19 yr. old. I told my dad we needed to trust Bush, and that my "World Perspectives" professor said Saddam was indeed dangerous and the US needed to get rid of that thread. We argued, and I even told him he was in no position to make judgements about Bush's logic because he wasn't educated enough. My dad told me: "You are young and ignorant... give Bush a couple of years and you will see what I'm talking about..."

Dad was fuckin' right... big time...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Okay, I was totally with you Katzenkavalier,
until you got to the "bitches in Congress" part.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Sorry
I got emotional... let me edit that part. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. This subject makes everyone emotional.
I have teenage sons and I get very emotional about the sort of world we're creating for them.

I bet your Dad's very proud of you. Hang in there!

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. The truth was obvious to many of us!
And I believe many of those senators (and DEMS in particular) put political expediency above personal conviction.

23 Senators, 133 House Reps, and millions around the world in protest KNEW Shrub would take us into an immoral war of aggression in Iraq. I'll simply never understand how that vote could be justified - when so many of us saw the truth in plain sight.

As we slog up to and through the primaries, I will always weigh in with a DEM candidate that was unequivocally against the IWR from the get-go. IMHO, that vote back in Oct of 02 - was one of the worst in the history of America.

Obama, Clark, Kucinich, Feingold, Gore---all knew what so many of us shouted in protests, marches, town hall meetings, blogs, and in Op Ed pieces - that IT WAS WRONG!

Its that simple. Its that tragic.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. There's a 3rd, equally valid, alternative that you've left out.
Many of the Senators voted for the October 2002 IWR because they knew the odds were very high that the Republicans were going to take the Senate in the November election.

This meant that they had two choices:

1) They could help the Republicans to pass the October IWR, but insist on including certain conditions and language in exchange for their support.

or

2) They could vote en masse to defeat the October IWR. But they knew that wouldn't stop Bush, because in January, 2003, a new Republican majority in the Senate -- without votes from any Democrats -- could pass the a new Republican-only version of a war resolution, giving Bush virtually a blank check.

As Chuck Hagel stated recently, Bush's preferred war resolution would have given him the power to direct an attack ANYWHERE in the middle east -- even in countries like Greece. If the Democrats had defeated the October IWR, that's the kind of war resolution we would be operating under now.

Instead, lately we've had several leading Democratic members of the House and Senate warn Bush that the IWR specifically limits him to Iraq -- and saying that he MUST get authorization from the Senate before attacking anywhere else, including Iran. They can say this because that's how the October IWR was drafted. But if it had failed, the new Republican Senate would have given Bush a blank check to take his "war on terrorism" anywhere. We'd be even worse off than we are now. Most likely, we'd already be in Iran.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #14
38. Sadly
It didn't work out so well in my state.
Jean Carnahan lost a close election. Damn Green Candidate!
Wonder why she got into the mix at all?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
74. I do wonder. How can they say there's no difference
between the Dems and the Repubs?

Must have ideological blinders on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #74
98. Sort of
A narrow world view might be another way to put it.
I am not sure that that candidate said there was no difference. I wasn't a supporter.
I only remember that she was very critical of it and that that was her main reason for running.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malikstein Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
90. So, rather than organizing the population
against the war, they opted for a parliamentary manoeuver. Now, that's really ballsy. </snark>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. Can you remember what it was like in October 2002?
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 06:47 PM by pnwmom
Bush was still riding high on his popularity due to 9/11 -- the new Republican Congress was sweeping in on his militaristic coattails. Colin Powell was giving his ominous presentation at the U.N. and Condi was warning about mushroom clouds over American cities. Do you honestly think the Dems would have succeeded in "organizing the population" in time to prevent Bush from getting his war resolution in January?

It might have been more "ballsy" if the Democrats instead took a gamble, defeated the Oct IWR, and tried to redirect the overwhelming tide of public opinion in just a few short months . It also would have been pretty deluded, IMO. Unfortunately, ballsy and stupid often seem to go together.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
18. And you have proof of this?
Democrats gathered testimony:

STATEMENT OF
GENERAL (RETIRED) WESLEY K. CLARK
U.S. ARMY

BEFORE THE
HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE
UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SEPTEMBER 26, 2002

Mr. Chairman, Representative Skelton, Distinguished Members of this Committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. This is a Committee that has been strongly supportive of the men and women in uniform, and I want to thank you personally for the assistance and support that you gave me, and have given so many others.

In October 1994, Saddam Hussein moved several Republican Guards divisions back into the attack positions just north of the Kuwaiti border, the same attack positions that had been occupied just prior to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990. It was a foolish and to our minds unexpected and threatening move. We quickly deployed additional military forces to the region, preparing to enter a full-fledged battle against Iraq to defend Kuwait, and we also went to the United Nations. After a few tense days Saddam backed off, the divisions were removed, and we acted through the United Nations to further tighten the no-fly zone and regulate Iraqi troop movements.

But it was a signal warning about Saddam Hussein: he is not only malevolent and violent, but also unpredictable. He retains his chemical and biological warfare capabilities and is actively pursuing nuclear capabilities. Were he to acquire such capabilities, we and our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks. Saddam might use such weapons as a deterrent while launching attacks against Israel or his neighbors, he might threaten American forces in the region, he might strike directly against Israel, or Israel, weighing the possibilities of nuclear blackmail or aggression, might feel compelled to strike Iraq first.

Saddam has been pursuing nuclear weapons for over twenty years. According to all estimates made available he does not now have these weapons. The best public assessment is that if he were to acquire fissionable material he might field some type of weapon within two years. If he has to enrich the uranium ore itself, then a period of perhaps five years might be required. But what makes the situation relatively more dangerous today is that the UN weapons inspectors, who provided some assistance in impeding his development programs, have been absent from Iraq for over four years. And the sanctions regime, designed to restrict his access to weapons materials and the resources needed to procure them, has continuously eroded. At some point, it may become possible for Saddam to acquire the fissionable materials or uranium ore that he needs. And therefore, Iraq is not a problem that can be indefinitely postponed.

In addition, Saddam Hussein's current retention of chemical and biological weapons and their respective delivery systems violates the UN resolutions themselves, which carry the weight of international law.

Our President has emphasized the urgency of eliminating these weapons and weapons programs. I strongly support his efforts to encourage the United Nations to act on this problem. And in taking this to the United Nations, the President's clear determination to act if the United Nations can't provides strong leverage undergirding further diplomatic efforts.

But the problem of Iraq is only an element of the broader security challenges facing our country. We have an unfinished, world-wide war against Al Qaeda, a war that has to be won in conjunction with friends and allies, and that ultimately be won by persuasion as much as by force, when we turn off the Al Qaeda recruiting machine. Some three thousand deaths on September 11th testify to the real danger from Al Qaeda, and as all acknowledge, Al Qaeda has not yet been defeated. Thus far, substantial evidence has not been made available to link Saddam's regime to the Al Qaeda network. And while such linkages may emerge, winning the war against Al Qaeda may well require different actions than ending the weapons programs in Iraq.

The critical issue facing the Unites States now is how to force action against Saddam Hussein and his weapons programs without detracting from our focus on Al Qaeda or efforts to deal with other immediate, mid and long-term security problems. In this regard, I would offer the following considerations:

- The United States diplomacy in the United Nations will be further strengthened if the Congress can adopt a resolution expressing US determination to act if the United Nations will not. The use of force must remain a US option under active consideration. The resolution need not at this point authorize the use of force, but simply agree on the intent to authorize the use of force, if other measures fail. The more focused the resolution on Iraq and the problem of weapons of mass destruction, the greater its utility in the United Nations. The more nearly unanimous the resolution, the greater its impact in the diplomatic efforts underway.


- The President and his national security team must deploy imagination, leverage, and patience in crafting UN engagement. In the near term, time is on our side, and we should endeavor to use the UN if at all possible. This may require a period of time for inspections or even the development of a more intrusive inspection program, if necessary backed by force. This is foremost an effort to gain world-wide legitimacy for US concerns and possible later action, but it may also impede Saddam's weapons programs and further constrain his freedom of action. Yes, there is a risk that inspections would fail to provide the evidence of his weapons programs, but the difficulties of dealing with this outcome are more than offset by opportunity to gain allies and support in the campaign against Saddam.

If efforts to resolve the problem by using the United Nations fail, either initially or ultimately, the US should form the broadest possible coalition, including its NATO allies and the North Atlantic Council if possible, to bring force to bear.

Force should not be used until the personnel and organizations to be involved in post-conflict Iraq are identified and readied to assume their responsibilities. This includes requirements for humanitarian assistance, police and judicial capabilities, emergency medical and reconstruction assistance, and preparations for a transitional governing body and eventual elections, perhaps including a new constitution. Ideally, international and multinational organizations will participate in the readying of such post-conflict operations, including the UN, NATO, and other regional and Islamic organizations.

Force should be used as the last resort; after all diplomatic means have been exhausted, unless information indicates that further delay would present an immediate risk to the assembled forces and organizations. This action should not be categorized as "preemptive."

Once initiated, any military operation should aim for the most rapid accomplishment of its operational aims and prompt turnover to follow-on organizations and agencies.

If we proceed as outlined above, we may be able to minimize the disruption to the ongoing campaign against Al Qaeda, reduce the impact on friendly governments in the region, and even contribute to the resolution of other regional issues such as the Arab-Israeli conflict, Iranian efforts to develop nuclear capabilities, and Saudi funding for terrorism. But there are no guarantees. The war is unpredictable and could be difficult and costly. And what is at risk in the aftermath is an open-ended American ground commitment in Iraq and an even deeper sense of humiliation in the Arab world, which could intensify our problems in the region and elsewhere.

I look forward to answering questions and helping the Committee assess the costs and risks of the alternatives before us.


Democrats voiced their concerns on the Senate floor:

Senator Feingold on October 11, 2002:

Mr. President, I want to be clear about something. None of this is to say that I don't agree with the President on much of what he has said about the fight against terrorism and even what he has said about Iraq. I agree post-9/11, we face, as the President has said, a long and difficult fight against terrorism and we must be very patient and very vigilant and we must be ready to act and make some very serious sacrifices. And with regard to Iraq, I agree that Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction: chemical, biological and potentially nuclear weapons. I agree that Saddam Hussein is exceptionally dangerous and brutal, if not uniquely so, as the President argues. And I agree, I support the concept of regime change. Saddam Hussein is one of several despots from the international community -- whom the international community should condemn and isolate with the hope of new leadership in those nations. And, yes, I agree, if we do this Iraq invasion, I hope Saddam Hussein will actually be removed from power this time.

And I agree, therefore, Mr. President, we cannot do nothing with regard to Saddam Hussein and Iraq. We must act. We must act with serious purpose and stop the weapons of mass destruction and stop Saddam Hussein. And I agree a return to the inspections regime of the past alone is not a serious, credible policy.

I also believe and agree as important and as preferable as U.N. action and multilateral solutions to this problem are, we cannot give the United Nations the ability to veto our ability to counter this threat to our country. We retain and will always retain the right of self-defense, including, of course, self-defense against weapons of mass destruction. When such a threat requiring self-defense would present itself -- and I am skeptical that that is exactly what we're dealing with here -- then we can, if necessary, act alone, including militarily.

So, Mr. President, these are all areas where I agree with the Administration.

Snip...

In my judgment, the issue that presents the greatest potential threat to U.S. national security, Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, has not been addressed in any comprehensive way by the Administration to date. Of course, I know that we don't need to know all the details, and we don't have to be given all the details, and we shouldn't be given all the details. But we've got to be given some kind of a reasonable explanation. Before we vote on this resolution, we need a credible plan for securing <W.M.D>. sites and not allowing materials of concern to slip away during some chaotic course of action. I know that's a tall order, but, Mr. President, it's a necessary demand.

As I said, I agree with the Administration when it asserts that returning to the same restricted weapons inspection regime of the recent past is not a credible policy for addressing the <W.M.D>. problem in Iraq. But, Mr. President, there is nothing credible about the we'll-figure-that-out-later approach that we've heard to date. What if actors competing for power in a post-Hussein world have access to <W.M.D>.? What if there is chaos in the wake of the regime's fall that provides new opportunities for nonstate actors, including terrorist organizations, to bid on the sinister items tucked away in Iraq?

Some would say those who do not unquestionly support the Administration are failing to provide for our national security. But, Mr. President, I'm sure of this. These issues are critical to that security, and I have yet to get any answers.

Mr. President, we need an honest assessment of the commitment required of America. If the right way to address this threat is through internationally-supported military action in Iraq and Saddam Hussein's regime falls, we will need to take action to ensure stability in Iraq. This could be very costly and time consuming, could involve the occupation -- the occupation, Mr. President, of a Middle Eastern country. Now, this is not a small matter. The American occupation of a Middle Eastern country. Consider the regional implications of that scenario, the unrest in moderate states that calls for action against American interests, the difficulty of bringing stability to Iraq so we can extricate ourselves in the midst of regional turmoil. Mr. President, we need much more information about how we propose to proceed so that we can weigh the costs and benefits to our national security.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/feingold1.html


Senator Kerry on October 9, 2002:

So the issue is not over the question of whether or not the threat is real, or whether or not people agree there is a threat. It is over what means we will take, and when, in order to try to eliminate it.

The reason for going to war, if we must fight, is not because Saddam Hussein has failed to deliver gulf war prisoners or Kuwaiti property. As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime.

Regime change has been an American policy under the Clinton administration, and it is the current policy. I support the policy. But regime change in and of itself is not sufficient justification for going to war--particularly unilaterally--unless regime change is the only way to disarm Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction pursuant to the United Nations resolution.

As bad as he is, Saddam Hussein, the dictator, is not the cause of war. Saddam Hussein sitting in Baghdad with an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is a different matter.

In the wake of September 11, who among us can say, with any certainty, to anybody, that those weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater--a nuclear weapon--then reinvade Kuwait, push the Kurds out, attack Israel, any number of scenarios to try to further his ambitions to be the pan-Arab leader or simply to confront in the region, and once again miscalculate the response, to believe he is stronger because he has those weapons?

And while the administration has failed to provide any direct link between Iraq and the events of September 11, can we afford to ignore the possibility that Saddam Hussein might accidentally, as well as purposely, allow those weapons to slide off to one group or other in a region where weapons are the currency of trade? How do we leave that to chance?

Snip…

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq , and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.

I am pleased that our pressure, and the questions we have asked, and the criticisms that have been raised publicly, the debate in our democracy has pushed this administration to adopt important changes, both in language as well as in the promises that they make.

The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq . It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq . None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

Snip…

I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted in the resolution, to send a determination to Congress that the United States tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great he must act absent a new resolution--a power, incidentally, that the President of the United States always has.


I believe this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority. I think it would have been a better way to do this. But it does not change the bottom line of what we are voting for.

The administration, unwisely, in my view, rejected the Biden-Lugar approach. But, perhaps as a nod to the sponsors, it did agree to a determination requirement on the status of its efforts at the United Nations. That is now embodied in the White House text.

Snip…

America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements.

Because of my concerns, and because of the need to understand, with clarity, what this resolution meant, I traveled to New York a week ago. I met with members of the Security Council and came away with a conviction that they will indeed move to enforce, that they understand the need to enforce, if Saddam Hussein does not fulfill his obligation to disarm.

And I believe they made it clear that if the United States operates through the U.N., and through the Security Council, they--all of them--will also bear responsibility for the aftermath of rebuilding Iraq and for the joint efforts to do what we need to do as a consequence of that enforcement.

I talked to Secretary General Kofi Annan at the end of last week and again felt a reiteration of the seriousness with which the United Nations takes this and that they will respond.

If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.

When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. I will vote yes because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. And the administration, I believe, is now committed to a recognition that war must be the last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we must act in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein.

As the President made clear earlier this week, ``Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable.'' It means ``America speaks with one voice.''

Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

Snip…

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize ``yet.'' Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

Snip...

The definition of purpose circumscribes the authority given to the President to the use of force to disarm Iraq because only Iraq's weapons of mass destruction meet the two criteria laid out in this resolution.

Snip...

That is why I believe so strongly before one American soldier steps foot on Iraqi soil, the American people must understand completely its urgency. They need to know we put our country in the position of ultimate strength and that we have no options, short of war, to eliminate a threat we could not tolerate.

Page: S10173
Page: S10174


Democrats voted:

Resolutions


Bush lied, violated the IWR and illegally invaded Iraq:

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
Source: President Delivers "State of the Union", White House (1/28/2003).


Bush's letter and report to Congress included lies and false information.

Iraq war illegal...

Nothing was going to stop Bush from going to war. He had the War Powers Resolution. He had the a 2001 resolution to pursue the 9/11 terrorists (the same one he claimed authorized him to spy on Americans). He had a war budget for Afghanistan. He had the country believing that Iraq had WMD and was responsible for 9/11. Some people enlisted to go fight in Iraq for those very reasons!

Bush was going to war no matter what. The IWR was to hold him to inspections and to agree that he would only go to war with Iraq as a last resort!

I'm so glad Kerry is focused on ending this war and out of this BS campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Too bad
you didn't highlight this part of Clark's opening remarks...although you posted them....


Saddam has been pursuing nuclear weapons for over twenty years.

According to all estimates made available HE DOES NOT now have these weapons.

The best public assessment is that if he were to acquire fissionable material he might field some type of weapon within two YEARS.

IF he has to enrich the uranium ore itself, then a period of perhaps FIVE YEARS might be required. .


NO URGENCY IN CLARK'S MESSAGE THAT I CAN READ. Stating that Saddam was a dangerous man who had chemical weapons was NOT why they voted to go to Iraq......

so stop with the nonsense!

And understand this...
-----------------------------------

3 Senators who voted NO!




KING: Why did you vote against?

KENNEDY: Well, I'm on the Armed Services Committee and I was inclined to support the administration when we started the hearings in the Armed Services Committee. And, it was enormously interesting to me that those that had been -- that were in the armed forces that had served in combat were universally opposed to going.

I mean we had Wes Clark testify in opposition to going to war at that time. You had General Zinni. You had General (INAUDIBLE). You had General Nash. You had the series of different military officials, a number of whom had been involved in the Gulf I War, others involved in Kosovo and had distinguished records in Vietnam, battle-hardened combat military figures. And, virtually all of them said no, this is not going to work and they virtually identified...

KING: And that's what moved you?

KENNEDY: And that really was -- influenced me to the greatest degree. And the second point that influenced me was in the time that we were having the briefings and these were classified. They've been declassified now. Secretary Rumsfeld came up and said "There are weapons of mass destruction north, south, east and west of Baghdad." This was his testimony in the Armed Services Committee.

And at that time Senator Levin, who is an enormously gifted, talented member of the Armed Services Committee said, "Well, we're now providing this information to the inspectors aren't we?" This is just before the war. "Oh, yes, we're providing that." "But are they finding anything?" "No."
snip
There were probably eight Senators on the Friday before the Thursday we voted on it. It got up to 23. I think if that had gone on another -- we had waited another ten days, I think you may have had a different story.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/20/lkl.01.html


Sen. Levin on the floor of the Senate BEFORE THE IWR VOTE when he submitted his own resolution THAT WASN'T A BLANK CHECK...:

"General Clark, the former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, who testified at the same hearing, echoed the views of General Shalikashvili and added "we need to be certain we really are working through the United Nations in an effort to strengthen the institution in this process and not simply checking a block."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/10.05B.levin.dont.p.htm

and the late great Sen. Paul Wellstone–
“As General Wes Clark, former Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe has recently noted, a premature go-it-alone invasion of Iraq "would super-charge recruiting for Al Qaida."
http://www.wellstone.org/news/news_detail.aspx?itemID=2778&catID=298

THE FACT IS THAT NO ONE DENIED THAT SADDAM WAS A THREAT OR THAT HE HAD CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS -- THAT WAS NOT JUSTIFICATION TO GO TO WAR THOUGH. THOSE WHO VOTED NO UNDERSTOOD THAT!


Let's take the official view that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons. Neither of these is a weapon of mass destruction. Nuclear weapons are the only weapon of mass destruction. Guess who has the most of these on the planet? It was the opinion of the International Atomic Energy Agency that Iraq was light years away from producing nuclear weapons. But the good old mainstream media went along with the farcical story that President Bush and colleagues promoted.

Let's step aside for a brief moment and consider a "what if." What if Iraq really had biological and chemical weapons? As a third rate military power, Iraq had no ability at all to deliver these weapons outside a very limited range. Several studies concluded that the only time Saddam might be tempted to use them was if Iraq was invaded.

So let's just assume that the mainstream media is stupid. It isn't that hard to believe. Bush and his colleagues claimed that the invasion of Iraq was based on bad information ... mostly from the CIA. Even if this were true, how many outlets in the mainstream media asked a question that to my knowledge has never been answered (or even asked)? Why didn't President Bush let the United Nations Weapons Inspectors finish their job?
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06259.html


Cause Bush didn't have to.....cause Bush was given a blank check.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Don't tell me to cut the nonsense!
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 02:03 AM by ProSense
The convenient spin around here is atrocious. The IWR was a vote for Bush to continue with the inspections and go through the UN. Watch http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3120334&mesg_id=3120334">Obama, who everyone holds up as the guy who would have voted against the IWR (My transcription):

I am actually pleased with how things evolved from where I thought they were about three months, in a sense that I think, whether because of Colin Powell's intervention or the pressures from allies across Europe that President Bush when through the United Nations obtained Security Council Resolution calling for aggressive inspections in Iraq. I don't think that there is anybody who imagines that Saddam Hussein is a good guy or somebody that isn't a threat to stability in the region as well as his own people. But I also think that us rushing headlong into a war unilaterally was a mistake and may still be a mistake and I think we have to give those inspections a chance.


Play stupid games if you want to, leave me out of them.

And don't tell me crap about Clark's anti-war position.


edited typos.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I'm not sure what your point is with this Obama quote....
"But I also think that us rushing headlong into a war unilaterally was a mistake and may still be a mistake and I think we have to give those inspections a chance."

and so what? Does that make Obama FOR the Iraq War? I don't see it. :shrug:

At the protest, I was holding a sign that read.....Give peace a chance, Tell Bush to let the inspectors finish their work.....

And I'm not telling you about Clark position......I'm asking those reading this to read what you posted carefully......and in doing that, it is clear that Clark never felt that a blank check resolution was required....and in fact, he specifically said this on a number of occasions...
---------------

On August 29, 2002, Clark said regarding a proposed invasion of Iraq, "Well, taking it to the United Nations doesn't put America's foreign policy into the hands of the French. What you have to do as the United States is you have to get other nations to commit and come in with you, and so you've got to provide the evidence, and the convincing of the French and the French public, and the leadership elite. Look, there's a war fever out there right now in some quarters of some of the leadership elements in this country, apparently, because I keep hearing this sense of urgency and so forth. Where is that coming from? The vice president said that today he doesn't know when they're going to get nuclear weapons. They've been trying to get nuclear weapons for -- for 20 years.So if there's some smoking gun, if there's some really key piece of information that hasn't been shared publicly, maybe they can share it with the French." CNN, 8/29/02

On August 29, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq and its aftermath, "I think -- but I think that underneath, what you're going to have is you're going to have more boiling in the street. You're going to have deeper anger and you're going to feed the recruitment efforts of Al Qaeda. And this is the key point, I think, that we're at here. The question is what's the greater threat? Three thousand dead in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon underscore the fact that the threat we're facing primarily is Al Qaeda. We have to work the Iraq problem around dealing with Al Qaeda. And the key thing about dealing with Al Qaeda is, we can't win that war alone." CNN, 8/29/02

On August 29, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq, "My perspective would be I'd like to see us slow down the rush to go after Saddam Hussein unless there's some clear convincing evidence that we haven't had shared with the public that he's right on the verge of getting nuclear weapons. CNN, 8/29/02

On August 30, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq, "Going after Iraq right now is at best a diversion, and at worst it risks the possibility of strengthening Al Qaeda and undercutting our coalition at a critical time. So at the strategic level, I think we have to keep our eye on the ball and focus on the number one strategic priority. There are a lot of other concerns as well, but that's the main one." CNN, 8/30/02

On August 30, 2002, Clark said, regarding a possible invasion of Iraq, "It seems that way to me. It seems that this would supercharge the opinion, not necessarily of the elites in the Arab world, who may bow to the inevitability of the United States and its power, but the radical groups in the Middle East, who are looking for reasons and gaining more recruits every time the United States makes a unilateral move by force. They will gain strength from something like this. We can well end up in Iraq with thousands of military forces tied down, and a worse problem in coping with a war on terror here in the United States or Europe, or elsewhere around the world." CNN, 8/30/02

September 16, 2002:
Clark said Congress shouldn't give a "blank check," to Use Force Against Iraq.

On September 16, 2002, Clark said, regarding Iraq and possible Congressional authorization to use force, "Don't give a blank check. Don't just say, you are authorized to use force. Say what the objectives are. Say what the limitations are, say what the constraints and restraints are. What is it that we, the United States of America, hope to accomplish in this operation?" CNN 9/16/02


WOODRUFF: How much difference does it make, the wording of these resolution or resolutions that Congress would pass in terms of what the president is able to do after?

CLARK: I think it does make a difference because I think that Congress, the American people's representatives, can specify what it is they hope that the country will stand for and what it will do.

So I think the -- what people say is, don't give a blank check. Don't just say, you are authorized to use force. Say what the objectives are. Say what the limitations are, say what the constraints and restraints are. What is it that we, the United States of America, hope to accomplish in this operation.

And I think that the support will be stronger and it will be more reliable and more consistent if we are able to put the specifics into the resolution.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/16/ip.00.html



On September 23, 2002, Clark said, regarding Iraq and possible Congressional authorization for the use of force, "When you're talking about American men and women going and facing the risk we've been talking about this afternoon... you want to be sure that you're using force and expending American blood and lives in treasure as the ultimate last resort. Not because of a sense of impatience with the arcane ways of international institutions." Senate Committee on Armed Forces 9/23/02
http://armedservices.house.gov/openingstatementsandpressreleases/107thcongress/02-09-26clark.html

On October 5, 2002, Clark said, regarding debate on Congressional authorization for war against Iraq, "The way the debate has emerged, it's appeared as though to the American people, at least to many that talk to me, as though the administration jumped to the conclusion that it wanted war first and then the diplomacy has followed." CNN 10/5/02

On January 23, 2003, Clark said, regarding the case the United States had made for war against Iraq to the United Nations, "There are problems with the case that the U.S. is making, because the U.S. hasn't presented publicly the clear, overwhelming sense of urgency to galvanize the world community to immediate military action now."CNN 1/23/03
http://www.clark04.com/faq/iraq.html


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
97. There is also
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. That's bull Prosense.
Try convincing Feingold, Byrd, Kennedy, and the many others who had the courage to vote against that was what the vote was for.

Kerry wanted to be President, so he voted yes.

Simple as that. Sometimes the truth hurts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. No it's not bull!
You're trying to convince everyone that a career General is anti-war when he lauded Bush after mission accomplished. So don't tell me it's bull.

The convenient thing everyone points to is the vote, never acknowledging that every one of Kerry's statements in the months leading up to the war, were highly critical of Bush, called him out for being reckless and arrogant. Yeah, he said all those things, including calling for regime change, cause he wanted to be president.

The facts about the IWR are clear. Bush violated it and that's all there is to it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
86. Actually, your link about Clark "lauding" Bush takes us to a thread you started
and where a link to the original article that Clark wrote doesn't work and where you neglected to include quite a bit of what the General wrote.

I responded to you on that thread here....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2997218&mesg_id=3000324

and basically told you that Clark wasn't "lauding" Bush on the Fall of Bagdad...but rather raising questions about how it all went down, and what it was supposed to be about....

The last part of his last paragraph of a lengthy oped....."But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven’t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed."--Wes Clark
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
93. There you go again.....in the very first sentence of your post.
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 04:49 PM by Clarkie1
Using twisted lies that have been debunked on this board probably over a hundred times at least the past years, and you know it.

I have nothing more to say to you on this. The truth will out...it already has.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Is this Clark's quote:
"As for the political leaders themselves, President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt."

Gen. Wesley Clark


Yes or no?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #94
115. Are you just "wanting" to read this in a nefarious way....cause I'm reading it
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 10:51 PM by FrenchieCat
literally, and Clark doesn't say "WE" should be proud. He also doesn't say "HE" Clark was proud. He purposely says They should be proud...because hell yeah, they continued on their path to war no matter what anyone else said\, and indeed they were "resolute" (Bush's word for himself).

But see, those who want to portray Clark's 17 paragraph article as you do; they like to pretend as though reading only one sentence here and there out of many will convey the context of the article in full.

So read what he goes on to say about the two proud Bush/Blair....

Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced. And more tough questions remain to be answered.


In essence, people will believe what they want if it is convenient for them to believe it and if it helps make their case for whatever interest they serve.

I would assume, and so should others that IF someone was going to bother picking up an article to read, one would read the whole thing; not three lines here, skip 12 paragraph and start reading at the 13th paragraph, but stop reading it before it ended.......and then somehow feel that they could depict the opinion of the author......and worse still, tell others what the author was truly saying, in particular those of us who bothered to read the entire thing. Well of course, most people DON'T read like I described, but unfortunately some people like you feel righteously justified in cutting and pasting in order to make the point you want to make.

In particular, coming from a Kerry supporter, it makes me sad...because out of all candidates supporters, I always thought that they would take greater care than others in not intentionally re-interpreting what one has written or said to "fit" to what they wanted... by skipping most of what was there.

But I'm glad that Wes Clark now understands the deficit that we face in the mental department when it comes to the politics of some. I'm sure he'll do very well this time around, if he chooses to run.....now that he fully understands the "rules of the game" no matter how stupid and disingenuous those rules are.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
50. No inspections, No UN
The law does not require any inspections by the UN.
The law does not require any UNSC resolution.

"The IWR was a vote for Bush to continue with the inspections and go through the UN." is factually false.

Read Sections 2 and 3. Please post the requirements therein for inspections and a UNSC approval.

Senator Leahy knew. From post #35, Leahy's statement on the IWR:

"This resolution, like others before it, does not declare anything. It tells the President "you decide." This resolution, when you get through the pages of whereas clauses, is nothing more than a blank check. The President can decide when to use military force, how to use it, and for how long."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Sen Leahy one week before Bush illegally invaded Iraq:
Statement of Senator Patrick Leahy
On The Senate Floor
Concerning Iraq
The Countdown To War
March 13, 2003


Snip...

Despite the President’s assertion that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States, that assertion begs credulity when the UN inspectors are making some progress and a quarter of a million American soldiers are poised to invade. Absent a credible, imminent threat, a decision to enforce Resolution 1441 should only be made by the Security Council, if it becomes clear that the inspectors cannot do the job, not by the United States or any other government alone.

The President says war is a last resort. If he feels that way, why do he and his advisers want so desperately to short circuit the inspections process? Why is he so anxious to spend billions of dollars to buy the cooperation of friends who do not yet believe war is necessary? Why is he so unconcerned about the predictable, hostile reaction of the Muslim world to the occupation of Iraq, perhaps for years, by a U.S. military "government"? Why is the President so determined to run roughshod over our traditional alliances and partnerships, which have served us well and whose support we need both today and in the future?

I cannot pretend to understand the thinking of those in the Administration who for months or even longer have seemed possessed with a kind of messianic zeal in favor of war. A preemptive war against Iraq without a declaration of war by Congress or the UN Security Council’s support, may be easy to win, but it could violate international law and cause lasting damage to our alliances and to our ability to obtain the cooperation of other nations in meeting so many other global challenges.

Just recently, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge warned that a war with Iraq could bring more threats and more terrorist attacks within the United States. The CIA Director has testified that Saddam Hussein is more likely to use chemical or biological weapons if he is attacked. Yet we are marching ahead as if these warnings do not matter.

I have said before that this war is not inevitable, and I still believe it can be avoided. But I fear that the President, despite opposition among the American people, in the UN, and around the world, is no longer listening to anyone except those within his inner circle who are eager to fight. I hope the Iraqi Government comes to its senses. I hope we do not walk away from the United Nations. I hope we do not decide that just because our troops are there we cannot afford to wait.

I yield the floor.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Again, Leahy was right
Where in the IWR is it supported that "the IWR was a vote for Bush to continue with the inspections and go through the UN."

It was not. Again, where in Section 2 or 3 is the legally binding requirement for inspections or a UNSC resolution?

It simply does not exist.

"This resolution does not declare anything. It tells the President "you decide." This resolution, when you get through the pages of whereas clauses, is nothing more than a blank check. The President can decide when to use military force, how to use it, and for how long."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Did you actually see the
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 01:10 PM by ProSense
resolutions and how members voted?

Every member of Congress voted for a resolution similar to this one, and everyone of them, if passed, would have been violated.

Leahy is right, this was not a declaration of war, Bush had to justify his actions, and he did so by lying. IWR violated. Bush's war.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #59
141. SJ 23
was in an AUMF against those who perpatrated 9/11. Passed 98-0 and has nothing to do with the IWR.
IWR was not violated, because there was no condition to violate.
And how can Bush lie in the text of Congressional law? Congress wrote and passed the IWR.
And if Bush violated the IWR, why has not one person in Congress or the media called him on it?

Here are the relevant points:

SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS.

The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the
President to...

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) Authorization.--The President is authorized to use the Armed
Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and
appropriate...

(b) Presidential Determination.--In connection with the exercise of
the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President
shall... make available... his determination.


NO conditions. No legal requirements. No violation. The law is short and simple - No conditions, Bush decides. The end.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
19. Totally agree Clarkie1.
They were voting the way the wind was blowing. They damn well knew what they were doing. IMO no one who voted for invasion has any integrity. Not one of them can be trusted.

Whining that they were "fooled" is damage control, i.e., bullshit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Boo Boo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
22. Apparently, Hillary told some reps from Code Pink she met with that all
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 12:51 AM by Boo Boo
Saddam had to do to avoid war was disarm, and that she had no expectation that he would. To me, that logically equates to voting for war. She knew that the authorization would result in war. Now, she wants to say that Bush somehow did not live up to her expectations, or understanding, of what IWR meant.

I agree with your definition of being misled. Not, as others say, that "we" were misled about WMD, but rather that the question is one of whether or not members of Congress were voting for war. They were. We all knew what that vote meant; that's why we opposed IWR so strongly (those of us that did).

When Wes Clark testified he did not question the intelligence, he questioned the wisdom of an invasion of Iraq. He questioned the urgency; the idea that there was some imperative for drastic and immediate action on the part of the President. He warned that invading Iraq would "supercharge" terrorist recruitment, and he was right. He warned against giving Bush a blank check, in spite of the intelligence on WMD. He did not dispute the intelligence on WMD at all; that's not why he opposed invading Iraq.

I will always believe that the votes of many members (including Clinton, Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards) were heavily swayed by their own political calculus. They were afraid that a vote against the IWR could be used to paint them as weak, and as being soft on terrorism.

That's one hell of a sad reason to send someone else's child off to die.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. I agree, and we have to hold them accountable.
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 03:05 AM by Clarkie1
Senator Clinton is trying to reframe the issue, but there is no greater issue than sending American servicemen and servicewomen off to die in an uneccesary war.

It is the most important issue, and one of the best ways we can hold those Senators who voted for the resolution accountable is by refusing to cast a vote for them in a Presidential primary, and making it clear to others why we refuse to cast a vote for them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
24. If a congressperson voted for the IWR then
they have only three possible things to say now:

1. I was stupid. Incompetently, negligently stupid. I'm sorry I was even more stupid than the degenerate drooling dumbass in the white house.

2. I was for the war. Sounded like a pretty good idea to illegally invade the wrong country, commit war crimes and all. How was I supposed to know it would turn out so badly?

3. I knew it was wrong and a bad idea, but my political calculations were that I should not look weak on national security. How was I supposed to know that fascism wouldn't quite take here in Murka?

Anything else any of them say now--I was misled, I didn't know he'd actually go to war, etc.--is lying. They put their political career ahead of their obligation to the country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
75. On the nose. nm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
82. Exactly right!!
And any of those 3 reasons make it clear to me that none of them are fit to be President -- or really even a Senator.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. but you don't really get to choose,
unless you think choosing between the two corporate flunkies offered to us by the plutocrats is a "choice."

And the plutocrats think the current crop is eminently fit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
25. Apparently Clarkie1 is able to read minds.
Because this is one of the most convulated rationales I've ever seen -
Some Senators didn't vote for it because they weren't misled,
Yet the ones that voted for it weren't misled either,
because I say so.

By the way, the IWR vote was in October 2002 - it wasn't "2 years after 9/11 of looking weak . . "

It was the year after, a month before the 2002 mid-terms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. They weren't "misled".....they knew.....
The following is a pretty clear indication that most of the senators understood that there was no evidence to go to war.....and that the intelligence information was sketchy at best.

So no, not one of the senators can say that there were misled or confused or ill informed. .

So let me quote what Feingold said back in 2002 on the floor of the Senate ....

October 9, 2002
Many of us have spent months reviewing the issue of the advisability of invading Iraq in the near future. From hearings and meetings on the process and the very important role of Congress to the difficult questions of substance, including foreign policy and military implications, after my own review and carefully listening to hundreds of Wisconsin citizens in person, I spoke on the floor on Thursday, September 26, and, Mr. President, I indicated my opposition to the original draft use of force authorization by the President...

Now, after many more meetings and reading articles and attending briefings, listening to my colleagues' speeches, and especially listening to the President's speech in Cincinnati on Monday, Mr. President, I still don't believe that the President and the Administration have adequately answered the critical questions. They have not yet met the important burden to persuade Congress and the American people that we should invade Iraq at this time.

Both in terms of the justifications for an invasion and in terms of the mission and the plan for the invasion, Mr. President, the Administration's arguments just don't add up.
They don't add up to a coherent basis for a new major war in the middle of our current challenging fight against the terrorism of al Qaeda and related organizations. Therefore, I cannot support the resolution for the use of force before us.
http://www.feingold.senate.gov/speeches/02/10/2002A10531.html


Here's Sen. Byrd on 10/4/02:

"Let's go back to the war in Vietnam. I was here. I was one of the Senators who voted for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. Yes, I voted for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. I am sorry for that. I am guilty of doing that. I should have been one of the two, or at least I should have made it three, Senators who voted against that Gulf of Tonkin resolution. But I am not wanting to commit that sin twice, and that is exactly what we are doing here. This is another Gulf of Tonkin resolution.
snip
Does the Senator have any idea, based on his having information from the administration, what is the likelihood we might find ourselves bogged down in the hot sands of the Middle East and our men and women may have to fight a house-to-house, apartment-to-apartment battle in any one of the cities of Iraq? What would be the cost in terms of human life, not only of Iraqis but of our own men and women, if we were faced with a war in which we have to go street by street, avenue by avenue, house by house, floor to floor, to root out the snipers? What would be the cost in American lives?
snip
I wonder this further, if the Senator will allow me: Have the American people been asked to face up to that possibility? And, no, the administration will not make its military officers available for one reason or another to accommodate the Senate Armed Forces hearings, but why then do we have to rush in and make a decision before an election that is only 30 days away? Why should the leadership of this Congress not say we are going to go home, we are going to talk to the people, we are going to listen to what they have to say? After all, they are the ones who are going to have to pay the price. We will go home and we will await this fateful, momentous, all-important, vital decision until after the election, and we will come back.

When I was the majority leader of this Senate, I, from time to time, included in the adjournment resolution a provision
http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0210a/iraqdebate.html


Here's Sen. Kennedy on 10/04/02

I intend to oppose the Lieberman-Warner resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq. America should not go to war against Iraq unless and until all other reasonable alternatives are exhausted.
snip
It is an open secret in Washington that the Nation's uniformed military leadership is skeptical about the wisdom of war with Iraq. They share the concern that it may adversely affect the ongoing war against al-Qaida and the continuing effort in Afghanistan by draining resources and armed forces already stretched so thin that many Reservists have been called for a second year of duty, and record numbers of service members have been kept on active duty beyond their obligated service.

A largely unilateral American war that is widely perceived in the Muslim world as untimely or unjust could worsen, not lessen, the threat of terrorism. It could strengthen the ranks of al-Qaida sympathizers and trigger an escalation in terrorist acts. As General Wesley Clark, the former Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, told the Senate Armed Services Committee, that kind of war against Iraq, would "super-charge recruiting for al-Qaida."

In a September 10 article, General Clark wrote: "Unilateral U.S. action today would disrupt the war against al-Qaida."

We ignore such wisdom and advice from many of the best of our military at our own peril.
http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0210a/iraqdebate4.html


Bob Graham OP-ed in the WAPO on the intelligence on Iraq provided in 2002 and why it didn't add up, and so he voted NO on the resolution. John Edwards was on that committee, so he saw the same information that Graham saw


In the early fall of 2002, a joint House-Senate intelligence inquiry committee, which I co-chaired, was in the final stages of its investigation of what happened before Sept. 11. As the unclassified final report of the inquiry documented, several failures of intelligence contributed to the tragedy. But as of October 2002, 13 months later, the administration was resisting initiating any substantial action to understand, much less fix, those problems.

At a meeting of the Senate intelligence committee on Sept. 5, 2002, CIA Director George Tenet was asked what the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) provided as the rationale for a preemptive war in Iraq. An NIE is the product of the entire intelligence community, and its most comprehensive assessment. I was stunned when Tenet said that no NIE had been requested by the White House and none had been prepared. Invoking our rarely used senatorial authority, I directed the completion of an NIE.

Tenet objected, saying that his people were too committed to other assignments to analyze Saddam Hussein's capabilities and will to use chemical, biological and possibly nuclear weapons. We insisted, and three weeks later the community produced a classified NIE.

There were troubling aspects to this 90-page document.
While slanted toward the conclusion that Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction stored or produced at 550 sites, it contained vigorous dissents on key parts of the information, especially by the departments of State and Energy. Particular skepticism was raised about aluminum tubes that were offered as evidence Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program. As to Hussein's will to use whatever weapons he might have, the estimate indicated he would not do so unless he was first attacked.

Under questioning, Tenet added that the information in the NIE had not been independently verified by an operative responsible to the United States. In fact, no such person was inside Iraq. Most of the alleged intelligence came from Iraqi exiles or third countries, all of which had an interest in the United States' removing Hussein, by force if necessary.

The American people needed to know these reservations, and I requested that an unclassified, public version of the NIE be prepared. On Oct. 4, Tenet presented a 25-page document titled "Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs." It represented an unqualified case that Hussein possessed them, avoided a discussion of whether he had the will to use them and omitted the dissenting opinions contained in the classified version. Its conclusions, such as "If Baghdad acquired sufficient weapons-grade fissile material from abroad, it could make a nuclear weapon within a year," underscored the White House's claim that exactly such material was being provided from Africa to Iraq.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/18/AR2005111802397_pf.html



Edwards after the fact...stating that he didn't vote against Iraq due to lack of intelligence....

John Edwards, meanwhile, wants to set the record straight - he was not fooled by the administration into supporting the war. And, he adds, neither was any other senator.

In an interview with Jeffrey Goldberg in the latest issue of The New Yorker, Edwards said: "I was convinced that Saddam had chemical and biological weapons and was doing everything in his power to get nuclear weapons. There was some disparity in the information I had about how far along he was in that process. I didn't rely on George Bush for that. And I personally think there's some dishonesty in suggesting that members of the United States Senate relied on George Bush for that information, because I don't think it's true. It's great politics. But it's not the truth."

Edwards refused to single out anyone, but Goldberg wrote that he appeared to be referring to John Kerry, who chose Edwards as his 2004 presidential running mate. Like Nelson, Kerry claims he was misled and "given evidence that was not true."

"I was on the intelligence committee," Edwards went on, "so I got direct information from the intelligence community. And then I had a series of meetings with former Clinton administration people. And they were all saying the same thing. Everything I was hearing in the intelligence committee was the same thing I was hearing from these guys. And there was nary a dissenting voice."

For Edwards, the question at the time was not whether the information he was getting was accurate but whether to trust George Bush. "I decided to do it, and I was wrong."

He should have listened to Bob Graham.
http://www.ocala.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/OPINION/201170311/1030/OPINION01


---------------------------------
Below, what was in the news at the time, clearly shows that Dems weren't really buying Bush's line on Iraq....and so many as they now say that they were misled (yet co-sponsored such IWR and were standing by their vote a year later), indeed understood what Bush was doing. Why some voted "FOR" as opposed to "AGAINST" the IWR varies greatly politico to politico.

Some, like Levin voted for a more restricted Resolution (as Clark said he would have) in where Bush would have had to come back AFTER securing a vote from the Security Council, but did not vote for the Blank Check resolution. The point of the more restrictive resolution was to attempt to slow Bush down, give the United Nation more power in the decision of war, give more time for the American people to debate the evidence, and in effect hope that the inspectors could come back with a definite pronouncement prior to a war being started.

Here are a few of those article, all from 2002, prior to the vote.

American Aides Split on Assessment of Iraq's Plans
By MICHAEL R. GORDON
WASHINGTON, Oct. 9 — A letter to Congress from the director of central intelligence has brought into public view divisions within the administration over what intelligence shows about Iraq's intentions and its willingness to ally itself with Al Qaeda.

The letter and other reports from the C.I.A. paint a worrisome picture of Iraq's pursuit of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction. But they do not support the White House's view that Iraq presents an immediate threat to the American homeland and may use Al Qaeda to carry out attacks at any moment.

Current and former administration officials say divisions between the C.I.A. and the White House and civilian Defense Department officials over intelligence on Iraq have been simmering for months.

But with the Oct. 7 letter, sent in the name of the director, George J. Tenet, the divisions came into the open.

As some Democratic lawmakers sought to use the letter to challenge the administration's case for attacking Iraq, the C.I.A. told the Senate Intelligence Committee today that it would not declassify additional material the panel wanted.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/10/politics/10INTE.html?ex=1169010000&en=a886bd130c09ef7c&ei=5070


editorial | posted June 20, 2002 (July 8, 2002 issue)
War on Iraq Is Wrong

In making the case for taking pre-emptive action against Iraq, the White House has been long on innuendo and very short on evidence of an Iraqi threat requiring such drastic remedies. What we do know is that since the Gulf War, Iraq's military capabilities have weakened significantly, to the point where they pose little or no threat to its neighbors, a fact reflected in Saddam Hussein's bid to improve relations with both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

The United Nations inspections regime that operated in Iraq until late 1998 destroyed most of Iraq's ballistic missiles and nuclear and chemical weapons program. Since then, UN financial controls have deprived the regime of the money it would need to rebuild its military machine or redevelop the infrastructure needed to produce weapons of mass destruction. We know that the regime lacks the reliable means for using any weapons it might have. Of the 819 Scud missiles that Saddam once possessed, all but two were accounted for before the inspections ended. The regime has some short-range missiles, and it is suspected of working on longer-range missiles, but since none have been tested they therefore would be of highly questionable reliability. Even if Saddam had been able to hide away one or two longer-range missiles, it is not clear what he would hope to gain from irrational and ultimately suicidal attacks on Israel or his other neighbors.
snip
The Administration seems to recognize the weakness of its case and has begun to shift the rationale for a pre-emptive strike to the danger that Saddam may pass weapons of mass destruction on to terrorist groups that threaten the United States. Again, there is no evidence that Saddam has cooperated with Al Qaeda or other "terrorist groups with global reach," in the Administration's words. In fact, according to the State Department's own report, Iraq's support for terrorist activities is modest compared with that attributed to some of the other states on its list. As the State Department said earlier this year, Saddam has not been involved in any terrorist plots against the West since his attempt to target Bush Senior during his 1993 visit to Kuwait. Nor is there any reason for the Iraqi leader to aid the apocalyptic goals of Islamic fanatics, who are seen to threaten his secular regime and his bid for leadership in the Arab world.
snip
A Security Council-coordinated containment and engagement strategy--involving international inspectors and targeted sanctions backed up by the threat of international force--would be an important precedent for world order and a much better guarantee of security than a pre-emptive war whose outcome is fraught with dangerous uncertainties. Democrats and Republicans, and all citizens with civic courage, must challenge a policy that poses a clear and present danger to international and American interests.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020708/editors

"Bush Developing Military Policy Of Striking First: New Doctrine Addresses Terrorism"
Thomas E. Ricks and Vernon Loeb, Washington Post Staff Writers
The Washington Post, 10 June 2002

The Bush administration is developing a new strategic doctrine that moves away from the Cold War pillars of containment and deterrence toward a policy that supports preemptive attacks against terrorists and hostile states with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.

The new doctrine will be laid out by President Bush's National Security Council as part of the administration's first "National Security Strategy" being drafted for release by early this fall, senior officials said.
snip
Inside the Pentagon, some officials suspect that the new doctrine may be acted upon sooner rather than later.

"I think the president is trying to get the American people ready for some kind of preemptive move" against Iraq, said a Pentagon consultant. He said it would not necessarily be against Iraqi weapons sites but might instead involve a seizure of Iraqi oil fields.

Rumsfeld may have captured this situation best when he declined to discuss preemption last week. Asked in an interview whether the U.S. government is contemplating preemptive moves against other nations' weapons of mass destruction, he replied: "Why would anyone answer that question if they were contemplating it?"
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/ricks.htm

"West sees glittering prizes ahead in giant oilfields,"
Michael Theodoulou in Nicosia and Roland Watson,
The Times (London), 11 July 2002

THE removal of President Saddam Hussein would open Iraqs rich new oilfields to Western bidders and bring the prospect of lessening dependence on Saudi oil.

No other country offers such untapped oilfields whose exploitation could lessen tensions over the Western presence in Saudi Arabia.
snip
However, regime change in Baghdad will be of little value to international oil companies unless it is followed by a stable Iraq with a strong central government. Companies cant go in unless there is peace. To develop Majnoon, you need two to three billion dollars and you dont invest that kind of money without stability, one industry analyst said.
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/iraq.htm

Mike Salinero, "Gen. Zinni Says War With Iraq Is Unwise,"
Tampa Tribune, 24 August 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TALLAHASSEE - One of President Bush's top Middle East trouble- shooters warned Friday against war with Iraq, saying it would stretch U.S. forces too thin and make unwanted enemies in the volatile region.

Retired Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni, the president's special envoy to the Mideast, made some of his strongest comments to date opposing war on Iraq. Speaking to the Economic Club of Florida in Tallahassee, Zinni said a war to bring down Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein would have numerous undesirable side effects and should be low on the nation's list of foreign policy objectives.

``I can give you many more before I get to that,'' Zinni said when asked if the United States should move to remove Saddam.

Zinni said the country should instead concentrate on negotiating a peace accord between Israel and the Palestinians, and on eliminating the Taliban in Afghanistan and the al-Qaida terrorist network that launched the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

``We need to make sure the Taliban and al-Qaida can't come back,'' he said.

Much more important to Mideast stability than Iraq is Iran, Zinni said. Iran has been one of the leading financiers of Islamic terror organizations such as Hezbollah since followers of the Ayatollah Khamenei took American hostages in 1979.
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/zinni2.htm

"The War on What? The White House and the Debate About Whom to Fight Next,"
Nicholas Lemann, The New Yorker, 9 September 2002

The United Nations located and destroyed large quantities of Iraqi WMD throughout the 1990s in spite of persistent Iraqi obstruction. Washington withdrew weapons inspectors in 1998, resulting in Operation Desert Fox, which further degraded Iraq's WMD capability.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction


III - IAEA Achievements in Iraq
Look under this heading here: http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/nwp2.html
---------------------------------
Indeed, this administration often obscured the fact that the UN destroyed all of Iraq's nuclear weapons program infrastructure and facilities by the time inspectors left in 1998. Even if Hussein had somehow secretly imported the materials necessary to rebuild them within the past five years, even as UN sanctions, no-fly zones and vigorous spying by Western forces remained firmly in place, Iraq could not hide the gases, heat, and gamma radiation which centrifuge facilities emit -- and which our intelligence capacities would have identified by now.

A week after the IAEA’s bombshell, Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), formally asked for an FBI investigation into the matter, stating that, “the fabrication of these documents may be part of a larger deception aimed at manipulating public opinion . . . regarding Iraq.”

At this point, with even White House insiders and media boosters admitting they no longer expect to find much, if any, in the way of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, different unconvincing storylines are being floated: The weapons all went to Syria, they were efficiently destroyed just hours before the U.S. invasion, etc. The truth, however, appears to be that Iraq was a paper tiger, with little or no ability to threaten the United States or Israel.
http://www.alternet.org/story/15854/










Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Thanks for supplying the quotes Frenchiecat.
They've been posted here on DU so many times it's mind-blowing how supporters of certain candidates are still in denial over something so obvious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
111. Unfortunately, editorials are not evidence.
Hell, I've even written editorials.

You obviously believe that every Democratic Senator that voted for the IWR must pay a pound of flesh for Bush's war.
I disagree.

If you would have read the IWR, you would have seen that there were many criteria that had to be met in order for Bush to order troops into Iraq.
That criteria was not met, but Bush invaded Iraq anyway.

Bush had enough votes in Congress to get the IWR passed, so you're beating a dead horse, Frenchiecat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
70. how could they have known?
how could US Senators *possibly* have known?

how could *anyone* possibly have known?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
29. Either they were too stupid to bother to find the truth, or they knew Bush was lying but
followed the advice of the political advisers and the DLC and voted for the war resolution thinking that after a short and victorious war, no one would care that Bush had lied.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. bingo! . . . n/t
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
36. "...bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely,
and therefore, war less likely." Hillary's words when she made her decision to vote for IWR.

For those who are unable to accept her vote or her decision not to "apologize", she has a solution.

Choose another candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
65. What a disgusting statement by Hillary.
I hadn't seen that before. She should have listened to her betters- like Leahy, Kennedy and Wellstone. Too bad she didn't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
In Truth We Trust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
37. Kick for tuth
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
41. A vote you say? There was a vote?
When? Where?

Dude, haven't you posted this before?

I kinda think maybe we know where you stand, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
42. Pandering this fabrication again I see....
The warmed over, boilerplate, criticisms that have no evidence to back them up...

Nothing new here...just the weekly rehash
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. May I remind you that DLC's Al From et al, argued that Democrats should vote for IWR
in order to get the war off the table as an election issue, and concentrate on bread and butter issues. Their rationale, a rather amoral one I may add, was that America's victory was a foregone conclusion, that the war would be short and sweet, and that in the aftermath no one would care that Bush lied about WMD.

The late Pope John Paul II warned Bush and Blair that if they went into Iraq, they would do so without G-d. We are now reaping the consequences of our irrational belief that America is the new Chosen People.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Hmmm...
I don't recall Al From being elected to the United States Senate...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. No, Al wasn't....but you do remember that there was an election coming up....
and that Al was for whatever reason, Consultant extraordinaire! Why? Don't ask me. But yes, many senators listened to him. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Provide me with any evidence...
That Al From's advice induced Senators to vote for the IWR...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Nevertheless, he did advocate that position and the DLC...
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 12:07 PM by IndianaGreen
did wield a lot of influence back then, and still does to some extend today. Al From was not the only DLCer that said we should just vote for IWR to get the issue off the table.

Consider how the misnamed Progressive Policy Institute, the DLC's think tank, has supported the war in Iraq over these past years, and how their views are reflected in the campaigns of certain Democratic candidates that shall remain nameless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Provide me any evidence...
That Al From induced Senators to vote for the IWR....

And what in your opinion induced the many NON-DLC senators (Tom Harkin?) to vote for the IWR...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. The DLC was staunchly pro-war in 2004
"Why the Iraq War Was Right"

from the DLC web site:

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252474&kaid=124&subid=307

Were they against it before they were for it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Again...
Provide any evidence that Al From induced Senators to vote for the IWR...

Merely restating the DLC position is not evidence...DLC members ignore the DLC position all the time...

And...provide me a reason why the many NON-DLC Senators (e.g. Tom Harkin), voted for it as well...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. The DLC was stongly in favor of the Iraq invasion
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 01:09 PM by SOS
Just read Will Marshall's PNAC co-signed letter.
The point that the DLC was for the invasion is clear.

Perhaps the DLC never said a word to their members. Maybe they just posted their PNAC talking points on their web site?

It's impossible to prove what Al From said in private to DLC Senators.
It is not, however, unreasonable to deduce that DLC members subscribe to DLC positions.
If they don't, they should quit.

On edit:

Democrats and The War

"The president's decision to prosecute this war without explicit authorization from the United Nations was a close call, but it was the right call."

So the members don't subscribe to this position? Or maybe they do? Maybe the DLC is simply irrelevant at this point.


http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=251490&kaid=124&subid=158
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. The DLC is a think tank...not the Freemasons...
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 01:08 PM by SaveElmer
They don't take loyalty oaths, they don't have secret handshakes, and they don't agree to subscribe to every position the DLC takes...

I belong to Greenpeace...I don't agree with everything they do...

I belong to MoveOn....I certainly don't agree with every position they take...

There are numerous examples of DLC members not taking DLC positions...there were whoel threads on John Kerry and his positions vis a vis the DLC...

There is no evidence...none...that Hillary voted for the IWR for any reason other than what she stated in October 2002, and has consistently said since then...



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Her position on the catastrophic invasion of Iraq
and the DLC position are the same by coincidence rather than by ideological agreement?
Fair enough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Uh...
The original response to this thread noted Al From advocated voting for the IWR as a way to get the political issue off the table...

Absolutely no evidence that Hillary took that position...


The link provided on a 2004 DLC article defending the war is also not the position Hillary took...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Barring a confession from a Senator, we are not mind readers, SaveElmer
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 01:01 PM by IndianaGreen
However, if the arguments in support of the IWR vote are similar to the arguments advanced by the neolibs of PPI/DLC and the Israel Lobby, one can reasonably surmise that there is ideological agreement between the two. Congress is not known for independent thinking, our elected representatives often rely on lobbyists to write legislation and on special interest groups to frame their public pronouncements.

How many Democrats went in front of AIPAC before the war in Iraq to say that they would never allow Saddam to get WMDs? How many are doing the same now in regards to Iran?

While we may not be able to read the minds of legislators to determine what prompted them to vote for IWR, or against Kerry/Feingold to name another one, we can certainly determine where their loyalties lie based on whether they voted the way that groups such as DLC and Israel Lobby wanted them to vote.

The IWR vote was not taken in a vacuum. Millions of people across the world marched against the war in 2002 and early 2003. The British press was particularly aggressive in exposing as fraudulent many of the WMD claims made by the Bush regime and the Blair government. At a minimum, one can establish that those that voted for IWR made a conscious decision to disregard the opposition to the war by many of their constituents, and the published evidence debunking the WMD claims by the US and the UK.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. So...
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 01:02 PM by SaveElmer
You acknowledge the possibility then...that she voted for the IWR for the exact reason she said she did...for the very same reason that every NON-DLC member said they did?

There is no evidence...none...that she voted for the IWR for the reasons you ascribe to Al From...

And in fact, there is plenty of evidence of the exact opposite...she has been entirely consistent in her explanation of her IWR vote from October 2002 forward...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Their public reasons for voting for IWR are even more damning...
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 01:18 PM by IndianaGreen
Hillary and Kerry, to name only two, said at the time that they trusted Bush. This is like saying "I am giving the car keys to my drunken cousin, and I trust him not to wreck the car while DUI." Trusting Bush is such a lapse in judgment that it should automatically disqualify the person from holding higher office.

Others said that they were misled. Unfortunately, many of those that are now saying they were misled, are now giving speeches to AIPAC railing against Iran's WMD. Misled once, and misled twice. Clearly none of them can be trusted for higher office.

The reason why apologizing for IWR is important is because it is a way of saying "you know that we know, that you voted for war out of political expediency, but we are willing to forgive you if you admit error and make amends for it." Kerry and Edwards have admitted their error, and Kerry has more than made amends for it. Hillary alone is unrepentant and defiant, as is Joe Lieberman. That's a rather odd company she keeps!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. ...
"Hillary and Kerry, to name only two, said at the time that they trusted Bush. This is like saying "I am giving the car keys to my drunken cousin, and I trust him not to wreck the car while DUI." Trusting Bush is such a lapse in judgment that it should automatically disqualify the person from holding higher office."

Now certainly it would be...but in October 2002 Bush was not the exposed liar to the extent he is today...that is simply the truth. He had only been in office 18 months, had conducted a largely successful (at the time) operation in Afghanistan, and they were getting explicit and detailed intelligence from a CIA chief that had been appointed by a Democrat...so in context your criticism does not hold water

"Others said that they were misled. Unfortunately, many of those that are now saying they were misled, are now giving speeches to AIPAC railing against Iran's WMD. Misled once, and misled twice. Clearly none of them can be trusted for higher office."

The convenient liberal tactic of leaving out information that would serve to refute the point you make. Hillary (and Edwards etc) advocate direct negotiations with Iraq as the first requirement, followed by a solid case made with irrefutable evidence, followed by non-military measures to induce Iran to give up any thought it has of building a nuclear weapon, followed by the gathering of true international support...in fact the exact same process we criticize Bush for not following in Iraq...

"The reason why apologizing for IWR is important is because it is a way of saying "you know that we know, that you voted for war out of political expediency, but we are willing to forgive you if you admit error and make amends for it." Kerry and Edwards have admitted their error, and Kerry has more than made amends for it. Hillary alone is unrepentant and defiant, as is Joe Lieberman. That's a rather odd company she keeps!"

You have NO evidence...NONE...that she voted for the IWR for political expediency..it is the charge that can be made that everyone believes with no evidence required...and of course there is the tired liberal tactic of equating her with Joe Lieberman...again with all evidence to the contrary...

Hillary should not apologize because none is required...and to do so would be to pander to a left wing mob simply for "political expediency"...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. And Hillary remained silent when Bush ordered the UN inspectors out of Iraq
so that he could start his PNAC war. While Hillary was not the only that was silent at the time, she has not apologized for that either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
67. Interesting letter from the Editors of the Nation to Congress.....
dated September 25, 2002.


editorial | posted September 25, 2002
An Open Letter to the Members of Congress

Soon, you will be asked to vote on a resolution authorizing the United States to overthrow the government of Iraq by military force. Its passage, we read on all sides, is a foregone conclusion, as if what the country now faces is not a decision but the disclosure of a fate. The nation marches as if in a trance to war.
snip
The silence of those of you in the Democratic Party is especially troubling. You are the opposition party, but you do not oppose. Raising the subject of the war, your political advisers tell you, will distract from the domestic issues that favor the party's chances in the forthcoming Congressional election. In the face of the Administration's pre-emptive war, your leaders have resorted to pre-emptive surrender. For the sake of staying in power, you are told, you must not exercise the power you have in the matter of the war. What, then, is the purpose of your re-election? If you succeed, you will already have thrown away the power you supposedly have won. You will be members of Congress, but Congress will not be Congress. Even the fortunes of the domestic causes you favor will depend far more on the decision on the war than on the outcome of the election.

On April 4, 1967, as the war in Vietnam was reaching its full fury, Martin Luther King Jr. said, "A time comes when silence is betrayal." And he said, "Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak."

Now the time to speak has come again. We urge you to speak--and, when the time comes, to vote--against the war on Iraq.
much more......
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20021014/editors




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
68. Patty Murray's statement of opposition and vote against the Iraq War....

After Great Deliberation, Murray Opposes Iraq Resolution
Wednesday, October 9, 2002

The text of Sen. Murray's statement follows:

Mr. President, I rise today to address the President's request for authority to begin military action in Iraq. I have to say that I've spent many weeks thinking about this issue and listening.

I've sat across the table from Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, National Security Advisor Rice, Governor Ridge, CIA Director Tenet, FBI Director Muller, Secretary of State Powell, and Vice President Cheney. I've listened closely to the President's speeches. And I've listened openly to the many questions my constituents have raised over the past few weeks.
snip
The question of war should not be placed in the context of trying to influence the outcome of an election. And surely, that cannot be the case today. The question is too grave for that to be the motivation -- even for that to be a motivation. The question of war should be placed squarely in the context of what is the right policy to achieve our nation's security goals.
snip
S J Res 46 does not provide the information and the objectives needed at this time. It is overly broad in defining the objectives of military action.

After considering the threat, the costs, and the unanswered questions, I have reached a decision. I will vote against the underlying resolution. I will vote against going to war at this time.
snip
Today we are being told we have no choice that we have to grant the president war-making authority immediately without knowing the ultimate goal or the ultimate cost and without knowing whether we're going it alone.

It may well be that someday our country needs to take military action in Iraq, but the decision right now to give the president this broad authority without focusing it narrowly on weapons of mass destruction, without the support of our allies, without defining the costs to our country today and tomorrow, is not something I can support given what we know today.

The constituents I hear from want to know: Why are we racing to take this action right now alone with so many questions unanswered? The Administration could answer those questions with clear, compelling facts and goals, but so far we haven't heard them.
http://murray.senate.gov/news.cfm?id=188920





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. Go Patty. Shame on Cantwell. nm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
71. I agree.
WE knew the truth here on DU. They knew it too -- but chose to take the politically expedient course at the time. As a result, hundreds of thousands of innocents have been slaughtered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrokenBeyondRepair Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
77. it's quite simple
those that voted for IWR are either war mongers bought off by corporate interest or they don't pay close enough attention to whats going on in the world..

it doesn't matter which is true; they need to be replaced regardless
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
78. Article praising Edwards' WAPO OpEd where he calls for what the IWR should include....

DLC | New Dem Daily | September 19, 2002
How to Craft a Congressional Resolution on Iraq

today, Sen. John Edwards (D-NC), in a Washington Post op-ed, provides a useful template for a resolution that not only reflects what the President needs to act against Saddam Hussein, but what our country needs in the way of placing the anti-Iraqi action in the broader context of the fight against terrorism and for American values.
snip
Second, he argues that the point of the resolution should be to "clearly endorse the use of all necessary means to eliminate the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction," preferably by Security Council-sanctioned multilateral action, but if necessary by the United States with "whatever allies will join us."

Third, Edwards suggests that in view of the Administration's spotty record on the reconstruction of Afghanistan, Congress needs to "demand" a commitment to "take real steps to win the peace" if we do go to war with Iraq, specifically by providing such assistance as is necessary to make Iraq "a democratic, tolerant state and a model for the Arab world."

And fourth, he says the resolution should place any action against Iraq in the context of "a broader strategy to strengthen American security in the Middle East," including stronger action to prevent access by terrorists to "weapons-grade materials," continuing engagement in the Israeli-Palestinian crisis, a serious effort to promote democracy not just in Iraq but "throughout the Arab world," and a new commitment to develop "a national strategy for energy security reduce our reliance on the Middle East for such critical resources."
snip
There is a progressive case for action towards Iraq, and beyond Iraq, to restore the security shattered on 9/11, and we are pleased to see Edwards, Lieberman and others making it early and often.
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=250854
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
80. I never thought the IWR vote was directly for war
It gave power to the President, to use force if Saddam was indeed a threat. I remembered, at least on CNN, the justification that the US needed the threat of force to make Saddam comply with the weapons inspections.

I disagree with the Senators who voted for the resolution, but it wasn't a vote directly for war. Bush abused the power granted to him to attack Saddam without verifying that he did have WMDs. I always had a feeling that Bush was going to attack Iraq no matter what, but that wasn't how it was sold to the country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Did any of them complain when Bush ordered the UN inspectors out of Iraq?
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 03:36 PM by IndianaGreen
Did any of them register any objections when Bush said he was ordering our troops to invade Iraq?

Did any of them say that General Shinseki was right and we needed more troops? No, they were too busy extolling the virtues of our generals for "defeating" Iraq in such short order. Read their speeches after the fall of Baghdad. They were falling all over themselves congratulating the Kommander-in-Chief and Rumsfeld.

Those that voted for IWR were too busy applauding the Kurds we bused to Firdos Square to topple Saddam's statue. None of them ever spoke about the legality and the morality of the war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
83. That is the truth. Thank you. It is TELLING. Lets do this for the Patriot Act too.
Gore said on 1/16/06 that the continued support for violations of our civil liberties was an abomination and that there should be a litmus test in 2006 for Democratic candidates in primaries-
do you support a restoration of the Constitution. Didn't happen but it's worth starting now for the Presidential candidates.

This is a much needed point. The Senators and Reps had the same information we had. We knew about the stupid metal rods, they know; we knew it was a vote for war, they knew. Enough of the bull shit. If you voted for that, you shouldn't run. Period.

Very nice work. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #83
119. Hear, hear! It's time for truth. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #119
127. And the truth shall set them a wee bit free;)
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #127
133. Oui! C'est vrai! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
84. If they were misled
... that are too stupid to lead this country

If they did it to protect their political arses, they are too narcissistic to lead this country.

I firmly believe in order to move America beyond this debacle, we need to choose a candidate that had no hand in this mess.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #84
140. Now I understand your avatar...
...politicians, narcissistic..."I'm shocked."

And "stupid" just begins to cover it. Gore didn't vote for this garbage, he opposed it. Dean too. They were ridiculed. Whose laughing now. Nobody!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
85. Its all about the Levin Amendment
There was the amdenment demanding that Bush return to congress BEFORE actually sending troops into battle.

If the supposed reason for the IWR was to get the inspectors into Iraq and ONLY for that reason (which is BS since Saddam had already agreed to the unconditional return of the inspectors before the resolution), than there was no reason to not put a proviso in the bill demanding a return to congress before actual war was declared.

Voting against the Levin Amendment is the final disqualifier for any candidate. A vote to give up congressional authority to bush on this matter is recklessly dangerous and if someone did it, they are simply not qualified to be president.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
91. As I have said before,probably every Senator voting for the war
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 04:32 PM by truedelphi
has a legal background.

The wording of that resolution was so over-ridingly negligent in spelling out what if any duties Bush had to fulfill in his role as the COmmander in Chief.

yet he was given a blank check, by which he was able to spend away the lives of the Iraqis(the people whose "freedom" he supposedly cares about) and the lives of the American servicemen and women,and the money in our Treasury (oops -it isn't really in the Treasury - it is the future income of our children and grandchildren

So somehow that IWR had a lot of teeth in it - but only for the President.

And last week's resolution against the war had no teeth in it.

How pathetic is this all? <sound of my teeth gnashing - and they are my last few remaining teeth!>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
95. Do you believe Bush can use the IWR as political cover?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
101. Even if Iraq had WMDs
and they probably did have some, because the US supplied them. Where is the proof that they intended using them against the US or any other western country, for that matter. Pakistan and India have got nuclear weapons, but they werent invaded. Saudi Arabia supplied most of the terrorists for 9/11 and they werent invaded. America has been wanting control of Iraq for years. The neocons thought that because "Desert Storm" was over within a couple of months, invading Iraq and taking control, would happen in about the same length of time. Ahmed Chalabi (probably wrong spelling) should be charged for war crimes as well as Bush and his cronies, Blair and Howard.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. such a tiny point tucked away down here near the bottom
welcome to DU, Aussie leftie !!!

Chapter 51 of the UN Charter, to which the US is a signatory nation, states that one nation has the right to attack another only when it has been attacked.

That's what international law says. But that standard has been "loosened up" over time to allow for situations where an "imminent threat" exists.

Your point hits the nail on the head. EVEN IF Saddam had WMD, does anyone really believe he was about to launch an attack on the US? That idea is way beyond absurd. Saddam was totally pinned down inside his pathetic "no fly zone". he knew his military was an empty shell. what did it take for the US troops to reach Baghdad, like 10 minutes?

and so, way down here in the "down under" (sorry) part of this thread, you've brought home the killer point: EVEN IF Saddam still had WMD, he was not a threat to the US and invading Iraq was a criminal violation of international law. Fortunately, the MAJORITY OF CONGRESSIONAL DEMOCRATS voted against the IWR.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. Thankyou for appreciating my post
Also, thankyou for the welcome. I'm not new though, I used to have the username Ausgail. My computer died, after a few months, bought a new one. I transferred over from dial-up to broadband and had to take on a new email address. Hence the change of name.

Have you ever wondered why Sadam Hussein's trial was not held in the World Court, I think a few interesting names would have been brought up. It was interesting watching old film footage where Sadam and Rumsfeld are shaking hands. Unfortunately, the Bush administration fixed that one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. i remember Ausgail.
good to see you again.

it's a funny thing about justice. the last place some want to hold trials is in the light of day. that should tell us everything we need to know.

if Saddam had been tried at the World Court, the whole bush administration would have been put on trial. can't have that now can we? the invasion of Iraq was in direct violation of the UN Charter. we tortured people. we used illegal weapons. we're occupying a sovereign country. and the whole bunch of these genocidal maniacs will probably never be tried for it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #121
128. Maybe, when we wake up on the 1st Tuesday in Nov 2008
the world might start to become a better place. Hopefully, my country might start to become a nicer place after we hold federal elections later this year. Wouldnt it be a dream come true to be able to send Bush and his cronies, Blair and Howard off to Guantanamo Bay for their crimes against humanity. Also, in Howard's case, his crimes regarding cruelty to animals for allowing live exports of sheep and cattle to the Middle East, where if they dont die in transit, they are treated atrociously on arrival. Just wanted to throw that bit in. Get it of my chest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #101
110. So it was ok for him to have them....
As long as he only used them against his own people...? Is that what you are saying?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. What I am saying
Is that the US is very selective about who they describe as tyrants. Pinoche organized for a lot of his own people to be tortured and murdered. Oh, thats right, the CIA helped to install him. Coincidentally on September 11. Sadam was not a good guy, but there are plenty of world leaders past and present that could teach him a thing or two about tyranny. It was all about the oil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. Well if your point is...
That the U.S. has not been consistent about which tyrants to decry...I fully agree...

However, there is a fundamental difference between Saddam Hussein with WMDs, and India, Pakistan and Israel with WMDs...

Iraq actually used them on at least 10 occasions, both as a weapon of warfare, and against their own civilian populations...to assume they would not use them against others would have been foolhardy IMO...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. How do you define weapon of mass destruction?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #117
120. WMD's are defined as nuclear, chemical or biological weapons...
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 11:16 PM by SaveElmer
In 1988 the Iraqi government used chemical weapons on Kurdish villages...

The worst of these was against Halabja, which killed 5000 civilians, and severely injured another 12,000..

A description of that attack is here (warning, very graphic)... http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html



And here is a complete list of known WMD use by the Iraqi government...with casualties


WMD attacks
Location WMD used Date Casualties

Haij Umran Mustard August 1983 fewer than 100 Iranian/Kurdish
Panjwin Mustard October-November 1983 3,000 Iranian/Kurdish
Majnoon Island Mustard February-March 1984 2,500 Iranians
al-Basrah Tabun March 1984 50-100 Iranians
Hawizah Marsh Mustard & Tabun March 1985 3,000 Iranians
al-Faw Mustard & Tabun February 1986 8,000 to 10,000 Iranians
Um ar-Rasas Mustard December 1986 1,000s Iranians
al-Basrah Mustard & Tabun April 1987 5,000 Iranians
Sumar/Mehran Mustard October 1987 3,000 Iranians
Halabjah Mustard March 1988 7,000s Kurdish/Iranian
al-Faw Mustard
& nerve agent April 1988 1,000s Iranians
Fish Lake Mustard
& nerve agent May 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
Majnoon Islands Mustard
& nerve agent June 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
South-central
border Mustard
& nerve agent July 1988 100s or 1,000s Iranians
an-Najaf -
Karbala area Nerve agent
& CS March 1991 Shi’a casualties not known


https://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/chap5.html

on edit: Sorry I can't get this chart to format better
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. Without meaning to sound sarcastic or stupid
what is the difference between chemical and biological weapons? Can you remember exactly when the US was selling or giving weapons to Sadam to fight against Iran? I'm not saying Sadam was a saint, but he was the same Sadam that Donald Rumsfeld was shaking hands with years before. There is genocide going on in Sudan (unfortunately they dont have the oil that Iraq has).

I think the world would be a friendlier and safer place if more people debated these issues,like we are, rather than believe everything their politicians told them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. Yeah I am not going to defend Rumsfeld or Republicans...
And I am not defending the war...

I take those Democrats that voted yes on the IWR at their word that they were doing so to provide leverage to get inspectors back into Iraq...which was needed...

There is no doubt the U.S. under Republican rule armed Iraq to the teeth in its war against Iran...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #120
125. a few points.
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 11:40 PM by welshTerrier2
first, Saddam was a bad guy. no doubt about it.

second, he did NOT have WMD and the evidence manufactured "for bush" was highly suspect. this does not mean there was proof no WMD existed but the "facts were clearly being fixed around the policy".

third, i believe we sold him or gave him most of those weapons. that's a discussion in its own right.

fourth, the US invasion of Iraq was a violation of international law per the UN Charter's Chapter 51.

fifth, this invasion was for oil and it still is.

six, bush never wanted the inspectors to run the show. he wanted to create a panic and invade. this was never about "saving the Iraqi people from a tyrant". not only is that NOT consistent with US policy elsewhere, it is just NOT the real reason bush invaded Iraq. Some have estimated that as many as 1/2 million children died because of sanctions in place while Clinton was in office. And some estimates of dead Iraqis, mostly civilians, since bush invaded have run as high as 600,000. what the US has done in Iraq is unconscionable.

seventh, before we invaded, I wrote many times on DU as did many others that bush was going to create a "power vacuum". even if a case for invasion could have been made, how stupid is it to break the "dynamic tension" between Iraq and Iran. the policy was insane from the beginning.

so, yes, Saddam was a tyrant who used WMD, mostly gas, against his own people. to do what the US has done as a response has been catastrophic for the Iraqis and catastrophic for the US.

Saddam didn't pose an "imminent threat" to the US. We had no right to invade.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. I didn't support the invasion...
I never did...so you don't have to convince me George Bush illegitimately invaded Iraq...So I agree with you on points 4,5,6,& 7

I think Saddam was a bit more than a "bad guy." Russ Feingold was right when he said "...Iraq presents a genuine threat, especially in the form of weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological, and potentially nuclear weapons. I agree that Saddam Hussein is exceptionally dangerous and brutal, if not uniquely so, as the President argues. And I support the concept of regime change."

However in October of 2002 the existence of WMDs was not in serious dispute...everyone from Russ Feingold, General Clark, Paul Wellstone and Ted Kennedy believed Iraq had them...that was not the nexus of the debate on the IWR...

That the intelligence was being fixed around a policy did not become widely known until 2003...all of the major revelations from Joseph Wilson, Richard Clarke etc came in 2003 and 2004...

I have never seen any evidence that we supplied WMDs to Iraq...I know we did arm them to the teeth with conventional weapons during their war with Iran...if you have evidence of this I would like to see it...however even if this is true, and they would have had to have been supplied under a Republican President...it still did not lessen the importance of the resumption of inspections...





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #129
130. did you support the IWR?
i assume you were opposed to it since you opposed the war but thought i would ask anyway. i'll have to get back to you on selling WMD to Saddam. I know i've read things that suggested all the mustard gas technology he had came from the US. not sure about some of the other stuff.

the one place i strongly disagree with you is about the quality of the pre-invasion intelligence. maybe i can dig up some of my old posts about this. i remember hearing all the friction between Feith's idiots and the CIA. maybe i'm not clear at this point on the exact timeframe of that information.

for me, the bottom line is that a bunch of untrustworthy oilmen were trusted. this is one of my greatest criticisms of Hillary. She said, and I quote, that she took bush "at his word". frankly, i just can't find a way to process that thought. i just can't.

that's where my views about imperialism and empire gave me what turned out to be the right instincts. could i have been wrong? of course i could have been. but i started with a belief that almost all wars are fought for commercial gain. Iraq? Oil men? Secret oil meetings? Inspectors asking for more time? No, I can't process taking bush "at his word". How could anyone say that? i just can't get there from here.

and finally, and i understand you disagree, EVEN IF I knew Saddam had WMD, absolutely knew it, I would NOT have supported the invasion. Why? because Saddam was NOT an imminent threat to the US. I did NOT find it credible that he would be stupid enough to attack us. I saw the whole charade, again, EVEN IF he did have WMD, as an excuse for bush to invade for the lucrative benefit of his oily friends. and man did they benefit. all time record profits. and now, with the new OIL LAW that no Democrats are willing to even discuss, BIG OIL is going to walk away with as much as 85% of Iraqi oil revenues for the next 30 years. when they're trying to divvy up the oil fairly among Iraq's factions so that some form of peace might be achieved, how helpful is it going to be when there's only 15% of the pie to divide?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. The point on which she was taking Bush's word...
Was in his assertion that all diplomatic efforts would be exhausted first, and that inspections would be allowed to continue to completion...

In both cases he flat out lied...

As to whether I would have voted for the IWR...I really don't know...I might have....

Scott Ritter himself has pointed out that the success inspectors did have between 1991 and 1998 was always with the legitimate threat of military action backing them up...

I really think the question was more complex, and less a black and white issue than gets kicked around this board....

Going into my decision would have been:

1. The indisputable fact that Iraq had used WMDs on many occasions, killing 100's of thousands of people...

2. That inspections had never been a success unless backed up by the threat of force...

3. The fact that no inspector had set foot in Iraq in 4 years...

4. The weight I put on George Bush's word that he would exhaust diplomatic means first, and allow inspections to complete...

5. Like Senators did at the time I would have taken very seriously the reports of the CIA

6. The opinions of people like Scott Ritter who said Iraq was not a threat to the U.S....

I do think it was very important for inspections to resume....

So...it would have been a hard call...I really am not sure how I would have voted...

The really maddening thing is, that the IWR was working...inspectors were back in doing their job before Bush short-circuited the process...

As to whether Saddam would have attacked us or not...he probably would not have...but that he would only attack his own people or his neighbors, as he had done before, would be enough for me to consider voting for the IWR to get inspections resumed...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
108. So your point is ?
We should not vote for Democrats ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
112. agree completely
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 10:34 PM by faithnotgreed
this govt had access
likeky not all the information the bush cabal had but they definitely could find out the full truth if they wanted the full truth
many outside the beltway were screaming or at least seriously questioning and a few even inside the beltway - those insiders that wanted to know and vote according to the full truth are the ones who voted no

all the rest i have no regard for as representing and interested in Truth
not dismissing them in one fell swoop as "bad" or anything else - just saying they had other motivations aside from learning what was real from what were clearly lies
and if their excuse (perhaps the least egregious) was they couldnt distinguish from what they were given - in the event of taking the nation to WAR - then they have no right being in the highest powers of govt

and i for one will not vote to promote any of them up that power chain

on edit: replaced a missing word
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
118. And there is this: This faux "Commander in Chief"...
...who was so concerned about protecting the country, was not elected; he was appointed by a rogue Supreme Court. Knowing that, whether they would openly acknowledge it or not, members of Congress went along like sheep, and I'll spend the rest of my days on this planet holding them in contempt for what they have done to this country.

Yes, I know. Forgiving *them* might be healthier for *me*, but I just can't lie to myself. They knew, and they went along.

And how anyone could look the other way and vote for a war based on evidence that people all over America, all over the world, knew in their gut was contrived is beyond me. Anyone that easily confused, that lacking in critical judgment, should be clearing brush on a farm someplace (and that alone) -- not sending young people to their early deaths; not engaging in unprovoked wars of aggression.

Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
122. It's too bad people care more about litmus tests instead of holding Bush accountable
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 11:40 PM by politicasista
It says alot about their agenda that they continue to repeat the GOP, Rove spin instead of getting behind legislation to help end the slaughter in Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
123. indeed
It was all wink-wink nudge-nudge.
They should be ashamed.
And at the very least they should apologize.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
132. This kind of post happens
Edited on Tue Feb-20-07 12:55 AM by benny05
When a group of supporters who wish their person would declare or not a candidacy...

and instead eat our own. Doesn't matter who the opposition is, they attack them in the name of General Clark.

General Clark is a great guy, but to attack others because he hasn't declared his intentions means they should focus on issues he has spoken on, instead of being "rabid" is questionable. I have the backbone to ask since he believes in relationship building and engaging others.

Clark supporters, not General Clark, really turn me and possibly some others off. It is because they seldom support others but they go on the attack on a particular candidate, and we all know who it is. Every post is made about that candidate, and it isn't a former employer's wife. I don't see them engaging us in meaningful ways, if this is General Clark's position. Otherwise, they appear to saber-rattling other candidates, which if I read General Clark's post on the DK a week ago, that is not his position either.

Why doesn't his supporters do the same?






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #132
138. I'll tell you what.....
You really don't have a clue.

Wes Clark supports others when they need it....and for you to sell Clark supporters short is really uncalled for. Hell, many of us fought to try to stop this fucking war before it started. We fought for Kerry/Edwards in 2004. We have fought for Webb, and for Massa, and for Tester, and for Lamont, and others that won, and so many deserving that didn't win..... in 2006. We've donated to VoteVets and other groups that actually "did" something to win elections other than orchestrating photo ops and blowing kisses and worrying about PR. Yes....that's right.....we fought for this country alongside others to gain a Democratic congress in 2006. Maybe you think you fought harder, but I would have to see some proof of that.

Clark is a fighter, and not just for himself. Hell, he's taken a lot of heat for a large part of his life in trying to do what was right, till you don't even know the half of it....

Wes Clark just recently took a lot of heat in warning us on Iran. You don't even know the half of what Clark had to endure just to get the Iran topic into the American conversation. Don't bother to scratch your ass...cause you'll never figure out what and how he did it...cause you're too busy turning up your nose at Clark supporters. Like we're peasants, and your something special.

And take note, that many Clark supporters are very much like Wes Clark, and your attempts to talk as though you know what Clark supporters do, is some arrogance that must be rubbing off on you from unknown source.

Maybe you should try not to throw so many stones when your house is made of glass. In fact, if I were you, I cut short the many opinions you seem to have about Clark supporters and keep them in your head where they belong.

Butcha Know.....Cause I can play that too....


Clark also voiced strong support for Democratic National Committee head Howard Dean, who has been criticized for comments attacking Republicans.

"We've got to protect our freedom and our liberty," Clark said. "I'm proud of Howard Dean. I'm proud of the Democratic party. And we're going to stand together as a party."

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050613/NEWS0201/106130013/-1/CITIZEN

What did other say at that time when Dean was under fire......?
Did they stand by Howard Dean?


Democrats alike have criticized Dean for the unnecessary harshness of his comments. Democratic senator Joe Biden distanced himself from the comments, saying that Dean “doesn’t speak for me with that kind of rhetoric and I don’t think he speaks for the majority of Democrats.”

Former senator John Edwards said that “the chairman of the DNC is not the spokesman for the Democratic Party…He’s only a voice. I don’t agree with it.”
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jun/05060807.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #132
143. Here is a list of Democrats...
that an overwhelming majority of Clark supporters routinely say positive things about: Russ Feingold, Al Gore, Denis Kucinich, and Howard Dean.

Most Clark supporters were saying positive things about Feingold before he withdrew from the 2008 race. In addition, almost all Clark supporters like Barack Obama, though Clark supporters are split on whether or not he has the experience needed to become President in 2008.

What do Wes Clark, Howard Dean, Al Gore, Russ Feingold, Denis Kucinich and Barack Obama have in common other than being prominent Democrats who either ran for and/or are considering running for President? They all warned against and opposed the invasion of Iraq.

It simply is not true that Clark supporters don't say positive things about other Democrats. We tend to say the most positive things about Democrats who were right on Iraq from the begining.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
142. Eliminating Saddam Hussein was part of Foreign Policy under Clinton
He never did it but said we should.

Your statement is so true, the people who voted for this were also the same people who agreed with Bill Clinton in the 1990's.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC