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Just facts, no flames: Democratic candidates on ABORTION

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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:20 AM
Original message
Just facts, no flames: Democratic candidates on ABORTION
In an effort to break through the fog of disinformation in this forum, the Administrators will be posting occasional "Just facts, no flames" thread topics to discuss the Democratic presidential primary candidates' positions on various issues.

Everyone who participates in this thread is REQUIRED to abide by the following rules, or else you'll get your posts deleted.

THE RULES

1. Every post must include a clear and honest disclaimer indicating which candidate or candidates you support, and which candidate or candidates you oppose.

2. Supporters and opponents of each candidate are permitted to participate, and may provide positive or negative information about any candidate.

3. Posts must be based on verifiable facts, backed up with links to credible sources. Credible sources include, but are not limited to: Candidate websites, mainstream news sources, official government records, voting records, candidate scorecards, and the like. For the purposes of this exercise, the following are not considered credible sources: extreme right-wing or left-wing publications, vanity websites, posts from blogs or message boards (unless they are by the candidate himself), extrapolation of candidate positions which are unknown, quotes that are taken out of context, and claims of "That's just the way I feel."

4. Honest questions are permitted. Disingenuous or rumor-mongering questions are not.

5. Your attitude is important. If I judge your post to be contrary to the intended spirit of this exercise, I'll delete it. If you are consumed with hatred toward a particular candidate, or toward his supporters, you probably shouldn't even try to post in this thread.

Let's try to provide some useful information here. What do we know about the candidates' promises, positions, and records on the issue of abortion?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. All the Democratic candidates support abortion rights
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 09:39 AM by IndianaGreen
It gets tricky when it comes to votes to ban specific surgical procedures used in abortions, such as the so-called "partial birth" and saline injection bans.

Conservatives have been trying to outlaw abortion by targeting specific surgical procedures and emotionalizing the issue.

I am not sure what the record of the Democratic candidates is on that. I believe the majority opposed this "A La Carte" method of banning abortion procedures, but I am not sure about Edwards.

Does anyone know?

Disclaimer: I support Dean, Kucinich, Wes Clark (he hasn't officially dropped out as of this hour).
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Edwards' position
He has a 100% rating from NARAL.

http://www.naral.org/publications/congress_record.cfm

(See page 10 of the 2002 report, for example (.pdf)).


In the interest of full disclosure: Like nearly all of the Presidential candidates he was not present for the vote on the latest bill, which might have provided the most direct answer to your question, but a NARAL spokeswoman said it accepted this schedule conflict. I believe Edwards believes that the bill will be overturned in the courts, but that is simply my opinion.

And, from http://www.johnedwards2004.com/women_families.asp

snip

"Supporting Roe vs. Wade, Fighting For a Federal Freedom of Choice Act. Edwards is a strong supporter of Roe vs. Wade and a woman's right to choose. At a January 2003 NARAL event, Edwards said he would "help lead a fight to pass a federal freedom of choice act so that your right to choose is guaranteed and protected no matter what the court does." He has voted against Republican efforts to prohibit funding for choice for federal employees, DC residents and women overseas at international family planning centers. He also voted to eliminate a ban on abortions at overseas military facilities, which would ban abortion even if the woman paid for it herself."

Finally, if you google him, the most frequent hits you will get are from conservatives bashing him for his support of women's rights.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thanks for the info... n/t
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. It appears all of the remaining candidates are pro-choice
There was some question as to Kucinich's flip-flop on the issue but I've gained some respect for the man so I'll take him at his word.
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YouMustBeKiddingMe Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Kerry's position on abortion
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 10:16 AM by YouMustBeKiddingMe
I support Kerry. I oppose Dean but would support him should be be the Democratic nominee and vote for him against Bush.

Kerry's position on abortion taken from his website:

Protect the Right to Choose

John Kerry believes that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, and their own destinies. He believes that the Constitution protects their right to choose and to make their own decisions in consultation with their doctor, their conscience, and their God. He will defend this right as President. He recently announced he will support only pro-choice judges to the Supreme Court. Kerry also believes that we should promote family planning and health plans should assure women contraceptive coverage.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/

Kerry Statements on Abortion

Partial-birth abortion ban undermine women's right to choose

Q: Do you support the ban on partial-birth abortions recently signed into law?


A: I don't support the President's law because it doesn't allow the exception for situations where the health of the woman is at risk. I believe this is a dangerous effort to undermine a woman's right to choose, which is a constitutional amendment I will always fight to protect.

Source: Concord Monitor / WashingtonPost.com on-line Q&A Nov 7, 2003

No criminalization of a woman's right to choose

The Republicans want to criminalize the right of women to choose, take us back to the days of back alleys, gag doctors and deny families the right to plan and be aware of their choices - we Democrats want to protect the constitutional right of privacy and make clear that at the center of this struggle is our commitment to have a Supreme Court that will protect the equal rights, the civil rights, and the right to choose in this nation.

Source: Keynote Speech to Massachusetts Democratic Issues Convention Jun 7, 2003

Voted NO on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions.

Vote on a motion to table an amendment that would repeal the ban on privately funded abortions at overseas military facilities.
Bill S 2549 ; vote number 2000-134 on Jun 20, 2000

Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions.

This legislation, if enacted, would ban the abortion procedure in which the physician partially delivers the fetus before completing the abortion. .
Status: Bill Passed Y)63; N)34; NV)3

Reference: Partial Birth Abortion Ban; Bill S. 1692 ; vote number 1999-340 on Oct 21, 1999

Voted NO on disallowing overseas military abortions.

The Murray amdt would have repealed current laws prohibiting overseas U.S. military hospitals and medical facilities from performing privately funded abortions for U.S. service members and their dependents.
Status: Motion to Table Agreed to Y)51; N)49

Reference: Motion to table Murray Amdt #397; Bill S. 1059 ; vote number 1999-148 on May 26, 1999

http://www.issues2000.org/Abortion.htm#John_Kerry

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. Statements from Dean
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 09:39 AM by Crisco
from a Dean supporter.

Oct 2, 2003

BURLINGTON--Today, Democratic presidential candidate Governor Howard Dean, M.D., sharply criticized the latest congressional vote on the so-called 'partial-birth abortion ban':

"As a physician, I am outraged that the House of Representatives has decided it is qualified to practice medicine. There is no such thing as 'partial birth abortion' in medical literature. But there are times when a doctor is called upon to perform a late term abortion to save a woman's life or protect her from serious injury. Today the House took a step toward making it a crime for a doctor to perform such medically necessary procedures.

"This bill will chill the practice of medicine and endanger the lives of countless women. Despite what politicians tell you, there is not an epidemic of third trimester abortions in this country. This kind of legislation serves the sole purpose of chipping away women's constitutionally protected reproductive rights and overturning Roe v. Wade."


1/22/04

LEBANON, NH--Democratic presidential candidate Governor Howard Dean, M.D., issued the following statement today to mark the anniversary of Roe v. Wade:

"Thirty one years ago, the Supreme Court recognized that American women have a constitutional right to control their own bodies. But the right to choose hangs in the balance of the 2004 election. If George W. Bush gets to appoint even one anti-choice justice to the Court, the era of safe, legal abortion in the United States will end.

"As a family doctor, a Board Member of my local Planned Parenthood and Governor of Vermont, I have worked my entire adult life to promote women's health. If elected President I will defend the right to reproductive privacy and fight to keep politics out of medicine."


Statement on reproductive freedom:

I have been a strong supporter of a woman’s right to reproductive freedom my entire life. I believe that the right to privacy is enshrined in the Constitution. As President, I would do everything in my power to preserve that right.

I have a different perspective on this issue than other politicians because of my medical training and my experience as a family doctor. I am proud to have served as a Board Member of Planned Parenthood of Northern New England. I understand women’s health, and I will defend the right of women to control decisions about their bodies.

One of the most outrageous attacks on a woman’s right to choose is the so-called Partial Birth Abortion bill. As a physician, I know that there is no such thing in the medical literature as “partial birth abortion.” But there are rare times when a doctor is called upon to perform a late-term abortion to save a woman’s life or protect her from injury. Yet the House of Representatives recently made it a federal crime for a doctor to perform such medically necessary procedures. That bill will chill the practice of medicine and endanger the health of countless women.

There is no epidemic of third trimester abortions in the United States; the procedure is so rare that we have not had one in Vermont in the past four years. But this bill is worded so insidiously that it would outlaw many second-term abortions, even before a fetus is viable. That is a direct challenge to the logic of Roe v. Wade and every other Supreme Court abortion decision in the last 30 years, including the recent case striking down a Nebraska law almost identical to the bill passed by the House.

Make no mistake -- Republicans in Congress want to challenge the Supreme Court. They want to turn back the clock 30 years. This bill is one more step in the right wing’s relentless campaign to deprive women of their constitutional right to reproductive freedom. President Bush may soon have an opportunity to nominate one or more members of the Supreme Court, and the legal rights of women hang in the balance.




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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. There may be a problem if the nominee chooses a running mate that...
is not pro-choice.

I am referring specifically to Evan Bayh, whose name has been mentioned in the media as a potential running mate for Kerry. As Governor, Bayh supported and signed a law that required pregnant women to see pictures of aborted fetuses as part of the "abortion counseling." Bayh had enough votes to sustain his veto had he chosen to veto the law.

As Senator, Bayh voted in favor of the "partial-birth" abortion ban.

So while the nominee may be pro-choice, the ticket may be hurt if someone is chosen as VP that does not support abortion rights.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. Allow me to direct the discussion a little bit...
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 09:43 AM by Skinner
I deliberately started with an issue where there is a perception of wide agreement, because I thought it might be a good starting point before we move to the more contentious issues.

We all know that the candidates claim to be pro-choice. Now let's figure out the details. Even on this issue, there are plenty of questions that I can't answer offhand...

- Do they support a ban on late-term abortion? If so, under what circumstances? What does their voting record show?

- Do they support covering abortion under Medicaid?

- Do they support parental notification?

- Do they support waiting periods?

- Would they nominate anti-choice judges to the federal bench?

- Do they support funding for international family planning?

- Have they been consistent in their position?

- Do pro-choice organizations support anyone in particular? Have they made any endorsements? What do their scorcards say?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Don't forget abortion in military hospitals!
Military hospitals and doctors have been forbidden for years from providing even family planning counseling.

This is a particularly big issue when stationed overseas!

Federal employees cannot get abortion coverage in their health insurance.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Good point.
Those are also important issues. :thumbsup:
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. More
found this on Free Republic of all places, from Kaiser family foundation statistics.

Vermont:

Requires/Enforces Waiting Period Between Receiving Information and Abortion, 2003 -- No

Parental Consent/Notification Required for Minors' Abortions, 2003 -- No

State Bans Post-Viability Abortions? -- No

State Bans So-Called "Partial Birth" Abortion? -- No

State Medicaid Funding of Abortion, 2003 -- Yes
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
10. Issues 2000 is a good source for candidates' stands on issues
Here's the link to everyone's views on abortion (based on their actual statements):

http://www.issues2000.org/Abortion.htm#Headlines
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. thanks, this is helpful.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
14. Lieberman raised the issue of changing Roe
His position was similar to the one advocated by Ruth Bader Ginsberg who was concerned that the legal basis for Roe could in the end backfire.

The issue has to do with fetal viability!

One cannot ignore the possibility that further advances in neonatal care developments will continue to push viability closer to the point of conception. Since viability in Roe marks the earliest point at which the State can impose restrictions on abortion, it would be within the realm of possibility for a State to intervene on behalf of the unborn the moment a woman first finds out she is pregnant without violating what remains of the Roe construct.

A concern over the vulnerability of Roe has prompted many prochoicers to look for other arguments that could be used to preserve the right to choose. Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee, the two attorneys that represented the plaintiffs in the Roe v. Wade case, discussed using the gender discrimination argument when they were preparing for trial. Forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term would violate her right to due process of law. The argument parallels the one used in racial discrimination cases. In her 1993 book A Question of Choice, Sarah Weddington said that she and Coffee did not emphasize the gender discrimination argument because there was a lack of precedent in 1971 (Weddington 260-261).

In a 1985 article written for the North Carolina Law Review, Ruth Bader Ginsburg criticized Roe for being based on the right to privacy rather than on the equal protection clause of the Constitution. Ginsburg argues that abortion prohibitions should have been linked to discrimination against women. The conflict, according to Ginsburg, is not "simply one between a fetus' interests and a woman's interests ...nor is the overriding issue state versus private control of a woman's body for a span of nine months. Also in the balance is a woman's autonomous charge of her full life's course" and "her ability to stand in relation to man, society, and the state as an independent, self-sustaining, equal citizen" (Pojman 109).

Works Cited

Pojman, Louis, and Beckwith, Francis, eds. The Abortion Controversy: 25 Years After Roe v. Wade. Belmont: Wadsworth, 1998.

Weddington, Sarah. A Question of Choice. New York: Penguin Books, 1993.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Right to privacy--is it viable?
Edited on Wed Feb-11-04 05:52 PM by gottaB
I'll take the right to privacy as outlined by Blackmun.

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. The detriment that the State would impose upon the pregnant woman by denying this choice altogether is apparent. Specific and direct harm medically diagnosable even in early pregnancy may be involved. Maternity, or additional offspring, may force upon the woman a distressful life and future. Psychological harm may be imminent. Mental and physical health may be taxed by child care. There is also the distress, for all concerned, associated with the unwanted child, and there is the problem of bringing a child into a family already unable, psychologically and otherwise, to care for it. In other cases, as in this one, the additional difficulties and continuing stigma of unwed motherhood may be involved. All these are factors the woman and her responsible physician necessarily will consider in consultation.

On the basis of elements such as these, appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The <410 U.S. 113, 154> Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) (vaccination); Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927) (sterilization).

We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.

Roe v. Wade


The first section of the Fourteenth Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

According to the law as outlined by Blackmun, the right to privacy is not absolute, which is why due process comes into play. It is also the reason why the equal protection clause is relevant. I think even if you were to advance an equal protection argument, you would still need an essential liberty like a right to privacy. Ginsburg's argument, as you've presented it, doesn't fully make sense to me. If you can say that a woman has a right to personal autonomy and equal treatment under the law, at what point does a fetus also enjoy those rights, if not at the point of viability? Why isn't that an issue? Because a fetus isn't yet a born citizen? Well, who knows what science will allow us to do with the concept of naturalization.

Is that something to be feared? You say that "it would be within the realm of possibility for a State to intervene on behalf of the unborn the moment a woman first finds out she is pregnant without violating what remains of the Roe construct." Is that such a bad thing? That doesn't imply a violation of due process, or an endagerment of the health or safety of a woman, or any such. Imagine a morning-after pill that terminated a pregnancy without destroying the embryo. Plop the little nipper in a petrie dish, drop it off at the Ford Clinic on your way to the office, and you're done. Would that be an *unreasonable* restraint on personal liberty? An undue burden?

I happen to agree with much of what Lieberman had to say. He claims he did not say Roe v. Wade needed to be revisited ( see this AP story). I also strongly disagree with Dean's comments, as reported:

Democratic candidate Howard Dean said yesterady that Lieberman's comments indicated he is "very much off base and doesn't understand the science."

"I think Joe makes the mistake that Republicans do, insinuating himself in the doctor-patient relationship," Dean said in an interview with the Associated Press.

But look at Blackmun's decision (Op cit.). He looks at the history of abortion as a medical procedure, consults AMA opinions, and finds that advancements in medical science have made abortion a relatively safe procedure. Would Dr. Dean consider that to be an insinuation? He probably would. Arguably it is. Personally, though, if I had to choose between being governed by laws and be governed by doctors of medicine, I'd choose law.

John Kerry, by contrast, unreservedly supports the right to privacy as articulated by Justice Blackmun. For instance, during the Washington Post/Concord Monitor online Q and A, he was asked about the pba vote (which he missed). Kerry took a strong stand based on protecting our civil rights.

I don't support the President's law because it doesn't allow the exception for situations where the health of the woman is at risk. I believe this is a dangerous effort to undermine a woman's right to choose, which is a constitutional amendment I will always fight to protect.

I believe he meant "constitutional right" and was surely thinking of the Fourteenth Amendment, which guarantees that right.

And think of this. Justice Steven's dissent in Bowers was based on the 14th amendment's Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and that analysis informed Justice Kennedy's opinion in Lawrence v. Texas.

There's a lot more at stake in this debate than a woman's right to abort a fetus. It *is* about the right to privacy, and not being denied personal liberties without due process, and having equal protection under the law.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. Oh, well.
It was worth a try, I guess.

Thanks to everyone who participated.
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YouMustBeKiddingMe Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
16. kick
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. Most DUers are at work at this time of the day
So here is a kick for the afternoon crowd.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. DK as per the site posted above
At least one of these votes he has reversed (PBA) however some of the others still stand if this legislation passed.


Voted YES on banning human cloning, including medical research.
Vote to prohibit human cloning for either medical research or reproductive purposes. The bill would make it illegal to perform, attempt or participate in human cloning. It also would ban shipping or importing cloned embryos or products made from them.
Bill HR 2505 ; vote number 2001-304 on Jul 31, 2001

Voted YES on banning Family Planning funding in US aid abroad.
Vote to adopt an amendment that would remove language reversing President Bush's restrictions on funding to family planning groups that provide abortion services, counseling or advocacy.
Reference: Amendment sponsored by Hyde, R-IL; Bill HR 1646 ; vote number 2001-115 on May 16, 2001

Voted YES on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes.
Vote to pass a bill that would make it a federal crime to harm a fetus while committing any of 68 federal offenses or a crime under military law. Abortion doctors and women whose own actions harmed their fetuses would be exempt.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Graham, R-SC; Bill HR 503 ; vote number 2001-89 on Apr 26, 2001

Voted YES on banning partial-birth abortions.
HR 3660 would ban doctors from performing the abortion procedure called "dilation and extraction" . The measure would allow the procedure only if the life of the woman is at risk.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Canady, R-FL; Bill HR 3660 ; vote number 2000-104 on Apr 5, 2000

Voted YES on barring transporting minors to get an abortion.
The Child Custody Protection Act makes it a federal crime to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of obtaining an abortion.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Ros-Lehtinen, R-FL; Bill HR 1218 ; vote number 1999-261 on Jun 30, 1999


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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. Why Not Pin This?
for a day or two?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. kick
:kick:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-04 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. when can we discuss free trade? n/t
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