So it's going to be Kerry... I'm depressed... help...

[Strapping Buck]

Once again, the Democrat Party has left us out in the cold and are going to nominate a Republican-Lite candidate. Guess they have to appeal to all those union/hunter/flannel shirt Democrats in the wasteland of the red states. And just watch. As soon as the nomination is official, Kerry will move even more to the center-- a center that has moved more and more to right over the past 20 years.

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but look at what we might get in Kerry: someone who not only voted to give * the authority to attack Iraq-- either because he actually did believe it was necessary or because he was afraid to say what he really believed and be unpopular to the masses, neither of which is a good reason. Now, when a historic moment in the cause for gay marriage happens in his home state, a truly liberal and progressive moment, Kerry-- supposedly an advocate of gay-rights throughout his career-- announces to the whole world that he believes 'marriage' should be between a man and a woman. Gee, isn't that the same thing * says?

I'm sorry, I'm just so tired of this party taking us, its core, for granted at the national level. And I'm not saying Dean was the answer. I just don't know why they are so afraid of running a truly liberal, progressive campaign. Did you ever notice how when one of these guys is labeled a "liberal", they always try to explain it away--as if they're ashamed of the word? It's already beginning with Kerry.

[Atlant]

1. There are other choices than "R" or "D".

And this might be a meaningful year in which to make one of those
other choices.

Atlant

[RetroLounge]

It's been 24 years since I voted Third Party

it might be time again...

[Atlant]

17. Another John Anderson voter?

(In 1980, NH was going for Ronald Raygun in a landslide, so
there was no harm in my voting for J.A.)

Atlant

[IndianaGreen]

2. Charles Foster Kane

The name of the main character in Orson Welles's masterpiece Citizen Kane, a man that by his own account could have been great, but compromised his ideals for the pursuit of his ambitions.


Orson Welles
(Citizen Kane)

[OKNancy]

3. Democrats don't write "Democrat party"

It's Democratic party.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enraged_Ape]

10. Nice catch, Nancy

Rest assured that I will vote for freaking Ron Palillo of "Welcome Back, Kotter" fame if he should be the "Democrat" nominee. I haven't spoken to a single member of the Democratic party who feels differently. We will do--must do--anything to send the worthless clown prince who stole his way into the White House packing back to the pig farm in Crawford.

[Atlant]

14. You have now (spoken to a Democrat who won't be voting "D").

> I haven't spoken to a single member of the Democratic party who
> feels differently.

You have now (spoken to a Democrat who won't be voting "D").

I'm a registered Democrat, been a member of my local City Democratic
Committee, been a delegate at my State Democratic Convention, and have
been a major donor to quite a few Democratic political candidates. (If
you doubt any of this, feel free to look me up on Open Secrets;
there's enough info right here in this post to find me.)

But the odds are very high that I'll be voting "further left" of
the Democrats in November because I won't support any candidate
who supported and enabled George Bush in his ill-informed rush
to a failed "war".

Sorry.

Atlant

[Enraged_Ape]

20. Hell, don't be sorry. I'm sorry if you really feel we need...

another four years of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft. I'm sorry if you don't feel that any of the front-running Dems are better than any of the hardcore criminals currently occupying the White House. My candidate was Dean, but if he doesn't get the nomination, you'll see me waving a Kerry flag. No problem.

I really like Dennis Kucinich. He's done so much to get issues out on the table. But if you think he ever had a realistic chance of getting elected President, against the continual grind and whine of the Republican 24/7/365 propaganda machine, I'd like to know what color the sky is on your world.

Congratulations on being the first bonafide Dem to tell me what you did. I believe you really feel that way. All I can say is thank the Goddess that you are in the slim minority.

[Atlant]

38. We'll know on Wednesday, November 3rd.

> All I can say is thank the Goddess that you are in the slim minority.

We'll know on Wednesday, November 3rd how small a minority I represent.

Atlant

[Tinoire]

37. Surely you gest. There are Dems out in the street who are saying they

will not participate in this charade- Dems who never even heard of DU.

Some of the delusions are frightening. The DLC never learns and keeps repeating their little mantra that people have no other choice.
2000 & 2002 should have shown them how people feel about their coercive little political games.

[Loonman]

4. You can always vote third party

Which will result in 4 more years of Bush.

[Atlant]

6. I never knew my vote was so powerful!

Maybe the Democrats should have paid more attention to my words.

Atlant

[polpilot]

9. Pro-war, establishment DLC doesn't CARE what you want. DLC site will

confirm this. THIRD PARTY NOW!! The Democracy Party!!

Dean '04...

[library_max]

22. You're kidding, right?

"Maybe the Democrats should have paid more attention to my words."

Let me explain to you how elections work. Millions of people vote. The way the American system works (winner-take-all), there are only going to be two viable candidates in any presidential election: the Republican nominee and the Democratic nominee. Those two are going to do all they can to appeal to as many voters as they can. The one who appeals to the most voters in the most states (since the Electoral College works by state, it's foolish to ignore states outside your "base" region) will win.

Now this may surprise you, but millions of voters have millions of opinions and concerns and values and stands on the issues. Do the math - two candidates, millions of voters. Obviously, neither candidate is going to be able to appeal to any significant number of voters on a retail level, accommodating their every (or even almost every) wish. In fact, the farther out to the edges of the political mainstream a voter is, the less likely he is to be accommodated by either candidate, at least in the campaign itself.

All of which means that voting is a choice between alternatives. It is not the search for the perfect candidate, because in the real election you only get to pick from two. You can vote third party or write in a name if you want, but you might as well write in Donald Duck for all the difference it's going to make. You are simply opting out of the process. You are saying that your vote shouldn't count and won't count. Any practical politician will shrug and say that your vote is unattainable anyway, because you won't accommodate yourself to politics as it actually exists.

[Atlant]

40. Somewhere, way back in History, some poor Whig probably said...

Somewhere, way back in History, some poor Whig probably said...

"Let me explain to you how elections work. Thousands of people vote.
The way the American system works (winner-take-all), there are only
going to be two viable candidates in any presidential election: the
Whig nominee and the Democratic nominee."

Change comes, although sometimes it takes far too long and is far
too painful. But it comes. Ask any Whig.

Atlant

[AffirmativeReaction]

5. You mean all of those Americans?

"Guess they have to appeal to all those union/hunter/flannel shirt Democrats in the wasteland of the red states."

The wasteland of the red states? What kind of elitist bullshit is that?

[Strapping Buck]

11. Call it what you will...

These are people who guzzle cheap beer, shoot animals, prrr-aise the Lord-ah, and think America can do no wrong. They're one concession to the autoworkers union away from voting proudly for repukes.

Now they have every right to their choices in life-- I'm not arguing they don't. But ask yourself this: why does the Democratic Party, at the national level, care more about this crowd than about us?

[parkening]

23. Most candidates ignore their core

in their campaigns. They know they've got the vast majority of their core's votes in the bag. It's undecideds and swing voters that the candidates will try to bring into the fold. Don't take it personally when your candidate ignores you. Like Al Sharpton comparing the black vote to the Dem party's mistress. The fact remains that, traditionally, the black vote goes overwhelmingly to the Dem candidates. There is only so much time to convince the unconvinced, so the candidates can safely ignore the core constituency without much risk of losing their support and concentrate on swaying the outliers. It's just politics.

[AffirmativeReaction]

28. That would be funny if it wasn't so bigoted

"These are people who guzzle cheap beer, shoot animals, prrr-aise the Lord-ah, and think America can do no wrong. They're one concession to the autoworkers union away from voting proudly for repukes."

So because the electoral votes went to Bush, everyone in every one of the states is a beer guzzling, gun totin', blindly patriotic religous zealot? Wow, that's quite an enlightened perspective you have there. I suppose the blue states are the only areas of the country that have museums, universities, symphonies, or other trappings of superiority (or whatever you care to call it).

By contrast, I imagine all the people in the utopias of the blue states have evolved to a higher level of consciousness, of vastly superior intelligence, and know what is best for all of America, if not the world? I thought Democrats disliked it when Republicans put people into stereotypical categories. Is that not what you have done?


*Grammar edit*

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strapping Buck]

13. Reality did...

Exactly how many electoral votes do you think any modern-day Democrat would get without the east and west coast states and large metropolitan areas where the vast majority of their populations identify themselves as liberal to very liberal?

[lucidmadman]

24. Yes...reality...yes....

...reality is it's a 45/45% country. The fight is for the other 10%. That's the reality. I am West Coast urban but I've learned to play with others...

[arendt]

15. Don't be depressed. Be angry, and use it to organize INSIDE the...

Democratic Party.

As I have said many times, winner-take-all elections enforce
TWO party politics. Third parties are suicide under US election
rules.

So, as long as their are non-DLC candidates still in the race,

USE THOSE CANDIDATES TO RECRUIT LOCAL GRASSROOTS
SUPPORTS.

Find your friends and organize, organize, organize.

When else can you find an excuse to cold call fellow Dems
and find out if they are on your side?

You asked for help, that is what this is.

arendt

[Strapping Buck]

31. Thanks.

And I know this is the right thing to do. I suppose, more than anything, I'm just venting this morning.

[library_max]

16. You keep saying "we" and "us."

I gotta ask, who exactly is it who appointed you to speak for them? You are not, personally, the core of the Democratic Party.

If you want to feel better about Kerry, check out his website, www.johnkerry.com or his voting record forum.johnkerry.com//index.php?s=1e82532d07047182150cf78362ed9683&showtopic=215

Candidates don't generally govern as they campaign. Has Bush been a uniter not a divider? Don't worry so much about the campaign. Kerry's record demonstrates that he'll be strongly on our side once in office.

[Strapping Buck]

32. Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Woodstock]

18. Our only hope is for the nominee to give Bush hell

If Kerry won't do it, we must make our strength known. I hope the grassroots of all the other candidates - particularly Dean, Clark, and Kucinich (who have been the most passionately involved grassroots operations) - will band together and demand that Kerry stand up for the people.

No Tommy D. Mouse style of challenging Bush. No Joe Lieberman wishy washy aren't the Republicans sweet baloney. And no Ivory Tower looking down the nose and thinking that will do the trick.

We want full fledged in your face give Bush - and his rubber stamp Republicans - hell. All the anti-American, unconstitutional, callously destructive and deadly, and yes, insanely stupid things Bush has done call for nothing less.

[atre]

19. Say what?

"Guess they have to appeal to all those union/hunter/flannel shirt Democrats in the wasteland of the red states."

Name me one red state whose voters would be drawn to Kerry. If you wanted the red states, Kerry is probably the worst candidate (of the front-runners).

[Rich Hunt]

27. these people are not the problem

Whoever these 'union / hunter / flannel shirt' Dems are, they're not the problem.

Makes me wanna break out the flannel.

[Strapping Buck]

34. okay

Missouri

[oc2002]

21. look at it this way...

Is it realy Kerry's fault?

Just look at how the media did a hatchet job on Dean, they replayed the 'scream' over 1000x in one week! They characterised him as 'angry' and labeled him a Liberal.

Why do you think Kerry is running away with victory after victory? Is it because the Kerry campaign has a secrete deal with the DLC? Or more likely the DLC made an example of Dean to any upstarts of who realy controls the DNC?

Bitter? You bet. Is it Kerry's fault, no. Do whatever you feel is right in November, I sure wont tell you anything is better than Bush, because that is the biggest lie the DLC is propagating.

[Woodstock]

25. It's Kerry's fault if he doesn't FIGHT

We need a fighter. I'm not saying scream and shout. I'm not saying mean and dirty. I'm saying FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS! Take off the gloves and say it like it is, without worrying about special interests or worrying about having to go back to Congress with hat in hand afterwards. No holds barred, all out attack on Bush's DISASTROUS policies. That's what I DEMAND of the nominee. If Kerry wants me, he has to give Bush hell.

[oc2002]

35. Kerry cant fight Bush because he supported HIM!

You wont see Kerry attacking Bush now or in November. He was an enabler of the Bush Preemption doctrine, Kerry did not say a peep against the war until Dean showed up.

Bah! to heck with it all. whats the use?

[Rich Hunt]

26. Here is an article that clarifies what's going on

I dislike Kerry. I am ABB, and won't vote third party. These people I am linking to are not ABB. I disagree with that strategy but I think we should go into ABB with our eyes open. Too often, Democrats willfully shut their eyes:

http://www.pressaction.com/pablog/archives/001294.html#001294

BTW, I really, really hate how the so-called "New Democrats" are abusing the terms 'liberal' and 'progressive'.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. Hmmmm

You talk about the ABB people as though they are a movement. They are not. They are organized around a negative, and once their negative target disappears so will they.
If Kerry is elected, as he may be, expect meaningful effective protest to be muted nearly to silence. He is a corporate creature,a New Democrat as you say, and he will stand four square for the status quo.
God help us.

Posted by: marjie at February 11, 2004 09:12 AM

[saltpoint]

I'm not against what you say --

-- but the race is down to Kerry and Edwards essentially. I'm to the left of Kucinich, just for the record, but Kerry won primaries and caucuses fair and square. That's the system; I accept it.

With another 4 years, the Right will have more Scalias on the Court and will roll back every liberty we have. I prefer to live in most Democrats' America than in most Republicans' America. We ordered the grouper, they brought us the cod, but either is superior to the slimey eel the Republicans are serving.

Bush has to go in November and we need all of us pulling together to make it happen.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[IndianaGreen]

33. I love you GrovelBot

You are so... GREEN!

[TreasonousBastard]

30. Well, gee...

maybe it's because the last time a "liberal" won was Johnson when "conservative was a dirty word.

And look what happened to him.

Carter wasn't all that "liberal" but they labelled him liberal and weak, and he was history.

They tried to label Clinton a "liberal" but everyone knew he really wasn't. He stayed in office for two terms and through the ridiculous impeachment effort because everyone knew he was doing the job running the country, and ideology be damned.

The nationwide voting population does seem to be leaning a bit conservative, and anyone running has to somehow appeal to well over 60 million voters to get the electoral votes needed. Maybe a lot more this time around. Very few people out there are really looking for either a left or right wingnut. They are looking for someone they can trust to get the job done.

Shrub's lost a lot of trust and support from moderately conservative voters, and we have to give them someone they can be comfortable with.
First, we gotta win, then we can try to pull the party toward the left.

[MoonAndSun]

39. I hope that Dean and maybe even Clark will be a force for change.

I was hoping that Clark would stay in the race until the convention and help Dean and DK make a change within the party. I am sorry he has left.

I will continue to support Dean until the end, wherever that leads.

[Moderator]

41. locked

inflamatory.