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So far, 17 DUers said Bill Clinton did not side with Bush and cheerlead war with Iraq.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:01 PM
Original message
So far, 17 DUers said Bill Clinton did not side with Bush and cheerlead war with Iraq.
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 02:31 PM by blm
Unfortunately, none of the 17 provided information that supported their vote that Clinton did NOT act as cheerleader on Bush's military positions on Iraq back in 2002, 2004 and 2006.

So, those who voted that Clinton did NOT support Bush on his military decisions, please help the rest of us with the information that INFORMED you that Clinton was NOT siding with Bush on his military decisions in a way that benefitted him.

IN CLINTON'S OWN WORDS:


Clinton defends successor's push for war
Says Bush 'couldn't responsibly ignore' chance Iraq had WMDs

Wednesday, June 23, 2004 Posted: 7:55 AM EDT (1155 GMT)




(CNN) -- Former President Clinton has revealed that he continues to support President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq but chastised the administration over the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

Noting that Bush had to be "reeling" in the wake of the attacks of September 11, 2001, Clinton said Bush's first priority was to keep al Qaeda and other terrorist networks from obtaining "chemical and biological weapons or small amounts of fissile material."

"That's why I supported the Iraq thing. There was a lot of stuff unaccounted for," Clinton said in reference to Iraq and the fact that U.N. weapons inspectors left the country in 1998.
>>>>>>
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Lefty-Taylor Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Those apologists will have trouble finding the proof that you're asking for. Clinton backed Bush.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. I have an article from Wapo - sept 2002 - but no link:
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 02:15 PM by The Count
Clinton leads the revolt against the war

> Mr Clinton also warned that a strike against Saddam would
> strip the Iraqi leader of any incentive to hold off using
> chemical and biological weapons. He said: "Saddam Hussein
> is not a good man by our definition. There is no question
> that he has significant stocks of chemical and biological
> agents.
>
> "I think we have to assume that if he knows we're coming,
> he'll do everything he can to use them. He has maximum
> incentive not to use the stuff. If we go in, he has
> maximum incentive to use it because he knows he's going
> to lose. That's a risk and it's an issue the President-has
> to address."

I had many more in my archives, but smartgroups folded so I lost them.

found a link - non-working from another source
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/top_story.html?in_review_id=688939&in\
_review_text_id=661436
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Leads revolt?? rotfl
This is hysterical. And your link is broken.

June 2002. Clinton was his regular wishy-washy triangulating self. He COULD have pointed out the obvious about the WMD and the 1998 bombing, and fought vigorously against the war. He just DIDN'T. If he were so anti-war, don't you suppose Howard Dean would have quoted him???

"The problem he presents to the world is that he has laboratories working to produce chemical and biological weapons. And they would be working to produce nuclear weapons if they had any weapons grade plutonium. We know that from the people who have defected, we know that from what he's done in the past. We launched a military operation in 1998, after he threw the inspectors out in an attempt to destroy as many of those facilitates as possible. So would it be a good idea if he weren't there? And were replaced by someone committed to a responsible course with regard to weapons of mass destruction? Yes. Would it be a good idea if the people of Iraq weren't siding with him, since he's a murderer and a thug? Yes. Should we unilaterally attack him? Well, that depends. And you may want to ask me more about that, and I'll try to weave that into my remarks later on."


http://www.cfr.org/publication/4620/our_shared_future.html
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. President Clinton: Get Bin Laden Before Pursuing Saddam
President Clinton: Get Bin Laden Before Pursuing Saddam
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAHEQECR5D.html

SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) - Former President Clinton urged the
Bush administration
Thursday to finish the job with Osama bin Laden before taking
on Iraq.

"Saddam Hussein didn't kill 3,100 people on Sept. 11," he said.
"Osama bin Laden
did, and as far as we know he's still alive."

Clinton, speaking at a fund-raiser for Rep. Loretta Sanchez,
D-Calif., said he
supported President Bush's efforts in Afghanistan, including
military actions and
support of the Afghan government.
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Lefty-Taylor Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh, I thought we talking about Hillary Clinton, not Bill. That's interesting that I assume that. We
KNOW that Sen. Clinton supported Bush and the war.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. It's one of those pay-back threads from bitter kerry fans. All Clintons are game
I do not support Hillary - but those were the links I saved at the time for freepers. Funny I get to use them here....Suddenly Kerry becomes that anti-war symbol, and edwards, WHO SPONSORED IWR, is a wittle victim of the big Clenis...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. And then he PUBLICALLY sided with Bush's DECISION to go to war.
And PROUDLY said he supported Bush and defended him to the left even in June 2004.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. My vision for peace
http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,788135,00.html
My vision for peace
Third, we must constrain the production
and distribution of chemical,
biological, and small-scale nuclear
weapons. We know that Saddam Hussein
is a continuing concern because his
laboratories are busy. His military is
much weaker than it was at the time of
the Persian Gulf War, but the threat
of his labs is real. It is not as
immediate as the need to restart the Middle
East peace process and stop the violence
there, and it may not require an
invasion, but it must be addressed.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. And then he PUBLICALLY sided with Bush's to go to war.
And cheerleaded it through the next 4 years.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Not unlike Kerry. And Edwards. So, your point is?
You were trying to get some facts or just randomly hit hoping no one would bring counter-arguments?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Where?
Where did Kerry back Bush's war?
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Where he voted for IWR and said he would have even knowing no WMD were
there. That's all the backing W ever needed. The differences between kerry, Edwards, Hillary - only visible to you. Not to history, people who died.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That isn't what he said
and you know it. Try again.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. I don't have to try anything. History is to judge him and all cowards who allowed
people to die needlessly to further their own careers.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. you are correct, sir
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. No. Kerry was AGAINST Bush's decision to go to war BECAUSE weapon inspections and diplomacy were
working. Clinton sided with Bush's DECISION to go to war and defended Bush on that decision even as Kerry was campaigning against Bush's DECISION and for using misleading evidence.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Hill "campaigned" "against Bush's use of IWR to actually go to war - her
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 03:42 PM by papau
Oct 2 2002 IWR speech highlights - and total speech - are below:

Highlights:

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.

I believe international support and legitimacy are crucial. After shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable. While the military outcome is not in doubt, should we put troops on the ground, there is still the matter of Saddam Hussein's biological and chemical weapons. Today he has maximum incentive not to use them or give them away. If he did either, the world would demand his immediate removal. Once the battle is joined, however, with the outcome certain, he will have maximum incentive to use weapons of mass destruction and to give what he can't use to terrorists who can torment us with them long after he is gone. We cannot be paralyzed by this possibility, but we would be foolish to ignore it. And according to recent reports, the CIA agrees with this analysis. A world united in sharing the risk at least would make this occurrence less likely and more bearable and would be far more likely to share with us the considerable burden of rebuilding a secure and peaceful post-Saddam Iraq.

President Bush's speech in Cincinnati and the changes in policy that have come forth since the Administration began broaching this issue some weeks ago have made my vote easier. Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.


My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.


===========================================================================



http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=233783

October 10, 2002

Floor Speech of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq

As Delivered

Today we are asked whether to give the President of the United States authority to use force in Iraq should diplomatic efforts fail to dismantle Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons and his nuclear program.

I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

In 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, losing the support of the United States. The first President Bush assembled a global coalition, including many Arab states, and threw Saddam out after forty-three days of bombing and a hundred hours of ground operations. The U.S.-led coalition then withdrew, leaving the Kurds and the Shiites, who had risen against Saddam Hussein at our urging, to Saddam's revenge.

As a condition for ending the conflict, the United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.

In 1998, Saddam Hussein pressured the United Nations to lift the sanctions by threatening to stop all cooperation with the inspectors. In an attempt to resolve the situation, the UN, unwisely in my view, agreed to put limits on inspections of designated "sovereign sites" including the so-called presidential palaces, which in reality were huge compounds well suited to hold weapons labs, stocks, and records which Saddam Hussein was required by UN resolution to turn over. When Saddam blocked the inspection process, the inspectors left. As a result, President Clinton, with the British and others, ordered an intensive four-day air assault, Operation Desert Fox, on known and suspected weapons of mass destruction sites and other military targets.

In 1998, the United States also changed its underlying policy toward Iraq from containment to regime change and began to examine options to effect such a change, including support for Iraqi opposition leaders within the country and abroad.

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.

Now this much is undisputed. The open questions are: what should we do about it? How, when, and with whom?

Some people favor attacking Saddam Hussein now, with any allies we can muster, in the belief that one more round of weapons inspections would not produce the required disarmament, and that deposing Saddam would be a positive good for the Iraqi people and would create the possibility of a secular democratic state in the Middle East, one which could perhaps move the entire region toward democratic reform.

This view has appeal to some, because it would assure disarmament; because it would right old wrongs after our abandonment of the Shiites and Kurds in 1991, and our support for Saddam Hussein in the 1980's when he was using chemical weapons and terrorizing his people; and because it would give the Iraqi people a chance to build a future in freedom.

However, this course is fraught with danger. We and our NATO allies did not depose Mr. Milosevic, who was responsible for more than a quarter of a million people being killed in the 1990s. Instead, by stopping his aggression in Bosnia and Kosovo, and keeping on the tough sanctions, we created the conditions in which his own people threw him out and led to his being in the dock being tried for war crimes as we speak.

If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.

Others argue that we should work through the United Nations and should only resort to force if and when the United Nations Security Council approves it. This too has great appeal for different reasons. The UN deserves our support. Whenever possible we should work through it and strengthen it, for it enables the world to share the risks and burdens of global security and when it acts, it confers a legitimacy that increases the likelihood of long-term success. The UN can help lead the world into a new era of global cooperation and the United States should support that goal.

But there are problems with this approach as well. The United Nations is an organization that is still growing and maturing. It often lacks the cohesion to enforce its own mandates. And when Security Council members use the veto, on occasion, for reasons of narrow-minded interests, it cannot act. In Kosovo, the Russians did not approve NATO military action because of political, ethnic, and religious ties to the Serbs. The United States therefore could not obtain a Security Council resolution in favor of the action necessary to stop the dislocation and ethnic cleansing of more than a million Kosovar Albanians. However, most of the world was with us because there was a genuine emergency with thousands dead and a million driven from their homes. As soon as the American-led conflict was over, Russia joined the peacekeeping effort that is still underway.

In the case of Iraq, recent comments indicate that one or two Security Council members might never approve force against Saddam Hussein until he has actually used chemical, biological, or God forbid, nuclear weapons.

So, Mr. President, the question is how do we do our best to both defuse the real threat that Saddam Hussein poses to his people, to the region, including Israel, to the United States, to the world, and at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations?

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.

If we try and fail to get a resolution that simply, but forcefully, calls for Saddam's compliance with unlimited inspections, those who oppose even that will be in an indefensible position. And, we will still have more support and legitimacy than if we insist now on a resolution that includes authorizing military action and other requirements giving some nations superficially legitimate reasons to oppose any Security Council action. They will say we never wanted a resolution at all and that we only support the United Nations when it does exactly what we want.


Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

And perhaps my decision is influenced by my eight years of experience on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue in the White House watching my husband deal with serious challenges to our nation. I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war. Secondly, I want to insure that Saddam Hussein makes no mistake about our national unity and for our support for the President's efforts to wage America's war against terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. And thirdly, I want the men and women in our Armed Forces to know that if they should be called upon to act against Iraq, our country will stand resolutely behind them.

My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections.

And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.

Thank you, Mr. President.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I know what she said then, and I agree - BUT THEN she sided with Bush AFTERWARDS.
And STAYED closer to Bush on military issues than she or Bill did with Kerry, including when Kerry called for Rumsfeld to go THREE TIMES, and neither Clinton would back him up. Hillary called for Rumsfeld to go FINALLY in 2006. Did she not think he needed to go before then, even as she now claims she saw their actions as incompetent from the beginning?

If she believed that they were incompetent then why did she stay close to Bush on his military decisions even when the Dem nominee was campaigning AGAINST many of those decisions?
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I need links to the write-ups of the "stay close" moments post 02 - as my
memory sucks all too often - and this seems to be one of those times.

I recall my calling on her to say something - and her saying nothing - but that is not quite the same as "siding with Bush"

Did I miss something? Any links?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. That's exactly what Bush was doing in 2002
Wishy-washy muddled talk about how the IWR was not a vote for war but a vote to keep the peace, that's what Bush said in 2002 as well. She was doing exactly the same thing as Bush. Her and Bill were not strong advocates against war in 2002. She gave a mushy speech that left her wiggle room to go either way, and when push came to shove, she did not stand up against the war and neither did Bill.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Indeed in 04 when asked about Bush's WMD stories she confirmed that same stories were heard in Bill'
administration

The interviewer did not go into weak level of intel re stories with Bill, and suddenly strong level of intel with Bush, but did ask her if she should have used her inside knowledge to shoot down the IWR, and she reminded him that her inside knowledge consisted of hearing the same stories that Bush claimed were now proven.

Indeed as you say, neither Hill or Bill spoke against the veracity of the Bush stories in 02 and 03 because they had heard those same stories back when they were only "weak" intel - not confirmed enough to act on.

And indeed, your point is well taken - meaning I agree with it - :-) in that I don't see either as "anti-war" in the sense of a Father Drinan or Senator McCarthy or Senator George McGovern.

But I also do not see either Hill or Bill as pro-war in the sense of a Bush or Cheney or a neo-con.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bush didn't need any cheerleaders. There were plenty of
those outside the Democratic party. I don't recall Clinton being a big supporter of invasion. Like everyone else, Edwards, Bayh, Kerry, Schumer, Biden, Gephardt, and Reid -- she was boxed into a corner and did what was considered by many at the time to be the prudent thing -- to approve the Iraq War Resolution. At the time, one of the major selling points of the IRW was that Bush needed it to show that he had America behind him when he took his case to the UN. To forget the nuances underlying the vote for the IRW is to paint a false picture of what really happened.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. Who leads the Dem Party
That's what this goes to. Voting in October was definitely a Dem Party strategy. Whose? For what reasons? What did the Clinton people tell other Dems about WMD? Is Edwards telling the truth - he never trusted Bush, he trusted the Clinton people? Is that important when we are picking a President? Why didn't either Clinton stand up and give a prime time speech against this war if they really believed it was a tragic mistake? Who else has the power to do this besides ex-Presidents?

And NOW the Hillary supporters want us to believe she was a victim of Bush's lies, like everybody else. Puhleeze. She is NOT like every other Senator, she is the wife of an ex-President. Completely different, more intel, more access, can go on national TV any time she wants.

That's why this matters.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. I agree with that part - but who cheerleaded Bush's DECISION to go to war?
That decision is separate from IWR. As IWR would have PREVENTED war with any other president implementing it.

Once Bush went in, Clintons stayed closer to him on his military decisions than they did most Dems, even the Dem nominee in 2004 who was campaigning AGAINST Bush's military decisions.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Here's a link:
<http://saveelmer.com/?p=10>

"I had intended to go further in this entry, with a more detailed look at the question of preemptive war and whether these twenty-eight Senators were voting to endorse that concept. However, I believe I have laid out the reasons most of these Senators voted the way they did, as a way to get inspectors back into Iraq to avoid, not initiate military conflict. Given this it is clear that none were voting to endorse the concept of preemptive war. This is made explicit in their floor statements as well. Virtually every one noted specifically they were not voting for such a concept. Hillary Clinton’s statement is a good representative example:

'My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose — all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.'" cx

****************

So, yeah. She said it AT THE TIME.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. And then rants on and on and on
FOR war and FOR the idea that Saddam had WMD and was a threat.

"Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections.

And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am."

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Bill Clinton advised voting for IWR, and sided with Bush's DECISION to go to war.
And said so even as late as June 2004 when he BOASTED about defending Bush's decision to go to war.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
12. I contend that both parties in the White House knew Iraq was no threat.
I believe the Clintons and the Bushes knew we had bombed them very thoroughly. To me the most serious thing is they did not speak up.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1031
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AJH032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. I don't understand--
why are you continuing another thread with a brand new one? Is this a way of stomping your cyber feet?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Nope. The edit time wore off and couldn't add request those voting no to show
what led them to their conclusion.
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
25. Clinton set the stage, don't forget, when he signed the
Iraq Liberation Act on Oct. 31, 1998 which reads: "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

He caved to intense lobbying by PNAC and CPSG (Center for Peace and Security in the Gulf chaired by Richard Perle).

The ILA authorized the president to provide "the Iraqi democratic opposition" with $2 million in support of radio and television broadcasting and $97 million in military and other defense support. The money went to the Iraqi National Congress--the most recognized leader of the group was Ahmed Chalabi, convicted in absentia for embezzlement and fraud while chairman of the Petra Bank in Jordan.

source: The Bush Agenda, Invading the World, One Economy at a Time by Antonia Juhasz--a MUST read....

Clinton sold out a long time ago and that's why I don't want that bunch back in office again!!!
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. True - and the 98 law was a good idea IMO since Saddam was evil - but war was not the
way to remove him - and it was not the way Clinton chose.

Just as Bush used a good economy to convince folks to destroy entitlements (which they did not realize they were doing) by massive tax cuts for the rich - plus a war to make the rich richer based on a legitimate fear of terrorists - Bush took a good idea about a policy toward Saddam, and turned it into a disaster.

How Bush's evil now rubs off on the Clintons must use logic a bit above my pay grade, because I don't understand "set the stage" and "sold out".
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
28. Some probably voted "no"
Because they find your obsessive Clinton hatred/Kerry worship tiresome and enjoy the chance to irritate you.

I know I did.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. You don't understand one thing about why I hold Clinton accountable.
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 05:36 PM by blm
You all may be happy he let Poppy Bush off the hook for his crimes of office, and works diligently alongside Poppy for the last 5 years rehabilitataing his image and legacy, but I and many others are DISGUSTED by it because we had been fighting the Bushes and opposing their crime wave for over TWO decades.

I was a Clinton defender for years - just as most here - but his book proved to me that he does not respect us, his longtime supporters, enough to tell us the truth about his failure to pursue BushInc.

His book may have satisfied those who care little about exposing the corruption of government, but it offended those of us who do.

And the support of Kerry stems from the FACT that he is the lawmaker MOST RESPONSIBLE for uncovering, investigating and exposing most of what we DO know about that corruption.

Target me all you want because you can't stand what I have to say - but until any of you can PROVE that what I say is false, then maybe you should examine your own motivves before you condemn mine.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Kerry did a great job on BCCI - but it was the media - not Clinton - that polished up Bush41 to his
current glow.

Clinton did not try to stop the media, and in choosing to use Bush to do some good, he actually helped the media in doing the polishing job the GOP had assigned to it.

All evil is rarely punished - Karma rarely works. The evil and rich get more evil and rich and then die. In my opinion the best we can do is stop or just lower the level of future evil, while keeping the truth as at least a plausible version of history that finds its way into the history books.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. And the best way to do that is keep attacking the truthtellers.
Edited on Mon Feb-05-07 09:21 AM by blm
Sorry, dearest papau, but if Clinton had cared about what version of history survived, you couldn't tell it by the book he wrote that would not even mention BCCI, even though he knew darn well after 9-11 that the players of BCCI were all a key part of what happened that day, and the outstanding issues on Marc Rich were NOT really tax evasion as you know, both he and AQ Khan were also part of the BCCI criminal network.

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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
31. What is the point of this discussion? Bill Clinton is no longer in power;
he had no vote in Congress pro or con; he gave the significant info to the Bush cabal and they ignored it; he is going on to new challenges. Again what is the point?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Because he's running for President in '08. Hillary is his "stand in."
Anyone who thinks this is just about Hillary forgets the power of Bill and that he's not going to be baking cookies in the WH if she's elected. All of his policies come with Hillary...the good and the bad.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. He nmade it an issue when he very PUBLICALLY SUPPORTED Bush's decision to go to war. He
was still the most imfluential Democratic voice for the public at large and he publically voiced his support for Bush's DECISION to go to war,m just as he ADVISED Senators that it was important to support Bush on this based on what HE knew the information to be when he was president.

The current discussion stems from Edwards' MTP interview where he said the senators were advised by Clinton's people to support Bush because of what they knew from their time in office,
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
40. Another day in BLM's neverending war on the Clintons.
:eyes:
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Tune in same time same same station same channel tomorrow for more anti-Clinton crap
Good gawd, it's worse than a broken record. I guess the repetitive nature of this defines propaganda to the T.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Ummmm, yeah- this is 'reality mb'
sort of a day to day soap opera.
"As the World (according to BLM) Churns!"
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
41. Kerry tried to cheelead the war in his campaign & got throttled by an imbecile
and got kicked into the turf by a bunch of lying Swiftboating scumbags, all the while doing nothing about it.

"I'll seek out those terrorists and KILL them better than Bush can". What a nightmare that campaign was, seeing a Democrat up there pushing a warmongering campaign and then getting stomped for it.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Clinton supported Kerry's campaign..
I doubt Kerry would support Clinton if he thought there was any wrong doing.
My instincts are telling me Kerry will throw his support to Hillary.

We'll see-
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. At the very least, Kerry certainly won't reflect what his loyalists here like to spout
He might not be the best of campaigners, but he's got more than enough intelligenc and integrity to NEVER buy into any of the garbage that the Kerry brigade spouts about the Clintons here on this forum.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Right On..
He would also like to be on the side of a winner!
I'm sure he's given that aspect considerable thought.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. How is claiming the wrong war at the wrong time cheerleading the war.
He spoke about getting it right in Iraq after Bush had gotten us into this war and directing our effort towards OBL and fighting a smarter war on terror. He was in no way shape or form a cheerleader for this war. Now if you want to accuse him of doing what he thought was right to defend this country well then go ahead.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. If you're saying Kerry didn't cheerlead the war in his campaign
then I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

I clearly remember him trying to sound like a killing warrior when it came to seeking out those terrorists and killing them. He let it be known many more times than once how he'd fight a better war than Bush, and that included the war in Iraq.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Kerry tried to outflank Junior on the right in 2004
Frank: What happened was the antiwar movement supported a pro-war candidate, which not surprisingly, was an utter disaster. How can a movement back a candidate that supports everything it opposes? There is no question that during the campaign John Kerry was a relentless warmonger, as William Safire put it. Kerry was the newest neocon who even out-hawked Bush. True enough. Most people that supported Kerry didn't support his position on the Iraq war, which was shown by a USA Today poll taken during the Democratic convention in Boston.

If you mentioned this paradox in mixed company during the campaign you were likely to hear all sorts of tepid excuses. Like, "Oh, Kerry really isn't for the war, he's just being tactical," or, "Well, at least he's not a neocon, they are really dangerous ya know!" Or something ridiculous like that. All these excuses, despite the fact that Kerry during the 1990s supported the Iraq Liberation Act, which endorsed the military removal of Saddam Hussein. All this despite the fact that Kerry continues to support some of the most violent and grisly U.S. military ventures in Colombia and elsewhere. This, despite the fact that Kerry's key foreign policy advisor Richard Holbrooke played a significant role in perhaps the largest U.S.-backed genocides of the last century – as Holbrooke helped supply Suharto's bloody regime in Indonesia with bundles of illegal weapons. Apparently it didn't matter at all to these supposed antiwar folks that Kerry stood shoulder to shoulder with President Bush claiming that Iraq had those pesky weapons of mass destruction hidden under its turbulent soil. None of this mattered in the least. Talk about the collapse of a movement.

from http://www.antiwar.com/orig/zeese.php?articleid=6270
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guidod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
42. When talking about Clinton you should
distinguish between Sen. Clinton and Pres. Clinton, it can get very confusing. :shrug:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. Didn't Big Dog say "get two for the price of one"?
Aren't they joined at the hip?
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ncrainbowgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
52. Locking.
Misleading and/or flamebait here.
Nothing to see here...
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