Your dignity or your safety

[dsc]

I don't think I am speaking out of school when I say that may gays and lesbians have had to make that choice at several times in their lives. It might be the muttered fag in the school hallway we pretended not to hear, or the times we didn't tell our bosses we were gay, or the times we have let some anti gay joke go by unchallenged, or literally a host of other times.

I must say, that the worst possible thing you can say to me, at least, is that I should vote for safety over dignity. You sound all to much like those kids in the hall, I didn't much like them at the time, time hasn't helped. Take it for what it is worth. I may speak for only myself, or I may speak for a lot of us. I honestly have no idea. But for me, I would strongly suggest some other argument as to why I should get behind Kerry as that one won't hunt.

[mmonk]

1. no one's dignity nor safety

should be sacrificed in a just society.

[Walt Starr]

2. I can see your point, but speaking as a guy who was a geek in High School

from my experience the analogy would be more like this:

Would you prefer the verbal abuse from the wallrats, or the beating the jocks are ready to bring down on you?

That's the only way I can look at it now. Kerry represents the wallrats and the jocks are Bush.

I'll walk past the wallrats and take the crap, but that's better than being grabbed by the jocks and given a beating to within an inch of my life.

[jpgray]

3. You'll have neither safety nor dignity with a Bush appointed SCOTUS

But to answer your point, as far as "civil unions but not 'marriage'", Kerry's position is the same as Dean's. So do you reject Dean outright as well?

Perhaps your disapproval has to do with Kerry's gray-area statement on the amendment. If he supports that amendment, which as he said of DOMA is a way to legislate bigotry, I will be as angry as you will be. I trust Kerry to do the right thing on this.

[dsc]

4. yea that is my problem

combined with his refusual to speak about gay rights unless prompted. But the amendment thing is the killer. I found it appalling.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

11. Dennis Kucinich is FOR gay marriage

so why not vote for him?

[dsc]

14. He wasn't when it mattered

He campaigned in support of DOMA in 1996. I appreciate his change of heart but it is a change.

[jpgray]

22. Kucinich's Catholicism was a factor there, I think

Ditto with his earlier abortion stance. While with another guy I might regard it as weathervane flip-flopping, with Kucinich I somehow doubt he is trying to pander. :)

But yes, what you say is true.

[jpgray]

12. I was very disappointed in that statement

I'm doing the triple threat (fax, phone, mail) to get him to declare himself solidly against the amendment. It's quite clear this is political maneuvering, but the better maneuver would be to dismiss it as something that doesn't belong in the Constitution, declaring it to be misguided moralizing in the vein of the prohibition amendment.

Of course the CORRECT statement would be to denounce it as "separate but equal" nonsense along the lines of segregation. It's a way to claim fairness while denying what YOU yourself have to those you feel closet bigotry towards.

[Democrats unite]

5. Dignity over saftey any day of the week!

I see alot of Democrats no different than Rupkes on this issue. I would rather have someone face to face with me that I know is my enemy than someone that pretends to be my friend. I am who I am.

[corporatewhore]

6. when they ask me to dothis just because imqueer iwonderif they would ask

the same just because i am a latina to me it makes no difference

[MuseRider]

7. Sometimes to the

point of losing your life. My brother was brought up with my father calling him terrible names. He was so ashamed of the way he was that he was afraid to get tested for AIDS. I talked to him so many times about it but getting tested and finding out he was HIV positive would be the confirmation to him that he was just like my father told him he was. Well, he died at age 47, HIV positive and we knew for exactly one week before he was dead that he was infected. I will support you all the way and help you all fight this fight because it sickens me more than I can say that you would feel you had to make the choice between dignity and safety.

[dsc]

13. I am so very sorry

I am very fortunate in that my dad is a great, great man. That is such a senseless loss and sad family dynamic. He deserved so much better. Take care.

[lovedems]

8. Well

I don't have an answer to your question but I just wanted to say that I am sorry the republicans have singled out the gay and lesbian community as a target for intolerance. To me it should be a "no brainer" and you should have all the rights gauranteed under the constitution. It just angers me to no end that this administration has used a community of people to spread hate and intolerance. I guess I can answer your question...dignity. I use to work as the social services director in a Nursing Home (that was filthy) and nobody, I mean nobody, has the right to have their dignity taken away (like frequently happened in that pig sty. It is safe to assume I didn't work there for very long.) Once a persons dignity is gone, what's left?

Edit: like the post above, I will help the fight as well and I would never ask you to compromise your position and choose between dignity and safety.

[Walt Starr]

10. The GLBT community is to 21st century Republicans

what the Jewish community was to 1920's Nazis.

One word describes how the right wingnuts treats these people.

Scapegoat.

[lovedems]

49. You are correct.

The republicans do not want an open and honest debate on the subject. I wish that were the case. Instead, they want to invoke fear for political advantage. They want to scare people by naming all of the terrible things that will happen to society if gay and lesbian marriage is allowed. Oh my God! That is not an open and honest discussion, it is, exactly like you said, using the issue/community as a scapegoat. The rethuglicans depend so heavily on one issue voters and they think they have it in this social issue. I wish there was some kind of informed discussion and not fear mongering.

[JasonBerry]

9. I don't get it

Don't the same reasons heterosexuals want Bush out of office hold true for you? Why should you, as a gay person, need "extra" reasons? Kerry is fine on the issue of civil rights.

[jpgray]

16. These are wholly legitimate concerns, in my opinion. (nt)

[corporatewhore]

18. same reason us minorities need "extra" reasons there has been along

history of discrimination on both sides i wont tolerate a cannidate who cannot stand his ground against racism or homophobia
actually we dont need extra reasons we need equal reasons would you support a cannidate who said he didnt know if you should have the same rights as everybody else

[Democrats unite]

19. And as a heterosexual you will never get it.

[Walt Starr]

24. I'm a heterosexual and I think I get it

but a geek's experience in high school is not so different from a homosexual's experience in high school, hence my wallrat vs. jock anaology above.

Also, some of my experiences being an open Pagan in Wyoming probably come close.

[JasonBerry]

26. !!

"Also, some of my experiences being an open Pagan in Wyoming probably come close."
Probably very true!! :)

[dsc]

trust me I understand

I know we gays don't corner the market on shity school experiences. I agree there are worse things than getting called names. I let a lot of that slide in school. I perfectly understand what you were saying in that post. I just was trying to suggest that instead of threats people might try another tack.

[Walt Starr]

Absolutely

"Go ahead and vote for Bush" is an attempt to rob you of your dignity.

[corporatewhore]

30. ah but you never had your civil rights not available to you because you

were a geek

[JasonBerry]

25. That's offensive as HELL

"As a heterosexual you will never get it."

I DO get "it".....I just don't "get" why the need for more than John Kerry. I am a big supporter of gay rights. If you are not black - can you not "get" the need for racial harmony and "get" civil rights? My point in the post was that we all have the same interests in getting rid of Bush. It would be an issue if Kerry were bad on civil rights, but he just is not. That was the point of the post.

[Walt Starr]

27. I think the point is very stark

As a white man, I can never really "get" what it's like to be a black man in America. I can draw some conclusions, but there are aspects of being a black man that I will simply never be able to understand.

The same holds true being a heterosexual und "getting" what it's like to be a homosexual. I'm married. I cannot imagine not being allowed to marry the person I am in love with.

[JasonBerry]

28. Now that's a point well-taken. Thanks....N/T

[dsc]

33. With all due respect

I can't get what it is like to be black anymore than you can get what it is like to be gay. It is different. I don't demand extra reasons but I do demand that the answer a candidate gives when asked "are you in favor of amending the Constitution to prevent gays from marrying?" the answer is no, not it depends.

[Democrats unite]

34. How can you get something that you are not?

That would be like me saying I understand the plight of African Americans, I am a white male, I would never consider saying some thing like that. So yes I stand by my original statement!

[JasonBerry]

37. Don't buy that

That's pandering. Of course a white male can "get" that civil rights is good and oppression is bad. One need not go through an experience to understand - and - "get" it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

47. I think you're confusing "understanding" the struggle with "experiencing"

the struggle. A straight person can't experience what it's like to face bigotry, bias and violations of civil rights, but they CAN understand the struggle easy enough. We all face bias and mistreatment due to who or what we are or aren't at some point in our life, and we all know that it hurts when that happens. In a world where we are all judged so harshly on so many things, there is plenty of common ground to be found. Being judged in such a way hurts just as badly if you're overweight, unattractive, disabled, not so bright, a woman, black, muslim, and gay. So, only gays can experience bias against gays, but anyone who has ever been judged unfairly can understand how gays feel when this happens.

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. Sure there are plenty of heterosexuals who "get it"

Homosexuals DO have some interests and concerns that are very different from heterosexuals, and anyone who wants to understand that is fully capable of seeing it. Basically, you're going to hear all kinds of Kerry supporters making rationalizations and excuses for his shitty behavior. They know better, and would be speaking up very loudly if it were Bush who made the comment Kerry did. It's called selective morality, and it doesn't apply quite equally when it involves criticizing something their candidate says...even thought they know full well just how wrong Kerry is on this one. Now Dean admitted when he signed Civil Unions that he was very uncomfortable with the idea of gay marriage and that he had the same kind of hangups about homosexuality as Average Joe. But to Dean, this is about Civil Rights, and he made the only call he felt he could by supporting Civil Unions despite his own discomfort over it. He learned a lot along the way...including the fact that the sky won't fall and the earth won't crumble if homosexuals are recognized and given equality. Dean also has said that although he won't force states to pass gay marriage or civil unions, he will recognize both federally for any state who is able to pass either. That would mean under a Dean administration, Massachussetts' gay marriages would be federally recognized. And yeah, that's a hell of a lot better than Kerry's incessant need to try to play both sides of the issue.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. Gay people are getting mighty tired of waiting for a "convenient" time

to have equality in this country. Why on earth should any gay person support someone who would even consider signing a Constitutional Amendment to deny them rights. Isn't that kind of like telling blacks in the 60's that they should support the candidate who supported Jim Crow over one who supported full equality and integration? :shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

36. This is the old Democratic Party that told Blacks to be quiet

so as not to offend Southern Democrats. We are back to the bad old days in which a repressed minority is supposed to remain silent so as not to offend bigots.

[KaraokeKarlton]

39. Exactly! The time is ripe for gay rights to finally be addressed

The country keeps sending the signals that it's ready for the debate. Vermont passed Civil Unions, the Texas court ruled in favor of gays, gay marriage in Massachussetts. There is just no excuse for any politician trying to dodge the issue and play it safe. It's just inexcusable.

[Nicholas_J]

41. They had a chance in Vermont under Dean

The democrats in Vermont did not intitially present a "civil union" bill to the Vermont Legislature, but a gay marriage bill, in January of 2000. It got through the initiatial stages in the legislature, and was snet to the judiciary comittee to check for anmy possible legal errors in the act. Dean opposed gay marriage, made this publically known when the legislation was sent to the judiciary comittee, and thus the changes to Vermonts marriage laws were discarded, and the conservatives n the Vermont legislature then tore the original legislation apart to turn it into Deans desired civil unions:

Marriage Issue Takes Center Stage at the Statehouse

by Barbara Dozetos

Opening Day Demonstration

Early assumptions following the Court’s December 20 decision were that domestic partnership is the only real plan of action. Governor Howard Dean has said on several occasions that he would support domestic partnership legislation, but is uncomfortable with the idea of actual gay marriage. Dean has recently clarified his position, declaring in a radio interview, “I’m against gay marriage.”

“Dean is out of touch with folks. I’m pretty sure that separate but equal isn’t going to fly,” said Judy Sargent of Marshfield, VT. “We should save ourselves a lot of trouble and time and just make it marriage.”

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/feb2000/news_centerstage.htm

Dean had ample opportunity to support gay marriage as a governor. He was not forced to select civil unions, He was presented with the legislation written by Bill Lippert, which was desiggned to allow gay marriage. Dean had the opportunity once, and failed to stand up to the challenge. On other occasions he did the same, in 1996 he opposed John Kerry's Gay Civil Rights bill:

Candidates respond to OITM survey

In early September, OITM sent out questionnaires to candidates for statewide office in Vermont on issues of particular concern to lesbians and gay men. These candidates were informed that the results would be published in our newspaper and that failure to respond would also be noted. What follows are the results of this survey...

Lieutenant Governor: Howard Dean would not support a civil rights bill "aimed specifically at any given group" but he would include lesbian/gay civil rights protection in a broader bill. He did support the HTLV-III anti-discrimination bill sponsored by Micque Glitmen last year. He would support state funding for education and services to people with AIDS and people in high-risk groups. He would support re-instituting the State Human Rights Commission. He was ambivalent about appointing a liaison simply because he wasn't sure if it was necessary because of numerous "friends and supporters" in the gay community.

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/oitm/issues/1986/11nov1986/

Now that he is falling down bigtime in the polls, does Dean come out and support, in a last ditch attempt. gay marriage, when just a few months ago he stated opposition to it. Opportunistic.

[dsc]

43. flat out false

Marriage, according to the chair of the VT house Judicial chair never got above 35 votes in the House it needed 76. Sorce:

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=02/05/2004

At 4 minutes in my claim is documented.

Not only that but Dean singlehandedly got a scared Senate to pass that bill.

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=02/05/2004

That at 14 minutes in.

This is from the man who literally wrote the book on civil unions David Moats.

Game, set match.

[rtassi]

44. I agree that your time has come,

but this isn't a one issue decision we have to make in November. No one candidate, or for that matter, no one president can right all of the injustices and inequities in America. Who ever he ends up being, he will still have the Military industrial complex to contend with, as well as the economic devastation that has been heaped upon us, our total loss of credibility abroad, all of the civil rights issues, and a polarized society's hatred and disdain for our fellow Americans. So it becomes a choice of removing a man and his like minded extremists, who we know with absolute certainty don't give a shit about you or me in exchange for one who might care a little more. I wish it were a better trade.

[KaraokeKarlton]

45. When did I say I was a homosexual? I didn't, and I'm not.

I just have a pretty good understanding of this particular debate seeing as I live in the state that turned out to be ground zero in the fight a few years back. You don't have to be gay to recognize that the country is ready to have this debate and discussion. :shrug:

[rtassi]

46. I apologize,

for making that assumption.

[KaraokeKarlton]

48. Well, it doesn't really matter one way or the other

The issue of gay rights isn't just for homosexuals...it's for all of us because what helps one of us helps us all in the long run. Ironically, the battle would be so easy to win if it weren't for the fear many have that heterosexuals will be so offended that they will support Bush. The fact of the matter is that most conservatives couldn't care less about Civil Unions. It's only the religious right who cares, and if they had any ability to influence civil and reporoductive rights we wouldn't have abortion, Affirmative Action, Women's rights, to name a few.

[IndianaGreen]

15. I want equality under the law

No one should be treated differently because of race, national origin, gender, color, sexual orientation, or class.

Dignity and safety are the byproducts of equality under the law.

This is what happens when there is no equality under the law:

1. People of color have to sit in the back of the bus.

2. Teaching license is refused to gay teachers.

3. Marriage license is issued only to heteros, and for people of the same race.

[HazMat]

17. Then vote for Bush

It's a simple choice.

[dsc]

20. Gee that is exactly the fucking bull shit argument I meant

thanks for providing the text book example of it.

[Walt Starr]

23. I'm surprised it took so long for an example to show up.

:shrug:

[Democrats unite]

21. Your right it is a very simple choice.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[jpgray]

31. Robot rights are also in the gutter under Bush. :-) (nt)

[IndianaGreen]

32. Grovelbot is GREEN

I think it is a subliminal message.

[jpgray]

40. LOL, I concede the point. (nt)

[oxymoron]

42. As a gay man who has been an active progressive for many

years and is definitely left of center, I appreciate John Kerry's long standing support of the gay community. He has been a loyal supporter of GLBT issues for many years, and long before it was a politically expedient thing to do. He lobbied and voted against DOMA. He has an exceptional rating from the Human Rights Campaign and The National Gay and Lesbian Taskforce. Any attempt to characterize him any differently is just spin and has no basis in fact. You don't speak for me and you should be ashamed of yourself for misrepresenting his record. I'll listen to the major GLBT grassroots politcal organizations when deciding on a candidate.

John Kerry's rating from the HRC:

http://www.hrc.org/Content/NavigationMenu/HRC/Get_Informed/Campaigns_and_Elections/Presidential_Candidates/2004_Candidates.htm

John Kerry's rating from the NGLTF

http://www.ngltf.org/electioncenter/SummaryComparison.pdf

<edit for typo>

[dsc]

50. He has a good record

which makes his flirting with changing the Constitution all the mora appalling. He knows better.