Do you think Kerry protesting Vietnam with Jane Fonda will hurt him

[rhino47]

From: POW-MIA InterNetwork

Date: June 29, 2003

"Kerry Protested Vietnam With 'Hanoi' Jane and 'Radical' Ramsey

On the campaign trail, presidential hopeful Sen. John Kerry regularly boasts about his Vietnam War combat experience, which earned him three purple hearts, plus the silver and bronze stars.

But the Massachusetts Democrat doesn't much discuss what he did after returning home, when he became a much-celebrated organizer for one of America's most radical anti-war groups and rubbed shoulders with the likes of 'Hanoi' Jane Fonda and former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark.

As a rising star with Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Kerry attended a February 1971 seminar bankrolled by Fonda, who was the group's most prominent booster. Watching 125 self-proclaimed Vietnam veterans testify at a Detroit Howard Johnson's about atrocities committed by U.S. forces, the man who would be president later said he found the accounts shocking and irrefutable.
http://www.aiipowmia.com/inter23/in290603kerry.html
Do you think the repukes will use this?Will it have an effect of
Kerrys standing with Vets?All told its said that Vet turn out will be high in GE.
Personally I support Kerry in his right to protest and does not effect my feelings about his ability to be president.

[Tom Rinaldo]

1. He can probably deal with it but Clark wouldn't have to. n/t

[blm]

2. Most of the Vietnam vets felt the same way Kerry did.

And many were glad his actions helped bring them home sooner and intact.

[formernaderite]

25. I don't know...

...depends on how it's played. I know quite a few Nam Vets, who resented Fonda and her activities. At this point I've got them on the Dean team, but whether they're basic apolitical nature will move them onto Kerry's team is debatable. Fonda is not a hero in this blue collar crowd.

[littlejoe]

44. People's stance on Fonda have softened over time.

I know it was shocking at the time, but time is on her side. People like Jane Fonda and John Kerry take unpopular stances sometimes, yet in many cases they are proven right. They end up being admired for having the courage of their convictions, and in many cases are elevated to a new status as a result. You will find NO ONE who is now willing to put a positive spin on Vietnam. So, my question is, Why in the world would people think that Kerry's mainstream feelings about Vietnam would hurt him?

[voice of reason]

60. I kinda disagree . . .

I know a lot of older righties who still hate "Hanoi Jane" for what she did. Time hasn't softened their feelings about her.

However, "history" probably has relaxed a little on her legacy. People who live through stuff rarely change their view, but those who follow aren't as close to it and generally receive more and varied info to help make up their minds.

v.o.r.

[arewethereyet]

63. no, it has not softened over time

Being anti war will only hurt among oldsters. Being connected to Fonda will piss off vets no end. She got people killed or so they all believe.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

3. No

The only people who will care are the knuckle-draggers that pee themselves at the mention of Jane Fonda's name and would have never voted for him anyway.

[bowens43]

4. No, it won't hurt him.

It shows character, courage and intelligence. Now, with 20/20 hind sight we know that the Vietnam protesters were right.

[tobius]

28. Kerry has

said he was proud of his efforts in VVAW. He also says he was proud to serve in Vietnam; is it possible to have it both ways? Sounds like his protest efforts did not ease our own POWs treatment. "possible to have it both ways..' I sense some type of pattern here

Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.
H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

[bowens43]

32. Of course it's possible to be proud of his service

and proud of his opposition to the war. I don't understand your reference to POW's. You feel that Americans opposed to the war should just sit down and shut up because their protests did not change the way the POW's were treated? That makes no sense. I think you underestimate the effectiveness of the anti-war protests.

[tobius]

51. I was refering

to this line provided in the link.- "Even the most famous POW of all, Sen. John McCain, later revealed that his North Vietnamese captors used reports about the Kerry-led protest to taunt him and his fellow prisoners."

"I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts."
                               -- Will Rogers

[BurtWorm]

5. Yes, Republicans will use it. But their boy is getting tattered by AWOL

and that's only the tip of the ice berg. Maybe now the press will focus on how Bush got into the Guard over the heads of other Texans who applied before he did. Maybe now they'll ask why Bush was promoted so rapidly when he scored so abysmally on his officer training tests. Maybe they'll finally ask why he really didn't take that required physical and what it means that James R. Bath, who would go on to score Saudi money from people like Salem bin Laden for Bush's pathetic oil ventures, was also grounded for the same reason just one month later.

[papau]

6. NOPE - he was in room at hearing w/Fonda - not protesting w/ Fonda

not that it matters

Fox will claim for the next 4 weeks that this proves him scum - and then Roger will note that the rest of the none Scafir right wing media has not run with it - and indeed the rest of the media is laughing at them -

and Roger will put it on his to do list for 11/1/2004.

[mac2]

7. They were right!

How can it hurt them when they were right.

Kerry should have known Bush would do the same thing as Vietnam to get his World Union agenda.

[RichM]

8. It would be ironic if it did, considering he was right then, & wrong now.

He's hoping, of course, that his craven capitulation to US militarism since those days will provide him with some immunity on that count. But the Republicans will be able to demonstrate that Kerry used to be anti-war, then voted for Bush's war, then tried to pretend he was a "critic" of that war. That will show Kerry for what he really is -- an opportunist with no principles. The Republicans will do very well with that charge -- because it's true.

[Sly Kal]

39. Exactly

You have it right on the money.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. The vets I know are voting Kerry

and they also came home and protested Viet Nam. Since that war is considered a disaster now, I don't see it as hurting Kerry's chances. And Bush's base are still going to be thinking about Clinton.

[CWebster]

10. It doesn't matter what it is

It is how it is played through the media. It is how the media spins it. Apparently Kerry has a good piece of the media in his back pocket and look how they destroyed Dean and characterized him as "too angry and unelectible" based on a campaign rally. How flimsy is that? Yet, everyone dutifully drank the potion.

[tabasco]

11. Kerry is a lifesaver. He saved lives in Nam and then he protested

in order to save lives. He is still trying to save lives by deposing the evil Bush cabal. Go Kerry!

[Forkboy]

12. In an ideal world it wouldn't

But in this world we'll have to wait and see.

[molly]

13. Nope - it will only help him

[LosinIt]

14. If the Repugs have found the alleged photo of the 2 of them, he is toast.

You thought the media overplayed Howard's scream, this might be worse. But wait, never mind, he is getting the same pass that Bush got four years ago. Nothing to see here, move along people.

[rhino47]

15. Over in freeperville they say there are photos of Fonda and Kerry

I dont know if this is true.I did a search on goggle and askjeeves and turned up no photos of them together.

[Monte Carlo]

16. The rally pic is in 1970, Jane didn't go to Vietnam until 1972.

Remember that, people. I get the feeling we'll have to repeat it often.

[Bombtrack]

17. It's way, way, down on the totem poll, the media whores are trying to

make this into a story. They are trying to predict something. But people believe that Kerry earned the right to show up at the same rally that Jane Fonda happened to show up at.

Most swing voters are unlikely to be much affected by that. Other things about Kerry certainly, but not that

[MaineDem]

18. It won't matter to me or my husband (a vet)

We share his views as do many many people of our generation.

[Nay]

59. Same here. DH is a vietnam vet and the pic doesn't matter to either of us.

In fact, looking back, we think it is refreshing to reflect on a time when protesters were actually put on the evening news, and had a hand in actually shaping public policy. Imagine that!

[OneTwentyoNine]

19. He tried to end a War,just like we tried to stop one a year ago...

Shit they should be praising him 24/7. He was combat wounded and survived and wanted the madness to stop. Hell,would Ron Kovic be "hurt" if he ran for office because he became a very critical of the War and tried to stop it--from his wheelchair?

Fight back KERRY!!!!!!!

David

[w4rma]

20. the photo, I think. Kerry is in the background (near upper left).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1101207

[blondeatlast]

42. That's IT?

I count 15 identifiable people in that photograph. I vaguely remember the situation; there were hundreds, if not thousands of people there.

Sheesh.

[rhino47]

49. My fav quote from one of my fav peeps!

"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much. Oscar Wilde"

[Kahuna]

21. Yes it will hurt him. We can't afford to lose ANY votes..

This will certainly cost him votes. Even among dems.

[eyeswideopened]

22. Yes, He protested Vietnam but voted for Iraq

[gobblemy]

31. Didn't Kerry vote against the first Iraq war?

I don't get it? I'll keep supporting Dean.

[incapsulated]

33. Yeah, he did *eom*

[incapsulated]

23. I don't know

The last time Hanoi Jane was an issue was back in the eighties, at least that's the last time I remember.

Will it play now? Among some segments of the population, sure it will. But they probably don't need to be reminded, they never forgot.

Will this effect those to whom this is "news"?

I have no idea. But Rove & co. will try it out, no doubt.

[MidwestTransplant]

24. Most people know Jane Fonda as the exercise woman

[xray s]

26. Hee hee hee!

That is exactly what I was thinking.

Jane is pretty popular these days!

[chimpy the poopthrower]

27. Yes.

I don't think he did anything wrong WRT Vietnam. But I do think it's going to hurt him. The RNC will paint him as unpatriotic, and the media will go along with it, and we'll start seeing more and more e-mails going around with more BS than Snopes or the rest of us will have time to debunk.

But so what?

Kerry's not getting my primary vote anyway, but if I really wanted him as the nominee, I wouldn't let crap like this stop me from voting for him. The right wing is going to trash whoever our nominee is. (On the other hand, it may be something to keep in mind if you're one of those who believes Kerry is so much more electable than the other candidates because he is a war hero and the media can't touch him -- they can and will slime whoever they want, war hero or not.)

[GalleryGod]

30. Compared to THEIR Guy? Governor PEE-PEE-PANTS!?

We got 911 Commission Testimony now that whilst Pee-Pee-Pants was hiding on his plane...Good Old "Big Time",in effect, "choked in the clutch" and let Plane #3 hit the friggin' Pentagon...then there's Scooter Libby and the Plame Affair..oh...I'm outta breath:think:

Yeah, Jane & JK...does not float Next to these TURDS.

[GalleryGod]

29. Now if they are NUDE photos of JK and Jane! That'd Be COOL!

She was one:evilgrin: Hot Tamale:hippie: Back-in-the-day:bounce:

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm! Mmmmmmmmmmmmm!

This is just Greasy Eddie Gillespie's Latest Talking Point that Tweety:hurts: unleashed on the I-Man:wow:

[AP]

34. Of course it will hurt.

This is a danger of running on national security for a Democrat.

They'll say Bush was a pilot during the Vietnam War, and Kerry was at rallies with Hanoi Jane. People will be confused. Meanwhile, nobody will be talking about Democratic strenghts (middle class opportunity) and what Republicans are REALLY doing behind he curtain (transferring wealth and power to the top).

[lastliberalintexas]

35. It appears that it already may be

My dad told me he had to de-program a friend of his who had received an email from a local vets' group slamming Kerry. IMO, this is one of the few things that is appealing about Kerry right now. But to *some* people- especially in the South?- him protesting Vietnam MAY hurt him.

And if the RW can inaccurately portray his actions as being connected somehow to Fonda...

[Maddy McCall]

36. It will kill him in the South...

In the General Election, it will hurt him badly.

Southerners still hate Jane, even though she has become a Christian and renounced her past "evil, wicked ways."

I'm not saying I like it--I don't--but I have my ear to the ground and hear what southerners say, and this is going to be a huge issue.

You would think, with its proud military history, the south would rather have a real Vietnam vet, even if he was a friend of Jane, than a draft dodging, dry alcoholic, coke-sniffing, privileged frat boy.

If Wesley Clark were our candidate, this issue would be moot. Clark is the only candidate who can carry the south in the GE.

[Sly Kal]

37. Yes

No matter how I feel about it (I don't care) it will hurt him.

[Dhalgren]

38. No.

.

[goodhue]

40. no

[littlejoe]

41. Hell no. John and Jane were right. n/t

[Bertha Venation]

43. Oh, for crying out loud. No!

The only people put off by that will be radical r-wingnuts who wouldn't vote for Jesus Christ if he were a Democrat.

[lastliberalintexas]

45. Not true

My dad's friend is a moderate Dem- and even he was upset about the supposed connection between Kerry's protests and Fonda. As I said in my earlier post, my dad had to "de-program" his friend (a Vietnam vet himself) after he got some email from a vets' group. Even my father- the fairly liberal individual that he is- faults Fonda for going to the "enemy's home" to protest the war. He has no problem with Kerry, Fonda or anyone else protesting in the US (or even abroad, so long as it wasn't in Vietnam).

People here tend to make these kinds of statements- every "gun nut" is a repub and the like. They're simply not true- at least not in the South.

[Maddy McCall]

50. What you said.

I agree. Couldn't have said it better myself, LLIT.

[bigtree]

46. Barbarella was nice

[edzontar]

47. It would be funny if it were not so tragic....Kerry took a stand

On the Vietnam war, which was the correct , moral one.

He volunteered---unlike fellow Bonesman Bush---then came back and became involved in the anti-war movement.

Whatever you think of Fonda and her activities, those were HER decisions, and not Kerry's.

Alot of us protested the war and saw it for waht it was---a US war of agression.


I marched with Kerry and admired him back then, although i feel he has traveled a long way "back" to the world of the war-makers since those days.

And now we see that the pukes and Media whores are preparing the asssault, and Kerry too will be smeared, and relentlessly, as a hippie Jane fonda-lovng "radical", which will damage him among the ignorant "swing" voters that he has claimed to have so much appeal to.


Sometimes I think I have lived too long.

[shance]

48. This is the John Kerry I like and would vote for in a heart beat

if I believed it were still there.

Actually I think its still there, but probably overpowered by other instincts now.

Unfortunately I think authenticity and purity are so devalued by our society and Kerry has done what all individuals do by trying to adjust to the world and survive.

This is one of my biggest complaints I have about people remaining in Washington too long. They seem to lose a part of themselves that is really authentic and good.

I know I sound dramatic, but I think its true.

Somebody bring back term limits and save Democracy*

[Nashyra]

52. Clark

[OutlawCorporatePolls]

53. hey wait..

.. i took that picture, and it was supposed to be saved until october.. who leaked it? who?

- sincerely pissed off, but still yours, k. rove.

[Mr.Green93]

54. isn't it time

to recognize Jane Fonda for the brave patriot she is?

[corporatewhore]

55. its a slap in the face to soliders now

he fought hard on behalf of soliders being used in an unjust war then but now he votes yes on letting bush use soliders in an unjust war

[killbotfactory]

56. No. Nobody cares.

Vietnam is irrelevant to current issues.

[arewethereyet]

57. oh yeah thats gonna leave a mark

Its impossible to overestimate the hate vets have for Jane Fonda.

[voice of reason]

58. I don't think it will hurt for Dem nomination . . .

But, it will be a major talking point during the general election and debates. And it won't be Kerry's postion and relationship with Fonda, but rather his movement back and forth on the issue and especially how he is trying to use his Viet Nam combat experience as a positive (which confilcts with post-Nam comments and behavior).

Now, I agree his service in Nam is admirable - just as his stand after returning is principled. He just needs to be careful how he allows his crew to spin it and not go to far, which wold open him up to pot shots of hipocracy from the other side.

v.o.r.

[jpgpenn]

61. at a minimum...

The repuke will make sure this is posted anywehere and everywhere.What I worry about most is what else has Kerry done?

[bain_sidhe]

62. Of course. The question is, where?

As I've noted, there are vets that still get apoplectic about "Hanoi Jane" and nuanced arguments that he was involved with her before she went to Hanoi won't reach them. However, there aren't enough of them to deny him the win in a solidly "blue" coast state. I don't have any real hopes of him winning anything in the south, so it really doesn't matter if he loses a southern state by 10,000 votes or 100,000 votes - the electoral vote still goes to Bush.

That leaves the west and mid west. Is the "apoplectic veteran" vote there enough to turn a state over to Bush? Dunno.

[Moderator]

64. Locking......

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