Manly men and the 2004 election

[BeyondGeography]

This primary season will be remembered for many reasons, but, for me, it confirms a belief I have been nurturing since the 2000 election: Democrats won't be ready to win until they're ready to fight, and we are in the process of picking the person we think will be the most effective fighter.

Scroll back to the post-2000 election saga in Florida. The Republicans physically stormed the Miami-Dade recount and effectively shut it down. We used lawyers, they used thugs. And who won? Oh, I know, it helped to have a loaded Supreme Court, but there was something primal in the way the Republicans fought us in Florida that reinforced old stereotypes of macho red states and feminized blue states. Many of us were outraged, rather than embarassed, comfortable as we tend to be in our skin. But the old reptile within registered the note: next time, I want to kick THEIR ass.

Throughout Bush's presidency, running up to the pre-electoral season in 2003, the Democratic wimp factor was painfully evident. Tom Daschle was the symbol of our frustration; a man who could be sitting on an active hornet's nest without showing any signs of discomfort. Taciturn Tom and Go-Along Gephardt did their best, but they led us to one ignominious defeat after another.

Meantime, Bush emerged in the post-9/11 period as a virile fighter for good Americans everywhere. His strut and sneer an everyday reminder of the attitude that kicked off his whole presidency in Florida back in 2000. The reptile continued to stir.

Into the breach stepped Howard Dean, whose anger was music to so many ears. Stocky and solid, and with the verbal skills of a cagey New York street tough, Howard's popularity ultimately hinged on one simple notion: Finally, we have a man who will STAND UP and TAKE THE FIGHT to Bush.

But Dean's toughness, which is ultimately what we're looking for in this election, since there is general agreement in the party on policy, didn't hold up under scrutiny. His lack of military experience was a negative in this environment. Even worse, he received a medical deferment and went skiing during the war. And, finally, it turned out he couldn't take a punch without complaining. For me, his tailspin really started when he ran to Terry McAuliffe and ask him to "make them stop" in so many words.

No, we needed more than Howard Dean. We courted Wes Clark. A four-star general vs. AWOL the Flight Suit Boy. That sounded much better to many of us than macho poseur Bush vs. Dean, who did even less to serve his country during Vietnam than AWOL.

But Clark didn't count on one thing: the rise of John "Bring it On" Kerry, a war hero himself, who had decades of political experience to boot. Kerry, it was also clear, was a fighter who we could seemingly count on to stab the other guy in the back if he had to. He has a dark side. We whose candidates oppose him are sometimes angered by it, but we also realize who he will eventually be up against in the fall. We want an animal on our side this time. We want a killer. We may lose on points, but we will not go down without spilling our guts and drawing political blood this time.

Edwards is too nice and too pretty. His personality and background don't fit with the demands of this particular moment in time.

Lieberman, for all the ridicule he inspires here, also would have mounted a much more effective candidacy had he not been pre-defined as a wimp.

No, this is the year of the manly man. And that, more than anything to me, explains the rise of Howard Dean, the courtship of Wesley Clark, and the pending victory of John Kerry.

[Frances]

1. My thoughts exactly

I worked for KKT in the Maryland gubernatorial race in 2002. She was angry, but she was not an effective fighter.

Democrats need someone strong who looks like he could make Bush run and hide if the person just gave Bush a strong look. We need someone who makes Bush look like a physical wimp.

At the same time, the man must look presidential.

[Doctor Panacea]

2. On Kerry

I will have to sit out this election. For me, Kerry is still a just a practitioner of 'nuanced nothingness'. There is no passion. He will just be a gray, lifeless scarecrow when he comes up against the Busheviks, who will run on slogans and propaganda and will have the great Wurlitzer drowning everything else out.

We will try again in four years.

Okay, maybe I won't sit it out, but he is not going to win. Bush will not run and hide. That possibility will never even arise. The Busheviks know what they are doing. Kerry will be isolated as a wishy-washy liberal insider. He will be like Bob Dole was for the Republicans.

[Bucky]

6. "Excellent point. I applaud you saying this," said Karl Rove.

Karl Rove asked me to pass a message along to you. He wants to thank you for not voting for Bush's opponent. This will make it easier to kill brown people and steal their oil. Also your noninvolvement will make things easier for his buds as they shred the Constitution.

So thanks. America is a little safer tonight due to your political virginity.

[zoeyfong]

26. Excuse me? Kerry voted for "killing brown people and stealing their oil."

How many more such wars will President Kerry get us into? There were literally millions of people worldwide who knew this war was a criminal sham and a con job of historical proportions, but the virgin kerry just took bushie on his word. I want to puke when i hear kerry criticising the war now.

[tobius]

3. Kerry the fighter

hmm, I'll need to ponder on the likelihood that "fighter" will stick.
Naaah.., unless you count his defensive skills trying to deflect scrutiny on his contradictory positions.

[BootinUp]

4. Just call me baffled

I can't see much emotion expressed by Kerry. A presidential candidate need to be able to show some emotion. I have decided I will not donate to a Kerry campaign. I want the DNC to know I am pissed at their shortened accelerated primary.

[LandOLincoln]

10. Call me baffled too.

Quien es mas macho?

To me it's clearly Wes Clark, although I grant that Wes Clark on television and Wes Clark up close and personal (more or less) seem to be two entirely different critters--simply the nature of the medium, I'm afraid, and zip to do with Clark himself. He is what he is, always, but apparently one has to have been in his physical presence to have experienced the power of that presence.

That may well be true of John Kerry as well, but since I haven't met the man I'm in no position to say. I thought he was simply godawful in the early debates, and he still puts me to sleep whenever I see him on C-Span or wherever. He was a fighter once, and I honor and respect that, but I see no recent evidence that he's anything close to the man he was once.

Clark has been a maverick and a thoroughgoing pain in the ass to the established order his whole life, god love 'im, and I'm sticking with this gutsy and fearless MAN to the end.

[Carolina]

14. I have met them both

and you are absolutely right about Clark.

As for Kerry, he's no better in person than on the tube. zzzzzzzzzzzz

[LandOLincoln]

16. Oh dear, I was afraid of that. God--or whoever-- help us all.

[Tom Rinaldo]

5. Oh please

I am so tired of this predictable trend on the eve of an important primary. Someone supporting Clark making the case for another candidate. Yes I am sure that you are perfectly sincere. I do understand the DU rules. Must be some kind of herd mentality that Clark supporters in particular feel moved to express their admiration of other candidate's campaigns exactly when the most important votes are looming, not the day after mind you.

Funny when I look at Wesley Clark attacking Bush directly (usually it is when I see him in person or on CSPAN because the mainstream media doesn't give him the time of day) he sure seems manly to me. Maybe that is why there was all that talk about why Clark was doing better with male voters than female voters. Women don't like Four Star Wimp[s running for office it seems.

[boobooday]

7. Maybe it's time to give up on the manly men

And get a woman!!!!

Then we won't have to hear the endless crap about who is manlier.

Women don't have arguments about who is womanlier. If there were women candidates would we allow that kind of evaluation?

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[BeyondGeography]

8. I'm not changing stripes, just trying to make sense of the picture

They're all manly men (look at the title of the post!).

And Wes will get another nice donation from me on Wednesday, no matter what the results tomorrow.

FYI, I started out for Dean, moved to Kerry and then to Clark, who I am convinced would be a greater president than any of our other candidates. DU is a place where people have their minds made up but where we can still enjoy an exchange of ideas no matter who we're pulling for. I was hoping for an interesting conversation on rage, anger, Bush's preening macho crap and how all of that is playing on the voters.

I seriously doubt I'm costing Wes any votes here.

[Tom Rinaldo]

11. It's not our votes

It is our focus to go out and fight for more votes for Wes tomorrow throughout the day until the polls close. It takes a clear resolve and positive spirit to cold call people to sincerely try to influence their votes through honest persuasion.

I will be glad to have the type of discussion you want to have after the polls close in Tennessee. We will have a whole lot of new information to draw on for that discussion by then. I am sorry if I seemed rude to you. There is time enough for what you want to do. Now is the time to fight for what we believe in.

[BeyondGeography]

12. I understand, Tom. You're never rude.

I shed tears for the General all the time. I know from personal devotion and experience how much his supporters love him (even if those aren't particularly MANLY admissions). And I know where the focus is right now.

No dissolution of resolve intended here.

[Leilani]

19. I agree, Tom

No whining allowed in the General's Army!!

March on to Tennessee for victory tomorrow!!!

[stickdog]

9. Kerry has fought the good fight. Together with the establishment

press, he's vanquished the insurgent Democratic grassroots and made America safe for gloablists and corporate interests once more!

[revcarol]

13. The manliest man:

the one who FOUGHT against the Patriot Act

the one who rallied over 100 Congressmen and women to FIGHT the IWR

the one who FOUGHT for labor and the environment in Seattle

GUESS WHO!!

(From a woman who likes those who walk the walk as well as talk the talk!!)

[LandOLincoln]

15. Sorry, not a chance.

I love Dennis and always have, but I'll take moral AND sheer physical courage over moral courage by itself any day. I want a man with moral courage plus the kind of sheer selfless guts required to take real bullets and come back to fight another day, the kind of man who doesn't hesitate at age 50+ to rappell down a 1000-foot, mined and rain-soaked cliff under enemy fire in an attempt to rescue a beloved friend.

I like to think that Dennis would fight like a demon if he had to, but I KNOW Wes Clark would, because he has.

That's the difference.

[gauguin57]

17. well, Al Gore

sure got manly in that speech last night. Yelling and screaming about betrayal ....

Uh, Macho Al, where were you FOUR FRIGGIN' YEARS AGO?

[Mairead]

22. I wasn't aware that presidents were required to rappel down cliffs

Why aren't you trying to require that the prez be able to repair a tank under field conditions, fly a Warthog and drop bombs accurately, personally build an atomic bomb, and speak all major world languages? Because that would leave Clark out, of course.

Moral courage is more important than physical courage. The appearance of physical courage, as plenty people have observed, is often really not courage at all but rather impulsiveness, a defective imagination, or a deficient adrenaline level. Psychopaths are VERY 'courageous' - they'll take the most appalling risks because, as Lykkens demonstrated decades ago, they don't produce adrenaline in response to stress the way the rest of us do. Inject them with adrenaline and suddenly their 'courage' goes away.

My goal isn't to knock Clark here --I feel agnostic about him-- but to encourage reality testing. We're not well-served by believing that someone is a better choice for President because they were once willing to do something that's not only not part of the President's role but actually antithetical to it.

What we need in a President is not someone who will ignore bullets, but who will confront and thwart the powerful.

[rumguy]

18. I agree - Kerry has a feral toughness

And he has surrounded himself with similarly scrappy fighters. Max Cleland and other vets, along with people from the intel community like Beers and Richard Clarke - people who know the inside workings of the CIA and Pentagon and who know where some of the "bodies are buried" relative to Osama and the war on terra.

[tobius]

21. feral doesn't fit my

image of him.

feral
adj : wild and menacing; "a ferocious dog"
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

[elsiesummers]

20. Dean seems most macho of the three but...

"the verbal skills of a cagey New York Street tough" ?

Never heard a street tough say "contretemps" or "milieu".

Clark seems sort of Alan Alda to me (which I like). Gert (who I was impressed by) is more macho than Wesley.

Kerry - macho - I suppose so - he doesn't smile much and that is sort of a masculine trait. More macho than not macho.

I like Edwards the best.

I guess macho doesn't impress me much. I guess I prefer macho women to macho men.

[zoeyfong]

28. I can't disagree with your last sentence :)

[corporatewhore]

23. Real men with a spine would vote for things because they are right not

popular and can admit when they are wrong and not blame idiot on their vote Real men take stands and say there is no fucking way i could support such ablantant disregard for equal rights like the FMA Same goes for real Women

[loyalsister]

24. Manly men don't use big words

If Kerry is going to be macho he needs to stop acting like a man in the midst of a midlife crisis with his stupid stunts and just speak like a MAN. It's his language that pigeonholes him. He needs shorter sentences and words if he is going to go toe to toe with Bush. He has to freak him out with something short he can't possibly respond to.
Most importantly, it needs to be ORIGINAL.

[zoeyfong]

25. Another reason not to vote for kerry; it validates repug macho b.s.

Howard Dean is exactly what we need; he is not 'macho' or 'manly' which is apparently what a lot of people think a winning candidate must be; he simply has a combination of the right principles and the passion to fight for them. He took the 'unmanly' (correct) position on the war, and then backed it up with 'manly' aggressiveness. These stereotypes are so bogus, but kerry and bush play right into them; they both went the stereotypically macho route and said yes to war, nevermind how inane it was. We do not need a president who is a cartoon charicature; we need a president who makes the right decisions and fights for what he believes in - that's not macho, that's just being a strong, principled leader.

[NV1962]

27. Call me baffled and befuddled

"Lieberman, for all the ridicule he inspires here, also would have mounted a much more effective candidacy had he not been pre-defined as a wimp."

Yah, of course. It's because he's a "wimp" - has nothing whatsoever to do with his rather conservative profile...

:eyes:

Mmmmmm... Manly men... Yum. Well slap my hiney and call me George, I think you're right!

Must. Vote. Clark. Must. Vote...