NEWZFLASH: A tidbit for the Rangel Lynch Mob members ........

[Stinky The Clown]

You do know that Charlie has been pushing this draft thing for a while now, right?

You know he is doing it SOLELY to make a point, right?

You do know that he is NOT in favor of a draft, right?

You do know that the proverbial Hell dwelling snowball has a better chance at survival than this bill has of passage, right?

In case you don't know any of that, here's the result of voting for the draft the last time this bill made it to the floor (in 2004) for the much loved 'upperdown' vote:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll494.xml">Charlie votes "no fucking way, Jose"

Two yeas: Murtha and Stark.

Among the 402 Nays: Charlie Rangel, the bill's sponsor.

If you don't think this is nothing more or less than political theater to make a very good point, then you're just buying the RW spin. If anyone happened to hear Laura The Wench Ingrham on her radio hate fest today, she brought it up. She asked her devoted callers to comment on it, all smug and shit. She got calls. Obviously righties, judging by the totality of their comments. On the draft specifically, they thought it was a great idea because they said it would **force the privileged in our country to serve, too** and that 'if you support the war, then you should be willing to fight in it or have your kid do so'.

Laura abandoned this topic after only four or five calls.

The point in citing that?

People GET it.

I wish some on our side would also get it.

We now return to our program of prerecorded weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, already in progress.

[Vorta]

1. I love Charlie Rangel.He's sort of filling the place in my heart once occupied by Paul Winfield.

[NYCGirl]

2. Murtha voted for it? Wow.

BTW, I think Rangel is a treasure. NY is proud of him.

[CarolNYC]

4. you got that right....

He's my Congressman and I must say, I'm getting mighty sick of the lynch mob myself...

[wryter2000]

55. I love Charlie

He's about the smartest guy around. He knows what he's doing.

Someone called Randi and said that CNN is discussing the number of soldiers we have and where they are in connection with this story. Charlie started a conversation we badly need to have.

There's not going to be any draft, and Charlie knows that perfectly well.

[Kelly Rupert]

3. Kicked because people need to read this.

[Beelzebud]

5. Disagreement of tactics is not a fucking "lynch mob"...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

9. There are a lot of people here who aren't disagreeing with it as a tactic.

They seem to think that Rangel really wants a draft, and is going to try to bring it about. They're the ones calling for his head, not the people disagreeing with it as a political tactic. A lot of really nasty threads about him in the past day or so. I've given up arguing with the people who actually think there's going to be a draft.

[endarkenment]

18. There are a lot of people here who think the draft is a great idea.

And not for rangel's manipulative bullshit reasons. Go re-read the threads.

[enough already]

39. I'm not calling for his head. I just think he's stupid

And he IS saying that he is serious about actually reinstating the draft. So is he lying or an honest national "treasure", as others here have said? Mark my words, very shortly other elected Democrats will be disavowing Rangel's actual words and we'll look stupid. Again. This just isn't necessary.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

41. I really have no opinion one way or the other.

I've never really thought of this as a particularly effective strategy, but I doubt it's doing much harm either. The Republicans' bitching about it isn't particularly convincing or beneficial to them, either.

[tomp]

79. i believe he wants a draft.

i believe he is a miltarist. i believe he is a stalking horse for u.s. imperialst foreign policy. i do not believe he wants to live in peace with the world if it means the end of u.s. supremacy economically. but then, i believe that about most politicians.

[wryter2000]

56. If I understood your point

You thought this move wasn't a wise one as one of the first things we do. I have no problem with that assessment. I believe you called him an idiot, though, and I disagree with that.

[hippiechick]

6. Thanks!

:applause:


:hi:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. You're getting in the way of a perfectly good panic.

Sit down!

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Yes Sir/Ma'am!

:rofl:

[endarkenment]

8. Yes I understand that Mr. Rangel is a duplicitous manipulative liar.

Tell me something I don't know.

Tons of posts here from the 'lynch everyone who disagrees with rangel' crowd all in favor of a draft. 'splain that.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Don't argue with me ....... I'm simply providing facts.

[endarkenment]

20. Don't want an argument: don't post messages.

Sheesh.

As I said Rangel is a duplicitous manipulative liar, while plenty of people here today have stated that they think a draft would be a fine idea.

If Rangel thinks "Democrats want to draft your kids" was helpful political theater this morning, he is also a moron.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. Okay then, I'll argue

You called Rangel a "duplicitous manipulative liar".

Nice. Feel better?

You also said: "If Rangel thinks "Democrats want to draft your kids" was helpful political theater this morning, he is also a moron." That's your opinion and worth nothing. Its a strawman at best, and stupid, most likley. Where do you get off even suggesting what he thinks.

Watch out now .... that jerky knee of yours might better be looked at by a doctor.

Now I'm done arguing. If you want to continue, enjoy it as a monologue.

[endarkenment]

26. You told me what Rangel thinks.

"You do know that Charlie has been pushing this draft thing for a while now, right?

You know he is doing it SOLELY to make a point, right?

You do know that he is NOT in favor of a draft, right?"

So he proposes a draft bill that he votes against. That makes him a duplicitous manipulative liar. In my opinion of course.

The moron part comes from the way his little stunt is being played. "Democrats want to draft your kids". Brilliant. Who could have expected that the bullshit media system would pick that angle?

[tomp]

77. proud member of the lynch mob supports you.

(and a constituent of rangel's)

the poster won't argue because there is no reasonable argument for rangel. the whole thing falls apart under a modicum of scrutiny.

[Nite Owl]

10. K&R n/t

[xultar]

11. I can't believe people around here didn't get it. Makes me wonder about DU

and what is going on around here.

[endarkenment]

14. A lot of us with kids just don't share rangel's sense of humor. nt.

[xultar]

21. It has nothing to do with humor. If you understood it you wouldn't have posted that.

[endarkenment]

23. I get it. It ain't that deep.

What you don't appear to understand is what happened across america this morning. The Bullshit Media System had a field day on the morning propaganda shows. "Democrats want to Draft Your Kids". My wife was freaking horrified. Even after I explained to her that it was just one Democrat and he is an asshole and isn't serious about his own proposal (the joke part, which you didn't get), she was upset. What about the bedrooms this morning where there was nobody there to interpret the crap spewing out of the tv?

Stupid manipulative counter-productive bullshit.

[xultar]

32. Here is a post you need to read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2767588&mesg_id=2767588

[endarkenment]

37. Oh they woke up all right

"Democrats want to kill your children". Great. Brilliant strategy.

[xultar]

42. As opposed to the kids getting killed right now? Don't be daft. Kids are getting killed NOW!

So, the kids getting killed now...we don't give a fuck those are freebies.

No one cares about war or aids unless it hits them personally. It appears that most DUers feel the same. As long as it is someone elses kids and not mine then don't rock the boat.

I gotcha.

[Sparkly]

62. No. Again, Rangel voted AGAINST this.

It's "Rangel (not 'Democrats') say EITHER/OR -- Either stop the expansion of ill-conceived wars, or we're headed for a draft. Which do you want?"

He's putting it on the table.

[enough already]

40. Please don't call this a "botched joke" by Rangel

I can't take any more of our jokes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. It is humor.

The idea is, Rangel proposes a draft, Republicans stop it- therefore the Republicans are chickenhawks.

Ha ha ha.

It ain't worth the paper it's printed on.

[xultar]

30. Here's a post you need to read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2767588&mesg_id=2767588

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Read it. Responded to it. Disagreed with it.

[Autonomy]

34. Ditto.

[Martin Eden]

52. Oh, I get it ...

... but most Americans, when they get it, will see it as a cheap political stunt. Sponsoring a bill that you don't want passed is inherently dishonest -- even when you're up front about not wanting it passed.

The Democratic Party needs to be straightforward. Rangel's tactic here is bass ackwards.

[PVnRT]

75. Clearly we aren't as smart as you

Whatever :eyes:

We do get it, and we still think he's an ass for even bringing it up.

[tomp]

78. and those opposed to rangel can't believe you either.

where does that leave us?

[Mythsaje]

12. Nah, we just want to lynch the folks who think it's a good idea...

Because it ain't.

[Raiden]

13. Don't patronize me!

You do know that Charlie has been pushing this draft thing for a while now, right?
Does that make any difference? It was politically stupid then (and I said so then), and it's still politically stupid now!

You know he is doing it SOLELY to make a point, right?
I'm more than aware of the point. It's a valid one, but the MSM will not spin it that way. The public will hear "DRAFT" and ignore everything that comes after that. We can't piss the public off just after they elected us overwhelmingly to solve the Iraq Mess. They support us already...No draft necessary.

You do know that he is NOT in favor of a draft, right?
Then don't push legislation calling for it. I wouldn't try to get people to support abortion by passing draconian anti-abortion laws; I wouldn't try to pass draconian drug laws. It's not only stupid politically which may turn off the people who voted us into office, but it is also counter-productive!!!

You do know that the proverbial Hell dwelling snowball has a better chance at survival than this bill has of passage, right?
That's not how the public will see it when the right-wing associates Democrats with the draft. Would it really be worth it if we lost the next election in a landslide, just so we could get people to philosophize on just who fights our wars? It's not worth it.

[Stinky The Clown]

16. I'm not patronizing you

I'm calling the people who think Rangel is the embodiment of evil silly and misguided.

Maybe you need a shoe fitting?

[Cocoa]

17. lynch mob?

how dare you. :mad:

[still_one]

22. That you even have to post this, shows what a disaster this political "theater" is

here at DU, most are on the same page, against the war, and the draft, and if the response here is so negative, it will be a field day for the republicans and the MSM.

If you think the "right story" will get out, I wouldn't count on it.

Even this morning on Bloomberg, A BUSINESS CHANNEL, they were reporting that a democrat, Charlie Rangel, wants to bring back the draft.

Isn't it always fun to go on the defensive? Not only that isn't smart, it ISN'T good politics


Watch the diversion begin

[solara]

27. Hear! Hear! K&R n/t

[LynneSin]

28. It disappoints me to see people here diss a major Anti-war advocate

Rangel rocks.

And god forbid his bill gets passed - EVERYONE gets drafted, not just those who are poor and without connections. But it won't pass

[MADem]

45. And someone who KNOWS what war is like.

He went through absolute HELL in Korea. Has the PH and Bronze Star to show for it, too.

He knows how much war sucks. Of course, some people just don't understand that the way you discuss all the issues surrounding a war, from troop strength to readiness to mission responsibilities to the total defense picture, is to start with a subject that makes people sit up. Because if it doesn't have potential to affect an individual, or their family, they frankly don't pay attention and could give a flying fuck!

I'm with you--Charlie is the best.

[xultar]

50. Yeah.. Apparently Rangel isn't as pure as some here. Isn't that funny!

[ThomCat]

29. I explained this to my coworkers today.

They now think that maybe he has a point. :)

[Chorophyll]

31. Thanks for posting this.

Charles Rangel is a national treasure. He's not my congressman, but we love him in NY.

[Autonomy]

33. HOW DARE HE MAKE A POINT

BY MAKING AMERICANS TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE WAR THEY SUPPORTED INTO EXISTENCE!!@! :sarcasm:

[endarkenment]

43. It is not the point he was trying to make it is the way he tried to make it.

Rangel's point has become "democrats want to draft your kids". Not his intended point, one hopes, but the point that has been made by his bi-annual blunder.

[Autonomy]

68. They would still blame Bush

for this now-moot point.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

69. Rangel's point has become "democrats want to draft your kids".

Only by opponents who continue to spin it the wrong way.

Why not stop reinforcing their meme and counter them by supporting what he is trying to do (and had been trying to do for many years)?

Blunder, schmunder.

[Sparkly]

70. Oooh, Let's be careful of taking a stand -- they might spin it wrong and hurt us!! Ooohh!!!

We gotta be careful! If we do or say anything, raise issues and debate them, try to illustrate GOP insanity, or tell the TRUTH, the Big Bad RNC might SPIN it wrong! And that'd HURT us!!

I'm askeered!! Let's all hide in the corner and say NOthing so they don't misconstrue it!! :scared: :sarcasm:

(Wrinkle, I'm agreeing with you!)

[endarkenment]

73. yeah we should ignore how our clever stunts will play on tv

good thinking. Crisp, clear, like the november air this morning. So what if surburban families across america yesterday were horrified to learn that Democrats Want To Kill Your Children, Charlie made a brilliant clever rhetorical point. We are too clever by half.

The people voted to end the war and the Democrats offered to draft their kids. Brilliant. Oh so clever.

[hlthe2b]

36. thank you Husb2Sparkly.... This has been driving me nuts....

It seems that a very large number of DUers just don't "get it." and the ensuing circling firing squard is really annoying, coming on the heels of the Murtha v Hoyer fights. :shrug:

I found that some of the same people, who had lauded Charlie Rangel so much in the past--including his comments re: Cheney recently-- were sadly, the first to line up to lynch him for taking a strong stand against the continued carnage. By bringing up the draft, Charlie brought home the consequences of what the Bushes* refuse to face--and in a way that hits home to nearly every adult American... Why are we so quick to abandon those among us who have shown some courage and leadership--and without taking time to understand the intent and strategy behind the stance?

[LittleClarkie]

38. Much like Kerry's flubbed joke, it matters little what he MEANT

so much as what it sounds like he meant, and how the other side can spin it all to hell.

Hopefully, as with Kerry's fuckup, the public will be smart enough to figure out what Rangel means and not just think that the Dems wanna draft people.

Even so, it's a convoluted way to get one's point across. In 2004, when we were accusing the Right of being ready to start a draft, my Conservative friends were able to say that the only draft proposal out there was from a Democrat. It's not easy explaining what Rangel REALLY meant by what he was doing. It was alittle like trying to explain "I was for it before I was against it."

[Old and In the Way]

44. Who'd vote for it?

This could be the 1st bill in a long time that has complete bi-partisan negative support. It would destroy the justification that there is a compelling national interest for us to remain in Iraq.

[MADem]

46. Why, how dare you illustrate Rep. Rangel's point so astutely and concisely!!!

You're allowing common sense and logic to INTRUDE on the discussion...why, we can't have that, can we?

Heh, heh....

[David Zephyr]

47. Well, I will always be a fan of Charlie Rangel.

He has and always will have my respect.

[Strawman]

48. What's Charlie's position in the House leadership again?

One that qualifies him to set the political agenda and dominate the news cycle with this strategically brilliant act of "political theater?"

I don't recall him being elected Speaker, Minority Leader or Whip.

[IndyOp]

64. Rangel is head of "Ways & Means" he is taking over Cheney's office --

no shit. Cheney took over the office of the all-powerful Chair of Ways & Means in the last Congress and now Rangel has let it be known that he wants the Ways & Means office...

He is powerful.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[cassiepriam]

49. The American people couldn't understand Kerry's joke, how

are they going to understand this?

[xultar]

51. another kick for those who don't get it.

[Raiden]

53. Who exactly are those "who don't get it"?

How condescending can you be?

I get it. I get that Charlie Rangel is making the Democratic Party look like we want to re-instate the draft...That's a horrendously unpopular position, and it gives the Republican Party just the fodder it needs to attack us. I don't see an upside to Rangel's stupid political tactic.

Regardless of its point (which I understand, and it is valid), the MSM will spin it as "A Democrat has proposed legislation to re-instate the draft..." People aren't going to be happy when they hear that meme. Charlie Rangel is just giving the MSM the fodder they need to destroy the recently empowered Dems. They tried to do it with the whole Pelosi/Hoyer/Murtha issue, but this one is even more politically precarious. If the Republicans get the opportunity to grandstand on this issue then we may lose support. We are the Anti-War Party and that's why we won this election BIG TIME. Now we're starting out on the defensive because of legislation one of our own wants to propose?

Rule #1 in politics: Never go on the defensive.

Thanks Charlie...

[Sparkly]

67. "I get that Charlie Rangel is making the Democratic Party look like we want to re-instate the draft"

Anybody who thinks the Democratic Party wants to re-instate the draft DOESN'T GET IT.

Anybody who thinks the debate is going to be about the need for a draft, with Rangel leading the charge, DOESN'T GET IT.

That's NOT what he's doing or saying.

Now granted, people get soundbytes and aren't fully aware, which seems to be what you're referring to. The public at large is pretty somnabulent about what's going on in DC, and eventually something seeps in, right or wrong. (It took this long for them to realize Saddam wasn't involved with 9/11? It took this long for them to realize BushCo "tax cuts" benefit only the top 2%? It took this long for them to realize most Republicans are frauds when it comes to ethics and values?)

THIS will wake them up. "What the Hell -- a draft?!?" People, even here, are freaking out. I think it's good that it's getting attention.

It's NOT COMPLICATED to say that Rangel is NOT advocating a draft. It's not complicated to say that he voted AGAINST his own bill. It's NOT COMPLICATED to say that the choice is between this insane foreign policy in the "Global War on Terror," OR, a draft. Inevitably, that IS the choice.

Rangel's daring the people who want to talk tough about war: Put your votes where your mouth is. Put your families' lives where your rhetoric is. He's saying the chickenhawks in DC, and their contributors, aren't the ones whose kids find the military the only way to become a kindergarten teacher, or the only way to get out of a destitute neighborhood, or the only way to get ahead in any other regard.

And HE IS RIGHT on that.

The RNC and its media will always "make the Democrats look like" something or other. I don't think we should let their fallacies push us around. There will always be people who choose to believe the lies; but Rangel has a point, and it's an important point -- and it forces a VERY very important debate, even among the usually apathetic.

[Raiden]

74. This isn't the kind of attention we want or need

Fortunantly Pelosi and Hoyer realize that. I cannot believe that there are some here who think that touching an issue as salient as the draft will not come back to bite us in the ass. I'm getting sick and fucking tired of supporters of Rangel's blatantly stupid position implying that the people who realize how politically dangerous such a position is just "don't get it". It's the kind of condescension I'd expect from Republicans.

WTF is talk of a draft going to accomplish besides making the Democrats look like bait-and-switching fools. When people supported the Republicans in '04, our response was "get ready for a draft". Here we are now, and still the only one making the draft an issue is Charlie Rangel. It's stupid, it's politically naive, and I don't want anything to do with it. The American people are with us on the Iraq issue now, let's not push them back into the Republican's open arms. We are making it much too easy for the Republican Party and the MSM to associate us with a draft and I for one do not want that association. This is a lose/lose situation for us. On one hand, we do not get a draft, but people will remember that it was the Dems--not the Reps--who pushed that legislation (Goodbye youth vote; Goodbye concerned parent vote). On the other hand, we get a draft. Rich kids still do not fight, and now all working and middle class kids have to worry about getting their number called. If you honestly think that talk of reinstating the draft will make war hawks change their mind, think again. Just look back to the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. All those conflicts had drafts and it didn't change a thing. Having a draft only encourages the powers-at-be to be more irresponsible. More troops equals more cannon fodder.

If you want to lose our newly-acquired majority because we wanted to philosophize over reinstating the draft, that's your business. We have nothing to gain and everything to lose from such an obviously stupid position.

[wryter2000]

54. Stark?

As is Fortney "Pete" Stark? He's from around here and a damned good liberal. That must be another Stark.

[Stinky The Clown]

65. Honestly?

I don't know who it was. It only says 'Stark" and by italicising it, says (s)he's a Dem.

[wryter2000]

80. Very curious

He's Oakland's other Congressman. He used to be mine before I moved to Barbara Lee country. A good guy. There are no pro-draft people around here.

[Zhade]

57. Being against a stupid idea that reinforces the meme that this war must be fought...

...gambles with other people's lives, ensures more on both sides will die before the war ends, and makes the party appear to want to draft kids immediately after an election in which the American people who now oppose the war voted as such, is being part of a lynch mob?

I expect better out of you, man.

[citizen snips]

58. You do know the draft bill has no chance of winning, right?

so whats the damn point in introducing the bill?

[Sparkly]

60. The point is the debate.

The point is: If the American people or the American Chimperor believe we are able to go into Iran, Syria, North Korea, and everyplace else in the "global war on terror" without a draft, they're wrong.

The point is: Correct the foreign policy, or a draft is inevitable.

The point is to get people to debate it, and vote: and a vote for NO DRAFT is a vote to FIX THE STUPID PNAC POLICY. (A vote FOR the draft without exceptions is, of course, requiring people to put their families' lives where their mouth is, so to speak. You think they're willing to do that? Of course they aren't.)

[sandyd921]

59. Do most people know that

Charlie Rangel's proposal involves more than a military draft and includes national non-military service?

[GoneOffShore]

61. As always the voice of reason

Even when you're not, you are.

I figured out what Rangel was up to, but didn't have your eloquence to phrase it.

That's why I love to read your posts. That and the clown at the bottom.

[Sparkly]

63. I don't think everyone understands the difference between "The Draft" and Rangel's "Draft Proposal."

It's been argued to death here as if these were one and the same.

Edited to 'splain: I'm against a military draft; I'm for Rangel's draft proposal. Also, I'm against a military draft now because it isn't necesssary and we need to make sure it doesn't become necessary; same reasons Rangel's introducing this. And, for the record, I think the idea of SOME required service to the country (not necessarily military) isn't a bad idea at all. Considering what our generation went through, I'm sure new generations could manage it, learn from it, and and make a contribution that in the process, connects them with our country.

[DemBones DemBones]

66. Thank you! nt

[Doremus]

71. WE GET IT ALREADY.

You, however, are either glossing over or ignoring the other viewpoint:

Probably most of the public -- or at least those who watch or read MSM -- will not get it because the MSM is not spinning it that way. They are sensationalizing the fact that a Democrat has proposed a draft because the military is overextended fighting Bush's war.

To most of the MSM-watching public, Dems (or at least ONE Dem) now look like mush-mouthed crazies who portend to be against the war but are now inexplicably promoting its escalation vis-a-vis the conscription of extra troops.

John Q. Public doesn't do nuance -- or have we forgotten already?

[Sparkly]

72. So shall we cower in fear of RNC and MSM spin?

As I said in #70 -- they'll spin ANYthing.

As I've said elsewhere -- this is VERY SIMPLE.

As obvious all over DU -- some people do NOT get it, and believe Rangel wants to reinstate the draft; moreover, they fear his bill might accomplish that!!

And it's not a huge number of Democrats who are proposing or supporting this -- if anybody doesn't get it, Rangel will take the fall in their eyes. (But not in his district. He believes his constituents get it. I trust he's right.)

[tomp]

76. you're wrong. and people are getting the wrong message.

"If you don't think this is nothing more or less than political theater to make a very good point, then you're just buying the RW spin."

i haven't heard a thing about what the right wing thinks about this. i opposed it from the get go on principle.

"On the draft specifically, they thought it was a great idea because they said it would **force the privileged in our country to serve, too** and that 'if you support the war, then you should be willing to fight in it or have your kid do so'."

that's true, but a draft covers everyone, not just people who support the war. a person who DOES NOT support a war should not be forced to participate. people are NOT getting the other side of the coin.

no draft of any kind under any circumstances! when people get that point, i'll shut up.