The Dean [supporter] Dilemna

[mrgorth]

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040216&s=cooper

<snip>
The dilemma of where-to-go when Dean pulls out was emotionally debated this weekend among a group of "Cyclists for Dean," who had come from Los Angeles to pedal and canvass the precincts of Tucson. "I don't think Kerry has much integrity, given how he voted on the war," said one volunteer as he mounted his bike. "But if I have to, I'll work for him just as hard as I am for Dean. The point is to defeat Bush."

But his canvassing partner sharply disagreed. "I can't say that. I just can't say that," she said strapping on her helmet. "I'll vote for Kerry if I have to. But I won't work for him like this. I don't love Kerry like I love Dean. Kerry can be voted for. But Kerry can't be loved."
<snip>

[LuminousX]

1. Kerry can be voted for. But Kerry can't be loved.

Nothing sums it up better for me than that statement.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. Kerry can and must be loved by many

or he wouldn't have won Iowa, and NH, and ...... But no matter. Loving anyone is not a prerequisite for support.

[Ninga]

6. I take great exception with the thought

that people who voted for Kerry must love Kerry.

No no no!

Sorry to say, many folks just went with him because of what they precieved him to be, not what he is.

As Tina would say, "What does love have to do with it?"

[Nicholas_J]

36. Same thing can easily be applied

To Dean supporters. There is absolutely nothing in Denas record that reflects his actual performance as Governor. there are a number of Vermonters who has stated that this has always been Deans way of running. talking the talk when it comes to gneralities, but whenever there is actually an action he must take, coming down on the side of conservatism. He has never actually fought for a social issue while he was in office, in fact, he would avoid making a comittment on any social legislation until he saw how much support it had. And in most cases, if he supported a piece of legislation and a large corporation came out in opposition to it, Dean would switch and veto the legislation.

In ordfer to find consistancy with Deans record as Governor, and his campaign platform, virtually every statement he has made in the past or action he has taken or failed to take has to have an extrmely comvoluted explanation.

Sorry, John Kerry can be loved by many of his supporters for the fact that he is the candidate with the most consistant past record of supporting liberal issues. Even Kucinich, due to his past record on right to life and related issues cannot approach Kerry for Liberalism, Clark is too new to the field nad has a record of supporting Republicans in the past, though I dont hold that against him, his record of consistancy is not as firm as a result of this. Edwards, new to office, still does not have as high a record of supporting liberal causes as Kerry. Kerry can claim greatest consistancy of record in opposing conservatism and Republican abuses.

[NashVegas]

41. "He has never actually fought for a social issue while he was in office"

in fact, he would avoid making a comittment on any social legislation until he saw how much support it had.

Yes, the civil unions bill support was so popular the guy wore a bulletproof vest, went around to townhall meetings and got screamed at.

[Eloriel]

51. People went for him because

1. He stole Dean's message (so they THINK they can get that too)

2. And then went on to convince them that he was more electable (yet another falsehood) when THIS year beating Bush is THE #1 concern of voters. "Kerry is more electable" was a full 56% of kerry's vote in NH.

The sad thing is, people not voting their preference this year is going to mean that they ALSo probably won't be able to oust Bush.

[blm]

54. HAHAHAH...Kerry is a liberal for 35 years. He didn't steal anything from

that centrist, corporatist, charlatan Dean.

[LuminousX]

8. Wow, talk about missing the point. This is a Dean Supporter perspective

not a general population perspective.

She, as a Dean supporter, can vote for Kerry but can't love Kerry. That applies to me, as a Dean supporter. We are talking about specifics, not generalities.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

Not missing anything

People can love whomever they want however. It's nice to see they will vote for Kerry no matter the emotions attached.

[LuminousX]

16. But you made your statement as if it were a refutation

At least I interpretted it as a refutation of the sentiment "Kerry can't be loved" which it would be if the person was speaking in generalities. She wasn't. She was speaking as a Dean supporter so I guess I'm just confused about the context of your statement.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. Votes are all the "love" we need

I think I'm just saying it's irrelevant what is behind a vote, so long as it's there.

[LuminousX]

24. To the Dean supporter in the article, the difference is in the campaigning

And what she is willing to do for Dean and not willing to do for Kerry.

But you are right, at the end of the day, as long as she votes for the Dem, that is all that matters.

[dsc]

26. No it isn't

You need people to make the calls, drive the voters, and do the other grunt work of campaigns. You need people to donate money too. You dis us, and that is what your posts did, at your peril.

[ShimokitaJer]

34. And that's why you'll never understand Dean supporters

nt

[Casablanca]

28. Love over tactics ...

What the Dean supporter is saying (and I can speak for her because I'm right with her on that remark) is that support for who the candidate _is_ as opposed to what he represents is far more solid than a tactical alliance and is non-transferrable.

Sorry Kerry supporters, but from your explanations of why you support Kerry, your candidate just doesn't have - and will _never_ have, even with an ABB vote - what Dean has in his support base. Dean didn't play triangulation tactics for that support, he earned it by taking risks and trusting the voters even when it wasn't politically expedient.

He became the person people wanted to support, not just the candidate that people had to support to "dump Bush".

[Larkspur]

39. They didn't "love" Kerry, else they'd donate to his campaign so that he

would not have had to take out that $6 million loan on his Beacon Hills mansion.

To those who think that Dean supporters should fund the general nominee, like we did Dean's campaign, will be in for a rude awakening when those dollars don't come in and Kerry, should he win the nomination, use what the DNC already raised to pay off his loan instead of attacking Bush.

Oh, I'll vote for Kerry, should he be the nominee, but will only help my DTC in the general election. I will not put forth the effort and energy for Kerry that I did for Dean.

[JNelson6563]

40. Are you new to politics?

Seems like it. Do you think Iowa was an outpouring of love for Kerry or did Gephardt giving his votes over to Kerry have anything to do with it?

Oy!

Julie

[shance]

48. Wow. That sounds rather dictatorial.

Sometimes I wonder where you Kerry guys come from.

[angryinoville]

3. I agree...

[Anwen]

5. My sentiments exactly.

I will vote for Kerry if he is the nominee, but it will not be with love.

[MaddogTerp]

7. I don't even think he can be voted for

Dean is the man -- no dilemma here. Maybe if was Kuchinich, but not Kerry. I just get the feeling that, everything else aside, Kerry just doesn't care the way Dean does.

[blm]

4. I LOVE Kerry's long record of liberalism and his exposure of corruption

in government. I LOVE his history making attacks on Nixon, Reagan and Bush. I lOVE his elegant use of language.

I LOATHE Dean's long record of corporatism and centrism.

I LOATHE his coopting the language of angry internet message boards just to mask his actual record of compromising corporatism.

[LuminousX]

9. That's great

But you weren't a Dean supporter before, so this article wouldn't represent your beliefs.

[blm]

30. I know, I know. Liberals aren't worthy of the love from centrists.

I should know my place by now. You centrists who love the centrist corporate types like Dean deserve your own thread. I'll leave you to it.


;)

[Anwen]

12. This is the Dean supporters dilemma...

not the Kerry lovers dilemma ;-)

[blm]

29. Just sorry that you centrists can't LOVE us liberals.

It really breaks my heart. ;)

[kcwayne]

17. I loath Kerry's spineless whimpering and rollover in the face

of the Republican steamrolling of the Democrats with the Patriot Act, and IWR. He left Democrats unrepresented.

He was unaccounted for in the greatest constitutional crises we have faced in my lifetime, why should I believe he will be any better when next called upon for to engage in courageous leadership?

[blm]

27. Dean SUGGESTED a Patriot Act days after 9-11. Sanctimony need not apply.

Dean supported Biden-Lugar use of force which was barely different than IWR.

Vote for Kucinich if you're sincere about your outrage.

[kcwayne]

31. There's nothing sanctimonious about observing that Kerry laid down

.My comments were directed at Kerry, and I didn't say anything about Dean. Kerry's lack of political courage stands on its own without the need to contrast it to Dean.

[MaddogTerp]

37. That's the fact, jack

:yourock:
Dean is awesome, and Kerry ... lacks something ... hmmm ... what could it be?

[library_max]

55. So apparently, the only Democrats in the entire US being represented

were in Wisconsin, because Russ Feingold was the one and only Democrat to vote against the PATRIOT ACT. How many times are you guys going to pretend that the PATRIOT ACT was entirely John Kerry's fault? A) the whole country was going nuts at the time, it was the week after 9/11, and B) if he had voted against it, it would have passed just the same.

[Virgil]

25. What has he exposed

Has he exposed that the DEA maintains cannabis as a Schedule 1 substance that has barred not only its use of what whould be a legal plant anyway, is a complet lie. A schedule 1 substance must meet three criteria under a corrupt free placement. Cannabis meets none. The placement of Cannabis in schedule 1 is a complete lie. It has prevented every University and researcher in the country from researching the potential of at least 61 cannabinoids that will define safety in medicine.

The Schedule One Lie over Cannabis is what prevents doctor's from prescribing cannabis in its many forms and compositiions. Now get this. What makes cannabis so dangerous to pill companies is its safety. Under a do no harm philosopy, cannabis would be used first in medical applications. Cannabis also reduces the opiate requirements when they are for pain. We have been lied to my whole life about cannabis and we are being lied to now.

This has blocked science and imposed a federal tyranny on many. It is all a lie and the GW Pharmaceutical Extracts from the UK will make all prohibitionist bend on the subject of clinical cannabis. Has Kerry exposed that the NIH has spent its $28 billion annual budget bent by the pill companies and has not researched what was always known to be a Miracle Plant even after the 1974 research proved it could prevent cancer- not all of course, but some.

The entire system is corrupt. The regulated have conquered the regulators and the program NOW has exposed more than Kerry ever has or ever will.

[no name no slogan]

49. Yeah, but...

if your main concern is medical marijuana, there's not much difference between Dean and Kerry. NEITHER has stated that he would allow the use of medical marijuana. Dean has said he's open to "more studies" on it, but has stopped short of endorsing the use of medical marijuana.

Only Dennis Kucinich has said that he will allow the use of medical marijuana. NOBODY ELSE has come out as clearly in favor of its use as DK has.

Oh, but he's "unelectable", right? Yup. Sure. Fine. Whatever.

[blm]

53. wrong...Kerry is for legalizing Medical marijuana.

He got an A- from the pot group that gave DK an A+.

[eileen_d]

10. I think people who need to "love" their candidates

need to take a serious look at what's lacking in their own personal lives.

As another DUer said: Politics isn't therapy.

[Ninga]

13. But eileen you need therapy to be in politics.

[LuminousX]

15. What if it isn't a need, what if it just happens?

[eileen_d]

19. Well, I wouldn't deny people a "right" to love their candidates

or to express that love.

[jpgray]

11. No one is entitled to your love or your vote

But I'm sure passionate about this election, and I'd definitely like to convince you to vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever it is. Dean isn't done yet.

[leftwingnut]

14. as a Dean supporter....

I don't think there is a dilemna...I am backing Kerry 100%- no questions. I have been spent the last year questioning why he voted for the war and honestly at this point...it's still disappointing...but does NOT matter.

I didn't think Kerry had a chance against bush* even 2 months ago...but the more I see of him the more I like his chances of pounding bush*. If Kerry can beat bush*, that is all I need!

"Like father, like son...one term and you are DONE!"-Kerry

[Egnever]

20. Like father, like son...one term and you are DONE

Err ghep

one of the many reasons not to like kerry.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. Yeah. If Sharpton has said it (surprised he hasn't) you'd be lovin' it.

whatever.

[killbotfactory]

18. Kerry ain't seeing dime one from me

I'll only vote for him if he has a chance of beating Bush in my state, and only because I'm voting against Bush.

[DianeK]

23. sorry, i think they are all trying to mess with the minds of

dean supporters, i don't believe the polls, i don't believe the announced outcome of the primary's, i am sticking with dean and i will not support kerry or anyone else they pick for us..i will be writing dean's name in

[pacifictiger]

33. Dean inspires me

with his common sense, fiscal conservative, social liberal, straight talk, wheras I look at Kerry and see the same old ho-hum politics as usual.
I'll vote for Kerry if he is chosen at the convention only to knock Bush of his perch, but for me it will be the best of two less than stellar options.

[DinahMoeHum]

32. "You don't have to love your high school prom partner to dance"

- old high school saying

We don't to love a candidate - we only have to RESPECT a candidate.
Love has nothing to do with it.

Kerry was my first choice, back in early 2002, but after that IWR vote, I switched to Dean. In a way, many people (including myself) have used Dean as a "stand-in" for Kerry.

Bottom line: if Dean drops out and Kerry goes on to win the party nomination, I will bust my ass not only to help Kerry win the general election, but for the Senate and Congressional races in my state (NY)

Anybody But Bush (and Cheney). Eyes on the prize.

:kick:

[NashVegas]

43. And Therein Lies the Problem

I respect Kerry's ability to campaign, his "mojo" if you will. But that's about it.

[shance]

50. I have little respect for Kerry unfortunately and election appears

contrived to me.

I can not help it. It is what I feel instinctively. If it is not a fair and accurate election, why should I feel compelled to vote for someone that may have had something to do with the overall outcome which may not have been fair.

The results to me seem "consistently inconsistent" and I have seen enough to produce doubt in my mind of the overall integrity of the caucuses as well as the establishment Dems that seem more compelled to manipulate an outcome in this election, than to let the American people decide.

So how can I vote for someone that I do not believe is really working in the best interest of our party?

[OneBlueSky]

35. in the most recent (2/23) issue, which I just got today . . .

there's an article by William Greider (for whom I have the utmost respect) raising some cautions about a Kerry nomination . . . he ends the article, however, with this: "If Kerry wins the White House," a disenchanted campaign strategist told me, "it will be like electing the editorial board of the New York Times: totally establishment -- but a whole lot better that The Weekly Standard."

[JFKvsGWB]

38. If Kerry is the nominee, we ALL owe it to ourselves and our children

to work our tails off for him.

[LuminousX]

42. No. He'll get my Anti-Bush vote. That is it.

He has to earn everything else.

[NashVegas]

44. BWA-HA-HAHA

Please. Speak for yourself.

[RetroLounge]

45. Thanks for telling me what I owe my Children

:boring:

[mondo joe]

46. Not Much of a Dilemna

I was, and in some ways am, a major Dean supporter. First candidate in a long time to get me really excited.

It now looks like it will be Kerry who gets the nomination.

Will I work as hard for Kerry as I would for Dean? Probably not - but I'm going to try to be open to the possibility.

And I think if it comes to that Dr. Dean will throw his support behind Kerry - and when that happens I may be inspired to try harder myself.

[mitchum]

47. What in the hell is wrong with people who love candidates?

I just don't get that. I respect, and have worked very hard for my candidate, but loving a political candidate is just silly (and slightly disturbing) Same goes for identifying yourself as a "fan" or "follower"

Kerry 2004

[library_max]

52. Not really a dilemma, IMHO.

Some will go one way and some will go the other. Different people approach politics on different levels. Some are more emotional than others. There's nothing wrong with that and no good reason to criticize it, or to disparage those who are more hardheaded and less passionate.

Then, too, many of the emotional Dean supporters will probably feel differently after they've had a chance to grieve and vent. What we can all love is our country. And it needs to be rid of George W. Bush.