Solution to Kerry Win, Dean Disillusionment

[liberalmike27]

Kerry has already hinted at it, if he finally gets the nod, why not go for the anti-South strategy, where he adopts Dean as his Vice President, and his whole organization (there are a lot of us out here) as well as the monetary contributions of us little-people.

This solves the disillusionment problem, as we Dean supporters will have something to do and not feel obliged to go back to the Green Party, or just not vote, or just not be involved at all and go in and reluctantly pull Kerry's lever. We have our room reserved until November anyway, we can keep working for Kerry/Dean, sending our letters, and being a part of the process. Hopefully, Dean can keep Kerry honest, and like Gore, can work on cutting the deficit in a fair way, one that doesn't cut the poor, and enhance the rich.

It also works to solve the stupid "southern strategy" thing, just go for New York, and California, and all of the North, perhaps Louisiana and Florida, and ignore the ignorant South (I live here in Mobile,AL, so I know). Win the North and a couple of big states, save a ton of campaign cash, by ignoring the South, and you don't have to depend on a strategy that hasn't worked too much of the time anyway, adopting one, or the other (VP or Pres) as a southerner to appease the South.

It didn't make sense, nor did it seem like a good idea when I first thought of it, but when you look at the situation as it is, it doesn't seem so crazy. Besides, Dean is in second place too!

[JVS]

1. Interesting

[David__77]

2. Platform is as important as the people.

I will vote for Dean. I would like to see him become president. But presuming he is not the nominee, he will urge his supporters to follow him in supporting the winner. That's what we must do to forge a united front actually capable of countering the threat to this country. We need to "stay and fight" in the Democratic Party. Progressives must not abandon the party to the neoconservative elements and "free trade" deregulation proponents. It's the people's party, and the people must claim it. Dean has shown as the way. This is a multi-pronged task. The Green Party is not the right vehicle--it's that simple.

[w4rma]

3. Dean may make a good attack dog for the ticket. But, I'm not in favor of

any "anti-South" ticket.

I'm a southerner, btw. (Virginia)

[liberalmike27]

11. Kerry

Kerry isn't going to win any Southern states, I can tell you that. People are poor, stupid, religious, and somewhat masochist here, from what I can tell, and I've lived here about 45 of my 48 years. They can't even tell you that the Democratic Party tends to be better economically for the poor. They vote based on the thought that Republicans will carry on their racist beliefs, or against abortion, sometimes against candidates who want some sensible anti-gun laws. Dean has those, advocating state gun laws, and Kerry could adapt that, if it isn't already his position. Democrats have been foolishly wasting time on that gun issue for some time.

Why waste time trying to get votes when we are going to lose here anyway. Make the South irrelvent, win the big states except Texas, and the southwest. It's a good winning strategy. Help the South, in spite of itself.

Spread it around, if you like the idea. I think it can work.

[On the Road]

4. If Kerry Does This, I'll be Impressed

It would be a true party unity ticket. There is a looming split between activists and party leadership. My impression is that Kerry pays too much attention to conventional wisdom to actually consider asking Dean. Plus there must be a certain amount of bad blood there with teh mutual attacks.

There might be a good surrogate for Dean, but I can't think of any.

[Raya]

7. Kerry Camp has already offered a fig by saing they would consider it.

[TexasSissy]

5. What would Dean bring to the ticket? As opposed to someone else?

Edwards would bring southerners and more conservative voters. Clark would absolutely tie down the military vote, as well as bring in southerners and some conservative independents. Graham would bring in Floridians.

Dean would bring in, who? Nor'easterners? Kerry's a no'easterner, so he's already got that. Liberals/progressives? Kerry's already got plenty of progressives voting for him, but I suppose a few more might go his way, as opposed to voting for a 3rd party or not voting at all. Moderates? Dean's appeal is not to moderates, I think. But Kerry has an appeal to moderates.

Dean wouldn't bring any critical state (he hasn't won any of the primaries or caucuses).

And Dean carries with him the highest unfavorable rating of all the candidates, which might hurt the ticket.

I just don't see this happening.

[Ninga]

10. dear TexasSissy

Dean would bring us.

[Ficus]

13. by "us"

I assume you mean Dean supporters.

Judging by the results thus far, I can't say that the Dean organization brings much. I don't mean to knock your efforts, that isn't what I'm saying at all.

It just seems to me that a lot of the supposed support Dean had was merely a mirage. I think Kerry will be able to generate a whole lot of campaign volunteers and contributions in the GE just because of the ABB attitude in the country. Perhaps I'm wrong...

[liberalmike27]

17. What?

I assume you mean Dean supporters.

Judging by the results thus far, I can't say that the Dean organization brings much. I don't mean to knock your efforts, that isn't what I'm saying at all.

It just seems to me that a lot of the supposed support Dean had was merely a mirage. I think Kerry will be able to generate a whole lot of campaign volunteers and contributions in the GE just because of the ABB attitude in the country. Perhaps I'm wrong...

Lets see, about 60 million in small contributions, and until the media destroyed us, through the mischaracterization of the scream speech, along with a host of other smaller techniques, we were leading in all the polls. The media has never been favorable, where do you think our lead came from? Our efforts, our letter-writing. You are sadly misinformed if you think we contributed nothing. We are the davids, fighting the media establishment goliaths. One can't rightly expect we can fight a force so powerful, yet still, he takes one second place after another, even with the force of ten or twelve networks pushing Kerry, and against Dean.

Dude, your just wrong on that score. The Deaniacs are a powerful force to be reckoned with. How do you think the message got out there about the media bias? That's us baby, that's me and 200,000 other meet up members.

[Ficus]

18. woah now

calm down there sport.

I'll respond:
Lets see, about 60 million in small contributions, and until the media destroyed us, though the mischaracterization of the scream speech, along with a host of other smaller techniqes, we were leading in all the polls.

Actually, Dean had finished 3rd here in Iowa before he even went off at the Val Air that night. Even besides that, he had been slipping in the polls before that the past week or so in Iowa. That's because people don't make up their minds about who to vote for until right before the election, as in the last 5 days.

But of course, it's all the media's fault that Democratic primary voters didn't support Dean.

The media has never been favorable, where do you think our lead came from?

Yes those TIME and NEWSWEEK covers were really unfavorable. Or the media naming his nomination "inevitable." SURE...

Our efforts, our letter-writing. You are sadly misinformed if you think we contributed nothing.

A. I never said you didn't contribute anything. I just didn't think Deans "Grassroots" support turned out to be very effective in what REALLY matters, GOTV. (get out the vote)

In Iowa, where he outspent everyone, and had the LARGEST field operation this state has ever seen, he finished not just 3rd, but a pathetic 3rd, this shows something wrong with an organization. Anyone will tell you that field operations win elections, so what happened?

We are the davids, fighting the media goliaths.

Give me a break. Will Pitt (kucinich press secretary) is a david fighting the media goliaths.

One can't rightly expect we can fight a force so powerful, yet still, he takes one second place after another, even with the force of ten or twelve networks pushing Kerry.

Dude, your just wrong on that score. The Deaniacs are a powerful force to be reckoned with. How do you think the message got out there about the media bias? That's us baby, that's me and 200,000 other meet up members.

do me a favor and read this article when you get a chance, it's really good summary by a Dean supporter of what went wrong:

http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2004/02/03/exiting_deanspace.php

take care Deaniac

[liberalmike27]

15. So What?

Edwards brings a few southerners on-board, and we lose anyway, big Deal. Gore was from the south, and he didn't win anything but Florida, and Bush (Jeb) managed to finagle that away from him.

Just accept the South from Texas to the Carolina's are a loss to Bush, save that money, and use it somewhere else. It's beautiful, and of course in border states, like VA, or TN, or KY, you could go for it.

He said a mouthful, Dean brings nearly 200,000 meet up members to campaign actively if he's the VP, otherwise, you have one in five voters very disillusioned, some voting Green, some not bothering at all. No matter how you may disrespect it, I've got that feeling, I'm really mad at the Democratic establishment, have been for years. They've been going along for so long with Pubbies that people are really legitimately confused as to what difference it makes. This is what you are dealing with here. It solves both problems.

We in the South who are working for Kerry/Dean, should that happen, can write our letters to northern states, imploring that they vote for the Democratic ticket, and not waste time with campaigning here, unless the polls look close.

I know it defies normal strategy, but look what this tired strategy has gotten. Kennedy was killed, making Johnson president, and other than Carter, who was quite conservative, we got Clinton, who was right of Nixon even. It just might work. I don't see other alternatives that look too good.

[Ficus]

19. not saying thats a bad strategy

however a few things to keep in mind:

1. Meet up members do not = votes
contributions do not = votes
yard signs, bumper stickers, letters, etc, do not = votes
and as Dr. Dean has found out, that "support" does not = votes

2. Your logic fails to take into account the argument that we'll lose more votes in the middle having Dean on the ticket than keeping him to appease his movement.

I also agree that we don't necessarily need to appease the south with a southerner, but I just don't think Dr. Dean is the right man. Perhaps Gephardt. MO would be a great state to win, if not other midwestern states we lost in 2000.

[liberalmike27]

20. Media

I've talked plenty about the media, and I clearly stated that the media had never been Dean's friend, and had started to Bash him way before the Iowa elections. It wasn't working, they intensified just before the election, and finally it took-hold, slingshotting both Kerry and Edwards past Dean. It had nothing to do with some translation of effort to votes, "sport". The speech rhetoric was just a further acceleration by the media, since they had far more to take-down in New Hampshire. You keep on believing in the corporations that put that news on, and you'll never be a part of fixing it.

Wow, Gephardt, the guy who couldn't even win the state next to his, the guy who's provided the most losses in Congress for years now, the guy who'll further the solidifying of the paid-for Washington insider ticket, yea, that's a great idea. I honestly couldn't think of a worse person of the ten who were running, than Gephardt, to further drive the stake of alienation into the hearts of Dean supporters.

It's a workable strategy, and though all Southerners aren't stupid, to be sure, a lot of folks are just quite suceptible to the Bush spell, and to Republicans in general. I don't know why, but I doubt any democrat will win any southern state. It makes no sense, I know, the poorest region as a whole in the nation, and they vote for the party that makes them even poorer, and that is the current racist party, slavery being what put them in their economic straits in the first place.

[Ficus]

24. the media doesn't vote

I've talked plenty about the media, and I clearly stated that the media had never been Dean's friend, and had started to Bash him way before the Iowa elections.

Right, he was held to scrutiny before the caucuses were held. What's your point? Iowa media didn't trash Dean...Iowa and Hew Hampshire votes are won with retail politics, not spots on Hardball, nor FAUX news reporting. People dated Dean, but went home with Kerry or Edwards. Maybe Dean folks might want to find out why his support wasn't solid.

It had nothing to do with some translation of effort to votes, "sport".

Actually, I was saying he had a problem of organization - look no further than the records of Jeani Murray (Deans IA field manager) versus John Norris (Kerry's) and you'll find out a little about what happened and who is a pro at organizing and getting results.


The speech rhetoric was just a further acceleration by the media, since they had far more to take-down in New Hampshire. You keep on believing in the corporations that put that news on, and you'll never be a part of fixing it.

Iowa caucuses are a test of organizational strength. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the caucuses.

And yes, I know you believe that there is a big media trashing of Dean. But that wasn't the case here. You know who trashed Dean here? Dean.

And I don't watch corporate media...I watch the News Hour but I'm sure that's too corporate for you.

Wow, Gephardt, the guy who couldn't even win the state next to his, the guy who's provided the most losses in Congress for years now, the guy who'll further the solidifying of the paid-for Washington insider ticket, yea, that's a great idea. I honestly couldn't think of a worse person of the ten who were running, than Gephardt, to further drive the stake of alienation into the hearts of Dean supporters.

I think you missed my point. I wasn't arguing that Gephardt is great or something, I'm just saying perhaps a experienced midwesterner or westerner would be more of a benefit than another northeasterner.

[Ficus]

27. one more thing

Gephardt, the guy who couldn't even win the state next to his

I'd like to point out that NH is next to Vermont, too.

[On the Road]

21. Dean Would Bring the Activist Anti-Insider Wing of the Party

That's been the split over the last few years -- it's much more important than geography.

[mrgorth]

6. Never happen

It may be the "anti-south" ticket but it will have Gep or Richardson on it. I think this is a good idea.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. I will eat Tucker Carlson's shoe

if Dean is the Veep nominee.

[Duncan Grant]

29. Bookmarked the thread!

Just in case the day comes when pigs do fly! :evilgrin:

:hi:

[Raya]

9. Solution: WELCOME, WELCOME, WELCOME. Let's engage the enemy with joy!

It is totaly destructive to keep putting down our likely nominee.

The country desperately needs strong progressive leadership.

[Arugula Latte]

12. The media will say:

"If something happens to president Kerry, do you want THIS man with his finger on the button?" And then they'll play -- you guessed it -- the Scream for their phoney baloney evidence.

[woofless]

14. No thank you.

[Monument]

16. I doubt this would ever happen

I personally am truly impressed by Dean and would like to see that ticket. I think that this has almost no chance of happening considering the following

* Kerry and Dean don't get along personally
* Dean is too much of a lightning rod, and would take attention off of Kerry.
* Dean would serve to add to the ticket by drawing left leaning voters. I am not convinced that Kerry feels he needs to grab this voting block, instead of - let's say - minorities, or southerners.

I think that Kerry will probably give some feelers out to Dean in order to make the Dean supporters feel good, but I think it'll just be lip-service.

I'd like to see Kerry ask a minority to be a VP.

[creativelcro]

22. Here is my second best scenario (after the Dean wins nom. one).

Kerry wins nomination. Dean is VP. Kerry's cancer resurfaces, Dean becomes Prez. He asks Hillary to become VP.

[mrgorth]

23. That's cold homes

Don't wish cancer on anyone.

[mccormack98]

25. Eeww ..

[Duncan Grant]

28. Too far, creativelcro.

I'm not currently supporting Kerry but that's going too far. That post trivializes all Dean supporters.

You might want to consider editing that post...:shrug:

[DebJ]

31. love it

[ibegurpard]

26. Speak for yourself

I'm not going to give Kerry A THING except my possible vote. If Dean runs with Kerry then, rather than increasing my estimation of Kerry, it will make me think much less of Dean.

[tobius]

30. Not a great

idea. Writing off a large swath of the country? If that is Kerry's strategy he is smart enough to back off it publicly, nominating Dean would make it an easy target.

Will his next VP support his 3 Iraq war votes? NCLB? Patriot Act? etc....
    "No man is fit to be a Senator...unless he is willing to surrender his political life for great principle."
                          -- Senator Henry Fountain Ashurst (D-AZ)