Some people have forgotten the REAL enemy

[ShaneGR]

[IndianaGreen]

1. Bush got a lot of help from Democrats in Congress

IWR, PATRIOT, NCLB, Medicare reform, etc.

There is plenty of blame to go around, and all of them are responsible. Only criminals fail to take responsibility for their actions, always blaming their victims or someone else for their crimes.

Come to think of it, IWR and PATRIOT were criminal acts!

[bryant69]

3. So if Kerry or Edwards

Get the nomination, what would you encourage DU to do? I mean how should we react?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ShaneGR]

6. Judging from the tone

I'd guess he'd have us campaigning against the Dem ticket, and in favor of Bush.

But that's just a guess.

[IrateCitizen]

13. Instead of "judging," why don't you take IG's word...

... for what her intentions are?

SEE HER POST #7 HERE

[IndianaGreen]

7. I always tell people to vote

and to vote their conscience in whichever fashion their conscience operates. Many people actually pray asking for Divine guidance.

Just War? What Would Jesus Do?

These are scripture messages meant to be lived, but it is difficult when at work and at home, war has become the national pastime. It is difficult when a small but vocal minority, that believes our war machine is almost always the answer to major conflict, has control of the airwaves. Meaningful and personal discussion of the central war and peace problem of our society is hard to come by, but maintaining, and creating new, prayer-study-action church & community groups is the basic lifeline for Pax Christi to reverse the tide of war.

We must continue to call ourselves, and others to the reality of Jesús’ teaching. As Fr. John. L. McKenzie, respected scripture scholar, has said, “If we cannot know from the New Testament that Christ totally rejects violence, then we can know nothing of His person or message. It is the clearest of teachings.” More must know, and believe more fully this teaching, and follow more closely what it calls us to, in our daily lives. The “From Violence to Wholeness” small group discussion guide, and Fr. McCarthy’s “Boldly Like God, Go Against the Swords” study series, are good catalysts for forming the “beloved communities” necessary to advance a more peaceable kingdom here, now, in this war torn world. “The Beloved Community” was a term coined by Josiah Royce who founded the FOR. Dr.Martin Luther King, who was also a member of FOR, spoke of the beloved community as the practical means for transforming, redeeming change. We must not neglect to invite in to our beloved communities, those of different race or background, and the young people who have so much to offer in this struggle, and even to invite in those who oppose us. In this way Dr. King and his people won the Montgomery bus boycott.

“Here is the true meaning and value of compassion and nonviolence—when it helps us to see the enemy’s point of view, to hear his questions, to know his assessment of ourselves. For from his view we may indeed see the basic weaknesses of our own condition, and if we are mature, we may learn and grow and profit from the wisdom of the brothers & sisters who are called the opposition.” --M.L.K.’s “Beyond Vietnam” speech

http://www.paxchristiusa.org/news_events_more.asp?id=557

[IrateCitizen]

11. Well said, IG

There's very little I can add to what you just posted. As a deeply spiritual person, I am very troubled by the efforts of many to somehow justify the needless wasting of human life through acts of senseless violence. I am greatly saddened when I see posts by people who laud the Democrats for voting for war in order to "give Bush enough rope to hang himself."

To me, it all comes back to the simple phrase, "What does it benefit a man to gain the world, if to lose his soul in the process?"

Your reference to the core teachings of Jesus certainly resonate for me. As a Unitarian Universalist who feels he has become a better "Christian" through rejection of some of the aspects of mainstream Christianity, I have come to feel that the message of Christ can be broken down quite simply. When asked what laws were the most important to follow, he gave only two:
1. Love your God with all of your heart
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Just follow these two, and everything else will fall into place. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? Why do we continue to "reason" such concepts away as foolhardy idealism?

In the words of Elvis Costello, "What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?"

[GreenArrow]

15. the two commandments of Jesus

What's funny is that I very seldom meet anyone calling himself a Christian who knows what they are. The nominal Christian can tell me all about the Ten Commandments, but are invariably ignorant about Jesus' thoughts on the matter. Seems to me, that if one's a Christian, the 10 Commandments should be of no concern (except maybe from an historical perspective.)

[IrateCitizen]

16. But that would invalidate the Gandhi postulate, GreenArrow...

You know, the time when Gandhi was questioned about Christianity, and he said that he liked Christ but found the problem with Christianity to be the Christians. ;-)

[molly]

19. Jesus was Jewish and what he taught came from that

[IndianaGreen]

20. It is also in the Talmud

The Talmud records an interesting story of Rabbi Hillel who lived and taught just before Jesus. A heathen came to Hillel and asked to be taught the whole of Torah while standing on one foot. Hillel replied, “What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow man. This is the whole of the Torah and the remainder is but commentary” (Shab. 31a). Rabbi Akiba, said that the command to love thy neighbor was a “fundamental principle of the Torah.”

http://community.gospelcom.net/Brix?pageID=6152

[GreenArrow]

21. my point is

that as a Christian, if you wish to concern yourself with a holy book, it should be the New Testament, primarily the Gospels.

Jesus was Jewish, but we can't be sure exactly what his other influences were. However, it's unlikely that they were limited to only orthodox Jewish thought.

[IrateCitizen]

23. It's believed he was heavily influenced by eastern thought

In fact, there are many similarities between the kind of life that Jesus advocated and the teachings of some eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism.

It's interesting that about 18 years of Jesus's life -- age 12-30, approximately -- are completely absent from the gospels. I saw a show on A&E's "Mysteries of the Bible" -- a pretty interesting show if you've never seen it -- in which the topic was "the lost years of Jesus". There has been evidence uncovered from several historical records speaking of a figure fitting the description of Jesus appearing in South Asia during the very time period of his "lost years".

If there is any truth to it, I find it interesting and ironic because it would display how similar all of the religions of the world are when you stop focusing on law and tradition, and instead look at the bare essence of them. Imagine the howl from the fundies if it was shown that Jesus was not only a Jew -- but also dabbled in Buddhism and Hinduism!

Ye Gods! :D

[GreenArrow]

31. ah, but if it could be proven that Christ dabbled in

Hinduism, Buddhism, or anything else, would Christians believe it? Or would they start gathering kindling and stones?

[IrateCitizen]

33. If Christ were to come back tomorrow...

... the Fundamentalist Christians would probably be leading the chorus to crucify him all over again. :shrug:

[GreenArrow]

34. ha, you know they would

Many of them already crucify Christ anew every day.

[henslee]

22. I think Nick Lowe wrote it...E.C. already gets plenty of credit!

[BeFree]

29. Jesus said: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's

In politics, if you are going to play a part, you will get down and dirty. Once you decide to get down nd dirty, then you are "giving unto Caesar," and stepping out of the spiritual world into the man made.

Just trying to clarify things.

[IndianaGreen]

32. The "render unto Caesar" is misunderstood by non-Jews

A religious Jew would never have any allegiance to a secular ruler, particularly in the case of the Roman Emperors when Rome was a hostile occupying power.

Religious Jews in Jesus's time felt about Rome and her emperors in the same way Hamas feels about Israel today, or Osama bin Laden feels about the corrupt Saudi monarchy, or the Iraqis feel about the American occupation, or the Chechens feel about the Russians. I am speaking strictly from the religious point of view! Roman emperors held the title of Supreme Pontiff (this predates Catholicism), meaning that the Emperors were on the same level as the other gods.

The "render unto Caesar" means that Caesar gets nothing, for Israel only recognizes her G_d and rejects Rome and the Emperor. This was a very clever saying of Jesus in which he basically tells Rome to get screwed without having to be explicit about it. Jews got it, the Romans missed the point!

[IrateCitizen]

35. Are you inadvertently ignoring the context of that statement?

Or are you doing so consciously to support your point?

Mark 12:13-17

13Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14They came to him and said, "Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not? 15Should we pay or shouldn't we?"
16But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. "Why are you trying to trap me?" he asked. "Bring me a denarius and let me look at it." They brought the coin, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
17Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."
And they were amazed at him.

But in going back to your initial point about "stepping out of the spiritual world and into the man-made" in order to "get down and dirty" -- I think the following passage pretty much debunks your point entirely:

Matthew 22:34-40
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

So, if you're advocating leaving the "spiritual" realm in order to get "down and dirty" in the world of Caesar (i.e., all bets on morality are off) -- it seems to me that you would be pretty guilty of violating what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments -- loving your God with all your being, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

I'm interested in hearing how you reconcile this.

[kiahzero]

5. He did not

Everyone but Feingold voted for Patriot Act, including Wellstone. Would you be saying this about him? About Byrd?

NCLB was a Ted Kennedy production, later bastardized by the Bush administration.

Medicare 'reform' was fought in the filibuster.

[democratreformed]

2. Yes, the "real" enemy is becoming an increasingly blurred line

Hopefully, the choices of the people will become justified in November.

[IrateCitizen]

4. How nice of you to make our definitions for us!

:eyes:

Seriously, the "real enemy" is different things to different people. For me, personally, George W Bush is a mere symptom of a much deeper national disorder. While getting him out of office will certainly be a good thing, it remains to be seen if that will result in taking a closer look at the real disease itself -- the triumvirate of militarism, mass-consumerism and rapacious greed. From my perspective, it is this national disorder that is the "real enemy".

[NNN0LHI]

8. Understatement of the year

>>>While getting him out of office will certainly be a good thing<<<

[IrateCitizen]

9. My only point in phrasing it that way, Don...

... is that it will not be "THE" thing. We'll still have mountains of ice before us, so we can't afford to cool off our fire at all.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Excellent points, IC!

It is disturbing to see how the moral and ethical aspects of political issues are ignored or discarded altogether.

[IrateCitizen]

14. It most certainly is, IG.

Instead of being concerned with such qualities as foresight and courage to do what's right in the long run, we instead are utterly consumed with the whole goal as being riding our team for the "big win".

Like I've said before, "What good does it do a man to gain the world, if he loses his soul in the process?"

Or, to put it more simply, "If you dance with the devil, you don't change the devil -- the devil changes you."

[GreenArrow]

18. there are no moral and ethical aspects of politics

it's all about winning, damnit!

[Forkboy]

25. and therein lies the problem

[Democrats unite]

12. Some people have forgotten

Who helps enable this enemy!

[molly]

17. What an ugly - evil man!

I can't wait to :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: all the way back to the ranch!

[lifelong_Dem]

24. Believe me, these people know exactly who THEIR real enemy is

And it ain't Bush* and the PNAC. No, they'd rather defeat Democrats than Republicans. If Bush* and his boys get a second term, they think it'll teach the Dems a 'lesson' and they get to feel important. Never mind that the price for this 'lesson' will be thousands more dead around the world and continued suffering here at home - they don't care, they won't be paying it.

[IrateCitizen]

26. How's that workin' for ya?

"These people"? Could you clarify what you mean by this? Does it mean progressives who still are willing to pull the (D) lever but are tired of being taken for granted? What about Greens who are willing to support the Democratic nominee in order to oust Bush? Or is it simply anyone who doesn't place absolute importance on riding the team for the "big win" rather than actually trying to talk about real problems in this country?

Please note that the last case is not the equivalent of refusing to vote for the Democrat in November, as much as you'd like to portray it as such in order to engage in hateful invective against your own perceived "enemies".

[lifelong_Dem]

27. I know all those types of people you're talking about

I don't have any problem with them. What I do have a problem with is people who say, in essence, that there's no difference between Bush* and Kerry. That message sounds exactly like the "There's no difference between Bush and Gore" message from 2000 - and we all saw how well that worked out, didn't we?

[IrateCitizen]

28. So you're going to try and convince them of their error...

... by belittling and denigrating them? That's sure to work.

Not everyone is bound to see the world through the same lenses as you. Your goal should be to convince them -- and that will never happen so long as you maintain such an accusatory manner.

Just some friendly advice, FWIW.

[Forkboy]

30. My real enemy is injustice and intolerance

Bush is but one front of many in that battle.