Lou Dobbs is a scapegoating piece of trash and I'm sick of em.

[inthebrain]

He really is a jerk. Liestening to this guy reminds me of a watered down version of the KKKs Grand Dragon. I'm waiting for him to harken "blood and soil".

I remember watching him on Bill Maher. Bill asked Lou if he had any compassion for the immigrants and Lou started tapping how he felt bad for the employers. He's nothing more than another trickle down economist and a one trick pony.

[Harper_is_Bush]

1. I think he helped you guys win.....so.....

he critisized the Bush admin constantly.

[inthebrain]

2. There are plenty of people doing that

If it comes down to relying on bigots to win I'd rather lose. If Lou Dobbs influenced immigration policy during WWII half the people here would have been lost to the Nazis.

[Harper_is_Bush]

3. Ah, so now he's a bigot.

Ok. If you say so.

[QC]

4. Around here, disagreeing with certain posters on the immigration issue

qualifies one as a bigot. Easier than actually thinking, I guess.

[inthebrain]

7. How does that square with Lou Dobbs?

Dobbs's immigration reporting marked by misinformation, extreme rhetoric, attacks on Mexican president, and data from organization linked to white supremacists

Summary: On CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, Lou Dobbs claimed that the Senate immigration bill, which includes numerous provisions targeting illegal immigration, does "absolutely nothing for border security." On the same show, correspondent Casey Wian characterized Mexican President Vicente Fox's trip to Salt Lake City, Utah, as a "Mexican military incursion," and claimed that "ou could call" Fox's trip to the United States "the Vicente Fox Aztlan tour" -- drawing a baseless link between Fox and the reconquista movement, which maintains that portions of the American Southwest belong to Mexico.
On the May 23 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, host Lou Dobbs claimed that a Senate immigration bill, which includes numerous provisions targeting illegal immigration, does "absolutely nothing for border security." Later, during the same broadcast, CNN correspondent Casey Wian characterized Mexican President Vicente Fox's trip to Salt Lake City, Utah, as a "Mexican military incursion," and claimed that "ou could call" Fox's trip to the United States "the Vicente Fox Aztlan tour" -- drawing a baseless link between Fox and the reconquista movement, which maintains that portions of the American Southwest (territory referred to by supporters of the theory as "Aztlan") belong to Mexico. During Wian's report, CNN featured a graphic of "Aztlan" that was sourced to the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) -- an organization linked to white supremacists.

Reporting on the Senate immigration bill, Dobbs said: "Still ahead here, as the Senate moves closer to voting for a bill that would give amnesty to illegal aliens and do absolutely nothing for border security, one of the legislation's leading critics joins me, Senator Jeff Sessions . Senator Sessions says the Senate should be ashamed of itself." As Media Matters for America has noted, however, the proposed immigration legislation includes numerous provisions to increase border security. On March 27, the Senate Judiciary Committee approved an immigration bill based on the "Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act" -- sponsored by Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and co-sponsored by Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA). A fact sheet provided by Kennedy stated that, in addition to providing a guest worker program and a path for illegal immigrants to gain citizenship, the bill that emerged from the Senate Judiciary Committee would:

Double the strength of the Border Patrol by add 12,000 new agents (2,400 each year for the next 5 years)
Double interior enforcement by adding "1,000 investigators per year for next 5 years"
Create a "ew ecurity

erimeter" by "add new technology at the border to create 'virtual fence' "
"Tighten[] ontrols" by "expand exit-entry security system at all land borders and airports"
Call for the "onstruction of arriers" by "mandat new roads and vehicle barriers at borders"
Call for the "onstruction of ences" by "provid additional border fences at specific vulnerable sectors"
"uthorize new permanent highway checkpoints near border"
Demand a "omprehensive urveillance

lan" that would "mandate[] new land and water surveillance plan"
"Create[] new crime for construction, financing, and use of unlawful tunnels."


http://mediamatters.org/items/200605240011

[QC]

12. Those are disturbing allegations,

except for the bit about attacking Fox, who is nothing more than a shill for Mexico's ruling elite, an aristocracy so voraciously greedy and uncaring that it makes our own seem generous and public spirited by comparison.

Using material from the CCC is obviously wrong, and the Aztlan business is silly. I agree with you here.

Still, the fact remains that Dobbs is the only voice in the corporate media that is dealing at all with class issues. The only one. Everyone else sticks to Wall Street cheerleading, telling us that all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds because the DJIA went up a half-percent today.

Until some more people come along who will hammer the economic elite for waging war on the rest of us, I will give Dobbs some credit for what he's doing. It's not like we have a lot of allies.

[inthebrain]

25. Lou Dobbs is an elitest

He wants tight border security and immigrants kicked out so they can be easily eploited on the other side. He's even gone so far as to lie about public opinion on the topic.

[question everything]

53. He does not want "immigrants kicked out"

certainly not legal immigrants.

But he does want border security and employer to prevent illegal immigrants.

Why is this so wrong?

[inthebrain]

32. And he cites faulty Stats from the Heritage foundation

Dobbs again cited discredited Heritage immigration figures
Summary: Lou Dobbs claimed that "f the Heritage Foundation involved," a recent immigration bill passed by the Senate "would have approved 100 million immigrants into this country." But independent analysts have questioned the methodology and results of a Heritage study to which Dobbs was referring; the study claimed that the Senate bill would allow more than 100 million people to legally immigrate to the U.S. over the next 20 years.
On the July 14 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, Dobbs claimed that "f the Heritage Foundation involved" in the immigration debate, a recent bill passed by the Senate "would have approved 100 million immigrants into this country." Dobbs's statement about Heritage getting "involved" was a reference to a study issued by Heritage claiming that the Senate bill would allow more than 100 million immigrants to enter the U.S. over the next 20 years. The study has been credited with generating support for an amendment to the Senate bill that would reduce the number of immigrants allowed in the U.S. under the bill's proposed guest worker program. However, independent analysts have questioned the methodology and results of the Heritage study, as Media Matters for America noted when Dobbs previously cited it.

The Heritage study, conducted by Robert Rector, originally claimed that "f enacted, the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act would ... allow[] an estimated 103 million persons to legally immigrate to the U.S. over the next 20 years -- fully one-third of the current population of the United States." Rector later reduced that number to 66 million after the Senate passed Sen. Jeff Bingaman's (D-NM) amendment that would limit the number of legal immigrants who could enter the United States under the bill's guest worker program. According to a May 23 Knight Ridder (now known as McClatchy) article, the Heritage study "helped persuade" the Senate to pass Bingaman's amendment.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200607180008

[inthebrain]

5. Yes he is

He talks of middle class priorities with complete ignorance of who built the middle class.

Here's a hint............THEY WERE POOR IMMIGRANTS!!!!!!!!

He doen't have a beef with them does he? Oh lemme see....... perhaps that has something to do with the fact that they were WHITE!!!!!!

Folks made the same claims about those immigrants despite the fact that our immigration system was economicly accessable to them.

Recent polling data also suggests that Lou Dobb's stance on immigration had little effect on the election. As a matter of fact I'm willing to say that he had NO EFFECT ON THE ELECTION!!!! 70% of Americans support a path to citizenship for Immigrants!!!

Two Republican immigration hawks........LOST IN ARIZONA!!!!!

[Harper_is_Bush]

9. The middle class he refers to aren't illegal immigrants at this time though

are they?

All I know is he hammered the government. In fact, he had a "broken government" special going just before the election.

It matters little that the one issue he harps the most about didn't factor into the election all that much. The point is he was down on the Bush administration constantly, and during the supper hour too.

[fuzzyball]

48. I have positive proof Lou Dobbs is a BIGOT....

He mainly complains about brown skinned Mexicans
coming here without legal status. I have not heard
one time Dobbs complaining about white Russians and
white eastern Europeans coming here legally but
then staying past when their visitors visa expires.

Washington state here is crawling with illegal Russians.
Then they go on medicaid and drain resources. My wife
works in a large medical practice and according to her
the government also pays for the translator to accompany
this non-English speaking Russian. Not only that, the govt.
also pays for their transportation!!

[Odin2005]

52. There are a lot more Mexicans coming here illegally then Eastern Europeans.

People trying to claim being against ILLEGAL immigration automatically make you racist issue are using the Appeal to Emotions Fallacy.

[Le Taz Hot]

94. It's the only thing they have.

It's impossible to argue against illegal immigration legitimately so, if you notice, somewhere along the line the argument gets changed into one of two things, sometimes both:

1. You're a bigot.
2. You're against ANYONE immigrating to America.

Watch and see if that isn't the case right on down the line in EVERY example.

Oh, and btw, not only am I a bigot because I don't think Mexican immigrants should get special treatment. I'm a bigot (I learned last week) because I don't like Barak Obama. It doesn't take much these days don't 'cha know.

[Mr_Spock]

78. I've heard him complain about excess visas & those folks taking our jobs

It's should also be obvious to most people that the number of Mexican illegal immigrants exceeds the folks you are talking about by at least 2 orders of magnitude - not really comparable.

[fuzzyball]

104. Those foreigners on H2B (sic?) work visa's are here LEGALLY and

not breaking any laws. Bill Gates just said in a speech
that American schools are failing to educate students
in high tech. So we import high tech workers. If Loe Dobbs
is against that he is a jerk, a bigot and a economic dud.

[Mass]

108. And Bill Gates is wrong - These immigrants are here because they can be paid

about 30 % less than the US worker who has equivalent qualifications. There are many, many people with high tech degrees and experience who cannot find a job because companies prefer to hire somebody from a foreign country that is younger, less expensive, and who is doing to agree because they are one a visa that is basically linked to the employer.

(But I agree with the OP on Dobbs).

[fuzzyball]

111. You are right about the 30% cheaper foreign workers, but...

is not that the way free market is supposed to work?
Demand & Supply?

How do you intend to restrict legal workers from coming here
to work? Especially when there are willing employers? Do not
these generally younger workers pay our taxes and carry the load
for older & retired American workers on social security?

I am assuming you are in favor of quotas on foreign workers from
each country. The result of something like that will be higher
costs for services and goods. So the higher salary you will earn
by restricting competition from foreign/cheaper workers will not
buy you anything extra in goods and services. In fact some of these
jobs will end up in foreign countries.

In the end, free markets work the best although it is not the best
for "some" workers. Every single individual American is a consumer
and every single consumer benefits from lower cost of living.

[grizmaster]

113. you haven't listened enough then

I've heard him discuss illegal immigrants of every stripe and color.

[ComerPerro]

17. when he "attacks" Bush or Republicans, he is very careful to bash Dems too

by either saying shit like "the Dems are just as bad", or generalizing his target by saying "Congress" instead of "Republicans", or "politicans" instead of Bush/Repigs, or the general "DC changes people, they sold out and turned too liberal" bullshit that I hear all the time.

[MoonRiver]

117. "you guys"?????????????????

And just who did you want to win? :wtf:

[mtnsnake]

6. Only on DU. Yesterday he was a hero around here.

[QC]

13. Yeah, but on DU there are only saints and devils,

and that status can change in seconds and then change back again just as rapidly.

A lot of posters here remind me of religious fundamentalists--they have the same insistence on absolute purity of word, thought, and deed and the same Manichean worldview. And, just like their religious conterparts, they tend to shout down those who are interested in rational discussion.

[MGD]

82. A radical is someone who won't admit they're wrong and never changes the subject." Winston Churchill

Sound like anyone you know?

[citizen snips]

8. I think Lou makes a great point.

pushing for border security is not racism.

[earthside]

11. A Secure Border is Not Racist

I totally agree.

Since when is it bigotry to want laws obeyed that are simply to secure our own borders?

We now have 300 million people living in the nation that is the largest single producer of greenhouse gases. We now have 300 million people living in a nation that consumes more natural resources than any other country.

And there are folks out there that want to add more amd more consumers to that number!

Let's put it plainly -- illegal immigration and unlimited legal immigration into the United States is going to play a major role in destroying our environment.

And ... I think that the real people who should be thinking about "racism" are those that believe that our 'American' lifestyle is so superior to Mexico's that, of course, the poor peasants will break any law to get here.

Lou Dobbs is about 90 percent correct in his assessment of the illegal immigration problem.

[inthebrain]

16. So when it's the brown skinned folk

I see.

I wonder how the immigration waves of the 20's, 30's and 40's square with you. Back in the day when our immigration policies were affordable.

THe enviornment angle happens to be the laziest aspect of this issue I've seen yet. Folks have been trying for a very long time to pin liberal issues to this to gain more converts.

Great way to shit on the people who built middle class America; POOR IMMIGRANTS!!!!!

[citizen snips]

26. Immigration is a liberal issue

because illegal immigrants take jobs away from legal citizens.

[inthebrain]

29. No it's not

Fake letist like to claim that anti illegal immigration is the liberal stance but it's not. This is more due to the work of triangularists and right wing racists trying to appeal to liberals.

You live in a capitalists society. In this society you don't OWN your jobs. Therefor it is impossible for someone to take something from you that you do not own!!!!

Your approach is wrong. Folks like Lou Dobbs is not a Class Warrior for the underclass. He is just like everyother bigot that's come along who attempts to get the have nots and the have somes to fight over table scraps.

It's like throwing rotten meat to starving dogs.

[citizen snips]

30. Not according to this political spectrum

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,20929,00.html
If you answer "expose the shocking details to the local newspaper. It's not right that he should take British people's jobs" to the immergrant question the pointer goes left.

[inthebrain]

44. It's flawed

Scapegoating is a symptom of fascism. That's moving rightward and not left.

Folks here complain of the destructive aspect of the DLC in liberalism all the time. That little "test" is certainly a result of that.

[citizen snips]

93. BS

the third option goes exactly left. border security is not fascism this is fascism...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[inthebrain]

97. I never knew fascists were into labor offering rights

to citizenship.

I never knew fascist were welcoming folk willing to allow everyone an equal place at their economic table.

I never knew fascists supported labor unions.

I must have gotten a lot of this stuff wrong in college history classes or had a bad teacher. I really didn't know guys like Mussolinni, Franco and Hitler were the open borders types. They must have really despites the nations that were interesting in improving the underclass in their society without scapegoating powerless people.

As typical, you have to play down is up and up is down.

For shame!!!!!

[piedmont]

19. agree, earthside

The U.S. cannot continue to grow in population and consumption.

[Mass]

109. It is not racist. It is useless.

The best way to get rid of illegal immigration (and excessive immigration in general) is to punish SEVERALLY those who hire undocumented workers, and to help the Mexican governement to create a working economy.

Of course, Bush decided to do none of those two, and prefers a purely demagogical solution.

[William769]

10. He has done more for middle income America than anyone else in MSM.

I say Kudos to Lou Dobbs!

[inthebrain]

14. No he hasn't

Every issue he stands for fell flat in this election. I stated earlier, America favors full citizenships for all illegals that are here. The two immigration hawks running in Arizona lost.

The middle class in America was built on the backs of poor immigrants that fought the system. Lou Dobbs shit's on the very breadbasket that allowed folks to move up.

[William769]

15. ROFLOL!

You just keep believeing that. :rofl: :eyes:

[inthebrain]

20. Here's more about Lou Dobbs the Liar........

He had not Impact on the election.




During the April 1 edition of Fox News Watch, Newsday columnist James P. Pinkerton claimed that "polls show 60, 70, 80 percent of the country supports the House approach," which would exclude the guest worker and citizenship provisions, and instead focus on enhancing border security and enacting tougher penalties for illegal immigrants and anyone who employs them or otherwise assists them in coming to and living in the United States. Similarly, CNN host Lou Dobbs claimed during the March 31 edition of Lou Dobbs Tonight that "most polls" show that a guest worker program is "opposed by the majority of Americans," while Weekly Standard executive editor Fred Barnes stated that evening on Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume that "many more polls" indicate "opposition to earned citizenship, and against worker program" than in favor of those provisions.

In fact, with the exception of a March 16 NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll, all recent polls show majority support for a guest worker program or some kind of path to citizenship:

An April 2 Associated Press/Ipsos poll found that 56 percent of respondents favored temporary worker status for illegal immigrants already living within the United States, while 41 percent opposed such a measure.
A March 31 Time poll -- cited on Special Report by Fox News chief Washington correspondent Jim Angle shortly before Barnes's comments -- found 79 percent of respondents approve of a guest worker program, up 6 percent from the same poll two months earlier. Eighteen percent of respondents disapproved, down from 23 percent two months earlier.
A March 30 poll released by the Pew Hispanic Center showed that 32 percent of Americans favor allowing illegal immigrants already in the United States to stay permanently, while another 32 percent favor a guest worker program for them. Only 27 percent said they should be required to leave the country, as the House bill would require, contradicting Pinkterton's assertion that a vast majority of Americans support it.
The only poll showing majority opposition to a guest worker program, the NBC/Wall Street Journal poll, indicated that 59 percent "strongly" or "somewhat" oppose a guest worker program, compared with 37 percent who "strongly" or "somewhat" support one.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200604050001

[stansnark]

38. i don't. speak for yourself

[FDR33]

39. Wake up

There is a difference between immigrants and illegal immigrants. Do you need me to explain it to you?

[Ninja Jordan]

43. "America favors full citizenships for all illegals that are here."

Evidence?

[piedmont]

46. The election was about many issues. Illegal immigration was only one.

Every issue he stands for fell flat in this election. I stated earlier, America favors full citizenships for all illegals that are here. The two immigration hawks running in Arizona lost.


This like the anti-gun crowd claiming that the election was a mandate to resurrect the assault weapons ban because some NRA endorsed republicans lost.

[inthebrain]

49. Divert much?

Lets just not address the fact that up and down no one supports Lou Dobb's platform on immigration.

LMFAO!!!!

[piedmont]

61. nope

This election was a referendum on an issue other than illegal immigration. Here's a hint: It's hot, dry, and thousands of Americans have died there.

[inthebrain]

65. That wasn't the only issue at play here

Sorry put elections are not that obtuse.

Immigration was one major discussion held over the last two years. JD Hayworths prime focus was on this issue and he lost. Folks like to credit Lou Dobb's for this election yet 80% of his material is the immigration issue.

I'm surpised Michael Moore gats no mention what so ever. His work on the Iraq war and George Bush is the classic example of how you advocate an issue. You take you lumps for the present hoping people turn around later on. Many issues are advocated for and movements created in that exact same fashion. If Iraq and George Bush are the issues that sunk this election, then it's Moore who gets the credit.

He was at it long before Lou Dobbs entered the game. And Moore's view is now the "mainstream" view on this issue. Heck, even George Bush no longer denys that it was about the oil.

Yet, that's usually how things work in America. Reminds me of how the Pixies were to for runners to Nirvana and the Smashing Pumpkins. Nobody cites them anymore.

History always damns our name. Seems as if poor immigrants and middle class have this same problem.

[piedmont]

81. To extrapolate results of 2 elections to a blanket statement .....

of what the American people want or don't want is not on solid logical ground. I'd love to have a national discussion on illegal immigration informed by non-biased research. Ideally it would lay out the full costs and benefits of continuing the current situation, as well as modeling the likely long-term outcomes of several policy options. I won't hold my breath though.

[ComerPerro]

18. name one tangible thing he has done for middle class Americans. One.

Anything.

And don't give this lame-ass cop-out bullshit like "well he had a special on..."

Who gives a rats ass? He only does that for ratings. Its called pandering.

Bush does it too.

Republicans say they are Christian, and say they speak for the middle class. Do you believe them, just because they run ads saying they do?

[inthebrain]

22. Lou Dobbs has done more to lie about the immigration issue

and American public opinion on the matter than any other media personality.

He's even bashed Democrats and forwarded the "Liberal Media" myth. Yet, he won the election for liberals and progressives!!!!!


http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/search_results?person=Lou%20Dobbs&mm_audio=0&mm_video=0&sort=default&offset=15

[ComerPerro]

23. lot of Dobbs worshipers here, I don't understand it

[inthebrain]

24. They are are social Darwinists!!!!

It's giving me the creeps.

Read some of the responses to this thread.

[ComerPerro]

27. I think you're right. And some of them just believe whatever he says

because he tells them what they want to hear

[rman]

107. what you call "worship", others call "agreeing with some of the things Dobbs says"

Don't you know this "you're either with us or against us" is a RW attitude?

[William769]

28. Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/10/Dobbs.Oct11/index.html

http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9780670037926,00.html

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2006/20061019142152.aspx

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061105/OPINION/61103046/1049

There are many many more, but you only asked for one.

Heres a question for you who else in MSM is doing anything close to this?

[inthebrain]

31. I see no mention of his stances on immigration

What about the Defining characteristids. What he cites as the decline of the middle class. American public opinion is not with him on the borders and immigration. I've already proven that in this thread.

His interventions would not be enacted if the public really did have a voice in the system. Just because he cites all the money as the problem that does not make him a hero on any of these issues. EVERYBODY IS SAYING THAT!!!!!

The MSM is just as far to the right as Lou Dobbs. He's CNN's answer to Bill Oreilly. He's also just as big of a liar on many of these issues, especially immigration!!!!!

[ComerPerro]

34. thank you for proving my point. This is just bullshit drivel.

Republicansone jack shit for working class Americans.

You know what he does?

He assigns blame and scapegoats.

that's all.


Quote from one of your links:

He insisted that “Republicans and Democrats alike have been putting their own partisan interests ahead of the concerns of working American families,” but over the course of the next hour he pressed for left-wing, big-government solutions that liberal Democrats tend to favor.

So, basically, he is saying that normally big government is bad, but in one case it could be good. Of course, no one is giving it to us, so why bother supporting Dems, right?


Maybe you should end your childish hero-worship of a man who is such a Republican apologist shill.


Or what are you going to do next? Tell me that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are great Christians, because they say they are?

[mtnsnake]

41. That's not hard to do. Lou is also doing more for Lou than anyone else with

considering he's pushing his new book, "War on the Middle Class."

[AtomicKitten]

21. he certainly stoked the anti-immigrant rage

Hispanics are the fasting growing body of voters in the country, so I guess we should say "Thanks, Lou."

[montana500]

33. It's not a "Mexican" issue, it's an over population issue

I agree with Lou. It doesn't matter ift he people illegally entering the country are white, black or hispanic. The point is , too many people are a burden to our social system, and eventually over population will destroy the quality of life in the lower 48. If it were not for immigration, the U.S. population would barely grow.

[inthebrain]

35. Thats why he backs the "Minuteman Project"

Which is run and supported by white nationalist organizations? Yet, it's not about Mexicans depiste the fact that's all he complains about. Talk about a Red Herring.

Dobbs: "I support the Minuteman Project and the fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished, fully, relentlessly, and proudly"
Summary: Responding to a critical Wall Street Journal editorial, CNN's Lou Dobbs announced his support for the Minuteman Project, in which volunteers monitor the U.S.-Mexico border for illegal immigrants.
During a discussion of a December 9 Wall Street Journal editorial on immigration on the December 9 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, host Lou Dobbs announced, "I support the Minuteman Project and the fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished, fully, relentlessly, and proudly."

The Minuteman Project describes its movement as "a call to bring national awareness to the decades-long careless disregard of effective U.S. immigration law enforcement. It is a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the 'rule of law', not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders." Among its activities is the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, groups of volunteers who monitor U.S. borders with Mexico and Canada to help stop what it calls "he human flood breaching our Homeland Defense." The Minuteman Project has been touted by conservative outlets such as Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, which has featured Minuteman organizers and supporters, often without providing an opposing viewpoint.

The Journal editorial examined a December 6 congressional election in California in which Minuteman Project organizer Jim Gilchrist, who campaigned as an independent on the issue of immigration, received 24 percent of the vote to winner Jim Campbell's (R) 45 percent. Dobbs objected to the Journal's characterization of Campbell's withdrawal of support for the guest-worker provision of President Bush's immigration reform as "panicking" in the face of Gilchrist's challenge, claiming instead that Campbell is "smart enough to listen to the concerns of his new constituents." Gilchrist was a guest on the December 7 edition of Lou Dobbs Tonight.

From the December 9 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight:

DOBBS: All right. Bill Tucker, thank you very much. The lead editorial in The Wall Street Journal this morning is entitled "Immigration (Spin) Control." And then, without embarrassment or even a remote sense of irony, goes on to spin the issues of border security and illegal immigration. The Journal editorial writer, in fact, managed in limited space to confuse illegal immigration and legal immigration, dismiss the significance of border security altogether, and while the Journal pandered to big business and the open-borders advocates, it managed to suggest the Republican winner of the Orange County, California, congressional election is panicked because he's smart enough to listen to the concerns of his new constituents and to insist on border security before he pledges to take on the issue of immigration reform.

At the same time, the Journal editorial basically suggested that Bill O'Reilly and I are somehow relentless in our support of the Minuteman Project, the volunteer group that works hard to bring attention to our border security crisis. And I just want to be clear to the Journal and to this audience: I support the Minuteman Project and the fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished, fully, relentlessly, and proudly.


http://mediamatters.org/items/200512120004

[piedmont]

36. Do you have a link for the "white nationalist organizations" claim?

[inthebrain]

37. The minute men?

Here ya go;


____________________________________________________________________________________________________
<<<<Minutemen leader Gilchrist has attempted to parlay his Minutemen notoriety into political gain by turning to white nationalists. Gilchrist entered the October 4 special election for the California 48th District Representative seat as an American Independent Party (AIP) candidate. The AIP was created to support the 1968 campaign of arch-segregationist George Wallace, AIP was founded by William K. Shearer, who also served on the National Executive Committee of the white supremacist Populist Party in the 1980s.19

Gilchrist's move to a non-mainstream party like the AIP is not new for antiimmigrant activists. To express dissatisfaction with GOP fence straddling on the immigration issue, many anti-immigrant activists have participated in third parties before, including Pat Buchanan's 2000 Reform Party campaign. During his recent campaign, Gilchrist portrayed himself as a true Reaganite conservative, in an attempt to pull the GOP rightward and make antiimmigrant sentiment a key campaign issue. He was able to win 14.4% of the vote, finishing third in a 17 person field, forcing a run-off election.>>>
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v19n3/burghart_cops.html


Louie praises the folks and calls them true patriots.

[piedmont]

40. thanks-- didn't know Gilchrist had run for office

I just checked out A.I.P.'s http://www.aipca.org/">site. Not much I agree with there.
That said, illegal immigration rates of 500,000+ are not sustainable economically or environmentally. Both major parties have been wishy-washy thus far and will be forced to address the issue.

[inthebrain]

42. Although the Defining Characteristics

in terms of the enviornment or the economical problems do not point to immigration. You're still willing to go along with that? What good does that do anyone?

It's destructive.

Thought you'd like this piece. Would you plea bargain our society away?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Democracy or Demagoguery

"Today's Sun Belt represents a confluence of Social Darwinism, entrepreneurialism, high technology, nationalism, nostalgia and fundamentalist religion, and any Sun Belt hegemony over our politics has a unique potential. . .to accommodate a drift toward apple-pie authoritarianism." So wrote conservative strategist Kevin Phillips in his 1982 book, Post-Conservative America.

The failed American Dream can give way to a new American fairness or a neo-fascist nig htmlare. It can happen in Europe. It can happen here.

As Sinclair Lewis warned in It Can't Happen Here, through the voice of newspaper editor Doremus Jessup: "The tyranny of this dictatorship isn't primarily the fault of Big Business, nor of the demagogues who do their dirty work. It's the fault of Doremus Jessup! Of all the conscientious, respectable, lazy-minded Doremus Jessups who have let the demagogues wriggle in, without fierce enough protest."

Clinton's favorite strategy is a well-tested failure: the best defense is a good sellout. Sell out labor; dump Lani Guinier, Joycelyn Elders, and numerous others deemed politically incorrect by rightwingers; scapegoat single mothers; make court appointments courting conservatives; and so on. Clinton and company behave like defense lawyers who plea bargain every case, no matter the particulars of guilt or innocence. Who wants a lawyer with a track record of pleading their clients "part guilty"?

The Democrats have reaped the scapegoating divisions they have sown with their moves to the right on welfare, immigration, and so on. They divide their electoral base of workers, Blacks, and women, and wonder why Republicans conquer. It's an impossible process of multiplication by division.

Right-wing politicians won in 1994 because their base (mostly religious conservative Republicans, but also like-minded Independents and Democrats) was mobilized to turn out in force--and there was no Perot to divert them--while the more liberal and moderate Democratic base was demoralized and turned off.

According to a report by the Roper Center for Public Opinion Research, the proportion of the 1994 electorate (not a representative sample of the larger population) calling themselves conservative increased 7 points nationally. Nearly one in five voters (19 percent) identified themselves as part of "the religious right political movement."

During the 1980s, Reaganites were the shock troops of global corporate capitalism, lowering wages, busting unions, scapegoating Blacks and women, rolling back communism, socialism, and social democracy abroad--and rolling back welfare and social services and democracy at home. In many ways, rightwingers continue to serve that shock troop purpose. But as shock troops and their leaders grow more powerful, they have more power to implement their more radical agenda, an agenda that is not fully shared by global corporate elites--and can ultimately threaten them.

To put it simply, corporate executives want their own oligarchy, not the Christian Coalition's theocracy.

In a 1992 New York Times Magazine article, Kevin Phillips reflected on the contemporary "politics of frustration." He noted "the radicalization of the usually nonideological midsection of the population because of cultural and economic trauma," and warned: "This can lead to dangerous politics, the most terrible example being Germany in the 1920s and early 1930s, when hard times and a collapsing center produced Adolf Hitler."

Phillips continued:

"One measure of the depth of the current frustration in America is that Duke could win the support of a majority of white Louisiana voters in two straight statewide elections, notwithstanding television advertisements showing him in Ku Klux Klan robes and swastika armbands.

" Buchanan took many of the same positions as Duke on immigration, race, welfare, trade and nationalism, albeit more moderately. And the charges of nativism, fascism, xenophobia and anti-Semitism inspired by his statements had little effect on his support. When a radicalizing middle class regards the establishment as bankrupt and the status quo as intolerable, normal standards fall quite easily."

Scapegoating fuels fear and fear fuels scapegoating. It is not far-fetched to see the seeds of "ethnic cleansing"--the widely-adopted euphemism for genocide in the former Yugoslavia--in the widespread support given California's Proposition 187. Land plundered from Mexico is called Texas, California, New Mexico, and Arizona--while undocumented Mexican immigrants are called "illegal aliens." The anti-"alien" scapegoating is spreading rapidly to legal immigrants. Think about how successful the Big Lie technique has been: how easy it's been to scapegoat women on welfare. How easy it's been to roll back civil liberties with the excuse of fighting the racially biased "War on Drugs." How easy it's become to spend more money on prisons and less on education. How easy it's been to relabel millions of children as illegitimate.


___________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.publiceye.org/eyes/hs_econo.html

[piedmont]

45. guilt by association fallacy

Just because some freeper types (who I believe are wrong on most issues) believe that illegal immigration is a problem, that doesn't mean that we should take the opposite position. By the way, I'm curious about your particular policy ideas. Do you believe that any action should be taken regarding illegal immigration? If so, what would it be?


Although the Defining Characteristics in terms of the enviornment or the economical problems do not point to immigration.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Would you clarify?

[inthebrain]

47. Claiming guilt by association is a lazy way out here

it's often meant to minimize the impact of YOUR policies.

Who's responsible for the declining wages? What institutions and policies keeps wages up?

Who's responsible for the fact that generation by generation people benefit less from the economy?

Who consumes the most in our society?

What causes polution? Is it consumption or what we consume?

How are poor immigrants responsible for all of this?

The folks who are puching the anti immigration arguments are classists as well as racists. Racism and scapegoating are tools used by elites to misdirect class anger and deflect responsiblity. Lou Dobbs is very much a part of this mechanism and uses the same tools that Union Busters utelized during the industrial revolution. It's nothing new and it's negative effect are well recorded.

Yet, the same groups that were commonly demonized are the same folks who built the middle class; Poor immigrants that were scapegoated by the capitalist aperatus. Right wing policies are always centered on scapegoating and they are designed by elites to get those at the bottom to fight over scraps.

Your use of enviornmental issues strongly harken to social darwinism which is a fascist economic principle.

[beaconess]

50. THANK you!!!

[piedmont]

59. Using guilt by association arguments is lazy

Pointing out a fallacy is, well, just pointing out a fallacy.

it's often meant to minimize the impact of YOUR policies.
I don't know what the heck you're talking about. Care to share your policy?

The current policy seems to be aimed at keeping the supply of one particular pool of unskilled labor (illegal immigrants) high by lax enforcement of immigration laws, while taking that pool's rights away by denying them any legal status. So the result is a high number of workers who can't negotiate a fair wage. Apply the laws of supply and demand and wages for all unskilled workers suffer.

What causes polution? Is it consumption or what we consume?

Environmental concerns about overpopulation are about more than pollution. No population can grow infinitely. At some point the population outstrips its resources and will then crash. For that reason alone I am for zero population growth policies.


The folks who are puching the anti immigration arguments are classists as well as racists. Racism and scapegoating are tools used by elites to misdirect class anger and deflect responsiblity. Lou Dobbs is very much a part of this mechanism and uses the same tools that Union Busters utelized during the industrial revolution. It's nothing new and it's negative effect are well recorded.
Again, saying that something is bad because those bad people do it won't cut it.


Your use of enviornmental issues strongly harken to social darwinism which is a fascist economic principle.

Bullshit. My "use" of the environmental consequences of uncontrolled population growth alludes to fact.

I'm certainly in favor of providing aid to poor people. Aid programs, when executed well, provide a leg up to a better life to people who have been let down or beaten down by their governments. Spending aid money in the countries where the immigrants are coming from and enacting policies that build up those economies is one part of the solution. Helping those who already here negotiate a fair wage and giving them incentives to return home could be another. Better enforcement at the border is another.

edited: fixed italics screw-up

[inthebrain]

63. You have to prove that it's a fallacy

Lou Dobbs is not just associated with white supremacist groups, HE HAS FUCKING ENDORSED THEM!!!!!!! Where the fuck are you confused by that?


GET IT?

You're guilt by association claim was lazy and that's putting it mildly.

[piedmont]

67. You really should re-read this sub-thread

When I pointed out that you were using guilt by association (which does NOTHING to advance an argument), I was responding to your post #42. In that post you made no reference to Lou Dobbs or the minutemen. There is no need for incivility.

As I've said before, I am sincerely interested in hearing your thoughts on what policies should be continued, and which should be changed regarding this issue.

[inthebrain]

76. Post number 42 is about scapegoating

It's related.

Most folks take up this issue because they see it as a no brainer. It's not!!!!

Lou Dobb's is scapegoating immigrants. They are not responsible for the falling wages. They are not responsible for the fact that this economy works for no one. Yet, it seems many people like to blame powerless people because it's convenient. This sums it up;

Scapegoating fuels fear and fear fuels scapegoating. It is not far-fetched to see the seeds of "ethnic cleansing"--the widely-adopted euphemism for genocide in the former Yugoslavia--in the widespread support given California's Proposition 187. Land plundered from Mexico is called Texas, California, New Mexico, and Arizona--while undocumented Mexican immigrants are called "illegal aliens." The anti-"alien" scapegoating is spreading rapidly to legal immigrants. Think about how successful the Big Lie technique has been: how easy it's been to scapegoat women on welfare. How easy it's been to roll back civil liberties with the excuse of fighting the racially biased "War on Drugs." How easy it's become to spend more money on prisons and less on education. How easy it's been to relabel millions of children as illegitimate.

[piedmont]

80. but clearly not referencing Lou Dobbs

Most folks take up this issue because they see it as a no brainer.
I certainly don't. I hope you don't either.

They are not responsible for the fact that this economy works for no one.
And who do you believe is responsible? What would you do about it?

Lou Dobb's is scapegoating immigrants.
Maybe. He spends most of his time (that I've seen) going after stupid/asshole U.S. policies and corporate exploitation of a situation that CEOs and their errand-boys in politics have created.

The anti-"alien" scapegoating is spreading rapidly to legal immigrants.

I have not seen this at all. Unless you mean the KKK and their ilk. The only people I have seen that try to muddy the discussion by dropping the "illegal" in "illegal immigrants" are pro-illegal immigrant advocates.



Good night. Perhaps I will take this up later.

[inthebrain]

101. It referenced scapegoating

read the rest of the link.

Fist it was that welfare mothers.

Now it's the immigrants.

Who's next on the docket?

[rman]

105. Actually, It is a "free trade" issue

Capitalism-as-we-know-it in general and globalization (ie NAFTA) in particular create regulations that are to the disadvantage of the common people (and that are to the benefit of the already rich and powerful) - more so in poor countries than in wealthy countries.
This is what creates the circumstances that make it worthwhile for Mexicans to (illegally) immigrate to the US.

[Odin2005]

51. Since when is being against ILLEGAL immigration racist?

He's never attacked immigrants who have come here legally AFAIK. If you want to become an American citizen you have to FOLLOW THE RULES, NO SHORTCUTS.

[inthebrain]

55. Lou Dobb's is a racist

I've already proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How many people who aren't racist call white supremacists "patriots".

I've also already thrown down the guantlet on this issue on another thread. I requested that the immigration hawks give one example from history where a tightened border increases wages. It has 70 views and has been up for half an hour and not one has answered the question.

This is scapegoating.

It's them same as when Clinton attacked welfare mothers.

[Odin2005]

57. You didn't answer my question

I didn't say Dobbs wasn't a racist, I said that being a against ILLEGAL immigration does not necessarily make you a racist.

[inthebrain]

58. NOBODY HAS MADE THAT CLAIM

I call bullshit.

Find me where anyone has said that?

[rman]

106. BUT YOU DAMN WELL SUGGESTED IT

"...KKKs Grand Dragon. I'm waiting for him to harken "blood and soil"."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2962383&mesg_id=2962383


"They are careful to phrase the things they say so that it's literally true, just misleading." - Paul Krugman

[Mr_Spock]

54. He's good and bad

I'll take him over a RW commentator any day though...

[inthebrain]

56. Even though he is a right wing commentator?

LOL

This guy cites the Heritage Foundation and the CCC.

[Mr_Spock]

60. He was called a leftist liberal by conservatives

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about - take off your hate blinders for a minute and snap out of it.

[inthebrain]

62. I've proven this with facts

You've brought nothing.

Yet I'm the one with hate blinders?

Here's a challenge for you;

1) Find one example where I claim that white supremacist are "Patriots".

2) Find one example where I've ever excused,dismissed or made excuses for anyone who has done so.

Then we can discus what hate blinders are and what side of the political spectrum wears them.

[Mr_Spock]

64. What kind of idiotic rhetoric is that

"white supremacists are 'patriots'" - lol

You are pushing the rhetoric beyond reality - there's no discussing with someone who has decided to hate someone, no matter how irrationally.

Dobbs has done more for the liberal cause than 1000 one issue people like you have ever done.

[inthebrain]

66. Dobbs is no liberal

Lookee here. Sound like a liberal to you?

___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Dobbs's immigration reporting marked by misinformation, extreme rhetoric, attacks on Mexican president, and data from organization linked to white supremacists


Summary: On CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, Lou Dobbs claimed that the Senate immigration bill, which includes numerous provisions targeting illegal immigration, does "absolutely nothing for border security." On the same show, correspondent Casey Wian characterized Mexican President Vicente Fox's trip to Salt Lake City, Utah, as a "Mexican military incursion," and claimed that "ou could call" Fox's trip to the United States "the Vicente Fox Aztlan tour" -- drawing a baseless link between Fox and the reconquista movement, which maintains that portions of the American Southwest belong to Mexico.
On the May 23 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, host Lou Dobbs claimed that a Senate immigration bill, which includes numerous provisions targeting illegal immigration, does "absolutely nothing for border security." Later, during the same broadcast, CNN correspondent Casey Wian characterized Mexican President Vicente Fox's trip to Salt Lake City, Utah, as a "Mexican military incursion," and claimed that "ou could call" Fox's trip to the United States "the Vicente Fox Aztlan tour" -- drawing a baseless link between Fox and the reconquista movement, which maintains that portions of the American Southwest (territory referred to by supporters of the theory as "Aztlan") belong to Mexico. During Wian's report, CNN featured a graphic of "Aztlan" that was sourced to the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) -- an organization linked to white supremacists.

Reporting on the Senate immigration bill, Dobbs said: "Still ahead here, as the Senate moves closer to voting for a bill that would give amnesty to illegal aliens and do absolutely nothing for border security, one of the legislation's leading critics joins me, Senator Jeff Sessions . Senator Sessions says the Senate should be ashamed of itself." As Media Matters for America has noted, however, the proposed immigration legislation includes numerous provisions to increase border security. On March 27, the Senate Judiciary Committee approved an immigration bill based on the "Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act" -- sponsored by Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and co-sponsored by Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA). A fact sheet provided by Kennedy stated that, in addition to providing a guest worker program and a path for illegal immigrants to gain citizenship, the bill that emerged from the Senate Judiciary Committee would:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605240011

[Mr_Spock]

70. I agree with almost all of his positions - except immigration

Fortunately, I am more than a 1 issue person, he has done WAY more good for Democrats than not.

Your definition is yours - don't assume I think like you.

He is more liberal than many Democrats - this is the world we live in.

[inthebrain]

72. More liberal than Democrats?

That's a hard claim to make considering that this party leans more center right. Attacking Bush does not make one a democrat.

His solutions for immigration are from a far right white supremacist persectve. That is his scapegoating of immigrants for the problem.

He might agree with liberals on a few issues but his scapegoating folks who have no real political powere is very anti Liberal. Democrats as a party really don't have much of a left wing either.

His key issue, immigration was a stinker in this election.

[Mr_Spock]

74. His latest issue is immigration - he has had many "issues"

including many close to my heart like outsourcing (Exporting America) and NAFTA etc... I don't have to agree with his harsh stance on immigration to realize that he is a lot more than 1 issue like you give him credit for. He has a very liberal audience that typically gives his poll questions a 90% liberal weighting. Try actually watching him for a few weeks.

[inthebrain]

77. He has issues

on that we agree.

[inthebrain]

68. LOL

What a liberal!!!!!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Dobbs: "I support the Minuteman Project and the fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished, fully, relentlessly, and proudly"


Summary: Responding to a critical Wall Street Journal editorial, CNN's Lou Dobbs announced his support for the Minuteman Project, in which volunteers monitor the U.S.-Mexico border for illegal immigrants.
During a discussion of a December 9 Wall Street Journal editorial on immigration on the December 9 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, host Lou Dobbs announced, "I support the Minuteman Project and the fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished, fully, relentlessly, and proudly."

The Minuteman Project describes its movement as "a call to bring national awareness to the decades-long careless disregard of effective U.S. immigration law enforcement. It is a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the 'rule of law', not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders." Among its activities is the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, groups of volunteers who monitor U.S. borders with Mexico and Canada to help stop what it calls "he human flood breaching our Homeland Defense." The Minuteman Project has been touted by conservative outlets such as Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, which has featured Minuteman organizers and supporters, often without providing an opposing viewpoint.

The Journal editorial examined a December 6 congressional election in California in which Minuteman Project organizer Jim Gilchrist, who campaigned as an independent on the issue of immigration, received 24 percent of the vote to winner Jim Campbell's (R) 45 percent. Dobbs objected to the Journal's characterization of Campbell's withdrawal of support for the guest-worker provision of President Bush's immigration reform as "panicking" in the face of Gilchrist's challenge, claiming instead that Campbell is "smart enough to listen to the concerns of his new constituents." Gilchrist was a guest on the December 7 edition of Lou Dobbs Tonight.

From the December 9 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight:

DOBBS: All right. Bill Tucker, thank you very much. The lead editorial in The Wall Street Journal this morning is entitled "Immigration (Spin) Control." And then, without embarrassment or even a remote sense of irony, goes on to spin the issues of border security and illegal immigration. The Journal editorial writer, in fact, managed in limited space to confuse illegal immigration and legal immigration, dismiss the significance of border security altogether, and while the Journal pandered to big business and the open-borders advocates, it managed to suggest the Republican winner of the Orange County, California, congressional election is panicked because he's smart enough to listen to the concerns of his new constituents and to insist on border security before he pledges to take on the issue of immigration reform.

At the same time, the Journal editorial basically suggested that Bill O'Reilly and I are somehow relentless in our support of the Minuteman Project, the volunteer group that works hard to bring attention to our border security crisis. And I just want to be clear to the Journal and to this audience: I support the Minuteman Project and the fine Americans who make it up in all they've accomplished, fully, relentlessly, and proudly.

—E.H.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200512120004

[inthebrain]

69. "Liberal Media" conspiracy?

This is your idea of a liberal?
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Dobbs suggested that "liberal bias" kept the media from criticizing Colbert


Summary: CNN's Lou Dobbs raised the question of whether it was a reflection of the mainstream media's purported "liberal bias" that Comedy Central host Stephen Colbert's lampooning of President Bush at the White House correspondents' dinner "was not more heavily criticized." But Dobbs's assumption that the media tilts to the left is contradicted by the imbalance on his own show, which regularly hosts far more conservative guests than liberal ones.
On the May 2 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, host Lou Dobbs raised the question of whether it was a reflection of the mainstream media's purported "liberal bias" that Comedy Central host Stephen Colbert's lampooning of President Bush at the April 29 White House Correspondents' Association dinner "was not more heavily criticized." But Dobbs's assumption that the media tilts to the left is contradicted by the imbalance on his own show, which regularly hosts far more conservative guests than liberal ones. Even the panel that Dobbs assembled on May 2 -- and subsequently questioned about the media's liberal bias -- featured two conservatives and one liberal.

Media Matters for America recently conducted studies of guests appearing on the three major Sunday morning talk shows, MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews, Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, and MSNBC's Scarborough Country. In each case, these surveys determined that conservative guests have far outnumbered liberal ones. The outcome was no different with Lou Dobbs Tonight: An examination of all episodes airing in January and February 2006 found that "Republicans and conservatives have dominated" the show's guest list. Among the central findings:

[Mr_Spock]

71. Keep showing your inability to think for yourself

I don't give a crap how good you are at cutting and pasting - I have been watching Lou on and off for several years - I know where he stands on issues from direct absorption, not from reading the internet :eyes:

[inthebrain]

73. I'm not going ask you to offer any facts

It's obviously a waste of time.

It is obvious that you have no idea what a real liberal is. Lou Dobb's is not a real liberal. He's not even a leftist.

The only thing I've gleaned from this exchange from you is that you share some things in common with George Bush. So does Lou Dobbs and many others. You have taken your stances on an act of faith. There is not real analysis in terms of proving that anyting Lou Dobbs proposes is right.

All the facts on his immigration stances show the he is dead fucking wrong.

We need to look at objective facts when drawing conclusions. The fact that so many refrain from doing that and take their stances on faith is the real problem with politics today.

[Mr_Spock]

75. "It is obvious that you have no idea what a real liberal is"

You'll make lots of friends with an attitude like that :eyes:

How arrogant can one person possibly get?

[inthebrain]

79. I'm not here to make friends

This is the internet.

Do you have the Howard Zinn quote in your sig because you like the quote or have you read the man?

[upi402]

83. huh? He's an anti-corporatist

"He's nothing more than another trickle down economist and a one trick pony."
He's one of the very very few on air who rant against the corporate rape of workers and the concurrent takeover of our government.

:wtf:

[inthebrain]

86. WTF?

He's not the first person in history ever to do this. Many corporation take advantage of anti illegal sentiment to deflect responsibility onto a scape goat. It's nothing new.

Lou Dobbs, if he was such an anti corporatist would support the union stance which is a path to full citizenship, tearing down right to work laws and tossing taft hartly. The Union stance is also an open border stance which forces wage increases in Mexico(Gee, cheap labor bastards down their have to compete with our labor standards. Isn't that how capitalism is supposed to work) and allows for workers in other countries to join our labor unions.

Securing the border increases the exploitation.

[upi402]

87. False. The union stance is definitely NOT unfettered import of labor

and definitely not for illegal labor especially.

[inthebrain]

88. The Union stance is for open boarders for labor

Nobody claimed that they support exploiting immigrants.


What Union Members Should Know About . . .
The AFL-CIO Policy on Immigration


The AFL-CIO proudly stands on the side of immigrant workers. Immigrant workers are an extremely important part of our nation’s economy, our nation’s union movement and our nation’s communities. In many ways, the new AFL-CIO immigration policy signals a return of the union movement to its historical roots. It is increasingly clear that if the United States is to have an immigration system that really works, it must be simultaneously orderly, responsible and fair. The policies of both the AFL-CIO and our country must reflect those goals.


The United States is a nation of laws. This means the federal government has the sovereign authority and constitutional responsibility to set and enforce limits on immigration. It also means our government has the obligation to enact and enforce laws in ways that respect due process and civil liberties, safeguard public health and safety and protect the rights and opportunities of workers.

The current system is broken

Unfortunately, the current system of immigration enforcement, while failing to stop the flow of
undocumented people into the United States, is causing workplace discrimination against
immigrants and minorities, particularly undocumented workers. The current system leaves
unpunished unscrupulous employers who exploit undocumented workers and retaliate against them
when they join with other workers to assert their rights, thus denying labor rights for all workers.

This system of workplace immigration enforcement in the United States, with its emphasis on the I 9 system, is broken, targets workers instead of the egregious employers who exploit them and needs to
be fixed.

Labor’s principles
We believe the following principles should form our
national immigration policy. Specifically:

• Undocumented workers and their families
make enormous contributions to their communities
and workplaces and should be provided
permanent legal status through a new legalization
program;

• Employer sanctions and the I-9 system should
be replaced with a system that targets and
criminalizes employers who recruit undocumented
workers from abroad for economic
gain;

• Immigrant workers should have full workplace
rights, including the right to organize and protections
for whistle-blowers;

• Government safety net benefits are important
for all workers, and those unfairly taken away
by Congress in 1996 should be restored.

• Labor and business together should design
mechanisms to meet legitimate needs for new
workers without compromising the rights andopportunities of workers already here; and

• Guest worker programs should be reformed
but not expanded.

The AFL-CIO supports a broad legalization program that makes no distinction based on country of origin and that allows undocumented workers and their families who have been working hard, paying taxes and contributing to their communities theopportunity to adjust to permanent legal resident
status. We should recognize that one of the reasons for undocumented immigration is that our current
legal immigration system for family members and for workers is in shamefully bad shape. A broad
legalization program providing permanent residence status, rather than a large new guest worker program, should be the focus of our efforts.

The AFL-CIO and its affiliated unions will work vigilantly with our coalition partners representing the immigrant, ethnic, faith and civil rights communities to ensure that comprehensive legislation providing for legalization and the enforcement of workplace rights for all workers is introduced in Congress and ultimately signed into law.

History has proven that mistreatment of one group in a workplace ultimately will lead to the mistreatment of all workers. We must be mindful of and learn from the history of oppression that many U.S. workers have faced, in particular the long struggle of African American workers. All workers must understand the difference that unions make for workers, whether it is a living wage, better benefits or a safer work environment.

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/civilrights/immigration/upload/AFLCIOPO.pdf

[upi402]

92. that states unions do NOT support illegal workers

they support legal workers only. They have a plan to work on a program to legalize any workers doing a job in America.

It also want to start CRIMINAL charges against employers who exploit illegal immigrant labor.

[inthebrain]

100. Unions attack the status not the workers themselves.

A little stdying of history on the subject might do you some good. Employers have long used citizenship status to get workers to attack eachother. The unions are not taking the bait this time.

Good for them.

For those that are going so far as to excuse Lou Dobbs propping up white nationalists......SHAME ON YOU ALL!!!!!

[Eurobabe]

84. No he's not, and I don't agree with the all out amnesty program

My husband came into the country the legal way with a VISA, and paid his dues with INS to get a green card. Why can't the rest that sneak in here under cover of night, or stay longer than their papers are valid, play by the rules?

Inquiring minds REALLY want to know. I've lived through this shit with INS, have you?

[inthebrain]

85. My Granparents did

and it didn't cost them $5,000 to go through the system. Despite the fact that Americans corporations were exploiting the cheap labor atmosphere in Nazi Germany.

I suppose our corporations don't kill people south of the border or beat their workers on the factory floor. We just refuse to call that fascism and call it by it's friendlier term; Capitalism.

[Eurobabe]

89. Let's get real, you know this is not 1900 anymore.

Things have changed.

My grandparents on BOTH sides came over in 1900s from Germany too, with no visas. But it's a different world now.

This immigrant argument always causes a flamefest. I said what I did and that is my opinion, there are alot of people on DU who don't agree with it. So be it. I have my reasons for believing what I do.

[inthebrain]

90. Let me tell ya something

Had some of these folks on here been in charge of immigration when our grandparents were in Germany, neither of us would be here. Ya better check the folks just to be sure.

fact of the matter is that time doesn't really matter. Who it is that immigrates does. Our immigration policy has always been classist first and racist second.

[Eurobabe]

91. Well, like I said, it's a whole new ball of wax

seems like you started this thread so you could find somebody to argue with, I'm done. I stated my reasons for believing how I do, if you don;t like it and Lou Dobbs, that is your perogative. See ya! :hi:

[inthebrain]

96. I had no idea you were such an elitest

Not that I ever knew you before.

Seems to be the these amongst the Dobbs supporters. Let everyone eat crow. How strange that this board has taken such a rightward turn since the election.

I can't change the mind of one who feels no shame.

[jonnywishbone97]

95. if you dont have a green card to be here

GET THE HECK OUT OF HERE BEFORE WE BUST YOU. Im sick of illegals taking american jobs. And if thats a republican trait SO BE IT!!! thats one thing they have right if not the only thing.

[flying_monkeys]

102. How so?

How, exactly, are they "taking American jobs"? And are these jobs ones that would fill easily if we deported all the illegals currently filling them?


Jobs aren't owned by any nationality. One could also argue that the jobs being filled are helping keep prices down for the American consumer, or helping the Small Business Owner stay competitive....


I am not going to dicker over jobs out in the fields that don't pay well - - I'll save my ire for the better paying IT jobs being outsourced to foreign companies and the like overseas. THERE is where our jobs are flying - - not because of illegals forced to live in the shadows.

[Raydawg1234]

98. I piss on anyone who "plays the race card"

My ancestors came here legally, why should these new immigrants be given an exception?

All you DU'ers who blindly support illegal immigrants, forget one thing, America has poor people of its own. Once you solve poverty in America, then you can help Mexico's. Anything else is traitorous.

[inthebrain]

99. Then you can piss on me

You wouldnt know the first thing about fixing poverty except to blame one sectione of poor folk for everyone else poverty. We saw the same game played with welfare mothers.

It didnt work and things are a whole lot worse as a result. If this is your versions of America then I am quite proud to be a traitor to it.

[Raydawg1234]

103. one section of poor folk that should have stayed the fuck in their own country

[inthebrain]

115. Thats where the bigotry and the classism comes in

Real liberal fight for equality for all people no matter where they are. Whether they are legal here or not all people are entitled to a fair wage.

You fight to increase the division whereas I am more interested in eliminating it. Lou Dobbs is the same way. Many of you folks only speak in liberal platitudes but the real ones can tell the difference.

[AzDar]

110. I don't agree with Dobbs 100% of the time, but he is spot-on in regards

to certain issues: the outsourcing of jobs; the danger manifest in the unreliability of e-voting; and the unsustainable influx of illegal immigrants. He's speaking out when most won't....

[grizmaster]

112. every illegal immigrant stole the place of someone

who wanted to come here legally

Border security is not racist. And being against people entering the country in a criminal fashion isn't racist either.

[jpwhite]

114. I like how he has fought against outsourcing

I like how Lou Dobbs has fought against outsourcing. I grew up in upstate NY and my parents both worked for Oneida Ltd. (silverware) After Oneida Ltd. started making silverware in China, the company shut down the manufacturing plant in my hometown. The silverware from initially from China was crappy so some people in my hometown bought the plant and started to make silverware for Oneida Ltd. So my dad lost his job, and then my mom who works at the distribution plant is losing her job because they are moving the distribution plant to Georgia. My parents are going to retire early so they won't be hurting too badly but what about the others? What about these middle class families who are going to be in a bad situation because Oneida Ltd. decided to move things around to save money?

We need to do something to fix this problem. I understand companies exist to make a profit, but why are they continually allowed to screw people?

James
[e-mail]

[inthebrain]

116. Neo Nazis thinks Bush and the Jews blew up the WTC

Wanna prop those guys up to make a point about Bush's devious political connections?

Afterall, it's not really about going after those responsible and what they really did. Just because Lou Dobbs makes a point about outsourcing doesn't mean I'm willing to treat the guy as a hero or prop him up. He promotes white naionalists on his show and his anti illegal bent is steeped in racism and bigotry.