Speakers shape choice of undecided voter (ME caucus - good DK press)

[MaineDem]

Not even a week ago, Lena Weiner-Sorgman didn't think much of U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich, the Ohio congressman who wants the Democratic Party's nomination for president.

"I can't even say his name," she said five days ago.

As for former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, forget it.

"Too conservative," the 67-year-old longtime Democrat proclaimed.

So when she arrived at the Portland Democratic caucus Sunday afternoon, she had pretty much written off those two candidates. She sort of liked retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, didn't mind Sen. John Edwards and felt some warmth toward Sen. John Kerry. The Rev. Al Sharpton had said all the right things as far as she was concerned, but she didn't think he could beat President Bush.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/state/040209undecided.shtml

[Mairead]

1. Great article, thanks for posting it!

The people like Lena W-S are the ones who elected FDR, JFK, and LBJ. The ones who made the Dem party the force for the People that it once was. Our rulers must still fear them.

[IrateCitizen]

2. Yup. Exclude him from the debates, he's not "viable"...

It just amazes me to no end to hear stories like this. Dennis Kucinich has a great message of hope and vision for a better future, but the media serves themselves instead of the people in ignoring him.

What the f*** do we have to do to change this? A new Constitutional Convention, anyone???? :shrug:

[HFishbine]

3. Kucinich Voters Amaze Me

Especially those who dismiss Dean as too conservative yet will consider Edwards.

1) On Capital Punishment

In an interview with Tim Russert on MTP, Dean explained that, while he used to be against the death penalty under any circumstances, the murder of Polly Klaus and a similar case in Vermont had him reconsider. (1)

He now believes "the death penalty should be available for extreme and heinous crimes, such as terrorism or the killing of police officers or young children. But it must be carried out with scrupulous fairness." (2) (See footnote for further action Dean would take regarding capital punishment.)

This is certainly a little closer to Kucinich's position than Edwards who voted to pass a bill that would allow children as young as 14 to face the death penalty (3). That bill is now law.

2) On Labor

Edwards twice voted against raising the minimum wage by a mere $1 over three years.(4) He voted to nearly double the number of H-1B visas to allow more foreign workers to enter the country. (5) He also voted to change bankruptcy laws to make it easier for creditors to force debtors into a payment plan. (6)

Dean, on the other hand, supports a myriad of pro-labor positions too numerous to list here. They include card check off for union membership (ask a union person how important that is), signed a bill in Vermont to prohibit permanent replacement of striking workers and would do the same for federal employees, and signed the most sweeping family leave law in the country while governor. (7)

3) On the War

Dean frequently misspoke about being the only candidate to have opposed the war. It was something that made this supporter cringe. However, he was also the only candidate to ever give Kucinich props for his vote against the war on national TV -- on several occasions.

Dean said, time and time again, that he didn't think the evidence at hand supported attacking Iraq. Like Kucinich, Sharpton and Braun, he was among those who never voted for the war.

Edwards, as we know, voted for the war resolution that Kucinich voted against. To this day, he still says that, not only was his vote correct, but that we were right to go to war. He thinks attacking Iraq was the right thing to do.

4) Withdrawing Troops from Iraq

Kucinich and Sharpton are the only candidates who support an immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq (within 90 days). None of the candidates however are suggesting we leave a power vacuum. Denise, just like Dean, thinks that the way to get our troops out is to get multi-national forces in and Dean has a very clear and reasonable plan for doing so. (8)

5) Health Care

Only Sharpton and Kucinich favor single-payer health care. The differences between Dean and Edwards are significant. Edwards' proposal would expand health care by mandating that families insure their under-21 children. Those who can afford to purchase coverage through an insurance company will receive tax credits worth roughly $300. Poorer families will be required to pay to enroll their children in CHIPS (a government sponsored child insurance plan). The poorest children, as they are today, will be covered for free. Edwards plan incentivises the purchase of private insurance for children. He offers no solutions for un-insured adults.(9)

Dean's proposal would expand CHIPS to cover people up to age 25 for middle and low income families. Adults who make up to 185% of the poverty level, would also be able to buy into CHIPS. To provide assistance to those who make more than 185% of the poverty level, Dean would create a health system similar to the one offered to federal employees and he'll offer tax breaks to make it more affordable. (10)

It is Dean's plan that offers the broadest coverage. Edwards' plan is more narrow, offers no help to uninsured adults and it would funnel money (by mandate) to insurance companies.

6) Military Spending

Edwards voted to approve Bush's military budget every year he's been in office. (11) Edwards also voted to approve the National Missile Defense System (12) but voted against a bill that would require sanctions against China if they were found to be selling WMD.

Howard Dean pledges to keep our fighting force the most effective in the world, but he is clearly against the development of "battlefield" "bunker busting" or "low yield" nuclear weapons (13)(Edwards? Since he voted for Bush't miliatry bugets, he must favor them).

Dean also would actively seek to make the use of military force obsolete by asserting America's role in the world as a peaceful nation. He would seek to strengthen international alliances and repair damaged relations. He rejects the notion of pre-emptive war (which Edwards embraces to this day) as anything but a last resort and only when absolutely necessary to secure our country. (14)

We haven't even touched on the issues of civil liberties and GLBT rights, on which there are also marked differences between Dean and Edwards, but any honest look at the facts will clearly show that on principles and policies, Dean is far closer to Kucinich than Edwards.




1) http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~gabriel/dean2004blog/Dean_MTP_June_22_2003.htm

2) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_capitalpunishment

3) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2264&can_id=CNC68243

4) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2644&can_id=CNC68243

5) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2915&can_id=CNC68243

6) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2658&can_id=CNC68243

7) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_labor

8) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_policy_foreign_iraq_7pointplan

9) http://www.johnedwards2004.com/healthcare-children.asp

10) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_health

11) http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=CNC68243

12) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2187&can_id=CNC68243

13) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_policy_foreign_issue_nuclearweapons

14) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_foreign

[IrateCitizen]

4. Zzzzzzzzzz.....

Still trying to make this imaginary case, eh HFishbine???

:boring:

[HFishbine]

7. Ah, those pesky imaginary facts.

Yeah. Boring alright.

[IrateCitizen]

8. It certainly seems to be to everyone except for you

But if it makes you feel good to keep on doing it, by all means continue. Just don't disappoint yourself by expecting converts.

[HFishbine]

9. You're welcome

to refute the facts I present. A counter-post that shows why Edwards should be considered more appealing to Kucinich voters than Dean would be more credible (not to mention more interesting) than vapid remarks directed at me and void of compelling facts.

[IrateCitizen]

12. Ummm... Kucinch is who appeals to Kucinich voters.

Your attempts to inflate the strategic decision made at the IA caucus between Kucinich and Edwards into a convergence of their campaigns is utterly disingenuous.

But like I said, if you gain pleasure out of presenting the same non-existent case over and over, feel free to continue doing so.

[youngred]

23. you're absolutey right

those facts are imaginary

[cosmicdot]

5. but, the article said, for Lena Weiner-Sorgman ...

"It was between him (Kucinich) and Dean."

The more crucial matter for all Democrats, and our Nation, is Lena's comments RE the press and its blackout of Dennis Kucinich:

"How come the press has written him off?" she asked. "I'm very, very impressed."

[LWolf]

10. Ahem.

The article is about a democrat choosing who to caucus for. It was between Dean and Kucinich, and Kucinich got the vote. While she said she thought Dean was too conservative, she liked him. And:

Kate Roberts, a Maine social worker who spoke on behalf of John Edwards, lost Weiner-Sorgman - and her enthusiasm - early.

So what is the point here? What amazes you? That Kucinich voters prefer Kucinich to Dean? That voters who actually hear Dennis and get to know him vote for him, and that he shouldn't be ignored or marginalized (which was the point of this article)? What does all of that hard work you put into comparing Dean and Edwards have to do with this article or this thread?

[IrateCitizen]

11. He's still stuck on the Iowa caucuses...

Specifically, the strategic decision by Kucinich to make a deal with Edwards to have their delegates support the other candidate in areas in which they were below the threshold of 15%. According to HFishbine, this was a sellout of progressive ideals on the part of Kucinich -- and he should have instead not made a deal, regardless of how it might affect his ability to pick up any delegates.

That decision has been transformed into Kucinich campaign support for the Edwards campaign, according to HFishbine. It's really not much different from the line used by the Bush administration to show an alliance between Saddam Hussein and Osama. "They both hate America, so they must be allies of each other."

:eyes:

[HFishbine]

14. The attentive

will note that I am providing concrete facts (as opposed to hot air) and that the Iowa alliance has nothing to do with the comparisons I make. Dismissing the facts at hand in favor of speculating about a poster's motives is an indication that the facts cannot be refuted head-on.

[IrateCitizen]

15. Yup. The "silent majority" of attentive folks rushing to your side.

I can almost feel the rush of them upon me, even if I cannot see them or hear their drowning chorus of denunciation for my support of Dennis Kucinich!

[HFishbine]

16. Another strawman

Nowhere did I denounce anybody for supporting Kucinich. My posts have quite clearly been for the purpose of addressing Kucinich supporters' evaluation of Dean vs. Edwards. When the facts can't be refuted, change the subject.

[LWolf]

17. That's what I thought you were doing.

Changing the subject. I understood quite clearly that you were comparing Dean vs Edwards. I just didn't understand why you were doing it here; it's not a thread about Kucinich supporters' evaluation of Dean vs Edwards. It was a thread about an article highlighting one voters' choice of Kucinich over Dean.

[Desertrose]

24. uumm HFishbine...you just made our point thank you..

"When the facts can't be refuted, change the subject."

"My posts have quite clearly been for the purpose of addressing Kucinich supporters' evaluation of Dean vs. Edwards"

This is a thread about Kucinich supporters and undecideds supporting KUCINICH over Dean...hello? Can you stay with us here and not inject an entirely different conversation ??

Peace
DR

[goodhue]

25. the article subject was not a Kucinich supporter

at the time she had written off Dean as too conservative. Read the story again. You may disagree with her analysis of Dean as too conservative (I don't) but don't ascribe it to her support of Kucinich who she also very clearly had written off until she heard the candidates speak.

[MuseRider]

6. Thank you

for posting this great article. It is nice when he gets good press. Also, MaineDem, thank you for Maine and a strong 3rd place!

[redqueen]

13. "How come the press has written him off?"

"I'm very, very impressed."

How many other voters are out there, waiting to make this same kind of comment re: Kucinich?

I wonder...

[revcarol]

18. NAFTA

"fixed us." Lightbulb moment.

Amazing how DK cuts through the chaff and people start to "get it."

[ThirdWheelLegend]

19. The media desperately trying to keep DK's message silent..

As this article demonstrates, when people hear DK speaking from his heart to their hearts they like what they hear. Dean's got lot of angry 'take back america' rhetoric with centrism to back it up.

TWL

[DemBones DemBones]

20. What a nice story. It's too bad we

can't all hear the candidates personally in our own towns.

[Mairead]

21. Perhaps some thank-you letters would be in order here?

His address is [e-mail]

[redqueen]

22. Thanks, Mairead

That's a fabulous idea. :)

[ThirdWheelLegend]

26. and for that..

a kick!

TWL

[Mairead]

27. yab