Well, if they take Dean down I can no longer be a Democrat.

[batman]

I have been a democrat all my life. voted for every one, been very involved at the local level as well. I supported Gore in 2004 and had some displaced anger at Nader. Now I see Nader was right.

I find myself discouraged by what has happened to the best candidate weve seen since the days of john and bobby kennedy.

Why? because the DLC and washington insiders couldn't stand the thought of losing control that's why. They want the status quo to continue the reign over washington. Corporations will continue to defeat the interests of the public and we will all vote for this? How anyone could choose to continue down the path of Corporate ass kissing is beyond me.

I am sickened. I am staying home in Nov 04.

Sorry to be a downer here. but I thought Dean would pull off Maine, it's clear to me that he may not win the nomination, I guess it's just sinking in now.

I will try to dust myself off tomorrow and hope for a win in Wisconsin I guess. :hangover:

[WillParkinson]

1. That's a good idea...

Let's help George Bush win (or steal) four more years!

I, too, thought that Dean would be the eventual nominee. I will not, however, simply not vote because he isn't. No matter how I feel about the other Democratic candidates I simply cannot abide another four years of Bush.

I hope that, eventually, you will come to see that whomever the candidate is, we need to work together and support them to help put Mr. Bush out of a job that he never won and certainly does not deserve.

[Guaranteed]

35. But does any Dem other than Dean or Kucinich deserve it either?

Where the hell have these DLC cowards been for the past 2-3 years? Why the hell should THEY be in the White House? What have they DONE for us? I mean, other than coming out and running for president. :eyes:

[He loved Big Brother]

36. Look, if we can't nominate a candidate that didn't support Bush

then we deserve Bush.

They wouldn't support a nominee that voted for anything Clinton proposed, especially now.

[NNN0LHI]

39. deleted by poster

[Freddie Stubbs]

40. Democratic primary voters so far seems to think that 1 of them deserves it

But what do they know?

[Tweed]

133. Democratic primary voters seem to think 3 of them deserve it

[Warpy]

2. Don't go off in a huff

...just because your guy aint winning. Yes, the DLC treatment of Dean has been shameful. However, the point is to get rid of the greatest danger to the country and the world in recent memory, and that means unseating Bush.

I was sincerely hoping Dean would continue to gather strength, because this is the only way to unseat the old party hacks in the DLC. However, I'm keeping my eyes on the prize, not rooting for a football team. Getting rid of Bush is serious business, as is getting rid of as many Rethuglicans in Congress as we can. Sitting this particular election out is not an option.

[dkf]

13. Frankly, my own people have stabbed me in the back

and they think I'll bend over and take it. Well I don't want to be one of them anymore.

Yesterday, I was actually committing the heresy of thinking of decent Republicans I could vote for before I would vote for Kerry. Unfortunately, I came up with a lot. I just think that Kerry's dirty tricks are on par with Nixon. Sorry but I don't trust the guy farther than I could throw him. (he'll say anything!)

I have never ever voted for a Republican in the past, ever. This experience has turned me into an independent, which may be a good thing.

I now join all decent people in the good fight whether they be Republicans, Democrats, Greens or independents.

[WonderGrunion]

42. Hey!

This fight doesn't end at November 2004. Howard Dean started a fight to not just take this country back, but take our party back as well. I will gladly vote for any dem that wins the nomination, as will Howard Dean. Our fight will continue! :mad:
The DLC thought it could just dismiss Dean and his followers initially. (Many still do)
They thought we would curl up and go away after Iowa (We didn't)
They think we'll just walk in lockstep or stay home after Wisconsin (Fat chance)
Howard Dean did far more than give us a candidate that we could admire, he gave us a reason to love being a Democrat again. Well, love requires work (We'll be back in 2008 after Kerry bungles 2004) and love requires compromise (Hold your nose and pull the lever in November) but it's always worth fighting for.
I'm a Howard Dean democrat and proud. I want my country and my party back!!!
Yeaaaaaarrrrrggghhhh!!! :grr:

[creativelcro]

67. I feel the same.... I'm looking forward to the Dem party

sending me requests for money... I'll send them back with a nice fuck you letter...

[mermaid]

131. Ditto!!

I, too will take the same action when the Democratic Party next asks me for money. I will wirte a nice "fuck you" letter. You want my money? Well, I want my party back! I wanted Dean, y'all made sure I didn't get him...so fuck you, you don't get dollar one from MY wallet!

[mitchum]

140. deleted by mitchum

Because really, what's the fucking use?

[JNelson6563]

145. haha I've been doing that for ages

I always write this on their requests and send it back in their SASE:

As soon as "I stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush" stops ringing in my ears I'll contribute. Not before.

Julie

[dkf]

3. Same here.

And a lot of diehard Dems that are actually party members and have been participating in local politics for years are becoming very disillusioned.

Dean had a whole lot of true blue party faithful who are now seeing the light about the party. Anyone who was in the party because they were idealistic is being brutally educated on what it is all about.

[pezcore64]

98. lol

this is only the second presidential race ive been interested in (im young still) and even I have become disillusioned by whats happened in the primaries thus far.

Ill vote for kerry tho, if hes the nominee. I wont like it. Im like you, I just dont trust him much. It does seem like he'll say whatever it takes.

[bluestateguy]

4. Dean's anti-establishment credentials are overrated

Al Gore, 2 major unions, many members of Congress, many in Hollywood all supported Dean. He also had 45 million in the bank. That kind of money doesn't just come from little old ladies and college students donating 10$ out of their cookie jars. Dean is losing because the voters of the party are choosing someone else. And if the DLC was really as powerful as you say they would not have chosen Kerry, they would have lined support up for Lieberman, Edwards or Graham. They're still really touchy about that whole "Massachusetts liberal" thing.

[dsc]

7. His average donation was around 75 dollars

and the realitively small number of 2000 dollar donations was in many cases from gays and lesbians who donated out of understandable gratitude. Every person I know of who maxed out was in that class of people though I don't claim to know them all by any means.

[LosinIt]

9. Oh, so those little contributions aren't really happening??

First my husband sent $50. Then I sent $10. Last week I sent $30. If I get a tax refund I will send as much as possible. I know lots of other people who have done the same.

[BuelahWitch]

14. Yep, all mine have been in the $10 and $15 range

We do what we can :hi:

[DianeK]

101. i wouldn't call myself a little old lady ...

i will be 50 in a few days and i have given dean a total of 681.00 since july..all in 100.00, 50.00, 20.00 increments

[eyeswideopened]

5. Me Too

[LosinIt]

6. Never thought I would agree with a statement like that

Now I see Nader was right.

It all becomes clear now. If Kerry wins the nomination, and I am NOT
about to believe that yet, then we have two versions of the same thing running for President. We have started looking into moving to Costa Rica. At least they have a democracy there.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

53. ...and health care.

[LosinIt]

119. Yep, and if you establish residency, you can buy into it cheaply

to establish residency you need a verifiable fixed income ~$1000/month, like a retiree, or a disabled vet, or you can invest $50K in reforestation or other worthy projects and be eligible.

[ugarte]

8. Yes, by all means take your marbles and go home

What difference can four more years of Bush possibly make?

Please sleep on it and reconsider.

[lcordero]

10. Uh dude

I am sickened. I am staying home in Nov 04.

I don't feel too positive either but I'm still going to make it to that ballot box. I feel that my vote is still worth something if it helps build a third party.

I'm not particularly fond of Dean but he has put himself into a situation where even if he loses he still wins.

[cprise]

11. Then you may as well vote for a 3rd party

...and help push the policies of whomever does get elected a tiny bit to the Left.

[liberalpress]

57. And of course if enough of us vote third party...

...not only do we get four more years of George Bush, but as someone else here pointed out, Chief Justice Antonin Scalia and Associate Justice John Ashcroft! There is a time to stand up for what you believe... that time comes after Democrats win in 2004.

[Atlant]

60. It's curious how it's *NEVER* the "right" time to vote third party...

It's curious how it's *NEVER* the "right" time to vote third party.
Somehow, the Democrats are always facing the worst threat in memory.

It's funny how the political threat to the D's gets worse each year.
Maybe the D's aren't doing a very good job of very good job of
defending the interests of liberals and progressives, hence the
constantly-worsening political threat level.

I think this year's as good as any I've seen in a long time to
vote third-party.

Atlant

[liberalpress]

62. Which let's Bush win? No thanks. But go ahead.

...and leave your address and phone number so we can all blame you personally

[Atlant]

66. There's *ALWAYS* a Republican bogeyman.

And thanks to the Democrats confirming dubious Right-Wing
Supreme Court justices over the years and being unwilling
to fight for even Clinton's moderate appointees, the Supreme
Court is *ALWAYS* in jeopardy.

But I'm tired of the combined threat that "THIS year, it
really matters" and the empty promise of "but we promise
we'll reform NEXT year!".

The Democrats lost me THIS year.

Atlant

[LynneSin]

150. I think the Dems did a great job of blocking judicial appointments

I also think Dems did a great job of standing up for the environment.

If Bush is given another 4 years, filibusters will mean squat to him. Bush's power will become uncontrollable as he just shoves his justices on the bench and strips away our environment.

You tell me why I should do anything to help get Bush re-elected including voting for a 3rd party candidate for president.

I have no issues voting Green, but I'll support local and state candidates in the Green party. I know that way if the Green party doesn't win those elections at least I'm not giving power to a madman.

[jonnyblitz]

84. and never a good time to be openly supportive of gay rights

issues such as marriage since we need to attract the heterosexual white southern religious bigot vote to win against Bush. Yup its never a good time to take any principled stance, just shut up and fall in line and stop being a "purist".

[Missy Vixen]

90. jonnyblitz, THANK YOU

>and never a good time to be openly supportive of gay rights
issues such as marriage since we need to attract the heterosexual white southern religious bigot vote to win against Bush. Yup its never a good time to take any principled stance, just shut up and fall in line and stop being a "purist".<

There was opportunity to suggest additions to the party platform at Saturday's caucus. DH spoke up and mentioned that he believed it was time to add civil unions at the very least to the platform. An extremely quick and very nasty argument followed. After all, it's a "fringe issue" and the "Republicans will tear us apart" on it.

When will it be the right time?

It sickens me that an entire group of people have their concerns pushed to the back burner every four years because of expediency -- after all, we must eliminate the latest bogeyman, THEN we'll be able to address it!

That day never seems to come, does it?

We voted on the addition of civil unions to the party platform. I'm ashamed to say that it failed by a two-to-one margin.

Do we stand up for those who need us to do so, or not?

Julie

[MaddogTerp]

104. YEAH!!!

Good points Julie and JonnyBlitz!!!

When the party line is consistently to push the TRUTH to the side in order to be politically expedient, at some time the party ceases to be relevant and begins to be the oppressor itself -- even when the party is what started out fighting the oppression.

Dean and/or Kuchinich 2004!!!

[Sotarr2004]

78. Y'know, it's funny. . .

. . .The Right is saying EXACTLY the same thing, except the enemies are the Libertarians and the Constitution Party, as opposed to the Greens.

It makes me think that BOTH major parties have sold out. And chances are, I'd be right. . .

[LiberalBushFan]

12. If pro-Dean people can't see Clark as a good second choice

(if Dean drops out, though I wish him the best), then I can't remain in a party where one half wants compromise with neocons and the other half is too arrogant and paranoid to support the man who could actually stop the compromisers.

At least give Clark a second look before you give up. Now, if they take BOTH Clark and Dean down, I will still try not to stay home, but I'll understand if you do.

But until then, Clark people and Dean people should work together to get out their much-needed messages. And I still think that if Clark or Dean wins, the other may end up as VP. I can tell you Clark certainly won't select any insider.

[BuelahWitch]

17. If Dean drops out I will go with Clark

the other grassroots candidate.

[Egnever]

32. As a Dean suporter I could go to clark as an alternative

However clark is doing worse than Dean in these primaries. the idea that he could stay in and win where Dean could not borders on the sureal. Sure he won oklahoma but thats it. He has hardly picked up a delegate anywhere else. Dean is at least picking up delegates all along the way.

This thing isnt over yet but the idea that if Dean drops out clark will save the day is just amazing to me.

Despite the media touting Deans demise 24/7 he is still in second place in the delegate count. Clark is a distant fourth. How clark people can advance the idea that Clark has a better shot at this point in time is beyond me.

If by some wild twist of fate Dean drops before Clark I will take him in a heartbeat before I will ever go for Kerry, In fact Kerry is dead last on my list of choices.

But I honestly dont see that as being the choice I will be forced to make.

Like the original poster I see my choice coming down to what do I despise more, the idea of bush remaining in office for another four years or the idea of rewarding the democratic party for its actions in this election cycle with a kerry presidency.

What freaks me out at this point is I am seriously jugling the two in my mind and have yet to decide wich will do more harm to the country in the long run.

[batman]

82. I agree, I'm totally torn. I never thought I'd feel this way but seeing

how this election went down has soured me beyond words. I may come around in November, but it will be very difficult.

[Beaker]

15. buh-bye then.

and if you sit home on Nov.4, you have no right to complain about the outcome later.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fizzana]

16. Unfortunately for you a majority of Democratic voters did not

think that Howard Dean was the best candidate since JFK and RFK.

I admire Howard Dean and respect him for his passion and for the way he pushed the Democratic Party in the right direction. I think he has run a brilliant campaign in some respects but in the end his brilliance in creating a base of support didn't translate well into getting the votes out for him.

And yes, I believe he didn't get treated well by the media and possibly by the Party but in the end the majority of voters believed that he wasn't the best man for the job.

Deal with it and help get Bush out in November.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[murielm99]

25. Great post!

Four more years of shrub = reactionary Supreme Court Appointments that will affect us for 30 years or more.

An end to abortion rights, severe restrictions on other types of reproductive rights.

An end to gay rights of any kind, and the possiblity of "looking the other way" at hate crimes against gays. Forget AIDS research!

No more affirmative action, and more racist judges like Pickering.

The end of the Bill of Rights

A possible depression severe enough to dwarf the one we had in the 1930s

One party rule for many many years, perhaps meaning the end of our democracy as we know it

Severe restrictions on the press and the Internet, including sites like this one

Civil war

I am not usually paranoid, but I think four more years of Bush are an invitation to Armageddon.

Poor you! Too pure to vote for the nominee, even if he is not your ideal! Did it ever occur to you that your ideal may not be everyone elses? Personally, I have never seen a perfect candidate. Did you know that politics used to be called "the art of compromise?" The pukes destroyed that definition, which I think was a pretty good one. I think it is up to our party to restore it.

If you sit out this election, or if you write in someone other than the nominee, I think you are unpatriotic.

[MaddogTerp]

109. Uh, Muriel?

"I am not usually paranoid"

I *hate* to defend Bushie on anything, but I think, as you implied yourself, that maybe you are being a little paranoid on this. Armageddon? take your medicine, now, dearie. if Bushie hasn't gotten WWIII started yet, I don't think even he is capable of it, try as he might.

"racist judges like Pickering" he might have a lot of issues, but racism isn't one of them. the NAACP has endorsed Pickering.

"civil war" ?!?!? I don't think Bushie's capable of starting that, either, even if he wanted to, and why would he want to? he's already got the White House, the Congress, and the Senate, and soon enough he'll have the Supreme Court (depending on who dies/retires & when). why on earth would Bushie want to do anything to break that up?

"forget AIDS research" not to belabor the point, but Bushie did promise big bucks to fight AIDS in Africa.

again, I hate defending the guy, but at least be fair about it. if we're not fair in our criticisms, then we're as bad as the repukes are.

[RetroLounge]

48. Anyone but Bush.

Writing in Dean is still anybody but bush*

[molly]

49. AMEN!!!

[DarienComp]

19. Okay look.

I'm a Dean supporter too (look at my post history, if you don't believe me), but I'm not about to stay home and endure another four years of Cokie George because Dean's not going to be the nominee.

Yes Dean was treated unfairly by the media, yes his positions have been mischaracterized by many DLC types, but you know what? Taking your ball and going home is not going to help anyone. It's not going to help the jobless, and it's not going to help the minorities. It's not going to help the sick, and it's not going to help the soldiers. It's only going to help Bush, and I know for a fact that Howard Dean would not want you to do that.

If Kerry wins the nomination, and it's looking more and more like he will, he's got this Deaniac's support. Anybody. But. Bush.

[Melodybe]

24. Bravo, Darien!

ABB is our slogan here, I am not particularly happy with Kerry, but if Kerry gets elected we will not be forced to live in a scary 1984-like, Bizarro USA, which is exactly what is going to happen if * gets re-selected. ABB is the mission here.

After four years of Kerry as president, people will look back at the candidates from this race, and in 2008 I bet we have a few challengers we have seen before. We have to get our foot in the door first. We have to get rid of this racist, sexist, gay-bashing, poor-people squashing administration first!

I beg of you to vote democrat, no matter who it is, we need you.

Go watch Fox news for an hour and remind yourself what this election is really about.

[eileen_d]

20. I'm sorry that you're feeling so discouraged.

Even though I don't agree with your opinions on Dean, it sounds like you had a rought night. Hope you bounce back soon. :hug:

[coloradodem2005]

21. Well...

...I agree with you that Dean is the best candidate. Maybe even too good. Though I cannot abide 4 more years of Bush and I will support Kerry if he is the nominee. I have faith that any of these candidates will do well for us. Maybe not as well as Dean but well. Furthermore, Democracy is predicated on the majority rules concept. If you do not vote then you allow the conservative Bushies to have their way because you do not actively oppose Bush in some way shape or form. Fight for Dean. Don't just throw in the towel if he loses. Find some way to actively oppose Bush.

[eileen from OH]

22. Okay, I'm a Dean supporter and I'm not gonna yell at you. . .

but consider this, please. . .I was also a Gore supporter, and (although too young to vote) also a JFK and RFK supporter. In particular, the death of Bobby was always for me "the night the music died". He wasn't a saint, but his heart and capacity for compassion was so great that to this day, I am more saddened by his loss than any of the others who were also so cruelly taken from us.

And I can't help but think that if he were alive today, he would be the first one to tell you and the rest of us who really invested in the Dean candidacy that the worst thing we can do, if we really honor his memory, is stay home on election day.

Sorry if this sounds maudlin or preachy, and I don't mean to turn it into WWBD. But whether or not Dean wins or loses does not diminish his contribution to the election and the country any more than the death of JFK or RFK did. UNLESS you or me or other Dean supporters let it, by not voting.

eileen from OH

[PATRICK]

58. About crushed candidates

I have seen those who have been wronged and most who have simply cooperated in their own execution. Dean was actually getting backhand support along with the negative treatment. They felt they couldn't touch him with impunity because his supporters quite frankly intimidated them with enthusiasm, money and participation.

Dean could have taken that to a state by state battle, but I have to agree, lousy media coverage and malice granted, he did his own damage at exactly the wrong time in a small caucus that really was inconsequential but skewed both for a conservative "image" and more experienced campaign organization. The fact the media couldn't restrain themselves means that any GOP hopes in taking advantage of Dean's gaffes or other negatives are dashed and in disarray. Kerry got his own mis-starts over early and reorganized. Dean has no such luxury. You might say the same situation as with Clinton and Monica, but no one can claim that Clinton did not help create the crux of his own trouble.

It is not the democratic party in the end Dean supporters should object to as much as the political system that has degraded to the particular gaming of money and media. Yet the voters have had a say too. I would also say, despite Nader's scorched earth theory, that the best option of growing vital third parties on a fairer political field is to vote for Democrats and reforms. Despite the political fisticuffs(and they have been relatively mild) these decent men are not white and black hats but all white hats(slightly tarnished with wear). Forget that and the real villains will tyrannize the world.

[liberalmike27]

83. Patrick

I'm sorry, but you are just wrong. The mischaracterizing of the speech, by the media who many respected, was what killed Dean, not the enthusiastic speech toward supporters Dean delivered that night. Of course, the media had already intensified their attacks on him before Iowa, which finally took hold, just before Iowa, catapulting Kerry (the media's chosen son) and Edwards above Dean. The steering has continued.
You are just wrong, the media picks the candidates, then they pick the general election, and you are going to notice if Kerry gets the nod, that they will be attacking him just like they did Dean, pushing the simplistic sycophants toward Bush, again, who they made, and will make great profits from.
Remember, the media news outlets are nothing but the mouthpieces of huge corporate conglomerates, who profit from war in so many ways you can't count them. I know it's hard to give up misconceptions of youth, but this is all true. You can't trust them, they are the enemy, and most likely Dean was the best guy for you, you were his special interest. Anyone they choose, like Kerry, we need to run away from, arms flailing in the air, screaming bloody murder.

[pacifictiger]

23. don't get too down and discouraged.

Look at the long term, big picture.
Real systemic change never happens overnight and it will take many people committed to making changes, probably over many years. There is a lot to clean up until we have the real democracy that we think we have, but are now discovering, in reality, we do not. I still fervently believe Dean is the right man for the job, or at least a rallying figure for the moment. Dean himself has said on many occasions that the trouble with politicians they just look at things in terms of the election cycle instead of 20-40 years at least into the future. Often times in life we get turned down for one job that we may have our sights set on, but that actually ends up by being the best thing that could possibly happen, because providence sends us something better.
I think whoever becomes president next will probably come out of his term somewhat wounded because of the deep trouble that we are in, both at home and abroad, and it will take a LONG, difficult time to fix. Better that it not be Dean for now, which will keep him available to keep trying to fix things from the inside. He could never make as much progress from the outside. I hope he stays in the race all the way to the convention - as long as he can retain substantial voter support, even if it means 2nd or 3rd, they will not be able to discount the voices that he speaks for.

[charlie]

26. S'alright

It's a long way to November. A break from the tumult of the campaigns might be good for you. And it's plenty of time for Bush to pull more of the shit that can restoke the naked anger that got you championing Dean in the first place. 10 more months of Dubya's unbridled arrogance might convince you to pull the lever for a Dem. In any case, do what you think is right. Take care, be well.

[AP]

27. Although I totally appreciate the sentiment, I find it so curious that

Dean inspired this.

He was actually very pro-corporate when he was governor, and certain elements of his policies were a boon for corporations (his education plan, and refusing to shift much of the tax burden from people who work for a living to people who profit from corporate activities).

If you're really worried about corporations, there are still candidates in the race other than dean who are addressing these issues MUCH more aggressively than Dean ever has.

[Atlant]

68. It wasn't Dean, per se, that inspired this. It was the astonishingly poor

It wasn't Dean, per se, that inspired this. It was the astonishingly
poor treatment that Dean received here and at the hands of the
Democratic establishment.

The same "rally 'round the nominee!" cries that we hear now could
just as easily have applied to him. But he threatened McAulliffe's
job (along with the jobs of a large number of other Party higher-ups)
so he had to be destroyed. Not just defeated, destroyed.

My vote for the Democrats was destroyed in the process.

Atlant

[AP]

75. He got poor treatment from me BECAUSE he was so pro-business.

To me he was pretending he was something he'd never been before (did you read his Cato Inst quotes?).

I'd be more aggravated about Edwards and Kucinich getting short shrift if the corporatocracy is your problem. Dean definitiely doesn't qualify, in my opinion.

[northzax]

128. See, I recall in December

that your hated media had already annointed Dean the nominee. Of course, the fact that he hasn't actually managed to win anything doesn't matter, right? He got slaughtered in Iowa, that had nothing to do with the speech, he got trashed in New Hampshire. Come back when your guy has won a state, he has now lost the two states closest to his home state.

Look, Dean seems like a good guy, and he brought the issues we needed discussed back to the table, but the problem lies in the fact that people don't actually want him to be president. He had the momentum, he had the money, and he lost it. The fault lies in his poor campaign structure, and his inability to run a balanced ground campaign. There were no smoky backroom deals, this isn't 1960, the fact remains that in every primary or caucaus held so far, more democrats voted for someone else.

It wasn't the "party apparatchiks" who led me not to vote for Dean, it was my own personal analysis of his policies, his campaigning and his record. I didn't like everything I saw, and I didn't like his disrespecting DC voters. so I didn't vote for him. If that causes you to leave the Party and vote elsewhere, it is certainly your right to do so, but don't put Dr. Dean on a pedastal. He wasn't ready for Prime Time. And remember that every incoming president appoints a new head of the party, McAuliffe is done in January anyway.

[batman]

92. I have no problem with Governor Dean promoting jobs via business friendly

governship. what I was referring to is the aggressive campaign finance reform that he is promoting. returning power to average citiziens.

It's one thing for a gov to be business friendly and promote job growth, its another to enable corporate control of our democracy.

"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

Abraham Lincoln, November 19, 1863

[AP]

117. He promoted Enron which went out of business. Helping the very largest

corporations unfairly compete agains small businesses isn't good for jobs.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. As a Clark supporter

I'm having alot of the same feelings you are describing. However, there is just no way that I can not support whoever the Dem nominee is, because another 4 years of Bush is just too horrific to contemplate. I could never live with myself if I didn't feel that I did everything I could to help get rid of him.

If the party blows this election and loses to Shrub, I very likely will drop my Dem registration and register either as an independent or a Green, but for me that is out of the question until after the election is over.

[liberalpress]

115. Absolutely right...

...We dems now have the best chance in four years to capture the Whitehouse. If enough of defect it won't happen. If my candidate doesn't get the nod, I AM NOT WILLING to see DimSon in there for another term just so I can gloat and say I told you so. Besides, if "W" wins it's game over. Do you think the neo-cons will risk another election? Look for W to be in charge a longer than "four more." Not me. I'm voting Democrat even if it's the legendary "yellow dog" heading the ticket.

[QC]

29. My candidate's not doing so hot either, but

I'm not going to throw a drama tantrum about it, or accuse everyone who voted for someone else of being a brainwashed sheeple.

Honestly, this stuff is getting old. Our chosen candidates don't always win. That's the game. I supported Hart in 1984 and Simon in 1988, only to see the party nominate the two most absurd candidates in modern history, but I'm still a Democrat.

It's natural to have hurt feelings sometimes, but sitting out this election is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. Not even the "worst" Democrat in the race is anywhere near as bad as Bush, who is a genuine fascist.

[liberalmike27]

88. Not

Clearly, we are not accusing all voters for other candidates sheeple, just those who are switching to Kerry, after being for someone else who is still in the race.

Dean clearly led in many states, and many of the voters who jumped on his bandwagon when he was rightfully leading the race because of his positions, have now jumped to Kerry who is leading, because the media is telling them he's more electable. (steering)

Clark is suffering some of the same, but he is the unfortunate intersection between two campaign battles, the battle for the South, and the battle for the military rights.

So it is incorrect to say we are accusing everyone of reacting to the corporate chattel fodder media brainwashing, only those who've switched to Kerry, buying into their promotion of perceived electability promises, which can't be in any way substantiated, only guesses at who can do the job. We believe it is Dean.

Unless you know the media's purpose is not to inform, but to direct, you will be directed.

[woofless]

30. Why use the plural "they"?

There is only one person responsible and that is the good doctor himself.He simply did not connect with the people, and no matter what you think, this primary process proves it. People are voting, yes voting for someone other than your preferred candidate. Live long enough and you will get used to it. (You'll never like it though, believe me.)

[moondust]

31. And what is your guy planning to do?

A day or two ago I saw Howard Dean on TV making it absolutely clear beyond the shadow of a doubt that he, Howard Dean, is going to do whatever he can to help the eventual Democratic candidate--whoever that may be--win the election in November.

Unlike you, Howard is not giving up.

[wyldwolf]

33. We hate to lose you, Bruce

But just in case you still feel the need to be involved, here is a great source for third parties:

http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm

[Zech Marquis]

34. so no Dean means 4 more years of *?

I do recall Dean saying that he most important goal is to send * back to Crawford, Texas. And yes, Dean has given the other candidates the backbone they were missing earlier on.

Your fellow Democrats voted, not the DLC or anyone else. I suppose when I vote tomorrow here in VA that I would be a DLC member? Wrong, because I have no ties with them. These votes and primary results are saying one thing--we want a Democrat back in Al Gore's house. I'm sorry it won;'t be Dean, but I surely hope you don;t want 4 more years of *!

[Guaranteed]

37. Statistically? Yes.

We're going to lose a couple million votes, probably, if Dean doesn't get the nomination, simply because some people won't show up.

Kerry's only hope is to make it up in the scrum. Unfortunately, he's a Massachusetts liberal who's voted with Bush on most of the important issues over the past few years, and thus has nothing to say.

Good luck!

[Zech Marquis]

41. so it's Dean or nothing for you?

I dn't want * in office for 4 more SECONDS, and yet you're just saying it's al over if Dean's not the nominee?

Sorry, I find that kind of attitude defeat-ridden.

[arwalden]

47. Hmmm... Two Million "No-Show" Voters Without Dean... Or Three-Million

Or Three-Million additional centrist, independent, undecided swing-votes who choose BUSH because Dean didn't appeal to the middle. Hmmm. Difficult choice.

(Elections are won from the middle, you know.)

-- Allen

[dansolo]

54. But that's Kerry's strategy

Screw over the left in order to appeal to the middle. It's his own damn fault if they don't show up to vote. If we have to rely on the Bush boogeyman to get out the vote, then the Democratic party is in really sad shape.

[arwalden]

63. Purists Are Seldom Happy With Even The Most Modest Gains

It's all-or-nothing. Right now!

I do so very much admire the passion and commitment of those folks. But I continue to be confused at how spoiled and immature and unrealistic many of them tend to be.

The "my way or no way" approach is a bit counterproductive to real world politics. If they are going to play then they need to make the best strategic moves possible. Sometimes that means making a sacrifice or two or more.

Or... for some folks... sometimes it means NOT making the sacrifice. BUT but that also means not whining about the consequences that come along with not making a sacrifice... and NOT playing the game wisely... and NOT making the most sophisticated moves.

I think that pride... foolish pride... also prevents some folks from making the wisest decisions and the most politically astute decisions. In the quest for perfection, they lose sight of the small victories that could amount to a great deal.

The utopia these folks hope for will never come to be... but their unwillingness to "settle" for even the smallest improvements in the situation will guarantee that things will only get worse.

-- Allen

[Sotarr2004]

106. Reality Check: it's the only winning strategy. . .

. . .Face it, the Right will vote for Bush even if he turned out to be a tentacled Alien wearing a Bush Mask (obligatory Simpsons reference). Likewise, the Left will have no real choice but to get behind Kerry.

The fight, as always, is for the Center.

Reality: deal with it. . .

[NewYorkerfromMass]

73. I'm not sure where you got your numbers

but they sound about right and is essentially the unvarnished truth.
Kerry is taking more support away from Bush's center daily. Victory is looking certain.

[liberalmike27]

89. Looking

Are you "looking" at the same thing that had Dean a certain winner a month or so ago? My point the whole time is, they can make it "look" any way they want, as long as you are buying.
You should focus on what the candidates are saying, are they specific, and who do you agree with more. After that, you weigh out the sincerity, which in my view, is why my choice was Dean overwhelmingly. He said what he thought, and many of them weren't standard Democratic Party lines, as was his position on Gun control.

What you are looking at is the mighty and powerful Oz, but instead of a old eccentric putz behind the curtain, there looms GE, AOL Time Warner, Viacom, and many other huge corporations. Be very afraid, and remember, the corporate media (just about all of it) is not your friend. What they suggest, are things that are good for them, not things that are good for "you". You will be Dean's special interest, however. Get it.

[Sotarr2004]

110. Not to be a bucket of cold water. . .

. . . but the poll that counts is 8 months away. If (presumably) Kerry-Edwards or whoever is up 10 points on Halloween, THEN victory is certain.

Until then, the only safe course is to keep plugging away at 110% power. . . .

[BL_Zebub]

136. Huh? You think Kerry appeals to the "middle" more than Dean??

Explain how that can be possible. Dean governed as a fiscal conservative with NRA ratings. Kerry's typecast as a "Massachussetts Liberal". Who sounds more likely to get crossover votes from sane Republicans?

[zoeyfong]

143. Elections are *not* won from the middle in 50-50 split nation.

Look, not only is kerry going to lose votes on the left, he is not going to pick up anyone in the middle; there is no group of people who simultaneously want a guy who is pro-war but is also a massachusettes liberal. There is no such demographic group! In a 50-50 nation, a party *must* turn out its base before it can even think about getting votes in the middle.

[Sotarr2004]

105. Yes, but Bush has the same problem. . .

. . .the Hard Right and the Neocons, as well as the Evangelicals are p.o.ed at Dubya because of spending, the Immigrant Amnesty Proposal, etc.

It's likely to be a wash for BOTH sides this year: the question is, which will get the better chunk of their base vote out. . .

[He loved Big Brother]

38. Thank you batman

CNN just had a man say Kerry's new strategy was to stop focusing on the differences between himself and his rivals, and start pointing out the difference between him and Bush.

Um...didn't you have umpteen opportunities to do this already in the last 3 years??

GREAT "new" strategy Kerry! I could have sworn I've seen this one somewhere before!

Though unfortunately not before the IWR
vote, the PATRIOT ACT vote, the Medicare bill, etc.

[arwalden]

43. That Message Is Very Selfish

The best candidate for whom? For what political climate? For what reality?

(This reminds me of the folks who whine about how the US should pull out of the United Nations because it's not perfectly in step with what the US believes.)

He may be your best candidate, he may be my best candidate... but clearly he's not getting the votes that the best candidate would be getting if he were the actual best candidate for these times.

Being idealistic is fine... being realistic wins elections. We've got no control at all right now. The republicans control almost everything... I'd rather kiss some corporate ass and get back IN the game than to be principled and idealistic and continue to be left OUT of the game completely.

It will be awfully cold out there on that limb you've climbed onto. It may not be lonely for you, but it will definitely be isolated and detached from any meaningful participation and influence.

-- Allen

(Just some random thoughs, nothing personal against you. I realize you're frustrated. -- BTW: Not voting makes the other guy's vote count twice as much... it's been said.)

[Robb]

45. Well put.

Who are you, and what did you do with arwalden?!? :silly:

Kidding, of course. :) This part bears repeating:

I'd rather kiss some corporate ass and get back IN the game than to be principled and idealistic and continue to be left OUT of the game completely.

[Stuckinthebush]

55. Rationality with my morning cup of coffee!

How refreshing, Allen!

Thanks.

[The Magistrate]

107. Well Said, Mr. Arwalden!

Well said indeed, my friend!

This is a game for grown-ups; for people who can defer present gratification for future gain, and who prefer the material to the emotional.

"You'll feel just as bad tomorrow; couldn't we cheer you up then?"

[Eloriel]

121. Allen -- I'm very surprised by your posts to this thread

He may be your best candidate, he may be my best candidate... but clearly he's not getting the votes that the best candidate would be getting...

Have you been paying any attention at all to why that is the case?

If not, I don't think you're in any position to castigate us. It's really the same thing as Election 2000 (minus the Supreme Court) for me: it's not that Gore lost, but HOW he "lost" that upset us, right? Same with Dean, tho he hasn't "lost" yet.

You can tell yourself that Dean just doesn't have the stuff to get enough votes (so far) to win the nomination, but I can assure you that you're missing a lot of the puzzle, the part that's gone mostly under the radar, and only have a partial view of reality.

I posted in another thread that as a result of all the dirty tricks, dirty politics and shenanigans that have so far gone on, the legitimacy of this primary process has forever tainted a Kerry nomination, if that's what should occur, and that for me a resultant Kerry administration would be no more legitimate than Bush's.

But ANYthing to beat Bush, right? (Even assuming Kerry has what it takes to actually beat Bush, which is highly questionable in my mind.)

If, as Gov. Dean discovered early on, some of us were as angry with the Democratic Party as with Bush early on, we're even angrier now. The Party Establishment has done everything it can to manipulate things so they could end up choosing a candidate acceptable to THEM. In that regard, they are no better than the Republicans in 2000.

[arwalden]

127. Sorry. I Don't See It As You Do.

I guess my 'partial view of reality' will have to suffice.

Yes... "ANYthing to beat Bush". Your words appear to be dripping of sarcasm, and I'm guessing you were implying that it's something I ought to be ashamed of. --- But I'm NOT. (Oh, don't get me wrong I can appreciate the value of sarcasm and use it often to make my points as well... I just wanted to make certain I got your meaning correct.)

I stand by my opinion that if Dean cannot garner the votes he needs now, then he won't be able to get them later. I'm convinced that the biased media has given him a raw deal... and that voters are being influenced by the pundits and ridicule of Dean. But, despite how unfair it may be... it is a reality... and if the Dean supporters are so fickle that they choose to support someone else because of it, then the same thing will likely happen later on as well in the General Election.

If the unfair attacks and ridicule had not come now, they would have come later. I do find fault with fickle voters... but that's how it works. People change their minds, and folks have obviously changed their mind about Dean.

Perhaps it's not so much that he's losing his dedicated following, but that he's unable to gain (retain) the confidence of the undecided primary voters. I have a strong feeling that those same undecided primary voters (who choose someone other than Dean) could have also been just as easily pulled away from Dean if he ends up with the nomination.

Your closing admonitions about the "Party Establishment" seem to indicate that you've pretty much made up your mind about how awful the Democratic Party is. From what I can tell, if the Democratic Party is, as you say, "no better than the Republicans" then perhaps you're feeling as though the Democratic Party isn't the place for you. Maybe you feel it's time to leave. I don't know.

I don't know how to respond to that. You'll make the choices that are best for you. Stay or leave... vote or not... it's up to you.

Best of luck to you,
-- Allen

P.S. Maybe this is part of Dean's process. Nixon didn't win the presidency his first few times either. Maybe Dean's time will come later.

[JNelson6563]

146. ever hear the term "venting"?

Emotions are hot right now. It is no time to roll out your lofty judgements. Give it a rest for a few days.


Julie

[arwalden]

152. That Was Not "Venting", Julie. -- Ever hear the term "deliberate"?

That message was deliberate and thought-out. The message was clear and presented in an organized manner. Critical readers will be able to tell that it was no spur of the moment "vent".

>> It is no time to roll out your lofty judgements <<

Oh, good grief, Julie! Interesting choice of words there. I understand exactly what you're implying... but that's totally wrong. (Rolling out lofty judgments ... p-lease!)

But, ya know what, Julie. The scorn that anyone chooses to heap on me is unfair. I think my response was appropriate, measured, even-handed, and fair.

>> "Give it a rest for a few days." <<

A wise person will often lead by example, Julie. After all---as you say---emotions are hot right now. I cannot think of a better way to help set the tone (or change the tone). Can you?

-- Allen

[Township75]

44. You're not the only one.....

I'm not saying I won't vote for Kerry, but the desire to vote 3rd or not vote is becoming overwhelming.

Dean inspired me, Kerry repulses me.

[MaddogTerp]

112. Yeah, me too.

Even if Howie doesn't go 3rd party on his own, I'm much more inclined to write him in than I am to vote Kerry (aka Bushie Lite)

[Lexingtonian]

46. times change

This is not the 1970s anymore, batman. The Democratic Party was forced out of its role attained under FDR as champion of the working person and do the hard work of social equality for thirty years. Now that that is approaching some degree of completion, as shown by a return to electoral majority, and a return of focus on economic equality is possible - that's the moment when you decide to give up.

The historical misunderstanding the Nader campaigns were based on is the same one the Dean campaign is based on. Both pretend that it's all about wealth and immorality of elites. Neither admits that it's the injustices that the masses accept or are divided over that are the root of both problems- the power base that enables.

You have to decide for yourself whether it's the elites or the prejudices of the masses that are the true source of the widespread corruptions of the public life. It's easy to pretend that it's a few bad apples and not the barrel itself. I think we all know perfectly well how deep the rot really goes, yet many cling to some notion of a purity easily- cheaply- attained merely by desire and vocal complaint.

It was never going to be just that easy. The price of progress is suffering, and willfulness tends to be more of an obstacle after a time than a help.

Btw, Dean's campaign implosion after the loss in New Hampshire is where the close observers started measuring out the coffin.

[Atlant]

50. Don't stay home. Cast a vote, but not for the Ds.

Don't stay home. The Democrats don't mind an ever-more apathetic
electorate, and that's the message they'd get if you stay simply
stayed home on election day.

So turn out, but vote for a third party. Or write someone in.
Make sure you count in the turnout! It's when millions of
us whom the Democrats could either count on to automatically
vote "D" (or to at least just stay home) start voting for some
other party that the Democrats *MIGHT* finally sit up and take
notice!

Atlant

[libview]

51. Dean is finished, he really never got started.

It's obvious that his stratergy from the beginning was faulted, while it attracted some of the more leftest democrats, he could not hold his own with the general Democrat voting population. Maybe he will get a job at one of those corporations he gave tax breaks to in Vermont while he was governor.

[DianeK]

52. i have made the decision to

vote for dean as a write in, if necessary...more and more i am understanding that i can not in good conscience cast my vote for kerry or any other candidate. kerry has no credibility when it comes to the issues that i care about such as NCLB, the war in iraq, he will become the 'yeah, but' candidate...'yeah' i voted for it, 'but' i thought i could trust george bush to do the right thing..i can just imagine what a debate between the two would be. if i knew that bush couldn't be trusted how come kerry didn't know that?! i know we are being set up for another 4 years of gwb and it doesn't much matter who you vote for

[ozone_man]

56. I'll write in Dean or vote 3rd party.

You have to make your vote count for something. The DNC doesn't care if you don't vote, but they will pay attention to the origination of a 3rd party.

[arwalden]

64. "Let Me Know How That Works Out For Ya!"

-- Dr. Phil :-)








(Obviously I'm not really Dr. Phil... I'm just quoting him.)

[liberalmike27]

59. I have to admit

I've been having some of the same feelings. Kind of disturbing how most people like Dean the best, but vote for who the media is recommending, Kerry, and are unaware that they are just a giant corporation, recommending the most inside, insider in the race, and like mindless, sycophantic sheep, democrats follow behind.

I'd like to see some folks get their balls back, and vote for who they like, and not for who the media chooses for you.

That being said, Dean is still second, and I have to go mail 20 letters that I've written to Wisconsin. I hope Dean stays until the end, if for nothing else to continue to show the media for the farce it has been in this election.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. It's an exaggeration to say that "most" people like Dean

NONE of my relatives here in Minnesota like Dean. They think he's the "yuppie candidate." His 3rd-place showing in Iowa may have come from an inability to connect with Midwestern voters.

In contrast, they either like or have never heard of Kucinich, but they think he "can't win."

They like Kerry because they think that he's dignified and experienced.

[CWebster]

74. As I recall, I challenged your relatives' charges that

Dean was an unelectable yuppie--especially in contrast to Kerry's elite insider status. Yet you keep on championing your Minnesota relatives as if their, apparently easily suggestible, opinions are some sort of accurate measure of the truth according to the common man. Dean's early forays into Iowa reflected his growing consciousness of the anger and resent towards Democratic party spinelessness -notably Kerry. Yet that has been spun into Dean's "too angry", while Kerry is "dignified".

So much for the populist heartland, sounds like they grovel for the aristocrats.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. I can't help what they said

and they seem to be more typical of the average non-politlcal junkie voter than you might like, judging from the results so far. And as I mentioned before they didn't think he was "too angry." They thought he was "cocky" and too "yuppie" for their tastes.

You have to deal with the voters as they are, not as you wish they would be, and if they aren't as you wish they would be, you have to educate them, not insult them, as Dean did when he criticized the Iowa caucus system.

[Sotarr2004]

79. That would require. . . .

. . .people to actually THINK. And ACT.

Here, in America ?? Get real. What were most people watching last night ? The utter irrelevancy that is the Grammy Awards.

I'll borrow a word from the Freepers: there are way too many sheeple out there who, for whatever reason, REFUSE to think, much less act.

Besides, Survivor is on, and the latest celebrity gossip is EVER so much more interesting. . .

[Edwards4President]

81. So, anyone who votes for someone other than Dean is being conned

by the media?

[Eloriel]

122. No. But if the media isn't at all important or a factor,

why isn't your guy doing better?

[mmonk]

61. holy no votes batman!

Hang in there. It's not over yet.

[Endangered Specie]

65. Enough with the DLC conspiracy theories already...

IT was Deans race to lose, and the voters voted for Kerry.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. Sorry, but this really sounds like

"If my candidate doesn't get the nomination, I"m going to hold my breath until I turn blue, and the country can go to hell for all I care, so there!"

Even though I have never liked Dean on a gut level, I understand your feelings to some extent. I voted for Nader in 1996, but that was only because Clinton was polling high and besides, even if Bob Dole pulled off an upset, he's much closer to being a reasonable human being than Bushboy is, so I felt that there was little risk. That would have been a GOOD time to vote 3rd party.

This year is not.

I'm a Kucinich backer--talk about being dissed by the media, or rather, totally ignored! Yet I will support whoever gets the nomination, as DK will, because the first step is giving Bushboy a one-way ticket back to Crawfordville. I would like to see someone with DK's combination of vision, courage, energy, and underlying pragmatism in the White House, and I will caucus for him on March 2, but at this point, I'll take what I can get if I have to settle.

But the job does not end with getting any old Dem into the White House. If Dean is the only Dem you will consider supporting for president, you can still help the country by voting and working for progressive Dems for all the other offices.

[blm]

71. You only like the most CORPORATIST/CENTRIST in the race, Howard Dean?

Too bad you've decided you can't accept a real liberal running for a president.

Too bad you can't support men who have sided with environmentalists and labor OVER the big corporations throughout their careers.

[Eloriel]

129. I like the authentic and honest one with his own backbone

[Nicholas_J]

130. Does he have one?

The most amazing part about Deans supposed backbone. is that there is much evidence that Deans career ha been one of much talk and little action, when it comes to actually doing things:

Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
Some Vermonters Give Their Views

I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

Perspective on Dean from a Vermont Sierra Club Activist: negative

He was always there with the lip service as long as there was actually
nothing on the table. He has developed a reputation for saying what his audience wants to hear, then doing whatever suits him later.


http://www.thomasleavitt.org/personal/blog/index.php?p=311&c=1

[edzontar]

72. I could vote for Clark, Kucinich, or Sharpton

As long as an anti-war or grass-roots candidate is out there, that candidate will get my vote over the War twins, Kerry and Edwards.

That said, in the general, i will still pull the lever for Kerry or JE, despite my disgust at having to do so,


I am NOT ABB, however--I consider that line to be self-serving and meaningless.


After this election, I hope that a thrid party or inter-Dem Party reform movement can get going in earnest.

I say, make them EARN our votes. The hard way.

[Love Bug]

76. Words to live by:

As through life you wander
And whatever be your goal
Keep your eye upon the donut
And not upon the hole

Do you honestly think Dean would want you to stay home if he doesn't get the nomination?

[NicRic]

77. All Dems must unite !

Kerry was not my #1 choice ! Perhaps not even my second choice , however Iam not going to lose site of the most important thing in this upcoming election . Thats getting bush out of office in the 04 election. The chances of beating bush are looking better if you read the polls etc, however if we get to confident about winning ,we can get burned big time. Lets not forget the mountain of $ bush already has for his "re-election", the still prevelant media bias, the dieboold voting machines, the unity of the repugs , and for the most part their blind loyaty to this worst of the worst Presidents ! If there was ever a time for Dems to vote along party lines this is the time. After what the repugs have done to us since the election of the last great President Clinton, nothing would taste sweeter then sending bush back to Crawford Tx. A one term failure son of a one term failure of a President. They abuse our rightfully two time elected president , then they steal the election out from under his V.P. ! Then to add insult to injury, this installed pResident ,walks around ignoring even some in his own party ,with the arrogance of a elected politician who had a mandate from the people, when the opposite is the truth! Iam not going to apoligize for insisting that any true Dem ,step up to the plate and vote for whomever this party picks to go up against this comander in theif. Not only was an election stolen ,so was the soul of our country ,as great Dem Presidents who are no longer with us turn in their graves ,we the living oue it to them and to our country to stop this White House , by voting him out ,making sure they dont steal another one ,and to answer every lie with the truth ! Anyone except bush is my frist slogan for the 2004 election !

[progressivebydesign]

85. From another Dean supporter...

I know how you feel. I really do. I have supported Howard Dean for almost a year... I have volunteered, donated, spread the word about him. I disappointed as hell about what has happened to him.

I don't think it's 100% outside influences that hurt him. There is no candidate that is perfect. I do know that the stealth ads comparing him to OBL in Iowa hurt him, as did the other attack ads. The media perpetuating the scream speech lie hurt him, too.

Kerry is doing very well, and I can't fault him or his supporters for that. I can't yell conspiracy whenever I see things not going Dean's way. It would make me crazy!

I do mourn the current state of politics. I mourn the loss of the days when you could have a kick-ass, out of nowhere candidate take things by storm. A time when the Democratic Party would SEE what candidate the voters connected with, the one that represented the true nature of the Party, and then throw their support toward that person WHEN they got the nod. Now, it seems that even the DNC and the DLC has a horse in the race... and that's a disservice to all Democrats. I saw this primary race as something fundamentally different than any other race. This one was a battle for the Democratic Party's utter soul. Dean could not defend against the onslaught from inside the Democratic Party, and the GOP, and the media. I can't say that a stronger candidate could have overcome that. Because Dean was an unknown, he was more vulnerable, he had no brand loyalty built up. He had name recogntion, but most of it was negative because of attack ads, and media distortions.

As sad, and as pissed as I am, I am STILL voting for the Democratic nominee, regardless of who that is. Because... I would expect no less of my fellow Democrats should Howard Dean get the nomination. If the fortune's turned, and Dean got the nod.. would you be upset if all of the supporters of the other candidates did not vote for Howard? And allowed Bush to stay in office, and defeat your candidate? How would that feel.. the next day? And.. how would YOU feel the day after the election if you helped keep Bush in office by staying home. Turn your energy, then, if you're burned out on the primary, toward helping us regain the House or Senate... A democratic president with those GOP scoundrels controlling everything else will be intolerable.

It's easy to feel bad right now... but we have to press on. We have to. Bush is more than a bad president, he's a global disaster.

[MrPeepers]

86. Nobody took Dean down but himself.

Whether the DLC was involved or not, nobody can force a decline as rapid and substantial as Dean's. If the DLC hated him so much, and they had the power to take him down, why would they have waited so long to do it? Dean screwed up. The Campaign was far from the organized, massive powerhouse it was reported to be. It was hollow, and it fell apart. The DLC didn't do that, Dean and his campaign staff did.

Peepers

[Eloriel]

125. The campaign, and Dean, aren't perfect or invincible

But you blithely (and self-servingly in regards to your candidate?) ignore the reality of what actually happened.

I'm not going to go through the whole litany of dirty tricks and dirty politics and backroom deals (I'm wondering at this point just how many people Kerry has promised the VP slot to -- that should be fun to watch!), savage media pile-on, and political machine machinations, but I will say that it wasn't the DLC -- it was people within the DNC, plus the GOP (no, not in concert in some conspiracy, just that they were piling on too), plus the media pile-on.

Let's just see how well kerry fares when he is finally subjected to even a small percentage of what Dean endured from the media. I saw Campbell Brown tell Chris Matthews that "the White House has a file this thick on John Kerry. They're just wondering when to release it. They want to make sure he's the nominee."

Kerry's time will come, IF he is the nominee.

[Ficus]

87. why so mad at the voters

who just haven't picked your candidate. It's politics. People vote, and choose. Sorry your candidate didn't catch on. But the people have been voting, and clearly, they don't want Dr. Dean as the nominee.

[w4rma]

91. We are both prepared to ask other Dems to support Dean in the general

IMHO, we should also be prepared to support the nominee if that nominee isn't Dean (as it appears likely to be the case).

[batman]

93. I can promote a candidate that wants the most crucial piece of this

vision. I want campaign finance reform so we can enjoy a true democracy. Until another viable candidate says he will do that, I cant promise anything this November. Sorry

[blm]

94. Read the records. Kerry advocated public financing of campaigns since 85.

He also sent up legislation for public financing of campaigns he authored with Paul Wellstone. The Senate ignored it.

The bully pulpit of the presidency will give Kerry the leverage to FINALLY push it through.

[w4rma]

97. blm, you are not helping, IMHO. (n/t)

[ozone_man]

113. Kerry who lends $6M of his own money

should not be talking about campaign finance reform. That's one of the reasons I won't be voting for him, because I believe in Democracy. He won't get a penny from me, nope. The first and possibly the last time I have contributed to a political campaign is for Dean.

[w4rma]

96. Others have qualms with your choice just like you have qualms with their's

IMHO, you must be able to do what you are asking them to do, which is to vote for and support a candidate whom was not their first choice in the Democratic primary.

[lifelong_Dem]

95. If the corporations love Kerry so much...

...then why did they give him so little money that he had to MORTAGE his HOUSE in order to keep his campaign solvent?

I suppose I should know better than to ask this question - I never get an answer from the Naderite crybabies around here, and I don't expect I will this time either.

[w4rma]

99. Soft money is illegal. (n/t)

[lifelong_Dem]

100. So?

Those same corporations have managed to flood Bush*'s campaign with tens of millions of dollars. Why didn't they do the same for Kerry, if he's their guy?

[w4rma]

102. Because Bush is their guy no matter who the Democratic Party picks. (n/t)

[arwalden]

103. My Energies Are Better Spent Getting Ten Centrists To Take Your Place...

rather than spending time and effort in a futile attempt to get you to change your mind. Sorry to see you leave, but do what you think is best for you.

-- Allen

[zoeyfong]

144. How many 'centrists' want a guy who is pro-war, but also a Mass liberal?

There is no such demographic group.

[arwalden]

153. I Don't Know What This Message Is Supposed To Mean...

I'm sure I'm not the only person who fails to comprehend it either.

-- Allen

[TexasSissy]

108. I understand how you feel. But Dean, and only Dean, is the one

responsible for his downfall. He served a good purpose to the party, and it's a shame in a way, and lots will be written in the future about exactly what went wrong for him.

But there's no escaping the fact that at many turns, Dean did or said the wrong thing, leading many voters to conclude he wasn't presidential material at this time.

My personal feeling is that Dean's advance in the polls and the Gore endorsement led Dean into over-ego territory. I DO think the Gore endorsement was a huge mistake and backfired for Dean (both the endorsement and Gore's choice of words when he gave the endorsement, more or less telling the voters to drop everyone else and rally behind Gore's choice---pretty nervy). Dean actively and tenaciously sought endorsements from Washington insiders while speaking irreverently of Washington insiders, calling them cockroaches at one point. It didn't jive. Whatever else good Dean had to say was lost amid his pursuit of insider endorsements and negative comments about others in his own party.

It was the voters who decided he would not be the nominee. No one else. Dean has some great ideas and positions, but it's been hard to focus on them, since he and many of his supporters seem to have spent a lot of time on endorsements and negativity about the party and others in the party.

Still, if it were close Dean could blame others. And others may have had some impact. But Dean lost big in the first two nomination states, and Kerry has cont'd to cream all the others. Kerry has such a wide lead that it's hard to put most of the blame of Dean losing or Clark losing or Edwards losing on anything but the candidates themselves.

Clark is my candidate of choice. I think he'd make the best President for a host of reasons. But for reasons that all are too obvious, Clark will lose to Kerry. The media at first ignored Clark, then beat up on him mercilessly. But in the end, Clark lost because of, well, Clark himself (and his campaign management to a lesser degree).

This has been a good and educational process. We want the candidate who has been able to withstand the trials and tribulations of the nomination process, since that presumably will mean they will withstand the GE more easily than the other candidates.

The upshot is....if the Dems themselves don't want to vote for Clark or Edwards or Dean....then we know for sure that the independents we're hoping to get won't vote for them, either. Will they vote for Kerry? Who knows? But at least most Dems are voting for him, and that's a start.

[liberalitch]

111. falling on your own sword....

are you?
What happened to the belief that who we vote AGAINST is as important as who we vote for?

[dolstein]

114. Perhaps you should call yourself a "Dean Democrat"

to distinguish yourself from the rest of us who actually intend on voting for the Democratic party's nominee in November.

I held my nose and voted for Michael Dukakis in 1988. I'm sure I can manage to do the same if John Kerry is our nominee. The thought that the Democratic Party is one against lurching to the political wasteland known as the "left fringe" is deeply disturbing to me. However, the thought of another four years of George Bush is even more disturbing.

[MaddogTerp]

116. I've got to agree with that

if Dean goes down (other than to Kuchinich), that can only mean the party has sold out.

[kurtyboy]

118. Really? Even if Howard Dean asks....

you personally to vote for the Dem nominee? How then would you vote?

Because if Dean doesn't get the nomination, he WILL ask all of his supporters to help the Dem nominee. And I believe hi might feel a touch betrayed by those who refuse...

On the other hand, I understand your frustration. I hope that even if you cannot support the presidential campaign, you can still help out with a congressional or gubernatorial or local Dem candidate. Every bit helps, my friend. Good luck with your decision.

[Eloriel]

120. Maine "reesults" aren't in yet -- which alone is interesting

The campaign is looking into some irregularities in at least 2 states, including Maine.

I'm with ya. I've never seen, nor could I have imagined, the kind of shit that's gone on in this campaign against Dean. It has appalled me, and I'm definitely suffering from "shock and awe." And all along I thought it was the GOP who were masters of the dirty stuff when it came to elections. How wrong I was.

For me it has become EXACTLY like FL 2000 in that once the recount began, within 2 or 3 days I realized that as much as I wanted Gore to win, what I wanted MOST of all was for the process to be legitimate, for the man who really got the most votes to be the one elected. That's the way I feel now too -- I want Dean to win more than I ever wanted anything political in my life. But the legitimacy of the process is still the most important thing.

Unfortunately, it's too late for that. The innumerable illegitimate things that have gone on can't be fully undone, if any of them can be undone (and it's doubtful). Dean still may pull it out -- he hasn't quit yet, so there's still hope. And if he does, it will be some kind of miracle (and he's just the guy to do it, IMO).

But if he doesn't, there will forever be a real stink on whoever is the nominee. And should the nominee winthe general, he won't be any more "legitimate" in my eyes than George W. Bush, and that's saying a LOT.

And for those who are wondering what the hell I'm talking about -- there have been election "anomalies" in most if not all the states which have had primaries or caucuses so far. One first-hand report by a caucus partipant was posted here at DU and subsequently locked, because it was considered "rumor." So, there's obviously no point in posting any of the other details that have been surfacing, is there? Guess ya'll will have to learn about them, or not, somewhere else.

[mobuto]

124. Washington Insiders didn't defeat Dean - Actually the Opposite

Until Iowa, and even afterward, until New Hampshire, everybody in Washington expected Dean to be the nominee. That's why you saw so many endorsements for Dean from prominent Dems in December and early January - they make not have liked him so much, but they wanted to hop on the bandwagon of inevitability.

Dean lost because he failed to persuade a plurality of voters in Iowa and New Hampshire to support him. That's all. And if you can't do that, there isn't any DLC cabal that can screw you.

BTW, Dean is far from the most liberal candidate out there -- not more liberal than Kerry, and significantly less so than General Clark. And yet while Clark has had real problems with the media, nobody's talking about a grand conspiracy against either of the,.

[redqueen]

126. Sad

The Democratic party is spiraling the drain folks. Read it and weep.

This is only one person. One brave person. I wonder how many lurkers would tell us this same story. I wonder how many people who don't even get on the internet feel the same way.

Good going, DNC. Way to marginalize your own party.

[GalleryGod]

132. You Should've Seen the party in the Spring of '73:

In an absolute shambles,and not a McGovern "insurgent" in sight to help with New Jersey Gubernatorial Campaign. I feel MORE badly for "DianeK" some posts down- who gave Trippi's AD Firm $681.00.

So as a former State Young Dem President and an old Dem since 1972..
Adios Amigo!:smoke:

Scotty! Beam me out of this cesspool of whiners and miscreants!O8)

[PROGRESSIVE1]

134. I DO not like Dean but I promised my vote for him if he is our....

nominee.

Dean has a very conservative record as governor of Vermont.
Exclude the "Civil Unions" bill.
He cut Medicare/Medicaid spending to balance the budget,
an idea that he got from Newt Gingrich.

Howard Dean won't even show us his records. Why should I trust him
anymore I do Bush??? :mad:

This assault of Kerry is absurd.

For me it's Clark, Kerry, or Edwards before Dean

[littlejoe]

135. You haven't been a democrat very long, have you? n/t

[John_H]

137. Voters stopped Dean, like it or not. .

[goodhue]

138. who are they?

voters?

[mitchum]

139. BYE!

[PretzelWarrior]

141. fine. be a Bush enabler

just what we need. sensationalist Media fixated on personality along with corrupt politics and apathetic electorate to send Bush a "mandate". Just think how much he's screwed with us on a razor thin defeat pulled out at last second by the 5 evil ones in black robes including "Duck Hunt" scalia.

I don't like your attitude, but maybe you'll realize what's at stake by November and get your sh@!t together.

[batman]

142. Uhm, Mr Kerry is a Bush enabler. I trusted him to represent me, and he

chose not to.

[Speed8098]

147. I couldn't finish this thread

Some of the responses here sicken me. :puke:


The idea here is to GET RID OF BUSH*.

Someone said that we have 2 of the same running, so why vote.

Obviously someone who would put Kerry in the same basket as *, has no idea how Kerry has voted for the PAST 20 YEARS!

Please, people.

Go to the voting booth and pull the lever, touch the screen, or whichever way, just vote for the Dem nominee, even if you have to hold your nose.

4 more years of the chimp is intolerable.

[JCMach1]

148. Chin up... this is a REAGAN '76 situation

It may very well take more than one cycle to gain control of the party.

BUSH is the real danger to our Democracy... Don't even dream about staying home.

[LynneSin]

149. I'm a Dean supporter, but first and foremost I'm Anybody But Bush

Seriously, do you think I'm going to let the demise of Howard Dean prevent me from getting Bush out of the White House.

I'm ok with Kerry although I don't have the same enthusian for him like I did with Howard Dean. However I plan to turn my energies to "Get out the Vote" with groups like MoveOn and Emily's List.

WE need to revitalize the democratic party, but allowing Bush another 4 years in the White House is DANGEROUS. If Bush get's elected who knows what this guy will be capable of doing knowing that he's in his second term and won't have to cater to anyone but rich special interests and not the total voting population.

[onebigbadwulf]

151. I agree.

I'm going apolitical from now one if Kerry wins the nomination.

Just pointless.

[bhunt70]

154. It's only pointless if you make it that way.