Hopefully NOT the Last Word ...

[NanceGreggs]

Hopefully NOT the Last Word …
By Nancy Greggs

I am not the first DUer to write on this topic, and I certainly hope I won’t be the last. But this rant has been brewing for a while, and I am really PISSED-OFF – so I’m going to let it rip.

Over the past several weeks, there have been hundreds of good-news threads, e.g. “Dem So-and-So Pulls Ahead in Latest Poll”. You open the message, and see a long row of ‘way to go’, and ‘woo-hoo’, along with gleeful chatter about how things are looking better and better for election night.

And then, there it inevitably is, the “Yeah, too bad Diebold has already decided he’s not going to win” post.

When called out on these comments, the nay-saying poster always proffers one of two excuses.

“I was just trying to educate everyone about the problems that exist with electronic voting machines.” Well, there is only one situation in which that excuse is a valid one, and that’s if you just landed here from the planet Xeononicon and logged-on to DU for the first time. There isn’t a person on this website who isn’t aware of Diebold – along with all other forms of voter suppression. You’re not ‘educating’ anyone – and what’s worse, you know you’re not.

The second classic excuse is, “I’m just trying to brace everyone for the disappointment if we lose.” Again, you’re doing no such thing. If things don’t go our way on election night, there will be plenty of disappointment to go around – and we will deal with it then. To predict it ahead of time is an invitation for everyone to start thinking of it as inevitable.

Time and again, I wonder what possible purpose there is in being deliberately discouraging, or spreading pessimism around like you’re doing us all an invaluable service.

Don’t get me wrong. I am not talking about threads alerting people to real problems, like a last name being cut off a ballot. That serves to spread the word so that something constructive can be done, like making people voting in that race aware of the glitch now so they won’t be confused – and think they cannot vote for that candidate – on election night.

I’m talking about the need some people feel to be as disheartening as possible, and can only wonder at their motives. There are many people here who have been making phone calls, knocking on doors, doing all they can to get the vote out. Their enthusiasm is contagious. But so is the negativity we are all being met with on a continuing basis.

Imagine your words actually discouraging someone here from making those phone calls, from knocking on those doors – maybe from voting at all, because that one-too-many post about Diebold has finally convinced them that their efforts are futile. Happy now?

Along with the aforementioned, what really sticks in my personal craw is the constant harping about the ‘fix is in’. If you honestly believe that, why are you even bothering to post here – or on any other political site? Honestly, if it’s all a done deal, why the need to pay any attention to it whatsoever – other than to distract those who believe otherwise from staying focused on the work that still needs to be done?

I find this attitude especially galling when the ‘fix is in’ conclusion – always delivered with that this-is-incontrovertible-evidence tone – is based on the spring in Rove’s step, or the smirk on Bush’s face. He has that same smirk on his face when he talks about victory in Iraq – I guess that means this war is a slam-dunk, right?

As for Rove or any other Republican predicting a win for their party, exactly what were you expecting? Do you think they should display an attitude of utter defeat, thereby discouraging their supporters from bothering to come out and vote? No, they don’t do that. They don’t discourage their fellow party members two weeks before an election – and maybe there’s something to be learned from that.

Personally, I am very optimistic about this election. Not just Democrats, but the American people, have had enough of Republican mismanagement of our government, and we are poised to change that on November 7th.

It is one thing to hold a different opinion, to believe that change is impossible. It is quite another to try to dissuade your fellow Democrats from working to make that change a reality.

‘Nuff said. Rant off.

[babylonsister]

1. It had to be said, and I'm really glad you did.

:pals:

[NanceGreggs]

5. As always, right back at ya, Sister!

(And by the way, your photo in the Photography Contest - bird flying over field - was ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!!!)

:hug:

[babylonsister]

12. Aww, you are so sweet!

That 'field' is actually marshlands that butt up against the Great South Bay on LI.
Thanks!

[NanceGreggs]

17. Not being sweet ...

... just appreciative of your talent.

Although I was born in NYC, I actually grew up on Long Island. So I know Great South Bay very well -- (should have recognized that blade of grass, third from the left, LOL)!

Absolutely stunning photograph ...

[knowbody0]

2. nice rant

but we better have a plan b for election theft, if the theorists are right, we need to be the nemisis force against it.

[NanceGreggs]

6. Absolutely!

And I've been encouraged by the threads that have been outlining those plans, and exchanging ideas on what to do in that event -- because they are CONSTRUCTIVE, not give-up-and-go-home.

[Atman]

13. Nancy, who has said "give up and go home"

I'm probably one of the people your rant was directed at. I posted my rant this week, with an accompanying cartoon. It received one of the highest traffic counts I've had in months, but not one single rec or comment from anybody, except one guy who thought he didn't get it, but actually did. But nowhere in my rant did I once tell anyone to give up. To the contrary.

I haven't read any threads wherein anyone actually said we should give up and go home. Sure, some DUers are despondent, but quite frankly, they have a right to be. They're probably the realists in the crowd who never went out for the cheerleading squad. We're watching it all unfold before our eyes, just like last time. Suddenly, all the close races are closing to within the MOE. Every media outlet is running stories 24/7 about the horrors which will occur under a Pelosi House. After YEARS of screaming at the top of our lungs, all of a sudden e-voting nightmares are the stuff of mainstream news, with the clear warning that the election will be chaos and we won't know who won half the races for days or even weeks.

And soon, just a couple of days before the election, Saddam Hussein will be sentenced to death and the Cabal News Networks will switch to constant day and night coverage of his childhood, his favorite ice cream, boxers or briefs, how he supported the terrorists who would have KILLED US ALL if not for the GOP.

It's happening now, Nancy, exactly as it did in 04 and 00. Same M.O.

It's good to be happy and hopeful and optimistic. But I think we're all just scared shitless about what happens when they finalize the theft of democracy...and we all just sit here reading "My Pet Goat."




Or will we act?

.

[JeffR]

23. Atman, I wouldn't put you in the group being railed at, personally

But there have been lots of posts (not original threads, but comments made thereon) which essentially say "Game over. Why bother?"

That kind of attitude is toxic, but no-one who reads your posts could rationally level that charge at you.

My opinion, anyway.

[NanceGreggs]

24. Give up and go home can be said in many ways ...

What does it say to you when you read "the fix is already in", or, "we haven't got a prayer, thanks to Diebold"? What it says to me is: "Your plane took off two hours ago, but don't let me discourage you from rushing to the airport in hopes of still catching it."

The Irish have a very wise saying: "Don't borrow trouble." In other words, focus on dealing with what is actually happening, instead of being distracted by what might happen -- or, more importantly, what might NOT happen.

Your comments about the sentencing of Hussein are a case in point. You have already decided how the MSM will deal with the story, and what impact it will have on voters. It hasn't even happened yet, and yet you've already decided exactly how it's going to play out.

Everyone talking about the nightmare of a house under Pelosi, the horrors of the Dems in power -- the public have been hearing this rhetoric for years now -- and despite that, the Dems are still preferred by a wide margin over the Republicans.

It's not the same country it was in 2004 -- and we've got the mounting casualties in Iraq, the escalating deficit, the newly-surfaced GOP scandals to prove it.

Should we worry about Diebold, dirty tactics, smear campaigns? You betcha.

But there's a difference between saying, "This is going to be a tough game, but we can win it," and saying, "The cards are stacked against us again, just like they always are."

Funny personal quirk: I prefer to bury the dead AFTER they've passed on, and not while they're very much alive and kicking, and looking healthier than ever.

[Atman]

26. We're seeing the same things from different angles

The Irish have a very wise saying: "Don't borrow trouble." In other words, focus on dealing with what is actually happening, instead of being distracted by what might happen -- or, more importantly, what might NOT happen.

Well, I'm Irish. And "focusing on what is happening" is exactly what I'm doing, and that's why I'm clanging the warning bells. What is happening, NOW, is exactly what happened to us before, unfolding in the same way.

Your comments about the sentencing of Hussein are a case in point. You have already decided how the MSM will deal with the story, and what impact it will have on voters. It hasn't even happened yet, and yet you've already decided exactly how it's going to play out.

The sun hasn't come up yet, but tomorrow I know it will. It happens the same way every time. I don't expect the media to ignore the sentencing of the man about whom this entire war was purportedly about (at least according to the second or third explanation from the Bush regime). Remember the largest protest march on DC since Viet Nam? It wasn't covered because a kitten fell into a well or something, and the cable news channels said they couldn't carry two important stories at once. You honestly think reports of the death sentence of the evil doer who gassed his own people will be sandwiched between the reports of the democrat's strong gains and the next unfolding GOP scandal? I'm skeptical.

The different angle we're coming from is this: You made valid points about the GOP's feelings about Pelosi and the growing awareness of the voters. But I'm more focused on how they can use these issues not necessarily to help carry out the theft itself, rather, as blast-fax talking points every shill will be using the next day to help The Party explain how it won when only 30% of the public supports them. They're playing up all the scary stuff and the e-vote fraud because it helps them create a legitimizing story AFTER the deed is done. The stuff we're hearing now is all about setting up the rationale for an amazing comeback victory -- A big bump by the death sentence of Saddam brought out the "security" vote. The realization that uber liberal Nancy Pelosi would be speaker brought out the real conservative vote. Bush's change of stance on Iraq brought in the fence sitter vote.

It's not the same country it was in 2004...

No, but the country is being run by the EXACT same band of thugs, thieves and crooks. THAT is what concerns me.

But that doesn't mean "don't fight." It means fight 10x harder. And for real.

.

[NanceGreggs]

31. I hear ya ...

... and to some extent, we have probably been talking at cross-purposes. (Although I have to point out - because I'm a bitch - that the sun rising tomorrow and anything the MSM may or may not do, and the impact thereof, are not exactly on the same footing of predictability. Hussein's sentencing could, in these days and times, be knocked off the airwaves completely if Angelina and Brad call it quits on the same day).

"The country is being run by the EXACT same band of thugs, thieves and crooks." True enough, but that band has lost massive support from among their own insiders -- and it's pretty hard being the Godfather when your Capos have decided that maybe it's a better deal for them if you wind up sleeping with the fishes.

As someone posted on another thread a few days ago, "This administration is made up of powerful people. But there are OTHER powerful people who now want them out." I wouldn't discount that.

"That doesn't mean "don't fight." It means fight 10x harder. And for real."

That's what we all want to hear. Unfortunately, too many "we're all doomed" posts don't go there. And that was my point.

And BTW, I wasn't specifically talking about you when I started this tirade. I think you DO know the people I'm talking about - and for some of them, being a professional crepe-hanger has an agenda behind it.

[Atman]

33. Thanks for the reply...you make valid points.

BTW, if I haven't said it before, I love reading your stuff. I liked the op, too. I didn't think you were specifically talking about me, but I've taken some heat here for not waving my pom poms and cheering loud enough. It started a couple of weeks ago when the polls really begaan breaking for the dems. So many DUers seemed totally convinced the race was already over, that we'd won. And there is no bigger recipe for disaster this year than excess optimism with a dash of complacency.

I'll stir 'em my way, you stir 'em up your way, and hopefully between us we'll get 'em all stirred up and ready to cook us some elephant stew!

.

[NanceGreggs]

35. You know what goes really well with Elephant Stew?

A side order of crow, and Humble Pie!

:toast:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

The naysayers have been really getting under my skin lately. I know we can't count on winning all the elections; I know the Repubs fight dirty; I know there are problems with the voting machines; but I also know they are in a lot of trouble and that the national mood has changed (except for the dead-ender 25% or so). So where is all this gloom and doom coming from? Are some people so snakebit from the last election that they are afraid to hope? Or are we also dealing with a few people who are intentionally trying to discourage us? I don't know -- I do know that we have a lot to hope for and a lot of work to do, and that anybody who says we're DOOMED is full of crap.

[NanceGreggs]

8. I think a lot of people are snake-bit from the last ...

... stolen elections.

But the point is that if you don't go out and vote, don't do all you can, and instead actually discourage people from working towards victory, the Repubs don't need to bother with Diebold - they've got disheartened Dems doing their work for them.

I'm not about to give up - especially when we are this close!

[Atman]

21. It's insane to think dems could be more disheartened than the GOP

A few DU posts will NOT change the outcome of this election. The GOP is so distraught and disgusted, and will not be voting at all, that we don't really have to worry about them. IF IT'S A LEGITIMATE ELECTION.

NO ONE is discouraging people from working towards victory. I agree completely that it is vitally important to have a MASSIVE turnout. Not because I think it will stop the fraud and theft, but because if all the people who really can't stand the GOP actually vote against them, and they all go to work Wednesday and can't find a single person who voted GOP, maybe America will finally wake up and ask why reality isn't matching the news reports. THEN maybe we'll take some action.

[tavalon]

38. I'm one of the ones who is snake-bit

And I have a Cassandra complex so I'm always trying to make sure I get on the record with my dire predictions. Nonetheless, I realized most of what you said about 2-3 weeks ago and have been working like mad because I desperately want to be wrong or at least feel at peace that I've done all that I could. What I can't do is be optimistic in the way I was with Kerry. I just got off of the Digoxin that I ended up having to take after my heart was broken during the 2004 election - my body has this weird way of taking the poetic and bringing it straight to the visceral. I don't want to see how dashed hopes would manifest in my body, ya know?

[williesgirl]

4. Couldn't agree w/you more. I was down to $100 in ckbk and gave

$50 of that between the Webb campaign and that 3 for 1 matching offer recently. That was hard to do but I made the decision for the future of everyone of us and our country. I no sooner had made those donations than I came here and read how it was supposedly all for naught due to Diebold.

Fuck Diebold. Let's donate, GOTV, and VOTE. recommended

[NanceGreggs]

9. That's a remarkable sacrifice, williesgirl ...

... so thanks for contributing to Webb's WIN in November.

Your story illustrates just what I'm talking about. What if you had read those 'all for naught due to Diebold' posts before you'd made that donation? It might have changed your mind from doing so -- now multiply that by all of the people here who see those posts every day. It's MADDENING!!!

[Stinky The Clown]

7. I'm proud to be number 5 ... off to the Greatest Page with ya, Nancy!

You said very eloquently what I have said so many times I can't count them anymore ..... always to be met with some scolding 'Diebold' warning.

[NanceGreggs]

14. Thanks for the rec, H2S!!!

As I said, I hope I WON'T be the last to speak up about this. Maybe the doom-and-gloom crowd will get the hint and tone it down.

[badgerpup]

10. Thank you VERY much, Nance! K & R!!!

Those boots were made for kickin' ass, not just rantin'!

:patriot: :yourock: :applause:



:kick:

[ClassWarrior]

11. Nicely said. I offered a comment the other day that the only vote that's...

...sure not to count is the one you don't cast. One of these doomsday people chimed in and said, "That's a nice platitude, buuuuut..."

Sheesh. :eyes: Thanks for sayin' what I've been feelin'.

NGU.

[bleever]

29. How's Bryan doing?

:hi: bro!

Two freakin' weeks.

Let's hope there are some Eddie Haskells in the R party getting ready to pop up on TV saying, "I TOLD them to return to being real uniters, but they were sadly too used to being dividers, and I regret that, Chris/Joe/Tim/Larry/Oprah."

(Serious about how Bryan's doing.)

[ClassWarrior]

36. No official polling since about a month and a half ago...

...but things at least feel positive. It feels like there's a chance. Folks are saying the fact that F. Jim has actually been spending serious time in his own district lately indicates his nervousness.

:hi: bleev...

NGU.

[Mythsaje]

15. Thanks, Nance...

I'm pretty damn well fed up with it myself.

Every such thread makes me want to go into a rant that would set the whole network on fire.

[NanceGreggs]

16. Yeah, we have to be careful with our lengthy rants ...

... we could end up clogging all the internetz tubes!!!

[Mythsaje]

19. These people are really starting to piss me off...n/t

[Raster]

18. Kicked and recommended!! Another fine rant.

:kick:11!

[Mr_Spock]

20. That's a rant I can recommend without missing a beat

I am optimistic as well and feel exatly as you do WRT those topics & the effect they may have on others.

[JeffR]

22. Too right

This should be a sticky at the top of the forum from now until Election Day.

:applause:

[roguevalley]

25. Howard Dean, on Ed Schultz today, said that there were 7500 lawyers

waiting to step in for fraud. They tested it in Virginia and ironed out the bugs. Call 1-888-???-???? (I think it was dem-vote) and they would hop on it. He said 2/3 of the states do verified voting and one third don't. They are covering the 1/3. I feel better than I could possibly ever feel right now. I agree with you, NanceGreggs.

[JeffR]

30. That's good news indeed

Hadn't heard this, but one thing I love about DU is that there are so many sets of eyes and ears I never have to worry about missing something important.

Thanks!

[bleever]

27. There's a big difference between knowing

that there are rapids ahead, and declaring "We're dooooooooomed!!1!!!"

This is a great place for the people who know the difference.


NGU.

[thatsrightimirish]

28. good post

couldn't agree more

[Tace]

32. The People Need To Demand Fair Elections

Mark Crispin Miller wrote some interesting articles earlier this month:

http://www.worldnewstrust.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=296

http://www.worldnewstrust.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=412

Where he suggests that the "Fix" may be a foregone conclusion. However, he believes the American people need to stand up and demand fair elections, in any case.

On Edit: Of course, this is premised on a Democratic system, where people go to the polls and vote.

[NanceGreggs]

34. With all due respect to Mr. Miller (and others) ...

... declaring that the "fix" is a foregone conclusion doesn't cause anyone to stand up and demand fair elections. It causes people to say "Why bother?"

What IS a foregone conclusion is the fact that you can't complain your vote wasn't counted - if you never cast one in the first place.

[Tace]

37. Nance, You're Right

Let's all go vote, and get everyone else to, also. : )

[Lochloosa]

39. Morning Kick!

[SheilaT]

40. I'm one of the

ones who keeps on piping up with warnings about overconfidence. Indeed, until about three weeks ago I was totally convinced that the Republicans would win, and win big, this election, actually gaining seats in the House and Senate. In the aftermath of the whole Mark Foley thing the house of cards is falling. And even the mainstream media is being tougher on the Republicans. This morning on NPR the NPR guy was absolutely hammering whatever Republican he was speaking to. I was so amazed, that I can't really recall who was the R -- maybe it was the story about the anti-Ford ads in Tennessee.

It does feel as though the mood of the country has genuinely changed to the point where it is going to be very hard to steal this election. Unfortunately, two years ago a lot of people who should have known better bought into the "They got out more votes than we did" nonsense. But if there really are some 7500 attorneys ready to jump into the fray on election day itself, then it will be much more difficult to pull off the most obvious vote-stealing, and that gives me hope. What worries me is what happened in 2000, 2002, and 2004, which was high level Democrats simply rolling over and accepting the results without ever demanding recounts. Maybe this time it really will be different.

But all of the gleeful "What we're going to do immediately after November 7th" threads bother me a lot.

[NanceGreggs]

41. Bur warnings about being over-confident ...

... are also constructive. We don't want anyone thinking this thing is in-the-bag, so there's no need to keep working hard to get the vote out.

And the gloom-and-doomers have a right to their nay-saying, and I've seen threads specifically on that topic where all can join in and share the misery. That's fine with me - I just don't go there.

What I was really taking aim at is the people who insist on posting in the middle of an upbeat, positive discussion with the "you're-all-wasting-your-time" message ...

[SheilaT]

43. I do realize that you,

NanceGreggs, are being realistic, and that there's room for a valid discourse on the outcome of the election, how confident we should be, and so on. I've been blasted at various times for trying to introduce what I see as some realistic thinking here. Not that flames have ever bothered me, quite frankly. I'll keep on giving my opinion, and I also appreciate others.

Thanks for all your posts.

[NanceGreggs]

45. Thanks, SheilaT ...

I, too, appreciate the opinions of others - especially here. I've never put anyone on 'ignore', because (as is the case with all of us) I can be totally on the opposite side of someone on one thread, and totally ON their side in another.

I don't object to people trying to be realistic leading up to this election, or pointing out the problems that we continue to face right up until the last hour of voting.

The only people my anger was aimed at is those who persist in disrupting a positive-thinking thread with "the fix is already in" and/or "thanks to Diebold, nobody's vote will ever count."

If there is anything CONSTRUCTIVE that is done by saying that, I would really appreciate knowing what it is -- because it's a total mystery to me.

Thanks for your input - let's hope we're both hungover on the morning of November 8th, thanks to all of the celebrating!!!

[BeFree]

42. Well

I'll never bother to click on your threads again.

You obviously believe rove, et al when they say the Dems are losers.

I believe Dems are winners and not only do I believe the Dems are winners I believe the election will be stolen again and I am working harder than ever to make sure the Publicans don't steal it again by working a campaign office for 12 days straight now.

As far as I can tell you are the queen of denial!

So long!

[NanceGreggs]

44. I'm sure I'd have a snappy reply ...

... if I could understand what you're saying.

An entire post about how I believe the Democrats are on their way to a big win, and yet I believe "Rove, et al when they say the Dems are losers"?

Hmmm, okay ............

[BeFree]

46. So, to be fair

Just answer this simple question: Do you think Kerry was beaten fair and square in the 2004 presidential election?

Most people duck this question and go off in denial, obfuscation or into space. Really, I don't know why, the answer is either a yes, or no.

[NanceGreggs]

47. Kerry beaten fair and square?

OF COURSE NOT -- and I think the evidence of what went on during the 2004 election, especially in Ohio, leaves no doubt about that.

I'm just realizing why you said what you did - I think you've mis-read the intent of my post (and if that's the case, I apologize for not being as clear as I thought I'd been.)

I am not dismissing the power of Diebold manipulation - or other forms of voter suppression. IMHO, there is no doubt that these are realities that we are facing.

What I am disputing is the just-give-up attitude of people who say this election CANNOT BE WON because of Diebold, and all of the other nasty tricks up the GOP's collective sleeves.

Getting out the vote, in record numbers, is the only way to win. And we can do it on one of two levels: (a) the vote for Dems is so overwhelming, they are declared the victors outright, or (b) the GOP delcares 'impossible' wins in races where the pre-election polls have shown the opposite of the official count, and their manipulation of the vote is exposed for all to see.

That's why I am happy to see so many enthusiastic posts about the GREAT poll numbers the Dems are getting, as well as the posts about the actions to take if yet another election gets stolen. These are both constructive and positive approaches.

As I said in another reply on this thread, if we do not get out there and vote, we can't complain that we were Diebolded again, because you can't bitch about your vote not being counted if you never voted in the first place.

We DO have to work that much harder than the other side to win this -- but it's not impossible. We're no longer alone in wanting to see change - we now have a lot of former Republican voters ready to vote WITH us this time.

If we stand together (and vote together) not only as a party, but as American citizens who have had enough of the Bush regime, WE CANNOT BE DEFEATED, one way or the other.

[BeFree]

48. I'm glad you cleared that up

You see, it has been my experience that those who most object to the diebold subject being brought up are those who think Dems are losers... that the American people actually voted in the majority for bushco. And that really makes me mad.

Consider this: some of the 'diebold'r posters post like they do as a way to motivate others to sit up and take notice of the reality. I can see how some might venture a guess that they are trying to get people to not vote, but that is, IMO, an assumption without real basis.

And of couse some might be trolls taking an advantage of a really awful situation, but those should be dealt with on an individual basis. But if some, really, honestly feel doomed, don't you think it is a better approach to find a way to convince them they should not feel so doomed?

Thanks for getting back to me. Like I say most people just slink away when asked about the 2004 election.

[NanceGreggs]

49. And again I apologize for being (albeit inadvertently) ...

... misleading in what I was trying to say.

I don't believe there is no basis, however, for complaining about the specific posts I'm talking about.

When I see a post that says, for example, "Don't forget about Diebold, expunging legitimate voters from the poll lists," etc., that makes me think, "Shit, you're right. I'd better make some phone calls and make sure EVERYONE I know is going out to vote."

On the other hand, when I see a post that says, "They've already won, thanks to Diebold," that doesn't encourage me, or anyone else, to keep up the good fight. That's defeatism in its worst form. That says, in BIG, BOLD letters: "You're wasting your time, don't bother."

And by the way, on behalf of everyone who IS fighting the good fight, thanks for your time and effort in campaigning!!!!! (You must be exhausted these days, but I'm sure it will be worth it!)

:patriot: :toast: