Wouldn't ABB include Nader?

[dansolo]

ABB is truly a misnomer, because then a third party candidate would be just as legitimate recipient of the ABB vote. I personally would never vote for Nader, but shouldn't we stop using the term ABB when what we really mean is "whoever the Democratic candidate is"?

[absyntheNsugar]

1. Hate to repeat myself but

A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. If you want to see Bush pack his bags for Crawford, voting for Nader will effectively throw your vote in the toilet.

Should Kerry win the nomination (and I am hoping he doesn't) a vote for Nader=Bush. A vote for Bush=Bush. A vote for Kerry will mean Kerry is our president. I'm not a big fan of Kerry, but he's a whole lot better than the genocidal maniac sitting in the Oval Office today.

[FreeperSlayer]

6. Absolutely!

Nader is crap.

[Terwilliger]

13. does anyone here read? or is ABB affecting your brain??

:shrug:

[Iverson]

58. repetition is essential for that proposition's acceptance

A vote for someone is a vote for someone.

x = x.
Milk is milk.
A rose is a rose is a rose.

I really have had more than my fill of "if yer not with us, yer agin' us."

[bowens43]

61. Only a vote for bush is a vote for bush

A vote for Nader is a vote Nader. The fact that you may not agree with the way someone chooses to vote in no way negates or diminishes that persons vote.

[Renew Deal]

2. whoever the Democratic candidate is what it means.

[Terwilliger]

14. not ABB then

[Renew Deal]

31. In a way it is

Because a vote for anyone other than the nominee is a vote for Bush*.

[Old and In the Way]

39. ABB= Anbody But Bushbutthatpersonhastobeademocrat

We usually shorten it to Anybody But Bush because we assume most reasonable people understand that it means a Democrat. Anyone else running as an Indepnedent or Green or ?? would be a vote for Bush.

Does that help clarify it for you?

[maddezmom]

60. that's my definition :)

thanks for the clarification.

[spooky3]

66. Given that this is Democratic Underground, I thought

everyone understood that ABB meant Any Democrat But Bush. It would not be reasonable to assume that Democrats were equally interested in getting a Libertarian or KKKer elected.

[slackdude]

3. It's about viability

If Nader was more of a viable candidate than whoever the dems nominate, than he would be the ABB candidate. The idea is not to vote for anybody but Bush, but the candidate who can beat him.

[NoPasaran]

7. And that could only happen

If the Democrats break apart like they did in 1860. And if that were to happen, why wait until winter to move to Canada?

[Terwilliger]

15. Then ABB should cease

and you could call it "I'll vote for whatever Democrat wins the nomination"

[slackdude]

28. IVFWDWTN?

IVFWDWTN doesn't quite have the same ring as ABB.

[Terwilliger]

41. the same "ring" as ABB? ABB means anybody

How about a SOCKING campaign slogan:

VOTE FOR ME!

*WHOA* What a concept!!

[reprehensor]

4. Fornicate Nader!

Seriously!

[mvd]

5. It's a catchy slogan

That doesn't have to be taken literally and that seriously IMO. I'm really AABB (almost anyone but Bush) and wouldn't vote if someone was even close to as bad as Bush.

[Meldread]

8. Yes, it means anybody.

Although it was started by the DLC as propaganda to gear people up to vote for the eventual Democratic Nominee. It's taken root in the popular lexicon for those who are anti-Bush, so it no longer means "whoever the Democratic Nominee is", it means literally "Anybody But Bush".

Also don’t buy into the whole “voting for a third party is a vote for Bush” crap. Vote for whoever you damn well please that’s why we live in a Democracy. As far as I’m concerned a vote for Kerry in the Primaries is voting to give Bush the General Election, but people are still doing it – that’s their right even if I do believe it’s the wrong decision. (Especially when, at least based on the exit polls, people are voting on ‘electability’.)

[mdguss]

9. I am

Only the Democratic Nominee. No Nader for me. So, at this point, that is any Democrat but Bush.

[mvd]

10. I would only make a statement

in much less dire circumstances. I would vote for Nader over Bush if he was OUR nominee.

[Meldread]

11. Then you are: DNOB!

Democratic Nominee Over Bush!

:P

[fujiyama]

12. I was thinkin the same thing...

ADNOB (Any Democrat Nominee over Bush)

[Terwilliger]

18. Even Dean?

Kucinich? Sharpton?

[slackdude]

30. Even Lieberman?

or what if Zell Miller somehow pulled off getting nominated? I think I'd have to sit that one out.

[fujiyama]

52. Zell Miller...

No, for the simple reason that he has voted for justa bout everything Bush has put forward. He also ended up endorsing the guy, so it's very doubtful he'd be any improvement over Bush.

Lieberman on the other hand is frustrating, because of his support for the war and whoring for pharmacueticals and other corporations, and constant moralizing. But he's still decent on the environment, gay and lesbian rights, and taxes (he did vote against tax cuts). Even he'd be an improvement over Bush.

[fujiyama]

50. Anyone of them...

over Bush...

Ideally that would be Kucinich of course!

[Meldread]

27. Or drop the N...

ADOB (Any Democrat Over Bush)

That sounds better.

[mvd]

16. I still don't take it seriously

Even the DLC wouldn't say Cheney is better than Bush.

[MurikanDemocrat]

20. You just made that up! ABB means the Democratic nominee

And the rest of your post is hyperbole.

No matter what you claim to be your principles and values, a third party vote essentially helps Bush.

And if you are voting against Kerry instead of voting against Bush, you've got some strange priorities, and have no business calling yourself a Democrat.

[Meldread]

25. No, it's you who have no business...

No, it's you who have no business calling yourself a Democrat. Democrats stand for the democratic process -- we don't try and black mail or guilt people into voting for who the DLC selects. If the DLC can't select someone who is capable of broad appeal and the DLC loses the General Election it is THEIR fault NOT someone who voted for a third party.

It's time to grow up and accept responsibility. This isn't High School. Welcome to the real world where the grown-ups accept responsibility for their fuck-ups, and hopefully learn from them. (Meaning in the future to elect a candidate who has a chance of winning the General Election.)

[MurikanDemocrat]

32. I am not the one here trying to guilt people into changing

their votes. You are.

You are the one starting thread after thread complaining that the majority of voters so far have made the wrong choice because they do not agree with YOU! Other people are stupid, undemocratic, unpatriotic, and uninformed, because they did not pick Dean, and do not agree with YOU.

Get off your high horse and accept the fact that others can make a choice that does not agree with yours, and it does NOT mean they are stupid, uninformed, have no values or morals, do not love their country or the democratic process, or accept responsibility.

Accept the fact that people compared the candidates and chose Kerry over Dean. Some people do not like Dean!

I am not asking you to like Kerry. I am not even asking you to vote for Kerry. You mischaracterized the meaning of ABB, as you mischaracterize anything Kerry, and I set the record straight.

And whether you like it or not, this election IS about replacing Bush. There is only ONE way to do that - vote for the Democratic nominee. You don't stand a chance in hell of changing any of the things you don't like with Bush in office, it has to start with a Democrat in office. Sorry, but it doesn't look like it's going to be Dean. Don't blame that on Kerry or Kerry supporters - blame it on Dean.

[Meldread]

33. What does any of this have to do with Dean?

I mean really you must have some strange fetish about Dean by bringing him up constantly when he has nothing to do with the subject. It's about ABB and what it stands for. ABB = Anybody But Bush -- in English that could mean anyone on this entire planet except GW Bush. That's English. Greens and other people use the ABB reference as well. They get the bumper stickers. They aren't going to vote for the Democratic Nominee -- I guarantee you that. It's just a catch phrase.

If you are not ABB you are ADOB (Any Democrat Over Bush). Why is that so hard to comprehend -- this is the English language after all, and I am assuming that it's your native tongue.

I don't support Kerry. I fully intend to point out Kerry's flaws and where I disagree with him. Kerry supporters do it for Dean supporters, so saying that is like throwing a stone while living in a glass house.

[MurikanDemocrat]

35. I mention Dean because it's his loss that is woven into

all of the threads I've read recently from you in your Kerry attack and mischaracterization threads.

ABB's origination and intention has always meant the Democratic nominee. It was created BY the Democratic Party FOR the Democratic Party and to suggest or spin it to say the Democratic Party machinery ever intended it to benefit any OTHER party such as the Green or the Republican Party is just plain absurd.

Now I apologize for losing my temper with you, but that razor cuts both ways. If you want to preach to the choir, go ahead. You are not going to change anyone's mind. And I understand there are going to be critisisms of the front runner no matter who that may be. That's politics.

But as you intend to point out flaws, I intend to point out DELIBERATE mischaracterizations of the facts.

[dansolo]

38. Then shouldn't we wait until a nominee is selected?

The thing that bothers me, and the reason that I started this thread, is that ABB is being used to bludgeon people into pledging their support for Kerry before he has even been selected as the nominee. ABB should not be brought up until the general election, and bringing it up now is only going to antagonize the supporters of the other candidates.

[MurikanDemocrat]

40. I haven't seen the threads you refer to that

you say use ABB to "bludgeon people into pledging their support for Kerry before he has even been selected as the nominee"

I would have to agree with you though. I DO respect your dedication, loyalty, and support of your candidate, whomever that may be, and there NO reason as far as I'm concerned to withdraw your support in the primaries, as long as they are still running as primary candidates.

To me, ABB is only useful in the General Election. ABB is really overrated if you ask me. There are only two major parties. Before this election, it's never been necessary to tell Democrats to vote for the Democratic nominee, they've always just done it for the most part. It's just that this time, Bush and his band of thieves are SO bad, that they came up with this ABB to emphasize the point of how badly we want to get rid of him.

[Old and In the Way]

43. Why would this even be a point of discussion after the nomination?

ABB will be inoperative. John Kerry, or whoever, is the Party's nominee is, will be our candidate. At that point, I really hope that the board gets fully behind the nominee and supports him fully.

I would hope that we won't have to suffer posters who will encourage Democrats to vote their conscience and vote a 3rd Party candidate...because that really would be no different then RNC Ops coming on board asking us to support Bush, would it?

[MurikanDemocrat]

51. According to the rules I read when I signed on,

organizing for 3rd party candidates is not supposed to be allowed here.

[Old and In the Way]

42. Thanks Meldread..................I'm hanging with the people's choice:

John Forbes Kerry.

If I wanted to be an elitist snob that seems to think only my esteemed political analysis counts, I'd probably vote for Dean.

But then, I'd have to live with 4 more years of Bush, so I won't be making that mistake.

:-)

[bowens43]

62. What in ABB

leads you to believe it means the Democratic Nominee? It doesn't say that. It doesn't even hint at that. ABB could be Trent Lott or Hitler or Rush or Cheney. It makes us sound desperate and like we have already lost.

You think we should vote against people rather then for them?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Meldread]

26. No problem.

I believe in democracy that's why I'm a democrat. I leave the ballot box bulling to the Republicans.

[UTUSN]

17. ABB Misnomer, shd be Anybody (who can) BEAT (Shrub)

And since NADIR couldn't, even if he were one-on-one with Shrub, this strikes him out.

[Eric J in MN]

24. it means "I want to put ABB in the White House by voting for the Dem." nt

nt

[mot78]

19. No because most DUers know it's meaning

The only people trying to apply Nader to ABB are people who are trying to find an excuse to vote Nader or Green.

[bowens43]

63. Votes don't need excuses.

People should vote their conscience and you should respect that.

[MurikanDemocrat]

21. No, Nader is not a Democrat

ABB means any Democrat but Bush

[Terwilliger]

36. ONCE AGAIN...there is no "Anybody But Bush" then

It's Any Democrat That We Run Against Bush

That's supposed to include Dean and Kucinich, but I bet a LOT of DUers would NOT be ABB (or the Dem equivalent) if they were the party nominees.

[Old and In the Way]

44. ONCE AGAIN.........we will support Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton, Clark

Edwards, or Kerry. Happily. They are Democrats. Whoever wins the nomination. You could bet that wasn't the case...but you'd lose.

(1) Any of the above = Democrat Vote
(2) Independent Nader = Bush Vote
(3) Anyone elese not a Democrat = Bush Vote
(4) Bush = Bush Vote

Is that clearer?

[Terwilliger]

45. Thanks OAITW

but I'm trying to correct misunderstanding, not perpetuate it

[Old and In the Way]

47. I know Ter, it's a very difficult concept to get one's head around

Public education is a good thing!

:-)

[Terwilliger]

49. well, it's not that good

far too many people in this country don't have the first clue, and they were all "edumacated"

[MurikanDemocrat]

71. That's just shit picking over semantics

The phrase was devised by the DEMOCRATIC Party and clearly intended to include Democratic candidates only.

You remind me of the story about when a parent tells a child to go wash or take a bath. Yes, it means WITH soap!

[bowens43]

64. But he is ABB.

[Eric J in MN]

23. When people say "ABB," they don't mean that they're going to write-in

When people say "ABB," they don't mean that they're going to write-in the name of a celebrity, and they don't mean that they are going to voter for Nader.

They mean they want Anybody But Bush in the White House and so will vote for the Democrat in November.

[onehandle]

29. ABB implied a Democrat at it's creation...

It was created as a peace branch around the debates/primaries, and to make the chimp look bad.

I tire of the question.

[mvd]

34. People make exaggerations all the time

I don't understand the fuss.

[Terwilliger]

37. Let's look at English, shall we?

"Anybody" refers to everyone...not specific people or a specific group

"But" implies the negative

"Bush" you don't like Bush and feel "anybody" would be better in the job than he

So, just remember that ABB, while quaint, sounds really stupid and intolerant to the swing voters you people claim are so necessary for victory.

[Old and In the Way]

46. So what's your point?

Where are the swing voters going to go? 2 choices. Unless you want to tell us that Nader is a viable alternative to the two. If you do, please explain why.

Just wondering, but after the nomination is wrapped up, will you still be posting here?

[Terwilliger]

48. Yep...and posting for Nader

I'm a Rove plant as I'm sure you've already determined.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

54. Rove plant, get him!!!

You must like that evil communist republican Nader guy?! If it wasn't for you and your fascist corporate backers, Bush would not be in office and we would have Gore saving us all from corporate domination! Because you know how much Gore is not a corporatist!!

Go away traitor!

TWL





p.s. Terwilliger, how was that?

[Old and In the Way]

55. That's 1 of 4 possibilities.

:-)

[mitchum]

53. Only if you wanted to be all picayune about it

[Gore1FL]

56. ABB sort of implies realistic candidates

A post a week or two ago asked about LaRouche.

Larouche is not credible, so it is nothing short of silly speculation.

ABB imnplies the Dem candidate, and that should be blatently obvious without parsing it to pieces.

[bowens43]

65. Quite the opposite.

It implies ANYBODY , Democrat or not, candidate or not, on the ballot or not. It's a weak position that doesn't inspire. It's the politics of desperation.

[Edge]

57. ABB includes everyone who isn't the Democratic nominee.

A vote for Nader = vote for bush. A vote for LaRouche = vote for Bush. A vote for Bush = A vote for Bush.

He who doesn't vote Democrat come November votes for Bush. It's that simple.

[vi5]

59. ABB is about democrats, by democrats, who want to stay democrats...

Until recently when people have had to actually step up and accept the fact that (shock!) we may not actually get a candidate who is morally pure and some sort of corruption fighting superhero, ABB meant that within the democratic party, those who are democrats and who fully realize that despite all it's flaws, is still our best opportunity for change in this country and as such would vote for any DEMOCRAT in the primary field come the general election.

Many of us didn't think Clinton was any great shakes but you know what? He did a lot of good for this country that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't president.

So Vote Nader. I dont' plan on begging any liberals to vote for the Dem nominee. It's going to be much easier to convince moderate, undediceds, swing voters and disenchanted liberals. They aren't demanding ideological purity. Just someone who can get the job done without destroying the country. They don't care about shady conspiracy theories and secret societies or who is "taking the fight to Bush". In fact many of them don't even HATE Bush. Those people will be more easily convinced. Come to think of it, my two year old daughter could probably be more easily convinced of the concept that you can't always get 100% of your way 100% of the time.

[IndianaGreen]

69. Why don't you give that loyalty oath to the DLC?

They want the Democratic Party to become the Rockefeller wing of the GOP.

[Iverson]

67. What if we obsessed about Ralph Nader?

What then?

[Mairead]

68. People who say in all seriousness that ABB 'really means'

the Dem nominee have the same kind of parochial attitude that's often lampooned about, e.g., New Yorkers. There's a joke map showing how New Yorkers (Manhattanites specifically, iirc) allegedly view the the USA: it consists of Manhattan plus an unpopulated wasteland stretching to the Pacific Ocean.

But that map is a joke New Yorkers tell on themselves; nobody takes it seriously. The 'ABB' parochialism here, though, does seem to be taken seriously, and even angrily so.

How sad!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

70. ABB = Anybody But another Bonesman

:evilgrin: