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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:08 PM
Original message
Wes Clark meets with war criminal.
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 01:34 PM by sfecap
On August 27, 1994, representing the Joint Chiefs of Staff during a fact-finding mission to Bosnia, Clark "ignored State Department warnings not to meet with Serb officials suspected of ordering deaths of civilians in a campaign known as ethnic cleansing" and paid a courtesy call on Serbian army commander Ratko Mladic. Mladic was already the subject of multiple U.S. war-crimes charges: "artillery attacks on civilians in Sarajevo" and the "razing of Muslim towns and villages," along with random acts of "mass murder."

According to a contemporaneous Washington Post report: "On Friday and again on Saturday, State Department officials said, they instructed not to go, but he went anyway." The meeting "occurred as the Clinton administration is trying to isolate the Serbs in advance of possible military action against them."





Photo: (August 27, 1994) Lt. General Wesley Clark meets and exchanges hats with Serbian war criminal Ratko Mladic. Clark accepted as gifts from Mladic a hat, bottle of brandy and a pistol inscribed in Cyrrilic. A US official complained of Clark’s unauthorized visit: “It's like cavorting with Hermann Goering.”

Of course what would one expect from a man who praises bush* and considers Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Perle, Feith et al "colleagues" and friends? Rumsfeld shakes Saddams hand, Clark accepts gifts from murderous war criminals. See any similarity here?

Is this why Clark was fired? Does he have an integrity "problem"?

Don't we already have a neocon in the WH?









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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. I just spoke out agiant an anti Dean flame bait thread
Before that thread got locked, I was about to blast the original poster again but ran out of time. Wonder how quickly we can get this anti-Clark flame bait thead locked? I've lost patience in this from all sides.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I hear ya Tom
:)
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November 2004 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. link please
He testified admirably at the Hague.

I request a link.

This post really looks like flamebait...and possibly slander...sorry, just my take.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. From a British Paper on Clark's Presidential Aspirations.
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 01:16 PM by Tinoire
Paul Harris
Sunday September 21, 2003
The Observer

<snip>

Clark has slipped up before. During talks to end the Bosnian war he met Serb General Ratko Mladic, a man whose hands are stained with the blood of many innocents. But Clark and Mladic got along fine (perhaps they had to) and swapped caps and posed for pictures. Clark even accepted a bottle of plum brandy and an engraved pistol from the murderer. It triggered a huge press furore. Such a public relations disaster could kill Clark as a viable candidate. And there is no doubt that the rocky terrain of an American election is every bit as treacherous as a Balkan civil war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1047378,00.html

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. That is out and out absurd
Sorry, but this is just not even close to the case. He did after all, bomb the Hell out of them and wanted to invade. He was hardly a coddler of the Serbs. Though even he admits the presents were a bad idea.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Absurd?
Not at all...

This is what is going to get rolled out against Clark. Is he the best candidate?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yes, absurd.
And to use 'friend' to describe Miladic is unexcusable. :grr:
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Gee, they look pretty friendly.
But in fairness, I changed the title.

Feel better?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. It's still a lame non-issue.
:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. This falme bait doesn't help Gov. Dean at all!
This 'scorched earth', tit-for-tat crap has GOTTA stop! :grr:
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. Maybe he was "keeping his enemies closer"?
Does anyone disagree that Clark did the best job possible in Kosovo? Don't they consider him a hero over there? Wasn't he the one who was willing to risk soldier's lives to win that war?
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Clark served honorably in Kosovo
This crap reminds me of the Bushco slander against McCain.

Shameful.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
42. What was honorable about it?
What is honorable about bombing hospitals, power grids, trains and killing civilians to steal their country's resources?

What is honorable about making your pilots fly so high that they can't distinguish any targets and end up committing war crimes with which they have to live for the rest of their lives? Or deliberately cutting off fuel, food and energy from the civilians of Belgrade in the dead of winter?

There was nothing honorable about it at all.

----
The French Connection

The first time President Chirac of France realized how fast and far the air campaign had moved from its original, modest size was when he watched the Yugoslav Interior Ministry erupt into a fireball on April 3, day 11 of the war.

"Paris was pretty shocked," a French diplomat recalled. Chirac requested an urgent telephone call with Clinton to discuss the strategy being pursued by Gen. Wesley K. Clark, the supreme allied commander in Europe.

<snip>

That day, Chirac told Clinton he wanted a say, along with the American president and the British prime minister, in all crucial decisions about the war. Clinton told Chirac the target approval process was already too slow. He agreed to include the Frenchman but proposed that they agree in advance on the kinds of airstrikes over which each leader would reserve a veto.

Chirac asked to review any targets in Montenegro, a small republic of Yugoslavia that had remained democratic and was trying to stay out of the war. Blair wanted a veto over all targets to be struck by B-52 bombers taking off from British soil. And all three leaders wanted to review targets that might cause high casualties or affect a large number of civilians, such as the electrical grid, telephone system and buildings in downtown Belgrade.

<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/sept99/airwar20.htm


---
Aug 20, 1999 The Guardian UK: 'Nato chiefs ordered the bombing of non-military targets throughout Yugoslavia despite opposition from allied governments, the organization's top general has admitted. In the clearest evidence yet that the military planners overrode their political masters, General Wesley Clark, the supreme allied commander, will reveal tonight how he worked out which governments “wanted to push harder, which ones were nervous”. He adds pointedly: “I didn't always defer to those who wanted targets withheld.”' http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,203167,00.html
===

Washing His Hands

Feb 7, 2002 The Colorado Springs Independent Newsweekly:

'“Dual-use targets aren't prohibited by international law,” Clark said. “What's prohibited are purely civilian targets or humanitarian targets. … So if a road is used by the military and civilians, the road's a target. If electricity is used by the military and civilians, the electricity's a target.” Under such an interpretation, most target restrictions implied by the Geneva Conventions would be thrown out the window, critics have said'.

<snip>

"Contrary to the beliefs of our war planners, unrestricted air bombing is barred under international law," wrote Walter Rockler, an attorney who prosecuted Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg, in a May 23, 1999 Chicago Tribune op-ed criticizing the war. "Bombing the 'infrastructure' of a country -- waterworks, electricity plants, bridges, factories, television and radio locations -- is not an attack limited to legitimate military objectives."

http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2002-02-07/news.html
--

Published on Wednesday, June 7, 2000 in the Independent / UK
Amnesty International:
NATO Deliberately Attacked Civilians In Serbia
by Robert Fisk

Only five days after NATO was "exonerated" by the International War Crimes Tribunal for its killing of civilians in Yugoslavia last year, Amnesty International today publishes a blistering attack on the Alliance, accusing it of committing serious violations of the rules of war, unlawful killings and – in the case of the bombing of Serbia's television headquarters – a war crime.
The 65-page Amnesty report details a number of mass killings of civilians in NATO raids and states that "civilian deaths could have been significantly reduced if NATO forces had fully adhered to the rules of war.

<snip>
Amnesty records that NATO aircraft flew 10,484 strike missions over Serbia and that Serbian statistics of civilian deaths in NATO raids range from 400-600 up to 1,500. It specifically condemns NATO for an attack on a bridge at Varvarin on 30 May last year, which killed at least 11 civilians. "NATO forces failed to suspend their attack after it was evident that they had struck civilians," Amnesty says.

<snip>
The report says NATO repeatedly gave priority to pilots' safety at the cost of civilian lives. In several investigations of civilian deaths, Amnesty quotes from reports in The Independent, including an investigation into the bombing of a hospital at Surdulica on 31 May. The Independent disclosed in November that Serb soldiers were sheltering on the ground floor of the hospital when it was bombed but that all the casualties were civilian refugees living on the upper floors.

Amnesty says: "If NATO intentionally bombed the hospital complex because it believed it was housing soldiers, it may well have violated the laws of war. According to Article 50(3) of Protocol 1, 'the presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character'.

<snip>


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/060700-02.htm

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. It's amazing to me that Bill Clinton had to conduct himself
in a way that would cause no military deaths to Americans, while causing more suffering to innocent people on the ground, because he knew the right wing would be all over him if one American died trying to bring an end to Milosevic.

However, Bush has hundreds of Americans dying for a reason that is unclear. Yet there's apparently almost no outrage in the US over this.

I think it's proof of how the media tells people what to think in the US.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. That dichotomy has struck me too
but it still doesn't make it right. We destroyed an entire country, littering it with depleted uranium that will make people sick for generations to come and stole their resources.

As a soldier I just can't accept it because my entire job was to die if need be but not to harm innocent civilians.

We agree very much on what you just said about the media but on another hand, the media served that war well because it didn't cover it and when it did, it was covered with so much spin that to this day most people have no idea what really happened over there.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. I fail to see this being Clark's fault
Clark was in favor of both invasion and lower flying. It was Clinton and Cohen who were against that.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. No context--this is just scandalous flame-bait.
nt
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. force = last resort
see.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. Moderator
Has it been proven that Clark and Mladic are friends? I don't think so. Clark is long ago on record saying the hat exchange gesture was a foolish thing to have agreed to, but the meeting with Mladic itself proved instrumental in gathering information that proved very valuable to NATO and the U.S.

This is flame bait through and through
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. it gets posted atleast 3 or 4 times a week n/t
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batman Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. many things here are considered up for debate, infact all things
are subject to ones interpretation.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. Not in this case...
This is a lie...and those who post this are no better than those who we will face in the general election. If you think your pure politics are saving the Democratic party, you couldn't be more wrong.

Clark on a fact finding mission with Holbrooke had been in the Croatian trenches, and in order to write a credible report needed to go to the Serbian trenches. If he hadn't gone there, the buzz would have been that it was a one-sides report. He admits that trading hats was a stupid move. The war criminal in questions had not yet been designated a "war criminal." and given the fact that Clark's report...which covered both sides...was credible, the man's days were numbered.

Debate? Are you trying to say that you actually expect me to be so foolish as to believe that you WANT a debate? How transparently dishonest of you to even make such a remark.

This trash has been posted...reposted...and reposted.

The gang that rushes to make the same regurgitated ugly remarks, appear like clock work. Any feigned interest in debate, or reading or information has long ago become a cruel joke.

So am I to assume that you favor one-sided biased information become the rule in the international arena? If Clark hadn't interviewed the Serbs and produced a one-sided argument, who would be howling the loudest? Oh, I think we all know the answer to that. Because essentially, respect for the truth has never been the driving force behind this thread and many others.

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wndycty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Tom you know there is a double standard. . .
. . .I have given up.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. I think this is one of the most unifying posts today!
Nearly every one has the same opionion.

Thanks for the post!

:hi:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. We may support different candidates, but...
... we all recognize pyre, unadulterated bullsh*t when we read it, I think. :hi:
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Indeed!!!
nt
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. in a non-inflammatory way...
I still want to get to the end of the Kosovo connection. There was a couple great threads in past regarding such with help from Tinore, etc. Although I do know its not neccessarily a war crime what happened, I personally feel any unjust and unneccessary conflict is a "crime against humanity".

Yes, this thread and the manner at which it was started is not cool, and is a shadow of a week of tactics many people on this board deplore. On the other hand, Id love to hear everyone's views about this conflicts justifications, or problems, in the future in a more moderate environment.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Playing devils advocate then
and assuming the Kosovo action by NATO was unjustified (I don't take that position except for the sake of argument)...

As stated he played a fact finding role earlier in Bosnia, and then became commander of NATO forces.

what would you expect from a person in Clark's position?

What should he have done that he did not as a commander of military forces?

(Please do not make him responsible for the politics of the whole Western world.)
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I know you will not like this answer,
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 01:47 PM by OrAnarch
But operating on the premise that the Kosovo war was unjustified and avoidable, then from a man in his position, given command of NATO forces, I would expect nothing less than either of the following two options: 1) a resignation and full return to the United states followed with public statements of why the war was unjustified, or 2) a full protest from his command and a refusal to participate and subject his troops to the unjust war.


That is what I expect from ALL SOLDIERS involved in unjust wars. To either put down their guns and come home or to protest.


At the very least, if they screwed up being young, I expect a full apology for their actions later, and not their commitment to the military service for another 30 years (in regards to Clark's service following Vietnam).


I am pretty firm on that...if the war was unjustified, regardless of your job, you are still human and can think before acting, and hence, are responsible for your actions.



Whether or not you agree or disagree on wat he should have done, the question posed that we should answer regarding that little-known war, is was it justified? I am honestly undecided on that one (but not on others).
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. I accept that
I didn't pose the question thinking you would answer any other way.

Now lets proceed on how Clark or a soldier would make that judgement. This would be the biggest decision of their lives. They would have to be informed on the political issues of the conflict. They would have to first hand, witness the conflict, they would have to talk to the parties involved to get both sides of the story. There would be some things they would not know, that governments would keep from them.

Now, Clark did most of those things. He was there. He had a chance to make that judgement. He felt so strongly about it, that he fought against the fears in America of political ramifications, he did all that because he wanted to save lives.

Now, we can all differ on whether his judgment was right or wrong, but are any of us here in a strong position to question his judgement?
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Absolutely.
Anyone can question this judgement. We are not fascists.


That same argument could apply to any person in any war, including Iraq, who was just there to save all the lives. Its bullshit global-liberal untopian anarchist worldview. Unforts this greater good rarely comes about from this overhyped humanitarian crisis that exists to disghuise alternative motives.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. I didn't say you couldn't
I indicated I don't think you have a strong (fact based) case, relative to General Clark.

And you seem to be pretty good at hyping yourself.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. The war against Yugoslavia was all about oil- just like Iraq
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 02:13 PM by Tinoire
all about oil and expanding our empire. The more I read about this war, the sicker I get. Thanks for your open mind. War is a horrible thing and rich countries keep their place in the international pecking order. I can't white-wash this just because it happened under our watch- especially when you consider it was a DLC watch- they seem to have an awful lot in common with certain Republicans.

Peace

Check these out:

An article in the Jerusalem Post at the time of the Kosovo civil war had said, "Diplomats in the region say Bosnia was the first bastion of Islamic power. The autonomous Yugoslav region of Kosovo promises to be the second. During the current rebellion against the Yugoslav army, the ethnic Albanians in the province, most of whom are Moslem, have been provided with financial and military support from Islamic countries. They are being bolstered by hundreds of Iranian fighters, or Mujahadeen, who infiltrate from nearby Albania and call themselves the Kosovo Liberation Army. U.S. defense officials say the support includes that of Osama bin Laden, the Saudi terrorist accused of masterminding the bombings of the U.S. embassies" in Africa.

Another Democratic presidential candidate, Rep. Dennis Kucinich, has tried to prohibit funding for the Kosovo Protection Corps (KPC), the successor to the KLA now being protected by U.N. troops as a result of the outcome of the conflict. Kucinich said an internal United Nations Report found the KPC responsible for violence, extortion, murder and torture.

After the war, Milosevic was ousted and put on trial, where he has been making the case in his own defense that Serb troops in Kosovo were fighting Muslim terrorists associated with bin Laden. At a hearing before the U.N. court trying him, he brandished an FBI document concerning al Qaeda-backed Muslim fighters in Kosovo.

<snip>

Clark’s presidential decision suggests that he believes the media will not ask him about supporting the same extremist Muslim forces in Kosovo that militarily attacked us on 9/11. He’s right: during interviews on ABC’s Good Morning America and the NBC Today show on September 17, the subject didn’t come up. Clark did say that he would not have gone to war with Iraq, and that he would have turned the matter over to the U.N. There was no "imminent threat" from Iraq, he claimed.

So where was the "imminent threat" to the U.S. from Yugoslavia? And why did the Clinton administration bypass the U.N. on that illegal war? Clark is counting on not hearing those questions from the same media going after Bush on Iraq. They are all worse than hypocrites.

http://www.aim.org/publications/weekly_column/2003/09/17.html


Here's a 1999 Egyptian article of interest that shows a few striking parallels between Iraq and Yugoslavia,

Al-Ahram Weekly
22 - 28 April 1999

Oiling the wheels of Pax Americana
By Gamal Nkrumah

As NATO's punishing air raids against Serbia enter their fourth week, Washington continues to insist that there is no imminent plan to deploy ground forces. Such assertions, however, should by now be taken with more than a pinch of salt. The Americans are clearly planning to tighten the screws even further on an already badly battered Yugoslav economy, and plans are afoot to strengthen the economic blockade. International oil prices may be lower than at any time in living memory, but the strategic nature of the present conflict should never be forgotten. At the heart of the war against Serbia lies the struggle to control black gold, and the principal routes along which the region's oil pipelines run hold the key to understanding the present Balkan crisis.

Washington wants to block deliveries of oil by sea to Yugoslavia. The New York Times reported this week that NATO supreme commander US Gen. Wesley Clark wants all oil shipments halted. "We are talking with our NATO allies about taking stricter action in order to limit the amount of oil that goes in," US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was quoted as saying in the Los Angeles Times.

<snip>

NATO this week announced that on Sunday it had destroyed the oil refinery at Pancevo. A petrochemical facility and nitrogen plant at the same site were also hit, and another refinery at Novi Sad was reportedly destroyed. But there are also signs of cracks in the Alliance over the strategy of hitting economic targets. American officials requested a plan to block sea shipments of oil at a closed meeting of allied delegates last week, but their French counterparts questioned the legal basis of the move, submitting that it would not be possible to stop and search ships in the Adriatic Sea without a specific resolution from the United Nations Security Council.

<snip>

Like the second Gulf War against Iraq, the latest NATO intervention is yet another military action undertaken to secure oil pipeline routes and oil profits, along with other miscellaneous strategic imperialist advantages connected with the Caspian Sea region. Between them, the Caspian region and the Middle East contain some three-quarters of the world's known reserves of petroleum. Washington, not unnaturally, favours the construction of oil pipelines from the Caspian westward across Turkey to the Balkans and southeastern Europe, at the expense of Russian interests. This week, the US denounced the dispatching of Russian surveillance ships to the Mediterranean as "not helpful." The war for Kosovo is thus being played out with all the awesome logic of a spaghetti western.

<snip>

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1999/426/in1.htm

====

===

Published on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
Was Gen. Clark Also "Unprepared" for the Postwar?
by Zoltan Grossman

<snip>

Second, the NATO bombing alienated Serbian civilians who had led the opposition to Milosevic. Cities that had voted heavily against Milosevic were among those targeted with bombing. U.S. jets dropped cluster bombs on a crowded marketplace in Nis. Civilian infrastructure, such as trains, busses, bridges, TV stations, civilian factories, hospitals and power plants, were repeatedly hit by NATO bombs. Depleted Uranium munitions left behind radioactive dust around targets, and bombed chemical plants released clouds of poisonous smoke. Estimates of civilian deaths in the bombing range from 500 to 2,000, with the Washington Post estimating 1,600 (a tally is at www.counterpunch.org/dead.html ) These civilian casualties are largely forgotten by those who feel that bombs dropped by a Democratic president are somehow more noble than those dropped by a Republican president.

The Serbian democratic opposition strongly condemned the bombing as undermining and delaying their efforts to oust President Milosevic, and as strengthening his police state. It was not the NATO bombing but Serbs' largely nonviolent revolution that overthrew Milosevic in October 2000, and replaced him with democratic leader Vojislav Kostunica, who had opposed NATO's war. In much the same way, many Iraqis who hated Saddam Hussein have criticized U.S. betrayals and sanctions--under both Bush and Clinton administrations--for strengthening Saddam's hand. Many of these same Sunnis and Shi'ites repressed by Saddam are today calling for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq, in order to regain their sovereignty.


<snip>

Like in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. interventions in ex-Yugoslavia left behind a new cluster of U.S. military bases, including the sprawling Camp Bondsteel in U.S. Sector Kosovo. Together, this string of permanent U.S. bases stretching from Hungary to Pakistan is creating a new U.S. "sphere of influence" in the strtegic region between the European Union and East Asia. General Clark was surely aware that the U.S. presence in Kosovo would not be temporary, and uses the prospect of ethnic instability to justify it, much as President Bush does to justify a long-term presence in Iraq. Earlier this year, as one of the slew of cable news "armchair generals" coldly assessed the advance of the Iraq invasion, Clark never challenged the underlying premise that the U.S. military should oust Saddam, rather than the Iraqi people, or that the U.S. should have a permanent presence in the Gulf region.

The 1999 Kosovo War had similar origins and outcomes as the 2003 Iraq War. In the 2004 election, do we face the hideous prospect of voting for one flawed war over another? Far from posing a "pragmatic" alternative to President Bush, Clark's ascendancy would be a failure for the peace movement that has made such advances in community organizing over the past year. In order not to alienate the large segment of the electorate energized by the movement, Democrats are well advised not to nominate a leader with blood on his hands.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0910-07.htm
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I admit I didn't read all of that
But can I ask you a simple question? Where were the PNAC'ers and the republicans, I don't remember them coming out for this little conflict. Why did the republicans in congress try to withhold support financial support for the Kosovo campaign?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. They were there
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 03:10 PM by Tinoire
They are the people Clark was talking about when he praised the PNACers in that March 2003 Salon interview and said they were a fine group of men with whom he would work again.

Doug Feith was up to his neck in the Yugoslavia adventure. It was his firm, Feith and Zell, that established the Bosnia Fund, into which wealthy Muslim countries deposited obscene sums of money to buy arms the Bosnians who were then trained by the US.

It was also Feith and Perle who worked with Clark on the Dayton Peace Talks & advised the Bosnian delegation.

It was the first step of the PNAC war without end. Problem is, we were sleeping. Check the Muslims papers and you'll see they had caught on to this already.

I am trying to find a quote I found last week about Wolfowitz and Clark pushing for the intervention in Yugoslavia over the objections of most politicians and the Pentagon because we had no UN support and it would have been totally illegal. It was a great quote- something about the entire world, edge of a catastrophe and I can't believe I lost it!

I will alo venture to guess that the Pentagon also realized that the intelligence was fabricated. If you want, I will dig up the information about the PR firm that was at the center of getting people all excited for this war... very similar to the Kuwaiti babies from the incubator stories.

My take on this from having followed these things for years is that the PNAC cancer is eating away at both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Our real enemy usn't the guy in the other party- it's the infected person in our own party, in both parties, screaming "war, war, war".

Give me a little while. Must go buy cigarettes and then will come back and hunt for that quote.

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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. Thanks...
I have much to read through on this stuff. I really need to educate myself on this war. Is intresting to see Kucinich tried to prohibit funding. :)
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. Does this mean you support ethic cleansing?
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OrAnarch Donating Member (433 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. Most definately,
Could you infer anything else from my post? I also eat children.
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batman Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. well the rethugs would use this snapshot so clark supporters should
get used to it
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. That is true
But Clark has gotten stronger and stronger at turning controversy surrounding his time at NATO to his advantage. He has learned how to reframe the questions, something he stumbled at more during the first month of his campaing. Lately Clark goes on the offensive immediately, expressing pride at preventing futher etnic cleansing in Europe. Then he contrasts his experience in winning a war with a true international coalition, after strenuous attmpts at Peace negotiations failed, with Bush's efforts in Iraq. It is becoming dangerous for Republicans to give Clark an opening to contrast his war record with Bush's.

As to the Shelton crowd, Clark has gotten to the point where he positively contrasts himself with the old failed military mind set of the past much like Dean contrasts himself with the old failed Democratic Party leadership mindset of the past. If Clark makes it through the primaries, in some ways he will have been helped by these early opportunities to practice his dueling.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. note the absence of the 4th grade response, "POOP"
Also note that this could never be used by Rove in the general election since it would be immediately countered by Rummy shaking hands w/ saddam.

Also note that his job was to try to convince people not to kill other people. He may have been trying to catch that fly w/ some honey, but it's naive tro think that both of them didn't know behind clark's smile was about 10 million tons of precision guided TNT.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. also note, the title to thread was changed to "meets"
before it referenced "friend", if I'm not mistaken.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. You are correct. n/t
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floridaguy Donating Member (751 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
24. Clark's leadership and his ability to admit a mistake
I guess this isn't considered inflammatory, so I will respond.

It is unquestioned that Clark was not the most popular general among Pentagon officials and other high-ranking military officials. That doesn't surprise me, since his Rhodes Scholar intelligence could easily rub some military commanders the wrong way.

It is also unquestioned that General Clark did not have the best relationship with Secretary Cohen and General Shelton. Both have already tried to discredit him. Unfortunately for them, I will insert the Department of Defense news briefing, whereby Cohen praises Clark as "one of our most brilliant officers" and calls his success in Kosovo "probably the best in U.S. military history".

Another thing you might be interested to learn, is that while serving as the NATO SACEUR, supreme allied commander, General Clark had obligations to both the US and to NATO. Of course the Pentagon really doesn't want NATO to get too big for it's britches. That would be like a rogue organization like the UN gaining more power. Wouldn't that just be terrible?

Secretary Cohen showed his true colors when he told Gen. Shelton to convey this message to Clark when it was determined that Clark was getting too much publicity. Tell him to get his "f___g face off the television" Shelton was happy to repeat this classless command.

As far as the hat and gift-exchanging with Mladic, General Clark has humbly said he made a mistake, and although it certainly didn't look good, it did no harm. How refreshing. A Presidential candidate who can admits that he makes mistakes, and can move on. I yearn for a candidate like that.

By the way, the Kosovo crisis is considered one of the most successful military operations in recent history, not only for the US but also for NATO, so it looks like the little hat thing didn't do too much, except create a little photo op.

This is an excerpt from an official transcript of the Department of Defense news briefing regarding General Clark and his contribution in Kosovo.


Monday, May 1, 2000
Presenter: Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen

(Also participating in the Joint Press Conference was Gen. Henry H. Shelton, Chairman, Joint Chief of Staff in Camp Bondsteel, Kosovo)
Q: This is General Clarke's last visit to Kosovo today. Any word on how he has performed his job?
Sec Def.: He has done an extraordinary job. General Clarke is one of our most brilliant officers. He undertook a mission that is perhaps one of the most complicated and complex and carried it out successfully. As I mentioned in my remarks, this air campaign was the most successful in the history of warfare. We had over 38,000 sorties that were flown. We had only two planes that were shot down and no pilots lost. That is a record that is unparalleled in the history of warfare. So, General Clarke and his entire staff and subordinates and all who participated deserve great credit.
Q: Why is he leaving office, then?
Sec Def.: He is leaving because we have General Ralston who will become the new SACEUR. We are now replacing many of our CINCs throughout the world.
Q: It is not a reflection on his performance?
Sec Def: No reflection at all. He has done an outstanding job as the Commander-in-Chief of U.S. Southern Command, and he did an outstanding job here as EUCOM Commander and also as SACEUR.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2000/t05022000_t501koso.html

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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
26. "Wes Clark meets with war criminal."
It was his job.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. Clark was on "meet the press"
and was shown this picture by Russert. Clark admitted it was a bad idea to accept the gifts and exchange hats.

Old news
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
31. oops
From the title, I thought this article was going to say he was looking in a mirror.
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November 2004 Donating Member (97 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. So you believe Clark is a war criminal?
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
36. How useful...
In a year when Bush is elected for the first time, remember how you wasted our time with this.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
39. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
:boring:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
49. That would be number 9...
http://www.clarkmyths.com/myth9.html

I love the smell of flamebait in the morning...
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
50. Clark should make his list of "pygmies" and "axis of evil" leaders so
everyone will know where he stands. Forget all of this sissy statesman stuff.
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
52. Is this fair? Probably not.
Will the picture be used far and wide in * commercials with inflammatory language and big red graphics about Clark's friendly relationship with TERRORISTS? I'm not saying it's fair but Rove is never, never, never fair and there's no way to get around photos like these and the videotapes in which Clark praises Bush and members of the regime. The fact that this kind of visual "evidence" exists will depress swing voter turnout for Clark as well as Dem turnout.

Unfortunately, there's no way to fight back effectively against this kind of thing which exists in ample measure. And Clark won't have the money to even begin to fight it should he win the nom because he's accepting matching funds.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. accepting matching funds
for the primaries, it does not limit his fundraising for the General Election.
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SayitAintSo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
57. Yawn ... more flame bait .....
The high incidence of anti Clark threads and posters may indicate that the Dean supporters are getting rather concerned it would seem ...

Just a thought .... :shrug:
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
58. Locking........
This is inflammatory.


DU Moderator
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